Sony 35 and Sony 3D | CineTechnica (http://blog.abelcine.com/2010/09/12/sony-35-and-sony-3d/)

What's interesting to me is the 35mm unit, which they say will be affordable. I'd love to have an affordable 35mm HD camera, like the F35, but how affordable can it be?

Also, 3D from Sony is very much welcome!

Heath

ps-If someone is already talking about this, sorry! I just saw it moments ago.

Affordable huh? We'll see....

Sony has a different viewpoint when it comes to "affordable."

price wise shouldn't be much higher than AF100, but you right, we'll see

Exactly--affordable might be $10,000 without the lens, or even higher. At that point, a RED ONE is a better idea, probably.

Heath

I think a RED is a lot more than $10,000. If Sony can get this camera under 10 grand (which is the rumor), and give it a nice codec, it sounds like a real winner. Still, the Panny AF100 is listed at $4,995.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sony has the EX 35mbps, 4:2:0 codec. XDCAM HD422 would be sweet, tho!

What I meant was, if it went higher, like $15,000, it wouldn't be worth it. I'd go RED ONE.

Heath

I have three questions regarding this 35mm camera. First, is this thing part of their NXCAM, HDCAM, XDCAM line? Secondly, to what media format does this thing record to, SXS, SDHC, SDHX, Hard Drive, Flash Drive? And finally, from the picture, this camera is not shoulder mounted so it looks like its meant to be handheld like the Z7 or EX1 but it looks too large and heavy. Any idea about the weight and dimensions of this camera?


Ozzy

The price of this new Sony will be announced early next year, so all we can do now is to speculate about it. I´ve heard a lot of rumors - almost everything between $8000 and $50000 -, but we can be pretty sure it will be much more expensive than the AF-100 for example. Everything else would be a surprise because it´s highly unlikely Sony will use a consumer codec like AVCHD. This filmlike camcorder is aimed more at the "real" pro market - against RED Epic and ARRI Alexa, I presume. So it should end up in the Sony "Digital Cinematography" league, above XDCAM and HDCAM, where even $20000 would qualify as "affordable". To answer Ozzy´s second question: It will record to SxS cards (which is almost the only thing we know for sure about this thing at the moment).

What I meant was, if it went higher, like $15,000, it wouldn't be worth it. I'd go RED ONE.

Heath

A Red is $25K in an unusable form. You need another @ $10K worth of bits and you still need lenses.

A Red is $25K in an unusable form. You need another @ $10K worth of bits and you still need lenses.

Agreed.
Heath, you say if the Sony got close to $15,000, the RED is better. How can you know this? We have almost no info on the Sony cam. Its codec, lens mounts, media storage, all are still a mystery to the public. The Sony could be an incredible camera when all is said and done. And it will retail for under $10,000, or so some have been told.
I wouldn't toss it out in favor of a RED just yet. It may offer way more bang for the buck.

I have three questions regarding this 35mm camera. First, is this thing part of their NXCAM, HDCAM, XDCAM line? Secondly, to what media format does this thing record to, SXS, SDHC, SDHX, Hard Drive, Flash Drive? And finally, from the picture, this camera is not shoulder mounted so it looks like its meant to be handheld like the Z7 or EX1 but it looks too large and heavy. Any idea about the weight and dimensions of this camera?



Keep in mind it's a digital cinema camera - not a camcorder, so even though it's got a similar form factor to the other you mention, it's designed to be used with stabilisers, tripods, jibs, dolly's etc and not handheld. Have you ever looked at a red one or even a 35mm cinema camera? They're basically just a box that you attach other stuff to.

I don't know if Sony has realeased any details yet on what codec/media it will use so it's too early to answer your other questions.

Good points all around. I guess I should watch what I say about RED, because I've never personally used the camera before. Those I know personally who have seem split down the middle on how the RED ONE really is. Plus, as you say, I'm looking at double what a $15,000 Sony 35mm sensor camera would cost (not including the costs of lenses, I'm guessing).

Given Sony's track record, and I'm a big fan of their cameras for the past six years, I'd say if the camera is going to be under $10,000 (without a lens), it will probably have the SxS technology. Compression will be higher than the F35, obviously, but it will be an affordable camera.

Heath

At the release of the PMW-500 in NYC, Sony mentioned the 35mm camera. To quote one of the Sony employees, "The camera will be under $50K". Not sure if that means with full kit or just the camera head. I think they are so early with the development of this camera they don't know.

Agreed.
Heath, you say if the Sony got close to $15,000, the RED is better. How can you know this? We have almost no info on the Sony cam. Its codec, lens mounts, media storage, all are still a mystery to the public. The Sony could be an incredible camera when all is said and done. And it will retail for under $10,000, or so some have been told.
I wouldn't toss it out in favor of a RED just yet. It may offer way more bang for the buck.

While I would agree about this in regard to the R1, when the S35 Scarlet comes out it will be a slightly different situation. I doubt very seriously the codec they release the Sony with will match REDcode RAW, and I'm willing to bet it wont resolve at 3k-4k. I doubt the sensor will even approach the capabilites of Mystrerium X.

Mind you, and this has alwasy been the arguemnt against Scarlet, as of right now it's not available. But from what has been going around the red forums, it looks like the Epic will beat this sony to market, and the S35 Scarlet will be close in tow. A shoot-ready scarlet package will likely retail at around $15k

Sony isn't known for having the best priced cameras in their class...in fact theyre usually the opposite.

Scarlet or Panny would still win out in my book either way.

I'm going to say, until RED puts out the Scarlet, which they're close to 2 years late on it (early 2009 is what they told us back at the 2008 NAB), let's not jump to conclusions.

As for Sony's pricing, they seem to be competitive, though I'd love to see the NX5U drop about $1000.

Heath

While I would agree about this in regard to the R1, when the S35 Scarlet comes out it will be a slightly different situation. I doubt very seriously the codec they release the Sony with will match REDcode RAW, and I'm willing to bet it wont resolve at 3k-4k. I doubt the sensor will even approach the capabilites of Mystrerium X.

Mind you, and this has alwasy been the arguemnt against Scarlet, as of right now it's not available. But from what has been going around the red forums, it looks like the Epic will beat this sony to market, and the S35 Scarlet will be close in tow. A shoot-ready scarlet package will likely retail at around $15k

Sony isn't known for having the best priced cameras in their class...in fact theyre usually the opposite.

Scarlet or Panny would still win out in my book either way.

Eh - Scarlet is still so much vaporware. I'm sorry, but until an actual Scarlet is available, I can't take any talk of their impending release seriously. We've heard that story over and over again for years now. It may someday be the best cam for the money - or it may be a big disappointment. Believe me, I was as excited as everybody else when RED announced the Scarlet. But, c'mon, how long will this be dragged along?

Right now, Panasonic and Sony have real, working, prototype large-sensor cameras that they've displayed to the world. That carries a lot more weight to me.

And as far as price, I think Sony is as competitive as any of the other camera makers. If they can deliver a near-RED for under 10 grand, that sounds like a winner to me.

Given the feature set shown with the button layout and the industrial design, I cannot see this camera as being a unit that competes with Red, let alone Alexa. This has all the visual cues of a camera under 10 grand, in my view.

Having looked at the Panasonic AF100 yesterday, they claim a December release and Jan Crittenden saying it's about 70% complete (so many buttons weren't working and no way to examine the menu), I can't help but think Sony's camera is also aimed at this market price point. The VG10 and nothing until 6 digit price? Sorry it doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, this will be a camera under $10K. Whether that's with or without certain attachment is anybody's guess but that would make sense as a base body price at least.

One should look how Sony marketing and development product release works for clues. There's some predictability to the pattern. Base mode comes out first and then it climbs the ladder. That was the pattern with their DV, HDV, EX series. It'll be the pattern with this as well IMHO. Basically the get people to buy quick at a low entry point and move up with new products.

Eh - Scarlet is still so much vaporware. I'm sorry, but until an actual Scarlet is available, I can't take any talk of their impending release seriously. We've heard that story over and over again for years now. It may someday be the best cam for the money - or it may be a big disappointment. Believe me, I was as excited as everybody else when RED announced the Scarlet. But, c'mon, how long will this be dragged along?

Right now, Panasonic and Sony have real, working, prototype large-sensor cameras that they've displayed to the world. That carries a lot more weight to me.

I agree that Scarlet had massive delays, but the product got a lot better too.
But I just want to say: RED isn't different in 'having working prototypes'. They already have some shots (a still) that was shot with a Scarlet prototype. They already have working Epic prototypes, even used on filmsets, which some Scarlet models are very much based upon. They're new software is already working (HDR). Etc.
I agree that they don't have a camera on the market yet, but Sony doesn't either. BOTH of the companies have working prototypes. Just wanted to defend RED a little bit here.

Mathieu is right. "Vaporware" is when a concept never gets off the drawing board. RED on the other hand has working prototypes and will be shipping soon. So can we please get back to the topic at hand -- that being the new Sony -- since this wasn't intended to be a discussion about anything else. Thanks in advance,

Still, the Panny AF100 is listed at $4,995.

WHOA. Where did you hear that the AF100 is listed at $4,995? That would be killer-awesome and somewhat unexpected (anything from $5995 to $5395 has been discussed that I've heard of.)

Looking at Abelcinetech, Bhphoto, etc. it shows as MSRP unannounced. Hope you've heard something different!

Chris, Abelcinetech has just announced it at $4995. So... Party on. :)

Very nice! I'd love to see Sony come back with that price point. Just 4-5 years ago, I was talking to a friend of mine about 35mm sensors one day coming to smaller HD cameras.

Heath

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Very nice! I'd love to see Sony come back with that price point.
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I would doubt that seeing as how the EX1 and EX3 are still over $6,000 and $8,000 respectively, which both still sell like hotcakes. Sony knows it can easily sell prosumer cameras at that price range, so I doubt they'd lowball their own prices.

I'm guesssing that when this camera comes out it will be in the EX3 price range, maybe a little higher.

Rick,

I think you're right about that. I'd still love to see the price at $5,000, but we'll see.

Heath

I'd love to see the price for a real full frame (not 4/3rds) camera under $10,000.

ALso, price comparison vs the EX1/EX3 isn't quite fair, it's a different camera with a different user.

Agree I would keep my EX with Nano and use the 35mm for a different client. Under 10K would be nice to see.

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it's a different camera with a different user.
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You're right in the sense that this camera wont make the EX series obsolete, as they will still appeal very much to Doc/Event/ENG professionals, to whom a 35mm sensor isnt practical. But right now, the EX series is also the hot prosumer camcorder for indie narrative film makers (aside from HDSLR cams, of course). It's what the HVX was a couple of years ago, and the DVX before that.

The new sony, the new panny, and, if it ever comes out, the 2/3" Scarlet will all be front runners in that same market.

I feel sorry for manufacturers of 35mm Lens adapters and HDSLR add-on systems. markets for both will likely go bye-bye within a year or two of those three cams getting released.

I am excited because the 35mm lenses will look better than ever, without having to use special adapters to get the image to fit properly on the sensor. Not to mention the problems with glass-in-front-of-glass.

I think the 35mm adapter manufacturers will do well, because users will likely save their money and keep their existing cameras, and just buy the adapter. Plus, the HDSLR support market is exploding. From what I understand, plenty of film students and grads are moving towards HDSLR because of their affordability and the lenses they can use.

Heath

i am very excited for this camera, though as the panasonic is coming close to release and at a good price, i am interested to see if this will be worth the extra value.

as for the other avenues, i dont think they are dead at all. i am caught because if i go for a big sensor camera, i limit myself to free lance jobs i may want to work on. i have an m2encore and it works well cause if i need to shoot an event, i can take it off and have a video camera, put it on for cinema style work. only downside is the weight and bulkyness of the setup which i would love to get rid of. as a film student, the hdslr route has always looked pleasing by price-image ratio, though i have not been sold on them.

i only hope sony releases information and estimate price before i buy an af100, cause if 7000cdn will be my af100, could be worth it to put the extra for a 35mm sensor. though it is very interesting how the sony rep stressed the word, "eeeaarrlllyyyy" 2011. i really do hope its sooner than their april 2011 estimate, it would make sense for them to push it due to the af100 release.

From what I heard or was mentioned at this year's NAB, this 35mm camera is supposed to be released before NAB 2011.

Sony 35 and Sony 3D | CineTechnica (http://blog.abelcine.com/2010/09/12/sony-35-and-sony-3d/)

What's interesting to me is the 35mm unit, which they say will be affordable. I'd love to have an affordable 35mm HD camera, like the F35, but how affordable can it be?

Also, 3D from Sony is very much welcome!

Heath

ps-If someone is already talking about this, sorry! I just saw it moments ago.


Heath,

Is it me or does the 35mm camera on your attached picture look like it lacks the mic holder on the side of the handle? Maybe it's concealed. But, I know there is suppose to be a mic holder. It was there when the camera was shown at NAB 2010.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/476636-sony-prototype-cinema-camera-shown-nab.html

Could be a newer prototype. I hadn't even noticed. If this camera is aimed at the film market and costs a lot more than we're speculating, maybe they won't bother with a mic holder, but I'd wager XLR inputs. That's just pure speculation on my part, of course.

Heath

i could have sworn this was shown here, but i guess not. sorry if it was, but here is a lot of footage on the camera, plus, XLR inputs. and also what i was talking about how the sony rep is really pushing early 2011.

MacVideo - Camera Technology - Features - Sony 35mm sensor and 3D camera prototypes on show at IBC 2010 (http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/features/index.cfm?articleId=3240098)

Very helpful Daniel thank you.

i could have sworn this was shown here, but i guess not. sorry if it was, but here is a lot of footage on the camera, plus, XLR inputs. and also what i was talking about how the sony rep is really pushing early 2011.

MacVideo - Camera Technology - Features - Sony 35mm sensor and 3D camera prototypes on show at IBC 2010 (http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/features/index.cfm?articleId=3240098)


I noticed that along with the talk about the new 35mm camera and 3D camera, alot of talk was made about the NEX-VG10. I wonder if Sony is gonna focus on these two new cams, or if they still might also release a pro version of the VG10.

Good link Daniel san.

We'll see what happens when the camera is released. I think the manufacturers have been taken aback at the uptake of DSLRs despite their many flaws, and are still trying to find their way. I do have a feeling though that the EX line may well be affected dramatically by this new camera.

Wow. Daniel thanks for the link to the video report. Pretty much seals it for me. I'm waiting for that Sony "film" camera to be released in early 2011 before making another camera purchase. I'll continue to use my Letus for DOF work until then.

Good link Daniel, thanks

It was particularly nice to see Bill Drummond show the VG10 with our PL to E mount adaptor.

My crystal ball sees a bifurcation in the market at the $5000-$10,000 end of the market. There will be large sensor interchangeable lens cameras and as well as small 3 chip fixed lens cameras.

The large sensor cameras will serve markets in "planned" production. The small sensor 3 chip cameras will be geared towards run and gun shooting. Of course there's overlap

thanks guys, i dont remember where i found it. it was so great to see more of the camera and some talk about it.

i am really hoping the sony will be under 10 000, thats really pushing my funds haha, but if it is might be worth it to wait instead of the af100; ive saved all year and really want to make this purchase worthwhile. if its early 2011, details and price point im hoping will be out at least by november, but who knows.

keep the info coming if anyone finds out something =]

I think the Sony 35mm camera shown at IBC will be at the higher end of affordable. Looking closely at it on the stand it was clearly constructed much more like a high end camera like the F35 than an EX. It looked to have an alloy outer body. There were lots of taped over holes and sockets. On the back there was some kind of door that was about the right size to cover two SxS slots. On the left side there is a rotary dial, this looks like the illuminated dial that the EX3 has, so I speculate that this is for frame rate control. The lens on the demo unit was a PL mount lens, but if you asked anyone from Sony they would not confirm that this is what the production unit would have. Interestingly on the top of the camera on the right side, where you would normally find the zoom rocker there was a large taped over hole about the size of a zoom rocker, so could there be planned provision of a zoom rocker? That would be unusual for a PL mount camera.
The word from Sony is that this camera will be out before NAB, possibly very early in the new year. I'm holding fire on any camera purchases until then as I think this will be the camera to get, however I fear it may be out of my price range, especially as I want two for 3D!

Thanks Alister for the info. This is the camera Sony employees in NYC said would be under $50K. They did not say if it would be body only or what else was included.

This is the camera Sony employees in NYC said would be under $50K

I find examining the market as interesting as the technology. Given the above, Sony looks to make a competing camera to their F23 meanwhile major network shows examine the use of Canon 5D in their productions (as hobbled as HDSLR is for that function).

I do find it hard to believe (although not impossible) that Sony will cede the market to Panasonic and Canon in the lower budget professional price range. This is especially odd since Sony has the VG10 in the consumer market.

Agree Craig it seems strange.

I am kicking this thread as things are heating up with the immanent release of the AF-100/101 and there are lots of us who have been sitting on the sidelines waiting for more information on Sony's full sensor offering in the pro DOF market.

I noted earlier today that the AF100/101 will perform overcranking all the way up to 60 FPS using 1080p.

Sony's being really tight lipped about what there camera will offer. No word on pricing yet, no word on HD-SDI specs. I look at the body of the camera and it tells me it's about a 8 to 10,000 dollar camera but I see the viewfinder on the 3D camera. If that one lands on the 35mm one that could kick things up another 5 grand or more (up to 12 grand if it requires a pro viewfinder).

I can't see Sony loosing sales by holding onto key information for much longer. Does anyone have more info on the product?

Well, I don't know if this is a good place for this for sure, or if it should go in area 51, but there is
this about the new Sony:
Sony PMW-Ex35 HD Cinematography Camera with PL Mount and Full HD 35mm image sensor (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=sony_pmw-ex35)

Hmmmm..... Essentially a EX1 with a 35 mm sensor.... great news if true and would be a real threat to the Panny AF100 if it had interchangable lenses, which it would seem to have.

Oh, I love a good fight!

At an estimated price of 12.500£ it is in my opinion no treat to the Panny AF100 at 3.400£.

Normally I do ENG type of work with my old and trusted F330, but next year I have some short film production coming up.
For that purpose I have been looking into buying a second camera.
As I am a one man band I have no economic room for several cameras at a price tag of more than 10.000£

The 35mm cameras is unusable for my normal work, whit their shallow dept of field.
For film production, SOME of the scenes would benefit from shallow dept op field.

The Panny is not what I am looking for, with its 8 bit SDI output and a sensor size making my Nikon FX lenses long.

If not something more suitable is coming up I think I will rather sell my 330 and buy a Sony PMW 350 and shoot the shallow dept of field scenes with some tele and iris wide open.

And no I will not go the DSLR way. With all its bit and pieces needed it will be as expensive as the new Sony and still have the moiré, aliasing and bad ergonomics.