Now we have PMW-320 , PMW-350 , PMW-500 for XDCAM EX Shoulder-Mount who give a 3 steps way for the XDCAM EX market and it give finally the 50 Mbs 4:2:2 in the Shoulder-Mount style.

But in the HandHeld we still limited to 35 Mbs 4:2:0 with the PMW-EX1R and the PMW-EX3 and even if these HandHeld camcorders are exellent i still think a 50 Mbs 4:2:2 HandHeld is needed.

I understand a HandHeld XDCAM EX camcorders at 50 Mbs 4:2:2 will be more expensive because of more quality in Optics Lenses and maybe a CCD instead of CMOS as sensors and lower batteries record duration.

My Workflow rely on HandHeld and this is a missing link for me but i request your opinion here , i have ask Sony for XDCAM EX at 50 Mbs 4:2:2 and got reply could be done if a market ask for , and we get PMW-500.

I will send another request to Sony but asking for an HandHeld 50 Mbs 4:2:2 XDCAM EX and put a link to this post so maybe if enough peoples join in it may make is way to the top at Sony Corporation.

I don't think you'd have CCDs, it'd be CMOS. And there's no reason the optics would need to be any better either. I think the only stumbling block might be that it might stop some people buying the more expensive cameras, so losing Sony some money.
But I think you're right, it might well happen, especially with Canon leading the way with a small 50 mb/s camera.
Steve

Daniel,

If 4:2:2 and 50Mbps in a hand-held is important to you, then you might want to take a look at the Canon XF305 and/or XF300. I've been shooting with a XF305 since the end of June and it's a nice camera.

There are a few downsides to the camera (primarily the 1/3" chips) but overall it is a winner and very comparable to an EX1R. It basically records the exact same XDCAM422 codec as the F800/700/500 and will fit in easily with your XDCAM workflow.

Doug,

Of course you are right about the Canon. I think one thing some people are interested in, is a camera that
combines that advantages of the EX-1R and the Canon XF 300 series. In other words, a EX-1R
that records 50Mbps 4:2:2 or a Canon XF 305 that has 1/2 chips. Of course, us consumers always
want more and are never satisfied :-)

However, it wouldn't surprise me if it happens before too long. The tech is always getting better,
and if the price was right, I'd certainly buy one. Of course with the announcement of two new small
recorders at IBC, there are now 2 more options joining the nano to get exactly this out of an EX-1.
Which is one reason I like the EX series so much. You can always add on an external recorder
to record a better codec (the Ki Pro mini is even 10 bit I think). However, you cannot change the
size of the chips in the camera once you buy one. So to the original poster, if you need a 50Mbps 4:2:2
codec and want the 1/2 chips right now, you can get an EX-1R and add an external recording solution.

I got a brief reply from somebody at Sony a few hours after having made my request by e-mail including a link to this post thread so i will resume the reply and cant say the person name working at Sony.

PMW-500 XDCAM EX is see as an addition to the actual XDCAM HD Line-Up in fact a complement to it so users can use XDCAM HD in Optical Disc or Memory Card types of media , Its XDCAM HD on SxS Cards.

My contact at Sony said the Form Factor limit in the actual technological state the possibility of putting a Better Imager who will require More Power from Actual Battery limiting negatively the duration.

Also the increase datarate will increase the transfert time and decrease the recording time and this is see as having negative impact with limited increase picture quality , Sony has no plan for 50 Mbs 4:2:2 HandHeld.

I feel my request still make sense even if Sony seem to see it otherwise , what do you think about the reply is Sony serious about Form Factor limitation , Battery Power , Sensor Size , Transfer Speed , ect.

Do you think they will ignore our request or are just getting tired of us asking for the best in a smaller package and refusing to buy in the traditional Shoulder-Mount form factor expensive or not.

Thank-you guys hope you are not bug by my questions on the future we want for XDCAM EX as much as i ask about why it is possible or not and if you will feedback Sony on your side if possible ....

I put it to Sony that by not including it, at least as an option, they are just allowing money to flow to Convergent Designs instead of them. The Nanoflash is also a hassle to strap onto the camera.

So, whilst we're at it, let's see some expansion cards to take the PMW350 & 500 to 100MBps please Sony.

I don't think the EX1/3 have expansion slots (is that the correct name) do they?

The tech is always getting better,


It's never been about the tech, it's always been marketing strategy and still is.
The ability to put the 50 mb/s codec in the EX cameras would be so easy, the Nano and now the Canon have shown this, they just don't want to make them too good at this pricepoint. But they are being made to look a bit silly now with people simply bypassing their whole in-camera recording!
Steve

Something will have to change in the near future. Cameras like the 500 are amazing pieces of technology, but gear isn't lasting as long anymore. Not like it used to. Yet the prices are staying the same despite often having to upgrade for features that should have been on cameras to begin with.

Take the 50fps 1080p capability of the Panasonic AF100. That will change things now. Nobody will want a camera that needs to go to 720p for off speed recording in that same camera price range again. The fact that the AF100 also has simultaneous HD-SDI and HDMI output means that Sony are really going to need to push the boat out for the next EX replacement.

I'm not sure if 50Mb/s is on the cards, but it should be. A camera with large chips (or chip) like the AF100, but in a body like the JVC 700 with at least a 50Mb/s codec would pretty much do all duties needed. But I think that things will become messier before they become better. I don't think even the manufacturers know where things are heading, or indeed where they should head, because the quality at the lower end is becoming so high.

Maybe the differential in tiers will come with SR style codecs, or Red RAW style codecs being commonplace on mid to high end cameras, and perhaps much higher overcranking abilities (like 200fps) to help keep those market segments going. The low end will then become 50Mb/s 4:2:2, basic 60fps overcrank abilities at 1080p (and perhaps 60p at 1080 later on).

A bread and butter camera shouldn't cost £25k and up any more.

I agree, something has to change as they just flat out will not get people paying $25-$35 for a camera with a fear of it being surpassed in a year or two.

The veil is off. We in the community have see stellar video images from $6,000 and under pieces of gear. I just don't have the shear respect for the top of the line anymore because it is all so muddy right now and so many people on the client end just can not see the difference. Or even have Blu-ray yet.

Yes something has to change. I still don't understand why interchangeable lens cameras need to cost double the price of their sister fixed lens models. EX-1 - PMW-320. With the same chipset just a larger body, why is the price twice as much? Why not a fixed lens larger camera body then?

I agree with the fact the Camcorders are keep at artificial hight price but as long as users accept to pay it why would they change the price structure .... unless users start to use cheaper options if available.

But my biggest frustration is not about the price but the fact they allways tell you bigger is better and that is the reasons why it is not possible to do it in smaller form factor.

Everything around us get is size shrink: Television Screen , Cell Phone , Media Player , Computer and more , all thing around us evolve to get better in smaller package exept in Pro Camcorders.

Sony and others should do research to get better in the small form factor but because of marketing perception only Shoulder-Mount get the support but this is not the fault of Sony only guys.

Many of us where seeing HandHeld as Prosumers toys not so long ago and a 2 year ago a Post-Production House tell me they dont accept below 50 Mbs 4:2:2 to avoid to get flood by the average Prosumers Crowd in rude words.

Back to my point guys , XDCAM EX 50 Mbs 4:2:2 is possible to do in HandHeld by Sony so i dont request an impossible product at all , Sony said we listen as their new Mantra ... so let them ear our request.

Well the market as I percieve it can be divided into two categories, Large broadcast and everybody else. The large broadcast customers are or have been the bulk of the camera maker's business. The markups are very high and the broadcasters pay it because they need the ultra reliability and also the service. Well the service fleets from Sony & Panasonic are being diminished year by year. They are expensive to run. The entire industry is getting the life sucked out of it in many ways.

So I guess what I am saying is I think you will get what you want but it might take some time for the natural progression to take place. I think there is a shift to cater more to the "other" non-broadcast customers because they are growing in numbers.

About small cameras. I think the EX-1 and the new Canon XF-305 are pretty amazing cameras for their price. In many ways you already have products that fit the bill. The EX-1 will not get 50mbps 4:2:2 until the more expensive cameras get it. I don't know if the PMW-350 or 320 can be upgraded or if a new model needs to be created. If you add a Nanoflash the EX-1 is that camera and probably not that far off what Sony would sell the EX-(2) for.

Although small form factors are more difficult due to the bain of the electronics industry, heat. The smaller spaces just make it more difficult to perform a lot of processing and not overheat. CMOS has helped this but this fact does keep high quality cameras larger.

Patience. The camera makers have actually been quite nimble since the HD era started. Moreso than in the past. They know the entire story but they have to keep their business objectives in mind.

The Nanoflash is also a hassle to strap onto the camera.

Sorry Mike, but I totally disagree with you. I had my Nano mounted on my EX3 very easily and now on the back of my PMW-350. Very easy to mount & remove. Many mounting solutions available.

The only downside is that I have to physically move around the back of my 350 to see the NF screen, sometimes that can be an issue.

Sorry Mike, but I totally disagree with you. I had my Nano mounted on my EX3 very easily and now on the back of my PMW-350. Very easy to mount & remove. Many mounting solutions available.

The only downside is that I have to physically move around the back of my 350 to see the NF screen, sometimes that can be an issue.

So it does present some hassle then. It is one extra thing to get knocked, unplugged, draw power etc.

My point was I would rather buy an internal card for the 350, which wouldn't hinder the ergonomics at all. Sony are loosing money as sales of such items are instead going to Convergent Designs.

Mike,

Sony have their (growing) camera structure and obviously they are sticking to it, contrary to our opinions & wish lists. Convergent Design saw a niche, a gap and they jumped in and filled it.

No, it is not a hassle at all having my NF mounted on the back of my 350. I'm rather proud of the combo and the dual record facility is great.

Best wishes

In some respects I'd like to see recording separate from the camera. Like buying a battery system, have an industry standard clip on mount on the back. I know that to some this might be a pain as it is an additional cost, but like batteries the system could be moved from camera to camera. And lets face it, a lot of people are getting used to doing this anyway with their NanoFlash systems. So you'd have the up front cost of a recording device once. And if the quality and bitrate is high enough it should last a fair few years and through multiple cameras.

Even if this doesn't happen, the cat is now out of the bag now that Canon have put 50Mb/s on their cameras. I see the lower bitrates as a legacy of the past when tape could only cope with a certain rate. These days with storage being so cheap and cards being so fast, there isn't an excuse not to have 50Mb/s as a minimum spec. Even more so given a lot of the broadcasters requirements for HD.

Almost looks like it should go full circle, back to the days when you had camera head and dockable recorders. Maybe that'd be the sensible thing for Sony and Panasonic to do, make the body with an open slot where the tape door used to be and you can then slide in a module that will either give 35 mb/s, 50 mb/s or 100 mb/s, or one with XDCam discs, or even one with HDCam SR 4:4:4 1080/60P. They're already going modular by selling the camera without a VF so why not without a recording mechanism.
Here's my Sony product line-up:

1/2" CMOS camera head £5,000
2/3" CMOS camera head £7,000
2/3" CCD camera head £10,000
35 mb/s SxS unit £1,500
50 mb/s SxS unit £2,500
100 mb/s SxS unit £4,000
ProRes HQ SxS unit £3,500

All fully interchangeable, so pick your body, your viewfinder and your back then add a lens and a battery pack and you're away. Makes future upgrades easier too.

Anyone up for that?

Steve

David,

Please can you post pics of how you have it mounted, maybe I'm overestimating the annoyance it would cause me. I'm often taking the camera in and out of the portabrace and worry it may be ripped off or a cable snagged etc. It may be because a lot of my shooting is run and gun that I am particularly impatient with any ergonomic compromise.

CD, if you are reading, any plans for a flat version to fit between battery and camera body with option of AB or V Lock plates? That would be great!

All fully interchangeable, so pick your body, your viewfinder and your back then add a lens and a battery pack and you're away. Makes future upgrades easier too.

Anyone up for that?
Steve - with common sense like that, I'd like to see you standing for parliament..... :-) (I'd add an HDCAM SR module as well though.)

I was going to add HDCam SR but I think if you try to accomodate tape or even XDCam disc units it'll start to get a bit bulky. But, HDCam SR is supposed to be getting a card system I believe - there is an upgrade path for the SRW9000, so yes, we can have a 4:4:4 HDCam SR 1080/60P option at £10,000! And might as well have uncompressed RAW option too, a la RED.

Steve

...don't forget the "other" high end recording system for it all...the Cinedeck...

Almost looks like it should go full circle, back to the days when you had camera head and dockable recorders. Maybe that'd be the sensible thing for Sony and Panasonic to do, make the body with an open slot where the tape door used to be and you can then slide in a module that will either give 35 mb/s, 50 mb/s or 100 mb/s, or one with XDCam discs, or even one with HDCam SR 4:4:4 1080/60P. They're already going modular by selling the camera without a VF so why not without a recording mechanism.
Here's my Sony product line-up:

1/2" CMOS camera head £5,000
2/3" CMOS camera head £7,000
2/3" CCD camera head £10,000
35 mb/s SxS unit £1,500
50 mb/s SxS unit £2,500
100 mb/s SxS unit £4,000
ProRes HQ SxS unit £3,500

All fully interchangeable, so pick your body, your viewfinder and your back then add a lens and a battery pack and you're away. Makes future upgrades easier too.

Anyone up for that?

Steve

Wow, that is an awesome idea. In fact, it makes so much sense, there is probably no way they
will actually ever do it :-)

I was going to add HDCam SR but I think if you try to accomodate tape or even XDCam disc units it'll start to get a bit bulky.
Sorry Steve, I did mean a module recording the same data stream as HDCAM SR, but onto SxS, not a tape unit as such. SxS should be easily capable of doing it (though the no of minutes per card may be limited!), but the theory might be that anyone who wants it can afford enough cards!

Yes, and of course SR is a competitor to 35mm film and so you should be used to 5 minute rolls!
Steve

I think the EX1 could simply be a blip where Sony were worried about the Red being made cheaply and selling to the masses. The EX1 with its 10 bit HD out is sort of a freak own goal but you still have to go that extra step for a 10 bit recorder or nanoflash to get the convenient pro 50mbs err required by broadcasters..

Personally I cant see a difference with the 35mb footage and the Nano footage. Already new prosumer cameras are once again marking out professional equipment from the public arena.

IMHO I think the EX1/3 are one offs at least for a while yet.

Mark

The SR media is called SR-Memory. I can't remember the figures but it's capable of something like 2.5Gb/s. Apparently it won't be all that much more than SxS as it uses a clever controller that allows lower cost memory chips to be used.

We had a few discussions about the idea of dockable cameras and recorders at IBC. The consensus was that it makes sense, but the recording section of a solid state camera is so small anyway that removing it, would not significantly reduce the size of the camera. What's really needed is to get production companies to become less tied into any one format. After all it's not like the old tape days where you needed expensive decks to be able to edit. Now all you need is a card adapter and a PC to handle a huge range of formats.

By the way, the SxS controller in the new SxS-1 cards has been updated to allow 1.2Gb/s transfers.

It's not just production companies that need to understand the new workflows. The broadcasters still insist on particular tape formats. I was/am hoping that an approved camera head combined with a Nanoflash producing MXF or Mov files will be accepted as standard soon.

I think Steve P has a great logical idea. We cannot go on buying cameras that are out of date within in a year or two. Clients will not pay the rates that need to be charged to cover kit that has to be replaced in a short space of time.

But I'm not sure clients care what kit you are using (hence why pay more?). No one is obligated to replace there EX1/EX3/PMW-350 etc when Sony brings out there latest and greatest. Of course everyone here wants to.... its why Sony has a marketing department. Of course you might have t replace your EX1/EX3 because they are not very rugged and damage easily in the field, but then they are sold at that pricepoint.

Back to the OPs point - it woud be nice but there are options, Nanoflash probably being the best of them, not sure about the canons because I haven't put hands on one.

Of course you might have t replace your EX1/EX3 because they are not very rugged and damage easily in the field, but then they are sold at that pricepoint.

Others experiences may be different, but I've put my EX1 through hell and back multiple times and it keeps on working. I've dropped it 3 times from 4-5' onto concrete, free fall, smack on the concrete. Each time I thought it was a goner (one time it fell I had to reattach the lcd but I did it myself and it's fine). I also got it wet three times (twice by waves) and recently I was shooting in a salt water pool and the underwater housing failed and completely filled the housing. I was recording at the time, powered up. I poured out all the water, let it dry in the hot sun for a day, I just knew it was toast... but it fired up and I'm shooting with it now, gorgeous image. I've found my EX1 to be shockingly sturdy, nigh unbreakable. I have no idea how it's still working. I'm afraid to take it in to the service center, ha! I'm tough on my gear. I'm not afraid to publicly say what it's gone through because I don't ever plan on selling it.

Okay, back to the regularly scheduled subject.

Almost looks like it should go full circle, back to the days when you had camera head and dockable recorders. Maybe that'd be the sensible thing for Sony and Panasonic to do, make the body with an open slot where the tape door used to be and you can then slide in a module that will either give 35 mb/s, 50 mb/s or 100 mb/s, or one with XDCam discs, or even one with HDCam SR 4:4:4 1080/60P. They're already going modular by selling the camera without a VF so why not without a recording mechanism.
Here's my Sony product line-up:

1/2" CMOS camera head £5,000
2/3" CMOS camera head £7,000
2/3" CCD camera head £10,000
35 mb/s SxS unit £1,500
50 mb/s SxS unit £2,500
100 mb/s SxS unit £4,000
ProRes HQ SxS unit £3,500

All fully interchangeable, so pick your body, your viewfinder and your back then add a lens and a battery pack and you're away. Makes future upgrades easier too.

Anyone up for that?

Steve
that would be truly fantastic
too bad they probably wont ,just because we would like it

But I'm not sure clients care what kit you are using (hence why pay more?).

They do. Look at the approved lists for BBC and Discovery etc., there are some cameras that are allowed and some that aren't, and the goalposts do keep moving. The EX cameras are not accepted for full HD programmes by the BBC due to the codec. Even the legendary Varicam is losing favour due to being 720 and only hangs on because we don't have a 1080 slow motion camera readily available yet. This was even the case in SD days where a lot of jobs required a DigiBeta and DVCam was just not acceptable.
The chips seem to be at a decent level now - we have full raster 1080 chips, cheap CMOS ones and expensive CCD ones, you can take you pick when you buy them. The add on recorders could then be chosen depening on the client (as they are already with the likes of the Nanoflash).

Steve

I agree with Steve the client most debility cares what kit you use. Most of my high-end clients specify the kit.

Steve it would be great to have the camera modular but we are talking about manufactures, we have to remember they are not in it to give us the best product, they are in it to make money period. At least Red has the idea now, if they every really make it happen for a full line or if it is just marketing hype we will have to see.

One important factor to me in addition of having 50 Mbs 4:2:2 HandHeld XDCAM EX is the fact an HandHeld can be use HandHeld or Shoulder-Mount with some attach on done.

A Shoulder-Mount cant do that so the freedom of an HandHeld camcorder is important but it should not mean lower picture quality when technology permit to reach same or so close quality.

I have found here a very informative groups of point of view so it should indicate that i am not alone of finding artificial limitation in HandHeld not acceptable in users point of view.

Daniel you might want to at least check out the Canon. I did get a chance to play with one and the picture is very nice. Now the chip size is a factor so for me to get rid of my EX and Nano for a Canon would not happen. I still think for hand held the EX/Nano is the best combination on the market to get 50Mb/s and up with 422.

Paul, are you tempted by the Ki Pro Mini?
Steve

Steve, after our last conversation I checked it out and the Ki Pro Mini looks very nice. If I did not have a Nano I would test one out. But to sell the Nano and go with the Ki Pro Mini just does not make sense to me.

What are your thoughts? Do you own a Nano or a Ki Pro Mini?

I don't have either and I think both look good, and get the feeling that it'll little workflow or compatibility things which sway people in one direction or the other.
Steve

Agree workflow should be considered. I have been happy with XDCAM HD 50Mb/s 422 but then again if I am mixing bit rates and formats I always use Prores HQ.

I am sure I will take a good look at the Ki Pro when it comes out.

Nano vs Aja: check out my feature and price comparison in the Nano vs Mini thread. Essentially, the XDCAM 50Mb is equivalent in IQ to the Pro Res 422 @ 220Mb - this is an educated guess based on how well the XDCAM 35Mb does against Pro Res in Mike Marriage's test. However, due to Pro Res using more than 4 times the storage space, the Aja is actually more expensive when adding in CF cards with equal recording times in both.

And according to Alister and others much smarter than me, recording 10bit with the EX1/3 doesn't really add anything to picture IQ due to how much noise these cams have.

Plus, the 50Mb XDCAM can be backed up to optical disk and takes up far less space. Furthermore, the Aja tops out at 220Mb whereas the Nano's 100Mb L-GOP is higher quality than anything from the Aja and you can keep going higher with the Nano.

And since the Aja does not support hot-swap, the Pro Res HQ @ 220Mb/s allows much less continuous recording than the Nano.

Not sure I agree with all of that Steve, but your opinions are as valid as mine.
I know tests on ProRes HQ have been done that show it's virtually indistinguishable from uncompressed, so that must make it ahead of XDCam 50 mb/s surely? Also it's an I frame and more robust through post, this is why a lot of long GOP stuff is transcoded to ProRes - and going from XDCam to ProRes is going to lose some quality in the transcode I assume. This is why some folks prefer the direct ProRes route from the Ki.
It's a tough call and I've said before I think both are more than up to virtually any broadcast use most people could have.
Also, price-wise, interestingly the best prices I have been given in the UK are Nano £1,995 and Ki Pro Mini £1,565, not much in it really.
Steve

Maybe we should move this to a different thread?

Steve K, I agree XDCAM Long GOP at 100Mb/s 422 is about the same as the I-Frame 220Mb/s on the Nano. We did days of testing this prior to shoots last year. But is the Ki Pro the same codec?

Alister point is interesting it would be great to see test where this has been proven. I also agree with Steve P it really does not matter at this level. Both of these units fit the highest broadcast requirements, so it really comes down to the editors workflow.

For me I am very happy with my Nano it has never failed me in some tough conditions. Besides CD support is first class and I have really enjoyed all my contact with Dan and Mike. But that should never stop us from keeping our eyes open to new product.

Does anyone know when the Ki Pro mini will become available in the UK?

Mark

After having look at all your options this is what i think about it but it is only my opinion guys :

1- Best solution Sony see the light and we get an XDCAM EX HandHeld 50 Mbs / 4:2:2.

2- Accept Canon as an alternative to Sony for 50 Mbs / 4:2:2 (But Sony for me will be better).

3-Capitulate and add an external device to get 50 Mbs / 4:2:2 to my actual Sony PMW-EX1.

Still dream of a XDCAM EX HandHeld from Sony 1/2 Inch CCD or CMOS 50 Mbs 4:2:2.

Call this an Hate and Love relationship from Me with Sony ....

The SR media is called SR-Memory. I can't remember the figures but it's capable of something like 2.5Gb/s. Apparently it won't be all that much more than SxS as it uses a clever controller that allows lower cost memory chips to be used. ...

5Gb/s & 1TB storage.