Bumped into this today:

Atomos - Enter The Ninja (http://atomos.com)

Less than $800 Euros seem to buy a portable HDMI recorder into ProRes codec.

What do you think regarding 7D video out and this box?

You can't record a clean signal out of the 7D HDMI port. Waste of money for that purpose...

Ugh, I know, it's frustrating. If it did, I would seriously consider getting something like this...

Well they are clearly advertising the recording of HDMI output from HDDSLR cameras.
I know of no current HDDSLR camera that has an HDMI output that would be usable for this device and final production.

the 7d output is hd
and if you don't push record on your 5d mark 2 the signal out put stay at hd

so the chance is thatr it can be done

my Q is how you handle monitoring?

the 7d output is hd
and if you don't push record on your 5d mark 2 the signal out put stay at hd

so the chance is thatr it can be done

my Q is how you handle monitoring?

Let me say it again...

NONE of the current crop of DSLRs, Canon or otherwise, can output a clean HD signal over HDMI. if they did, you wouldn't have Shane Hurlbut, Rodney Charters, and other guys who have $100k recorders at their disposal, recording the native codec onto CompactFlash cards.

It's just not possible yet.

a clean HD signal over HDMI

Perrone, how's current signal "not clean"?

Thanks.

The monitored image is both letterboxed and pillarboxed within the HD frame, so the frame size is smaller than HD. You could theoretically capture it and blow it up but what would be the point.

Charles, I have 7D and that's what it looks like. Just wanted to clarify.

Out of curiosity - same with 5D Mk II (before you hit Rec), or not?

yes, Live View is the same on all three Canons--on the 5D it drops the output resolution to SD when you hit record.

... and I assume USB connection to EOS utility does not have enough bandwidth to capture HD video without dropping frames, either?

OT ...but it would be awesome on a Sony V1 which i believe does output uncompressed HD from its HDMI out in real-time!!!??

Sony Z5/Z7 do to, I think?

And Sony makes its own tapeless recorder, but maybe not as small and cool looking like the one I linked to.

Then again, there's realiability...

OT... Alex, unless ive been asleep i think the sony tapeless solutions capture M2T hdv files, and NOT uncompressed HD to apple prores 422 HiQu, which is what the ninja apparently says it will do - this would be phenomenal! (if it was converting hdv files to prores i would be less excited).
sc

I'm going to put on my flame-retardant suit and claim that the difference between the footage captured into Sony MPEG2 HDV Codec vs. Apple ProRes will not be noticeable under virtually all of the practical shooting situations. Even at 35Mps, Sony codec has no detectable motion artifacts. The main difference *may* be in the red bleeds in favor of ProRes, but not at normal viewing - you'll have to zoom 3x or more to see it.

Having said that, the EU unit looks kinda sexy.

I'm going to put on my flame-retardant suit and claim that the difference between the footage captured into Sony MPEG2 HDV Codec vs. Apple ProRes will not be noticeable under virtually all of the practical shooting situations.

Having said that, the EU unit looks kinda sexy.

No need for flame retardant suit ; ) I somewhat agree but if you are doing serious grading of keying you will notice a massive diff.

Clearly. But, for serious grading in post, who would start by acquiring images in 7D to begin with?

I capture directly into Cineform RAW at high quality settings (Q3, Q4 which corresponds to FilmScan 1 and up) with my SI2K cam.

Clearly. But, for serious grading in post, who would start by acquiring images in 7D to begin with?

I capture directly into Cineform RAW at high quality settings (Q3, Q4 which corresponds to FilmScan 1 and up) with my SI2K cam.

Because not everyone has $50,000 to blow on a camera.

True that. I only could afford SI2K+lenses after a successful, nicely $$$'d Smithsonian's project.

As always is the case with the gear, you pay 95% of the price for the top 5% of the quality.

However, I do use Canon 7D as second cam extensively, and am very happy with it. Just don't rely on it for keying or extensive CC.

(BTW, SI2K Mini is not $50K, it's way less expensive, but after the glass, rigs, monitoring, capture PC, and audio, you will get to the $50K mark, yes.)

I'm going to put on my flame-retardant suit and claim that the difference between the footage captured into Sony MPEG2 HDV Codec vs. Apple ProRes will not be noticeable under virtually all of the practical shooting situations. Even at 35Mps, Sony codec has no detectable motion artifacts. The main difference *may* be in the red bleeds in favor of ProRes, but not at normal viewing - you'll have to zoom 3x or more to see it.

Having said that, the EU unit looks kinda sexy.

Hi Alex

No flaming here, but would appreciate your clarification. Are you suggesting that HDV recorded onto miniDV tape by a Sony V1 would be the same quality as an uncompressed signal from a V1 output via HDMI and captured as ProRes by something like a Atomos?

I'd always assumed that the V1 was a great little camera only handicapped by the format it recorded(HDV)...

Cheers, Simon

In short, yes (for almost all purposes with TV as delivery media.)

HDV is a very good format, with better compression than now-popular AVCHD (especially if we are talking Sony HDV compression algorithm. Now, granted, HDV is 1440, so you WILL see a bit of a resolution loss... but read on for other quality factors that may be even more important.)

So motion artifacts will show much less in HDV footage.

With V1/Z5/Z7 the main quality limiting factor IMHO would be the lens and the latitude of its sensor, so if you capture into ProRes even before in-cam compression, the quality difference will be very minimal.

Actually I did this same trick four years ago with another Sony cams, FX1/Z1. At the time there was much debate whether their component analog out is true HD and uncompressed. It was proven that yes it was; but I was the first person AFAIK to actually build a rig to capture that signal into uncompressed AVI on location. Caused quite a stir, with Sony calling me etc.

Result? Very little practical improvement over in-camera signal.

Having said that, V1U/Z5U/Z7U (http://amzn.to/bOV7Kq) deliver fantastic image quality with in-cam recording for controlled situations like indoor talking heads closeups. IMO, you could easily use it as 2nd cam with ANY other first cam. But then again, there is Canon 7D (which is limited by 12min recording length at a time though...)

The monitored image is both letterboxed and pillarboxed within the HD frame, so the frame size is smaller than HD. You could theoretically capture it and blow it up but what would be the point.

And that's what I thought. But....

There is a guy who says he routinely uses 7Ds on jibs and for live switched recordings, by feeding their HDMI out to SDI switchers.

If so, signal must be at least acceptable that way??

Bob certainly is enthusiastic but I noticed a number of posts in there that required clarification from others--he seems fond of tossing out enticing nuggets. Sounds like they are making a line cut to use as reference for the final cut later, although without matching time code it doesn't seem much worth it. No voodoo there, they are seeing the same reduced size output from their 7D's as everyone else.

But it was, uh, interesting learning about the specs of the 1DSMKIV in his last post.

I suppose if I put 7D on a jib, I'd run two cables: one HDMI, one USB.

USB to EOS utility would allow me to control all the settings and start/stop recording. Recording would happen in-camera on the CF card though.

HDMI would be for monitoring only (I don't think you can effectively do that solely over EOS Live View with video signal.)

What do you think.

Bob certainly is enthusiastic

Here's another enthusiastic (premonistic?) dude, I quote: "I've just preordered the Atomos Ninja HDMI recorder because I know for a fact that the new generation of DSLR/Camcorders are going to pump out a full raster 1080 signal and I can simply bypass the need for on camera recording. "

Source: 5DtoRGB test comparison with MPEG Streamclip on Vimeo (http://bit.ly/aUTiX3)

Well, it's going to happen eventually of course--the question is when. I mean, I even have some insider knowledge on this but I wouldn't bother announcing it--every spec and deadline is subject to change. What's the point?

Some people will crow about their message-board predictions that materialize ("See, I called it") but few will admit to their misses. Lot of RED fans with egg on their faces at the moment, I think.

It is also likely that, together with the unhindered HDMI-out, other changes may be introduced... such as better in-cam codec... so capturing to the external device would be a moot point...

Speaking of premonitions. Is there such thing as aftermonition?

In short, yes (for almost all purposes with TV as delivery media.)

HDV is a very good format, with better compression than now-popular AVCHD (especially if we are talking Sony HDV compression algorithm. Now, granted, HDV is 1440, so you WILL see a bit of a resolution loss... but read on for other quality factors that may be even more important.)

So motion artifacts will show much less in HDV footage.

With V1/Z5/Z7 the main quality limiting factor IMHO would be the lens and the latitude of its sensor, so if you capture into ProRes even before in-cam compression, the quality difference will be very minimal.

Actually I did this same trick four years ago with another Sony cams, FX1/Z1. At the time there was much debate whether their component analog out is true HD and uncompressed. It was proven that yes it was; but I was the first person AFAIK to actually build a rig to capture that signal into uncompressed AVI on location. Caused quite a stir, with Sony calling me etc.

Result? Very little practical improvement over in-camera signal.

Having said that, V1U/Z5U/Z7U (http://amzn.to/bOV7Kq) deliver fantastic image quality with in-cam recording for controlled situations like indoor talking heads closeups. IMO, you could easily use it as 2nd cam with ANY other first cam. But then again, there is Canon 7D (which is limited by 12min recording length at a time though...)

Interesting stuff Alex, thanks for the detailed response

The monitored image is both letterboxed and pillarboxed within the HD frame, so the frame size is smaller than HD. You could theoretically capture it and blow it up but what would be the point.

Charles, is there a way to get rid of the letterbox or the pillabox? I am wasting about 25% of my monitor's resolution because of this annoying fact. Also, is there a way to remove the AF point box? I can't find a way to do it.

Their website is claiming that the Vimeo video was shot on a 7D?

Charles, is there a way to get rid of the letterbox or the pillabox? I am wasting about 25% of my monitor's resolution because of this annoying fact. Also, is there a way to remove the AF point box? I can't find a way to do it.

Nope on letterbox or pillarbox. Full-rez HDMI output is one of the features that everyone who uses these cameras are eager to see (and by eager I mean rabid!)

The AF box can't be removed during preview, but it goes away when you hit record. Most of the time I move it down to the bottom of the screen where it isn't in the way (it's almost completely out of the picture area).

The AF box can't be removed during preview, but it goes away when you hit record.

I believe if you have an auto focus lens attached, and auto focus is set ON, then the box will stay there.

Gotcha--I generally shoot with the ZE's. That does ring a bell with the Canon zooms. However, since AF doesn't work during video shooting anyway, then just leave the lens on manual focus...?

Definitely. Sometimes I'll use the auto focus to pull a focus a static item, then turn it to manual. However, sometimes I'll forget to turn it back and will wonder why the box is still there...

Thanks, Charles, for the lowdown on the pillar/letterboxing. Perhaps a firmware upgrade in the future will kill this problem. I'd like to see the entire underscan on my VX7.

About the AF point box. I also use Zeiss ZE lenses, so turning off the auto-focus is not an option. I will use your suggestion and just move it as far down as it will go.

You should be fine Gabe--with the ZE's the box just disappears when you roll (there's no autofocus to turn on or off!)

Right, Charles, with the ZE's there's no auto-focus option. Just for composition purposes pre-roll, that damn white box annoys me.

This colorist makes the point :)

Sort of interesting but it feels like the gains are minimal. Would be worth investigating for a 2:40 project, where the red dot would be eliminated above the frame.