I know previous topics were closed, but I recently came across some new articles on the future of Final Cut Studio. As many of us are using this suite, I thought it might interest you. I am using Adobe Production Studio more and more, as I find Apple's communication seriously lacking for a pro tool.

Anyway,

Final Cut Studio 4: The Inside Scoop (http://macsoda.com/2010/09/05/final-cut-studio-4-the-inside-scoop/)

MacSoda is claiming they have inside information regarding Final Cut Studio 4.

One thing that isn’t here to stay is what we all hate… Final Cut’s bulkiness as a suite, and it’s slug-like agility when live-previewing and rendering. The major feature of the new Final Cut Studio, and the reason the upgrade is taking so long for the team to complete, is a complete architectural code rewriting… i.e. Snow Leopard. The new Final Cut Studio has been re-engineered from the ground up for speed. And apparently, the wait is not in vain. Previewing will be instantaneous. Long renders will be a thing of the past. The secret is that the new Final Cut Studio has been created to take advantage of multiple cores… so if you’re running on an 8-core Mac Pro, you’ll be thanking your lucky stars you stuck it out and didn’t switch to Adobe’s offerings.

They also tout rewrites of Motion (Shake integration), Compressor and a rework of Color getting the FCS interface treatment. DVDStudioPro won't be included anymore (at least they say so).

I am not sure what to think of this. They may be right but some parts seem to generic.

I find the following two articles more interesting:

Introduction to AV Foundation (http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2010/08/introduction-to-av-foundation/#)

Nice article written by Philip Hodgetts about how the iPhone and iPad are better suited to playback H.264 then Final Cut Studio. Also, QuickTime X is basically a ported version of the iPhone's mediaplayer. This is pointing towards Apple rewriting QuickTime, on which Final Cut Pro heavily depends.

Philip's reaction to the MacSoda article (http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2010/09/final-cut-studio-4-the-inside/')

It’s highly unlikely that the next studio release will happen in early 2011, or even 2011. As I noted in the comments on the article, it seems very, very clear that the QuickTime we know will get a complete foundation change. Final Cut Studio would need many of those changes to be able to replicate Adobe’s Mercury Engine performance (along with the need to be 64 bit Cocoa and use Open CL and Grand Central Dispatch). It will need those changes for native support of anything other than QuickTime, which is why everything in FCP needs to be wrapped to QT, if not transcoded.

All of this makes me wonder if I want to stay with Apple. At this moment, also with the latest developments around Apple in general (less professional focused, more consumer focused), I am considering switching to either Adobe or Avid, as they both offer a multi-platform editing suite (Windows and Mac) and are far more open in the communication to their customers. Avid underwent the biggest facelift in that regard, and has become very open (Adobe already was). If Philip is right, we have to deal with the outdated Final Cut Studio for another year while the camera manufacturers are in overdrive. The thing that is bothering me most, is the fact that Apple isn't telling us what they are doing. Adobe announced the Mercury Engine way ahead of the CS5 release.

I am attending IBC next week and really hope Apple will announce something around that time, otherwise I think it they lose another customer. I am really liking Premiere Pro so far, very stable.

I am curious what other people think of these developments. 2012 is a long wait.

p.s. don't forget to read the comments on the last link mentioned, some insightful comments there! Unbelievable that the next Final Cut release is most likely stalled because the have to wait for OS X 10.7, which most likely won't make it out until late 2011, after which it takes 6 months for programs like Final Cut to make the transition (because of stability and bug squashing). The most funny thing of it all is the fact that the technology for OS X 10.7 is said to be ported over from the iOS... which means your iPad is better suited to runt the next FCS then OS X at this moment.

I also have this debate in my head. I work with AVID (PC based) at work and Final Cut at home. I know I could easily get an Avid license to work at home, and personally it's getting hard for me to jump from one platform to the next.
Do a lot of editors deal with this? Using different platforms often?

I have seen articles by this guy before and nothing came of it. Its pretty obvious that DVDSP is dead mainly because Apple didnt write it so to add blu ray support is too large of a undertaking it makes more sense to start over. People can say they have inside info but with Apple we'll know when Apple tells us. Personally I dont use FCP but I own it. id like to see a real update (FCS 3 wasnt) but I wouldnt be surprised if we dont see one. Apple doesnt care much about content creation anymore they sell i-pods. I dont think IBC is where Apple makes these announcements anyway.

As a Final Cut user, I'm finding it hard to believe that a company that will likely sell more than 50 million iPads next year is going to put it's best talent on FCS. So many fantastic projects to work on in video, none of which directly involve FCS.
There was a time FC was part of Apple corporate strategy. I just don't see how it matters much to Apple today. Would you rather work on the UI in FC or be involved in designing the future of television?

I think Don has nailed the situation perfectly. In my opinion, Apple
is in a prime position to sell off its pro apps, before FCS loses any
more market share.

Recall that Final Cut began life as a Macromedia Inc. product before
being acquired by Apple. Might be time for it to find a new home again.

Well, for there to be a future of television you have to have editing software as well ;-)
FC is big in TV here, but I´m not sure what to belive about FC and Apple anymore.
I do think and hope they are working hard on the next upgrade.
Over here, Avid is the only other contender. Premiere is just not used in TV or film.

The problem is, every iOS device sold is a constant revenue stream for Apple. Sure, they'll make more money off the sale of a new Mac Pro and Final Cut Studio seat versus an iPad, but after that money comes in, there's no revenue stream from that purchaser for 3-4 years. Apple shareholders are only interested in what you've done for them lately, as in last quarter lately. Apple most likely sells 100 iOS devices for every copy of Final Cut Studio, so it's not hard to do the math.

Make that something like 10,000.

Anyway, I don't like the interface of Avid, but that is a personal thing. I think Adobe works fine, and unless you are collaborating with other people, I don't see any problems. Adobe even offers importing and exporting of FCP and Avid sequences. Not sure how well that works though.

I really like the tight integration with AE, Photoshop, Encore etcetera.

I agree with Chris, Apple should look at selling their Pro Apps division if they don't put much effort in at anymore. All this news, combined with the lay-off rumors, makes you wonder what's going to happen to Final Cut at Apple.

I'm also an FCP user looking at Adobe, I don't see why Apple can't just give us a preview of what's coming even if it's a year or more away from release, what I don't want to do is continue waiting and then in a years time nothing comes and ProApps are either sold or shelved.

Well, just two years after switching from Liquid to FCP I feel nearly in the same situation. Avid let die this marvelous editing suite to focus customers on their products. But I preferred to switch to Apple. I am still happy with FCP but it's not fun to see that there is no vision for the future. Apple can do it's secret stuff with iPads or iPhones. Nobody cares if you have a new hardware with or without a camera. But for software some transparency is crucial - imho.

Markus

Recall that Final Cut began life as a Macromedia Inc. product before
being acquired by Apple. Might be time for it to find a new home again.

And started its life at Adobe before they sold it to Macromedia ;)

Three years ago everyone said Avid was dead. But they forgot that Avid was a pioneering company and had already started re-inventing its software. Starting with Media Composer 3, then 4, and now version 5.
Each release was aimed at adding significant new features. Media Composer is a core product of Avid Technology. If they had failed to make the product sing, the whole company might have gone under.

Avid had everything to lose, while Apple is so large that they really have nothing to gain with FCS.

Which BTW, FCS is just a collection of software companies that Apple bought, IMO, not a holistic post solution.

Avid Media Architecture just works all too well. A lot of high end post/feature work is moving back to Avid because Apple hasn't really done any good work under the hood of FCS.

My final point is that everyone needs to broaden their skills to include Avid, Apple, and Adobe if you want to be taken seriously as an editor now and in the future.

Didn't Steve answer an email awhile back saying the next version of FCS would be "awesome"? With all I have invested into FCP (time, hardware, plug-ins) I can at least wait till the next version before making a decision about my future with FCS. Having said that, anything short of awesome could be the last straw for me as well. As for MacSoda, they are JAFO. Anyone who saw "Blue Thunder" knows what that is.

If Apple sold its Pro Apps, then the buyer wouldn't be constrained to restrict it to the Mac platform. What would be cool is seeing a revamped suite -- including a tightly integrated Shake -- working under 64-bit Windows or even -- do I dare dream? -- Linux.

FCS4 out by 2012???
Great, just in time for the end of the world.
At least I'll be able to finish my final project in record time.

Didn't Steve answer an email awhile back saying the next version of FCS would be "awesome"? With all I have invested into FCP (time, hardware, plug-ins) I can at least wait till the next version before making a decision about my future with FCS. Having said that, anything short of awesome could be the last straw for me as well. As for MacSoda, they are JAFO. Anyone who saw "Blue Thunder" knows what that is.

The problem is, it doesn't have to be "awesome" or "magical" (how I hate that term), it just has to have the features that pro users need, it has to be integrated well with other professional tools (both Apple and third party), and it has to be fast. Radical changes just to make people say "wow!" aren't what's needed here. Making all transitions instant wouldn't be sexy, but it would be useful. Changing the interface to make it work like iMovie might look cool, but it's not necessary.

I agree with some of the stuff said about FCS3, but I did notice some speed increases with Snow Leopard. But I also don't have a problem with FCP7 not getting anything spectacular, like Smoothcam and ProRes, but instead focusing on getting the app better.

I wish they'd make the Share function better and faster. I wish they'd put Blu-ray into DVDSP and give us an honest update (5+ years now).

Apple doesn't announce anything at a trade show anymore, as we saw with FCS3 last year and all the new iPhone, iPad, iPod announcements of late.

I don't think Apple is abandoning it, and I loved that Steve Jobs gave a verbal shout out to FC at the iPhone 4 antennae issue.

One more thing to remember: Consumer products will always outsell pro products, that's just a fact of life. Apple needs their iDevices to do well, so we can keep getting pro stuff.

My thoughts on Avid MC5: Nice, but Avid's UI has always been tricky. Premiere Pro CS5: Terrific, but I still like FCP's UI and ease-of-use better.

Most places I've worked had FCP running, which was great. They loved it more than Adobe, Avid, Vegas, etc. Does Apple need to do a HUGE update of FCS? Yes! But it's still, in my opinion, the best NLE out there for the money.

Heath

I agree with you on some parts.. but at the end, my biggest complain is the secrecy. If you look at all major players in any professional industry, they communicate with their customers. Look at Avid, Adobe, Autodesk, RED, Canon... they all talk to you through Facebook, Twitter, blogs...

What does Apple do? Nothing. I find it childish, and I detest the fake hype surrounding their products. All the supposed leaks that are deliberate to build up hype to get free media attention. That attitude, I despise it. And for that reason, I am fed up with Apple. I do agree that Final Cut Pro is still the best NLE out there, (FCS not the best suite, that honor goes to CS5 if you ask me) but Apple isn't my company anymore. They don't take you, their customer, serious.

I also have problems with the Avid interface. But I don't have problems with Premiere Pro CS5, it is the first stable version in ages, the Mercury Playback engine is ace, the Dynamic Link round tripping works perfectly, Audition is coming to the Mac, which is a solid sound editor. There is a huge library of plug-ins, and many can be shared with After Affects... I really think Adobe is making huge progress. And all those applications are stable... they don't add too much stuff that jeopardizes stability. The biggest improvements can be made in speed, shortcuts, better markers.. FCP is definitely way ahead in that regards. But they also took some time to get there... and I am sure Adobe will improve upon this in the future. Especially now they see that they have another year or 2 and many FCP users are considering switching... One of the things I really love in the Adobe suite is when you point your mouse at a screen area and hit ~, that windows/element goes fullscreen in an instant... and this works so fast that I can comfortably edit on a laptop screen. So they are behind in terms of editing speed but not in terms of UI if you ask me.

I am attending IBC this weekend, and I already know there is a big Adobe booth, a big Avid booth... and Apple is nowhere to be found. Their choice... but the fact that they are not willing to spend money in this industry anymore... it says it all for me. They also don't show ProApps at dedicated events... they just release them... and then comes the big silence again. Feel my frustration.

Apple's focus is on iOS and not on OS X or ProApps anymore. Sad but true.

I am also a recent FCS convert having used Avid Liquid in the past. I was even a moderator on the Liquid forum. When Liquid was more or less killed I was faced with a tough choice and I decided to give FCS a try. So far I love it and I think it is a great system. I have tried every other NLE out there on PC and Mac and I decided to use FCS. That must say something about this old dog of a program. It may be old but it still has a very tricks up it's sleeve that other systems have trouble with.

With that said I do see limitations with FCS. It faces exactly the same problem that Liquid faced. Liquid started out with Fast many moons ago and was eventually bought by Pinnacle who did amazing things with the product. Pinnacle was then bought by Avid and Avid killed it. Basically Liquid had the same sort of history as Final Cut. Both are based on a very old outdated 32bit codebase that has actually been outdated for many years now. Apple was clever however and kept throwing neat tools on top of that ancient codebase to make it seem more modern. Liquid faced a lot of the same problems but Pinnacle was never given the chance to add external programs such as Compressor and DVD Studio Pro to make up for it's slow rendering and limited DVD authoring. In fact if you think about it the entire FCS is a hodgepodge of software Apple purchased from other companies. I think Compressor and Motion are the only two applications Apple actually made themselves.

Avid/Pinnacle knew Liquid was built on outdated code and when the decision was first made to can Liquid it was to start all over with a new application built from the ground up. That was the only way Liquid could move forward. Personally I think it could have made the same steps Apple did with FCS to extend the life a couple more years but thats another story.

To me it's kins of sad because I just came from a NLE that at one point had a bright future which quickly faded away. Now I have jumped to another NLE that may have the same fate in a year or two. Nice.

I do see Apple in a much different position then Avid was however. Liquid always competed with Media Composer and Avid couldn't have that so many of us think Liquid's days were numbered anyway. Apple on the other hand has no other products that directly compete with FCS. I think it is in their best interest to rebuild FCS. The process does take a lot of time however and I'm sure most of us want Apple to make sure they do it right. I for one do not wish to be a video orphan again and hope FCS is with us for a long time yet. I had a choice as a Avid user to switch to Media Composer for an insanely low price but I decided not to for creative and my own personal issues. I think Avid does some good stuff but it just isn't for me. FCS was the most suitable fit for me when I moved from Liquid and hopefully I will be here to stay for a little bit longer.

Apple does listen, I'm pretty sure of it. They just do it in a different way, like reading what we post. I wish they weren't as secretive, but we have to deal with it. I've been a dedicated FCP user since 1999, and I don't plan on switching anytime soon.

I've used Premiere, Vegas, Avid, D-Vision and others, and I still like Final Cut Pro best.

And I agree, Adobe Production Bundle CS5 is terrific!

Heath

I do see Apple in a much different position then Avid was however. Liquid always competed with Media Composer and Avid couldn't have that so many of us think Liquid's days were numbered anyway. Apple on the other hand has no other products that directly compete with FCS.

Apple has to realize that FCP is about the only compelling reason for pro video guys to stick with the macintosh platform. While there are always exceptions, pro users aren't susceptible to Job's "reality distortion field" and will move to other platforms if they feel FCP is a dead end. Yes, Snow Leopard is a great operating system, and FCP still has a lot going for it, but as a group, we're mature enough to recognize Windows based software as viable options. Face it, if you were going to switch from FCP to CS5, and it was also time to upgrade your production machine, would you automatically buy a Mac Pro?

Even though FCP/FCS isn't a major component in Apple's financial future, it has to have some value as a prestige product. After all, Jobs is very visible in the entertainment industry. I hope we're all wrong about this sinking feeling we're getting regarding Final Cut.

I don't have much of a sinking feeling, to be honest. But I'd like to see a HUGE update in the next 6-9 months. I think that will make us all feel better.

Besides, weren't we hearing about Final Cut Pro's imminent demise last summer, before FCS 3 debuted?

Also, I wouldn't necessarily buy a Mac Pro--I'd go with a MacBook Pro 17-inch model running an i7 processor, 8GB of RAM, an external hard drive and a Matrox MXO2 box.

heath

Heath thats the macbook pro I have I also sell these at a discount once a month . I would still like a 12 core macpro 2


Doug

I'm just going off my budget, but yeah, a 12-core Mac Pro would be great!

heath

Sounds great, a 12-core Mac Pro.

We seem to have a self-perpetuating rumour going on here. Is there any evidence that Apple will sell or discontinue FCS? Where did this idea come from?

If FCS is profitable, it still makes sense for Apple to develop it. A broad company is stronger than one that puts all its eggs in one basket. Maybe Steve Jobs spends less time on FCS and more on the iphone but let's hope the team which heads the project is still dedicated, I can't see why they wouldn't be.

If they are doing a total rebuild, that will take time. I hope it is worth the wait for both us FCS professionals and Apple.

Is there any evidence that Apple will sell or discontinue FCS?

To be blunt, that's the sanest post I've read in this thread of speculation.

It's hard to imagine sometimes just how big Apple is these days. Just read an article that talked about Michael Dell's infamous 1997 comment that Apple should be shut down and the money returned to the stockholders. At the close of yesterday's market, Apple's market cap was 10 times that of Dell's, and Apple has enough available cash to purchase Dell outright. Twice.

So basically, Apple could be spend as much as Avid and Adobe combined on NLE software development, and it wouldn't be a significant portion of the company's resources.

I second that "sanest post" comment! Until then, we just have to wait and see what happens. If you need to upgrade and you want to go with Adobe, go for it. Otherwise, I've been using FCS3 for a year now and I love it, no real big issues to speak of. Could it be better? Yes, always, but I still think it's a great update.

Heath

Is there any evidence that Apple will sell or discontinue FCS? An excellent question, and the answer is: No.

... we just have to wait and see what happensIndeed, and a perfect comment with which to conclude this thread. Thanks all,