Thanks for those figures.
Don't forget that VAT is going up next year as well, so that would put the XF100 to about £2755.
Still very interested though - I'd like to see some more images from its single chip...

Yeah, so would I. Have n't found anything new since the French clips despite some occasional Google searching with 'XF100' and 'Video' keywords.

If people start taking delivery in the next week or so then we'll start to see some clips soon! Certainly, at those prices my decision to buy is definitely still "on hold" (even though I'd get the VAT back anyway so it's rate is irrelevant to VAT registered businesses like mine).

Note to Chris Hurd and the Mods: I guess as soon as cameras start getting used this discussion will get moved to the Canon XF 300/305 section - or will the XF100/105 have their own sub section?

Yes, it'll be one or the other; either we'll throw the 100 / 105 into the
existing XF board or we'll give it its own forum, and that will happen
when we get closer to the actual shipping date.

By the way, in case anyone has not seen this yet, here is the very recent (8th Dec) French review of the XF100 by the guy that did those clips, Antonin Baches.

test-canon-xf100-fonctionnalites-1 (http://www.repaire.net/news_tests_tutos/tests/test-canon-xf100-fonctionnalites-1_201012082387/)

If you don't understand French well (I almost do having worked there many times - but it's a bit rusty) just use the Google Translation tool to instantly get a "90% readable" script in English/language of your choice - with a few funny ambiguous phrases of course!

Been following this thread for a while and became a member today.
I just found out that the "XF100 / XF105 NTSC instruction manual" can now be downloaded from Canon USA:

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : XF100 (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/camcorders/professional_camcorders/xf100#BrochuresAndManuals)

Welcome to DVinfo - you'll like it here! I had some very happy times working in your country (at Aarhus) a few years ago. Thanks for the link.

Welcome to DVinfo - you'll like it here! I had some very happy times working in your country (at Aarhus) a few years ago. Thanks for the link.

Thank you Andy and sorry for not introducing myself properly.

I’m a product designer with no experience in video, except for a few product animations.
I’m planing a 2-month trip to China and Japan next year.
Instead of making sketches and writing a diary I want to document it on video.
For that purpose I’m planing to get the XF100 and a lot of other stuff. Everything as light as possible.

Would this camera be useful for some green screen work, primarily for the web?

Blake,
According to Canon, the 4:2:2 color encoding makes these camcorders good for green screen work. However, some cameramen have speculated that the single sensor of only 1/3" size might make it difficult for the camcorder to differentiate colors well enough to take advantage of the 4:2:2 color encoding. We won't know for sure until some green screen tests are done and published. The product is expected to arrive on store shelves sometime in January. So maybe by the end of January we will have our answer!
Ken

For what it's worth, the Slashcam website has posted their review of the XF100, and they include measurements (graphs) of color resolution:

HD camcorder reviews/tests and comparison of Canon XF100 sorted by score (http://camcorder-test.slashcam.com/compare-cmd-i-view-u-what-i-detail-u-lang-i-en-u-id-i-180-u-name-i-Canon-XF100.html)

You can compare the XF100 with other camcorders by using the "One on One Cam Comparison" feature on this site.

Pat

Interesting reading. I have to say I'm leaning towards the same conclusions after reading/seeing these results, not to mention some of the comments. However, I'll await seeing several example/test clips and some good user analytical comments from you good fellows before I decide if this cam will join my kit, or not.

If the XF100/105's are delivered here in the UK to some early adopters next week (by the 20th Dec, as promised by some UK suppliers) I'm sure you'll all keep us all posted on DVinfo on what you find/like/don't like, won't you!!!! ;-)

According to Canon, the 4:2:2 color encoding makes these camcorders good for green screen work.
In terms of the codec, that's true. It's not just the 4:2:2, it's better overall compression generally.
However, some cameramen have speculated that the single sensor of only 1/3" size might make it difficult for the camcorder to differentiate colors well enough to take advantage of the 4:2:2 color encoding.
The basis for the speculation is that they have a single 1920x1080 Bayer sensor - so half the photosites green, and a quarter each red and blue. De-Bayering inevitably means that the output resolution won't be as high as the chip itself, and the chrominance resolution will be worse than luminance. In other words, the luminance resolution will be less than 1920x1080, chrominance resolution far less still.

You really need a Bayer chip of much better than 1920x1080, or a 3 chip 1920x1080 design to really do justice to 4:2:2.

......

You really need a Bayer chip of much better than 1920x1080, or a 3 chip 1920x1080 design to really do justice to 4:2:2.

Well, by that logic Red wouldn't be good enough for big screen.
Little chips used in 3x designs have large measurement errors compared to relatively huge bayer sensors with large photosites.

That's why Scarlet is 3K (for 2K delivery) and EPIC is 5K (for 2K or 4K delivery).

Most digital screens in the US are 2K.

I just saw on BH that you can now pre order them.

I am planning on replacing my XH-A1 with the XF100. It looks like the resolution will be comparable. Despite the shorter telephoto and small sensor size, I am looking forward to the better codec (having fewer motion artifacts is appealing) and the diversity of adjustments in a small, light-weight package.

Pat

That's why Scarlet is 3K (for 2K delivery) and EPIC is 5K (for 2K or 4K delivery).

Most digital screens in the US are 2K.

Downresing doesn't make a better file. The extra pixels, as well as pixel depth, allow cropping and heavy adjustments without a large loss in quality. I've only shot and edited 1080, but the principals shouldn't change with larger files.

Well, by that logic Red wouldn't be good enough for big screen.
The sensor Red uses has 4096 by 2304 active photosites - over 4.5 times that of a 1920x1080 Bayer sensor. So by my logic it would be more than good enough for the big screen. More than enough for a 1920x1080 output even.

Downresing doesn't make a better file. The extra pixels, as well as pixel depth, allow cropping and heavy adjustments without a large loss in quality. I've only shot and edited 1080, but the principals shouldn't change with larger files.

Actually, downressing can make a better result. As an example, we can only hear 20 Hz - 20 kHz. Sampling theory says that we should only need to sample at 40 kHz; however, anti-aliasing filters are not perfect brick walls. So, we sample at a higher rate (44.1 kHz for CDs, 48 kHz for film) to allow the filter a transition band.

It's the same for video. Optical anti-aliasing filters in cameras aren't perfect. The sharpest possible video shot with a 1080p sensor will alias when shown at 1080p. A camera that has a 1080p sensor with OLPF that removes all aliasing will look soft when shown at 1080p.

Shooting at higher res allows reframing. It also allows the image to be shot with greater than 1080p (or 2k) resolution without aliasing. We can then downres to 1080p or 2k and preserve the highest possible resolution without significant aliasing.

You simply can't get to that level of ideal performance with a single 1080p or 2K sensor when delivering at the same 1080p or 2K. That's not to say that video from a single 1080p sensor won't look very good and, in fact, good enough. But for the highest resolution without aliasing, we need more pixels and downressing to get the slow rolloff of the optical anti-aliasing filter out of the picture.

Sorry if this has been addressed, but I only see one manual control ring on the XF100/105. I have an XHA1, and although they are barely responsive, I still depend on the manual focus/zoom/iris rings daily for documentary shooting. Instead of improving these vital features, it appears that Canon has gone in the opposite direction and stripped them entirely. Is this true? The codec is far less important to me than framing, focusing, and exposing quickly and correctly.

Sorry if this has been addressed, but I only see one manual control ring on the XF100/105.... Is this true?

Yeah, my feelings too with feedback here:-

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/484083-canon-introduces-xf105-xf100-8.html#post1583409

Grazie

I only see one manual control ring on the XF100/105... it appears that Canon has gone in the opposite direction and stripped them entirely. Is this true? The codec is far less important to me than framing, focusing, and exposing quickly and correctly.Hi Alex, it's important to understand what the XF100 / 105 is. Basically it's a compact version of the XF300 / 305. If you need all three control rings, then you should be looking at the camera that has all three control rings, and that's the XF300 / 305. The only "direction" Canon has taken with the XF100 / 105 is to make it a pint-sized version of its big brother, the XF300 / 305. If the control rings are an issue, then the XF300 / 305 is what you want. Hope this helps,

Thanks, Chris. I see that Graham has raised a sufficient protest about the single ring for now. I don't know enough about camcorder design to understand the effect of the three-ring circus on MSRP.

I am keenly aware of the wonderfully improved XF300 lens controls; it's reportedly a far cry from the "wet spinach" feel of the A1 controls. That's why I consider the XF100's controls to be a step backward. Everyone gets that this is a new high in resolution at this price point; I just think Canon ought to know that people who look for 4:2:2 color, 50mbps recording, and especially who would use an HD field monitor, might be pained to give up manual controls.

But I'm putting this complaint to rest. It's amazing how personal the hunt for the right camera is, and when there are so many attractive choices that each have different flaws it can be maddening.

...it's reportedly a far cry from the "wet spinach" feel of the A1 controls. The XH A1 was discontinued quite awhile back. It's replacement, the XH A1S (as well as the G1S) has an entirely different feel to the control rings, fixing that problem completely.

I just think Canon ought to know that people who look for 4:2:2 color, 50mbps recording, and especially who would use an HD field monitor, might be pained to give up manual controls.I hate to repeat myself, but people who look for 4:2:2 color, 50mbps recording, and who would use an HD field monitor, don't have to give up manual controls -- because, once again, that's what the XF300 / 305 does.

You have to understand that the control ring on the XF100 / 105 isn't a step "backward" but is instead a step down in size. As I said before, the XF100 / 105 is simply a compact, pocket version of the XF300 / 305. If you need a small pro camcorder, that's what it's for. If you need the three control rings, the XF300 / 305 has them. The XF300 / 305 is the one you want, the one that has it all. The XF100 / 105 is its little brother. Just to reiterate one more time, if you want three control rings and the XF codec, then you've got them... not in the XF100 / 105 but instead the XF300 / 305.

The XF100 / 105 is just a subset of the XF300 / 305. It's important to understand that.

i have a production XF100 with me. Sadly, its one ring only. However i have to say its really well built. Have not played much with it yet.

When you have had time to play please let us all know what you think!

I messed ard with it and i kinda like it! The LCD is gorgeous, the audio controls are good and the wheel is pretty nice. i realised that i would set the aperature once normally.. (to the fastest having being so spoilt by DSLRs), and i would use the rocker 90% of the time for zooming. So the single ring didnt bother me that much. Only thing i didnt like was the ND filter had to be triggered by software. However there is a small ring like the one on the Sony Z1 which can be used to control the ND. I didnt try that. Will have a go tonight to see how it works.

The features are very similar to the XF300 series and i was impressed. It is truly a great B cam from my intial impressions. I heard from Canon Singapore the price would be quite attractive. I hope they price it right this time. Because i feel that the XF300 was overpriced when compared to the EX1R. In this market the competition would be the new Sony mini NXCAM MC50e which records in AVCHD compared to the nice mpeg2 50Mbps 422.

Thanks, Chris. I see that Graham has raised a sufficient protest about the single ring for now.

Hardly a protest? Rather, more like disappointment. But, as has been mentioned this camera can be used as a work-mate to the 300 or 350. And as such, one has to be reminded of the way Canon "appears"' to be moving their product line. Interesting.

Grazie

Thanks Sean

In the UK the pricing of new models probably puts the XF105 up against the Sony HXR NX5. The Sony has a 20x lens which is probably going to clinch it for my buying decision.

To me, the XF100 is more similar to the original GL1 (which I still use a lot).

For run and gun videos, I don't think having only the one ring is a big deal. On the GL1, it's for focus only, and I hardly ever use it. I would imagine the same would be true on the XF100 for my purposes.

I agree with the sentiments that the XF100/105 are priced well above what you'd expect it to be with respect to the competition from Panasonic, JVC and Sony. However, I know first hand that the XF100/105 have superb build quality so that has to be a factor. It's new so, sure, early adopters will pay a premium and of course there is that 50Mbps codec. As to if the sensor and lens can do it justice - we'll just have to wait and see.

Regarding the single lens ring. That may be an issue for some but I think I could live with it - especially since the "little knob" can be assigned to some functions, I believe.

I'm a bit more concerned about the software controlled ND filter system so would love to hear more about how well (or otherwise) that works.

One other thing that I picked up on today (in the XF300/305 section - see quote below) is the AF Face Detection Mode which appears to work really well on those big sister cams. Now I'm usually using Full Manual focus 99% of the time, actually make that 99.99%... but if it really works as well on these little XF100/105 then that could be a big plus in some situations (run-n-gun events etc.) for some that may help justify the steep pricing (alas, especially steep here in the UK it seems). Mind you the little Panasonic TM700 I'm about to buy has a similar feature and costs peanuts! (relatively).

Sean, (or anyone that took delivery today) if you have time to check out this Face Detection AF Mode as well as the ND system in some depth I'm sure I'm not alone in being interested in your comments! Many thanks!

The AF really depends on the situation. As with all cameras, light makes a huge difference. I have mostly been using mine in full daylight or controlled lighting shoots. I shot a series of auditions for a tv show and just for grins decided to try the face detection AF mode. Not a critical shoot so wasnt concerned if it messed up. To my amazement, it never missed. I mean not once! I then used it for a greenscreen TelePrompTer shoot where the actor would be walking around a bit. Dead perfect! This is the real deal and not a gimmick! Not saying I'd use it all the time but for certain types of shoots, it makes life insanely easy! On a recent shoot, my XF found itself flying on a glidecam 4000 and I suggested to the operator to leave it in face detection AF mode. Worked great!
Since discovering how well it does work, the only times the AF had a problem were in unlit indoors situations (chasing my kids around the house) and one shoot where the background was too bright (used the backlight feature and it helped) So in extreme lighting conditions, use manual. But give the face detection mode a try (I use the instant mode) and as long as the white box is around your talent, you are perfectly focused!

You have to understand that the control ring on the XF100 / 105 isn't a step "backward" but is instead a step down in size. As I said before, the XF100 / 105 is simply a compact, pocket version of the XF300 / 305. If you need a small pro camcorder, that's what it's for. If you need the three control rings, the XF300 / 305 has them. The XF300 / 305 is the one you want, the one that has it all. The XF100 / 105 is its little brother. Just to reiterate one more time, if you want three control rings and the XF codec, then you've got them... not in the XF100 / 105 but instead the XF300 / 305.

The XF100 / 105 is just a subset of the XF300 / 305. It's important to understand that.


Or alternatively, understand that the XF100 / 105 are a big step up from the HF-S21 / 20 / 200 consumer cams that they superficially resemble with upgrades to the lens (control ring, ND), sensor, codec, storage media (CompactFlash instead of SDHC), presets, and pro XLR audio inputs (did I leave anything out? viewfinder?). And with the XF105 you get HD-SDI and the ability to pair them up to do 3-D.

I agree with the sentiments that the XF100/105 are priced well above what you'd expect it to be with respect to the competition from Panasonic, JVC and Sony. However, I know first hand that the XF100/105 have superb build quality so that has to be a factor. It's new so, sure, early adopters will pay a premium and of course there is that 50Mbps codec. As to if the sensor and lens can do it justice - we'll just have to wait and see.

Regarding the single lens ring. That may be an issue for some but I think I could live with it - especially since the "little knob" can be assigned to some functions, I believe.

I'm a bit more concerned about the software controlled ND filter system so would love to hear more about how well (or otherwise) that works.

One other thing that I picked up on today (in the XF300/305 section - see quote below) is the AF Face Detection Mode which appears to work really well on those big sister cams. Now I'm usually using Full Manual focus 99% of the time, actually make that 99.99%... but if it really works as well on these little XF100/105 then that could be a big plus in some situations (run-n-gun events etc.) for some that may help justify the steep pricing (alas, especially steep here in the UK it seems). Mind you the little Panasonic TM700 I'm about to buy has a similar feature and costs peanuts! (relatively).

Sean, (or anyone that took delivery today) if you have time to check out this Face Detection AF Mode as well as the ND system in some depth I'm sure I'm not alone in being interested in your comments! Many thanks!

Andy, I'll say it again...the face detection is killer! It's like when the auto industry introduced ABS and traction control. If I want to play with focus, I grab my 7D with it's toys! (if I want to do burnouts and drift, I take my wife's old Mustang!) Works great since I shoot a bunch of 2 camera gigs with me as the only operator.

I plan on getting a 100 for a b-cam next year and hope the AF works as well as it does on the 300!

understand that the XF100 / 105 are a big step up from the HF-S21 / 20 / 200 consumer cams that they superficially resemble

That's exactly my feeling as well Bill.
I see it as an upgrade from my little HFS100 - which I love dearly and really sings for me - with the advantage of a professional (broadcast) codec and better control of focus.

Sean,

Thanks for those details. I saw your review on the Sony NX5 and I 'm wondering how the Canon XF100 compares in image quality and in particular, low light sensitivity to that camera. Can you make any observations for us?


I messed ard with it and i kinda like it! The LCD is gorgeous, the audio controls are good and the wheel is pretty nice. i realised that i would set the aperature once normally.. (to the fastest having being so spoilt by DSLRs), and i would use the rocker 90% of the time for zooming. So the single ring didnt bother me that much. Only thing i didnt like was the ND filter had to be triggered by software. However there is a small ring like the one on the Sony Z1 which can be used to control the ND. I didnt try that. Will have a go tonight to see how it works.

The features are very similar to the XF300 series and i was impressed. It is truly a great B cam from my intial impressions. I heard from Canon Singapore the price would be quite attractive. I hope they price it right this time. Because i feel that the XF300 was overpriced when compared to the EX1R. In this market the competition would be the new Sony mini NXCAM MC50e which records in AVCHD compared to the nice mpeg2 50Mbps 422.

Maybe it is of interest
Found new video
“XF100 / 105 masterclass" on the Canon-Europe website:

Canon Professional Network - XF105 & XF100 Masterclass (http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/masterclass/xf100_xf105.do)

Good feature overview by Canon. Thanks for posting!

Now deliveries are apparently coming through, anyone with "real user hands-on experience" got any comments, e.g. I'd love to know more about the Auto ND?

Andy-
Can you confirm that dealers in the UK, or Europe for that matter, have 100s and/or 105s in stock.

Thanks,

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Hi Jim,

I'm sure Canon are the best people to tell you exactly when your US bound stock will arrive but this is what (little) I am able to ascertain.

Creative Video Products here in the UK originally had the XF105 listed as available from 20th Dec (see post by another Brit, Mark, earlier in this thread) but I checked their website just now and it's saying in stock on 4th Jan (and 1st Jan availability for the XF100). Other well known/trusted UK video suppliers websites that I've just viewed typically list "2-3 days delivery" on both (which I'd take with a pinch of salt right now).

My guess is the UK wide airport shutdown fracas that we recently endured with the snow here will have delayed some freight shipments somewhat but let's hope they start appearing next week! I'm still eagerly awaiting real user comments and video clips before I decide to buy a baby XF (or not) in the Spring (or possibly await a Canon 5DMkIII later in the year ....if it gets released in 2011, that's anyone's guess right now and certainly not a topic for discussion just yet).

At least we know deliveries of the baby XFs have started in Asia! (as Sean Seah has already taken delivery of his production XF100 - see earlier in this thread).

Japanese review of the Canon XF105 (by Google translation): Canon XF105 (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pronews.jp%2Fcolumn%2Fde-inada%2F1012271230.html%3Fpage%3D3).

For comparision:
- Canon XF300 / XF305: Canon XF300 / XF305 (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pronews.jp%2Fcolumn%2Fde-inada%2F1005171108.html%3Fpage%3D2),
- Sony NX5: Sony NX5 (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pronews.jp%2Fcolumn%2Fde-inada%2F1003311100.html%3Fpage%3D3).

Some shots from the reviews:

TV table.
Canon XF305:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/XF305-12h46m46s.jpg

Canon XF105:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/XF105-2010-12-21-02h11m32s.jpg

Sony NX5:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/SONY%20NX5J%20010.jpg

Resolution.
Canon XF305:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/XF305-12h47m07s44.jpg

Canon XF105:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/XF105-2010-12-21-02h11m04s0.jpg

Sony NX5:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/SONY%20NX5J%20004.jpg

Resolution and aliasing.
Canon XF305:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/XF305-12h47m24s.jpg

Canon XF105:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/XF105-2010-12-21-02h09m03s.jpg

Sony NX5:
http://www.pronews.jp/photo/SONY%20NX5J%20008.jpg

Hi Jim,

I'm sure Canon are the best people to tell you exactly when your US bound stock will arrive but this is what (little) I am able to ascertain.

Creative Video Products here in the UK originally had the XF105 listed as available from 20th Dec (see post by another Brit, Mark, earlier in this thread) but I checked their website just now and it's saying in stock on 4th Jan (and 1st Jan availability for the XF100). Other well known/trusted UK video suppliers websites that I've just viewed typically list "2-3 days delivery" on both (which I'd take with a pinch of salt right now).

My guess is the UK wide airport shutdown fracas that we recently endured with the snow here will have delayed some freight shipments somewhat but let's hope they start appearing next week! I'm still eagerly awaiting real user comments and video clips before I decide to buy a baby XF (or not) in the Spring (or possibly await a Canon 5DMkIII later in the year ....if it gets released in 2011, that's anyone's guess right now and certainly not a topic for discussion just yet).

At least we know deliveries of the baby XFs have started in Asia! (as Sean Seah has already taken delivery of his production XF100 - see earlier in this thread).

Thanks Andy...I'm just trying to confirm that Europe & Asia are getting theirs before they hit the US. I was told last week that for us, the cameras were being pushed into sometime February....which I'm not real happy about.

Thanks,

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

I know these cameras are scarce but this price hike is a bit steep!

Decided not to order one today...... :)


Mark

No way man, it's a web master comma typo :)

Must be the VAT increase that's to blame!!! Cost aside, looking on the bright side at least you can have a baby XF in 2-3 days if you REALLY want it! ;-)

...and you know you do - really!...

Yeah, but now the XA10 is on the near horizon things have become more difficult - choice is a good thing thought! (see the thread I've just started comparing XF100 to XA10)

At least ProAV have fixed their price now!

Mind you, every single item in their store is in stock, available for 2-3 days delivery. Either it's a very big stock room, or the stock level listed is just a guess.

Not a new test (2 month ago), but apparently the only one for the moment...

4 parts:
- test-canon-xf100-fonctionnalites-1 (http://www.repaire.net/news_tests_tutos/tests/test-canon-xf100-fonctionnalites-1_201012082387/)
- test-canon-xf100-fonctionnalites-2 (http://www.repaire.net/news_tests_tutos/tests/test-canon-xf100-fonctionnalites-2_201012082388/)
- test-canon-xf100-sensibilite-vs-z5-ex1-550d (http://www.repaire.net/news_tests_tutos/tests/test-canon-xf100-sensibilite-vs-z5-ex1-550d_201012082389/)
- test-canon-xf100-conclusion (http://www.repaire.net/news_tests_tutos/tests/test-canon-xf100-conclusion_201012082390/)

Canon XF100, de nuit on Vimeo

Canon XF100, Infrared on Vimeo

I know these cameras are scarce but this price hike is a bit steep!

Decided not to order one today...... :)


Mark

I think they have it under priced!

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

On the Creative Video Products website the XF100 is listed as "in stock on 14/02/2011" Price £2,638.80 inc. VAT

Creative Video - Canon XF100 (XF-100) Professional Camcorder - MPEG-2 Full HD recording codec, 50Mbps, 4:2:2 Infrared mode and 3D Shooting Assist functions (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/canon_xf100)

The XF105 ships within a week Price £3,570.00 inc. VAT

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/canon_xf105