Finally got to have a play with this camcorder today at the Canon Expo in Islington, London.

Superb build quality. The last time i had something like this in my hands was the PDX10, but this thing feels a lot more solid, with most of the pro features from its big brothers in the XF range. The LCD is amazing for a camera of this price point, and given its size, the manual controls are excellent. And then of course there's the BBC approved codec.

Ideally I'd like to hang on to my 5D mkii, but should we have to part company later this year to facilitate buying this camera in January i'll be a happy man. It's been a while since a camera leapt out at me as such an obvious choice for my next purchase, but short of a surprise announcement by the competition, the XF100 will be my next camera.

...for a camera of this price point...Did I miss a recent press release, or did they mention at the Canon Expo what the suggested retail will be? I've not seen a suggested retail on these cameras yet; only speculation so far.

Any idea on pricing yet?

No firm pricing info yet, because these cameras are not
due to appear until Q1 of next year, and there's no way
to know right now what the yen will be doing at that time.

I handled these at the Canon Pro Photo event in Islington, London today. Jan/Feb availability was mentioned. Superb build quality and design. Canon are onto a winner with this small form factor.... and I'm sure they know it.... so I'd expect the pricing to start a little higher than we might otherwise like it to be and then gradually fall over a few months (as is typical). These little cams were not on my agenda until today but now I'm going to be studying all the online reviews and clips as these come in!

Is it possible to use XF100 as a B cam for EX1R 'am just thinking. looking at the form factor it will be perfect for wedding and the likes .

I handled these at the Canon Pro Photo event in Islington, London today. Jealous . . . . paint me green . .

Superb build quality and design. Canon are onto a winner with this small form factor.... OK, but I'd sworn that the upgrade from my XM2 would be one with 3-rings. How did you get on with the "single" ring?

These little cams were not on my agenda until today but now I'm going to be studying all the online reviews and clips as these come in! Oh yes, oh yes . . .

I notice that one of the accessories would be a tele adaptor. That may just calm me down.

Real World testing is defo for this chappie.

Grazie

Sure, adapting to the single ring and it's controls is something that will take some getting used to as indeed are some of the other compromises/some of the omissions that are inevitable to get it into such a small, highly portable (and hopefully reasonable cost) package.

It's really down to how good the "non L" lens is, or is not (we already know the codec is stella from XF300/305 reviews), and exactly what price it's going to go for. As we here in the UK all know, the mooted $2999 US price is unlikely to just translate into a straight currency conversion to Sterling. I think they just charge what they think the market will stand (bit like our real ale pricing up and down the UK!).

I'm fully expecting low light performance and true resolving power of the sensor to be a little south of the XF300s for technical reasons already well covered on here - but that could still end up being superb for such a small cam/price point. I stress could, we don't know yet.

It's just as well it's not available right now as I'd have been so tempted to have got my business debit card out there and then! I really was all set on just buying a little Canon HF S21 or Panny TM700 for extra coverage early in the new year (and may well still do this if Canon go silly on the UK pricing). However, I've never been a fan of AVCHD.

Once you've seen this XF100, got it in your hands and see/feel just how well it appears to have been designed/put together/fits in the hand (really great LCD too!) then you too could easily "weaken" into dolling out the extra dosh in a heartbeat!

Stop it Andy, stop it! I can only take so much of this temptation before I whip out my own credit card, and goodness knows that's a dangerous path to tread. Please, please could everyone say this camera is rubbish and should never be bought, and my bank balance can sleep tight at night... :-)

I handled these at the Canon Pro Photo event in Islington, London today. Jan/Feb availability was mentioned. Superb build quality and design. Canon are onto a winner with this small form factor.... and I'm sure they know it.... so I'd expect the pricing to start a little higher than we might otherwise like it to be and then gradually fall over a few months (as is typical). These little cams were not on my agenda until today but now I'm going to be studying all the online reviews and clips as these come in!
So Andy, to what extent was it a working model? Was it taking pictures? Was it hooked up to a monitor, and if so, what did the images look like? Were you able to try the zoom or the auto-focus, or look into the menus?

Not hooked up to big a monitor (but the XF305 was - that looked great!). Lovely LCD - Peaking looked very good (I find this feature totally essential with my EX3). Regarding the single lens ring, the well placed switch just behind it on the left (controls) side allows choice in what it's doing. Don't forget you've also got the small little wheel thing further back that can be assigned to some functions - this is also well placed, as indeed were all the controls really.

I could n't properly hold it in the palm as they had a cable coming out of the middle of the grip side (which prevented you putting you hand fully in the grip).

We tried the zoom and it was actually really good, slow creep zoom seemed perfectly possible. Auto focus worked but that's about as far as I took that inspection as I shoot full manual 99.9% of the time anyway. Viewfinder was adequate rather than stunning from a quick peek into it. The EX3 spoils me in that area...

I think someone wrote it earlier in this thread, sometimes you just pick up a camera and everything just seems "right" - and that's the feeling I got with this even though I'd essentially previously dismissed it as a possible addition to my current Sony EX3/Canon 7D/Sony HC1 arsenal (the latter ageing, but still going...but rarely comes out now!). This cam would be a replacement for the HC1 so I was originally looking for something of that equivalent size/price area but if this cams pictures are as good as we all hope they might be I'll take a stretch and go for it - but only if the price is sensible!...are you listening Canon?

I notice that one of the accessories would be a tele adaptor.


I was able to locate the Wide-Angle adaptor on the Canon site, but not a Telephoto adaptor. Can you point us to that information?
The only potential deal-killer on this cam for us might be it's 10x lens, as we are used to the great 20x lens on all our other Canon cams. I already contacted a third party outfit regarding a potential tele adaptor lens, and they had no plans on producing one for this model.
-Thanks!

I was able to locate the Wide-Angle adaptor on the Canon site, but not a Telephoto adaptor. Can you point us to that information?

I'm not sure your experience would be the same for everybody - your "us", as this info is readily available from within the Official Canon PDF for both XF1xxs and I'm betting that "others" would have read it prior to my posting?

I already contacted a third party outfit regarding a potential tele adaptor lens, and they had no plans on producing one for this model.

As I said, I read the official Canon PDF on these matters. I didn't/wouldn't glean such crucial information as this from making enquiries from a "third party". Added to which, and in regard to such important information, as the option for more reach, I prefer to go to the designers of the machine itself, which is exactly what I did. As a staunch Canon XM2 user, wishing to up my "game", I can't afford to take these matters lightly. Presently I have 20x and with a 2x adaptor it is mighty powerful reach. Not to have this again, would truly be painful for me.

Canon have met me halfway with the 58mm - I can still use my WA58mm (maybe?) - so why then ditch/divert the part of the market-share by then hobbling me with a mean ole 10x? The single chip Bayer Filter system I'd need to see in action to make any "hard-done-by" comments. The single Ring design, again, I'd have to experience too.

Canon will be ready for teeth suckers like myself. They've seen and heard it all before. Maybe it's time to recognise that deaf ears is all I can expect? (But I would be able to buy 2 of these machines and do 3-D!)

Even at this earliest of announcements, I see that this camera has many "market-share" fits, least of which is surveillance; the XF3xxs as a cammie for broadcasters then these offerings are nice lil brothers to those plus that all important "must've" 3-D bleedin' edge yahooo.

Am I a wee bit soured? I sure am.

Regarding the TeleConv, go back to the official Canon site. Try and read it without weeping.

And again, I really need to get my hands on this palm offering to be fair on Canon and myself.

Grazie

If it is possible to use the WD-H58 0.7x wide angle adapter lens, then it becomes probable that you can use the TL-H58 1.5x tele adapter lens. We can only hope that this possibility pans out. My biggest concern for the wide angle is given the XF-100/105 has a natively wider field of view than the HF-S series cameras the WD-H58 was designed for, does the WD-H58 remain a fully zoom through lens at the wide end? 40mm FOV x 0.7 = 28mm FOV (HF-S series) vs. 30mm FOV x 0.7 = 21mm FOV (XF-10x series), truly very wide. At this point I am in a holding pattern of wait and see. So many cameras, so little time...and money.

Andy Wilkinson

I couldn't get conformation on the price for the reasons Chris mentioned no doubt, but the lady i spoke to seemed to think it would come in at around 2 and a half grand in the UK. Not cheap when you consider you can pick up an XHA1 for that, but of course this is the next generation, and i suspect they know they're on to a winner.

BTW, I thought the single lens ring was pretty easy to get used to. In fact after 15 mins playing around i was comfortable with jumping between focus, iris and zoom.

Very excited about this camera.

Thanks for the pricing ball park.

I couldn't get conformation on the price for the reasons Chris mentioned no doubt, but the lady i spoke to seemed to think it would come in at around 2 and a half grand in the UK. Not cheap when you consider you can pick up an XHA1 for that, but of course this is the next generation, and i suspect they know they're on to a winner.

At current exchange rates, that's almost exactly $4,000 U.S. which agrees with the price a guy at the New York Canon Expo gave for the XF100 (the XF105 being $5,000.)

I'm still hoping it'll be closer to $3,000!

[Edited to correct the model numbers!]

If it is possible to use the WD-H58 0.7x wide angle adapter lens, then it becomes probable that you can use the TL-H58 1.5x tele adapter lens. We can only hope that this possibility pans out. My biggest concern for the wide angle is given the XF-100/105 has a natively wider field of view than the HF-S series cameras the WD-H58 was designed for, does the WD-H58 remain a fully zoom through lens at the wide end? 40mm FOV x 0.7 = 28mm FOV (HF-S series) vs. 30mm FOV x 0.7 = 21mm FOV (XF-10x series), truly very wide. At this point I am in a holding pattern of wait and see. So many cameras, so little time...and money.

Excellent info. Thanks for the input. We'll see if the TL-H58 is a viable solution soon.

I'm curious about the variable frame rate "In 1080 mode, fast motion is supported up to 2.5x the normal rate and as slow as 1/2.5x"
So does this mean that if I record in 1080p30 in half speed slow motion mode, that it will actually capture 60 progressive frames per second but play back at half the frame rate? It seems to me that you would be able to drop the file into a 1080p60 timeline, adjust the playback rate if needed, and have yourself 1080p60 footage. I'm sure there must be something I'm missing here, because otherwise they would just spec it as able to shoot 1080p60. How would the audio be handled during fast/slow motion recording? You could always use a separate field recorder for the audio if necessary. Any thoughts or input is welcome!

Hey everyone....I'm excited because later today I'll have my hands on a 105....I'm anxious to see the size, picture, and how the functions work (lens ring). We are going to try and get a video up on you tube if we have it long enough. As Dr. Watson said..."I'll report later with my findings".....

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Cool! Please try a low light test. I'm curious as to how the single chip will perform.

Yep, thats why its here....we're doing a low light test for 2 of our clients (big reality producers) who are very interested in the low light/ IR capabilities to use on their many shows.

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Excellent news Jim. Look forward to hearing (and hopefully seeing) your test results.

Also, for those that follow Mac Video there are two new Canon interview films where the XF100/105, 300/305 and 60D, other DSLRs (and a brand new DSLR lens) get discussed by Canon sales staff. More a sales pitch than anything - but it's good to see the key points about the XF100/105 spelled out as you watch it sitting next to it's brother and sister. Link below:

MacVideo - Camera Technology - Interviews - Canon XF 100/105 and XF300/305; plus DSLR update with EOS 60D and 14 - 15mm fisheye L series lens (http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/interviews/index.cfm?articleId=3248815)

Also, here is a snap my mate took with his 7D showing the fateful moment when I got a XF100 (or was it 105, can't remember now) in my hand at the recent Canon Pro Photo event in London. Note my concerned look as I realise that the next few minutes might become another "expensive moment" for my business purchasing decisions in early 2011. He's got a video clip of me handling it too - but I look really ugly when drooling...

Okay....We spent about 2 hours playing with the 105 and here are some thoughts.....

1) as the ladies here said..."It's so cute" 3.3lbs, compact, and really feels solid.

2) we looked at the picture via HDMI thru a KiPro, changed to HD SDI and onto a TV Logic 50" LCD.....and we were very surprised on how sharp the picture was....it handled all the most minute details very well, the corners were fine with no CA.....in fact it was so sharp, it made me look older!

3) we next played with the gain with the lights out (some ambient coming in from other rooms)...the noise at +33 was somewhat as expected but still quite usable. When we moved down 1 step (I think it was +25), the noise appeared to drop quite a bit....quite remarkable for that much gain.

4) then we went to use the IR.......in the green vs. white debate, everyone in the room liked the white better and when we used the IR illuminator, the white seemed to work better. As for the Illuminator itself (located on the front of the mic), the 1st 6ft we quite strong and was able to produce distinct shadows when my hand was put in front of my body on a black shirt. From 6 to 10ft or so, the illuminator still did a good job with the hand shadow more diffused. We then went into a completely dark, large closet and, just using the LCD, it was very easy to see, focus,etc......our clients gave it a big tumbs up.

All in all, very impressed...but still no solid word on the pricing (I expect that we'll here soon on that).

As for the size, we made a quick, fun video comparing the 105's size to a large avocado and it should be up on our youtube site later today.

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Hi Jim,

Excellent post. Thank you. I also had a quick look on YouTube but could not find your much anticipated Canon XF105 footage. Is it up yet?

Night video:
Canon XF100, de nuit on Vimeo

1080p25, 50mbps, 4:2:2, Shutter 1 / 50 (except for the bumper cars at 1 / 25)
Gain between 0 and 6dB,
Shooting without a tripod in hand,
Autofocus "Instant AF".


Timelapse:
Canon XF100, Timelapse on Vimeo

1080p25, 50Mbps, 4:2:2, Shutter 1 / 50
2 frames all over 3h 4s.


Infrared function:
Canon XF100, Infrared on Vimeo

1080p25, 50Mbps, 4:2:2
Everything is automatic.

Hi Jim,

Excellent post. Thank you. I also had a quick look on YouTube but could not find your much anticipated Canon XF105 footage. Is it up yet?

We had to re-shoot the peice on Friday....its being edited now and should be up later today or tomorrow....without the avocado....and we did not add any actual footage because we had a very limited time with the camera....but the stuff above looks very good and seems to cover what people want to see.

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

I'm so impressed with the French material - even for web video it looks good.
I'm definitely going to look out for this little camera when it reaches these shores next year...

If only you can compare it to a couple of it's competitors, the JVC HM100 and the Panasonic HMC40.

Maybe, but it's the 50Mbs capability that's the clincher for me since I need to shoot material for broadcast sometimes in the UK...

Yes, the Canon XF 300s are the only 1/3" camera on the BBC's HD camera list. They'll need something to replace all those Z1s that they've been using in recent years.

Although, the sensor may be the stumbling block for this new camera being used for more than inserts.

Thanks for pointing us at those test videos of the XF100 Ivan. Looks pretty promising for such a small cam.

The night time shots show that this camera is certainly capable of some pretty decent stuff at 0 and +6dB gain. Sure, I don't expect it'll be quite as good as my Sony EX3 or Canon 7D at night/in low light due to sensor size etc. but it looked OK from a quick viewing just now (purely from a noise aspect, ignoring other factors).

I wonder what the JVC HM100 and Panasonic HMC41 would have made of those types of shots? (as I guess they are the most directly comparable competition in this size of cam/price point).

It would make for an intersting b-cam. I like that codec.
But how will a single 1/3" CMOS perform? Is it superior to the competition's 1/4" 3 CMOS?

I'm really concerned about the 1/3" sensor. Not so much that it's a single 1/3" sensor, but that it's only 2Mpixel. They certainly did that for light concerns... with the Bayer filter, they're down to 1/3 the sensitivity of a 1/3" 3-chipper, and even a bit less than a 1/4" 3-chip camera, all things being equal.

But if you look at the $1000-ish market, the modern Canons hold their own, pretty much, against the Panasonics, despite the single chip. They do this largely by using an 8Mpixel sensor. Sure, that gives consumers a reasonable still photo mode (stills on my HMC40 and TM700 are questionable at best), but it also allows the camera to use pixel-binning -- same reason DSLRs and high-end cinema cameras can use a single sensor and not screw you with color errors.

With the single chip at 2Mpixel, they're going to have the same color issues as my old Sony HVR-A1 and Canon HV10. Also, not sure how you get any digital zoom of interest out of that chip without a corresponding loss of video quality. At least with a large sensor, you can do a modest digital zoom and not do much damage to the image (you lose the pixel bucketing).

Sure, the higher bitrate is a good thing... but even with that, there are issues. Ok, full 1920x1080 at 50Mb/s in 4:2:2, that's good. But it's actually slightly more compression than DV, since you need to double your bitrate for 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0, but they're also going to 1920x1080 vs. 1440x1080. Probably still looks great, but we'll see. The MPEG-2 workflow is certainly more tried and true, but the AVC encoders are getting very good, with as much as twice the coding efficiency of MPEG-2.

I find it interesting that nobody has compared this to the Panasonic HMC-40 which is one heck of a camera.

Yup... as an HMC40 owner, and as well a Sony HVR-A1 owner, this one is right up my alley. But I remain skeptical. The HMC40 was more of an improvement over the HVR-A1 than I expected. I was more or less happy with the A1's performance, at least in adequate light, and don't have the budget for a 1/3" 3-chipper (though a video DSLR definitely looms in my future).


The big difference of course is one shoots AVCHD at 24mbps and the other mpeg2 at 50mbits.

Ideally, that's a pretty even match. Well encoded AVCHD delivers twice the coding efficiency of MPEG-2; that's largely why it's taking over. This hasn't even been much of a question.. the real question is just how close the hardware running in realtime and 3W or so of power can get to that ideal. Up until this year, there was a pretty big jump in AVC encoding quality, year to year... MPEG-2 was actually a mature technology when HDV started shipping. The Canon adds the additional detail of 4:2:2 encoding at 50Mb/s... that bitrate anyway is largely for the color, a little for the extra resolution, versus 1440x1080 at 25Mb/s.


The Panasonic also has 3 cmos 1/4" chips so it will be interesting to see which is actually better. In recent years I think people have started to realize that single chip designs are not as bad anymore. They do tend to be slightly softer but in terms of color and noise rendition there is not a huge difference.


But there's a big reason for that: higher resolution sensors. Crack open any video DSLR or higher end consumer camcorder and you'll find many, many pixels. Canon's own S21 has an 8.5Mpixel sensor, the DSLRs generally about 18Mpixel these days. So while they still use Dr. Bayer's patten on those single sensors, they don't have to interpolate between pixels. You have a 2Mpixel frame, something more than 8Mpixels in the sensor, and you can simply bucket together your G/R-B/G set (if it's pure Bayer, which some of them aren't these days) as one single pixel... no need to look at the neighbors. Thus, none of that color distortion at color boundaries I used to get with the A1. In truth, it's not terribly obvious except when you're chroma keying... except when it is.


With the way bayer works however I think the HMC40 would still win in terms of raw detail. Bayer needs to much interpolation to have a pixel perfect rendition. I do think the Canon would win in terms of low light however which is the one area that has hurt the HMC40.


Not so sure about the low-light thing. Here's my math. A standard 1/4" sensor has an area of 7.68mm^2, while a 1/3" sensor has an area of 17.3mm^2. If they have the same pixel efficiency, you're getting an aggregate 23.0mm^2 coverage with the 1/4" sensor... 33% more light. Ok, the HMC40 is actually using 1/4.1" sensors, so that's about 7.3mm^2 each, 21.9mm^2, 26.7% more light (the comparison is fair... every pixel site is getting 1/3 of the light entering the camera -- on the four chipper, it's split 3 ways, on the Bayer sensor, 2/3 of the light is just eaten).

They're close enough, of course, that "all else being equal' may not apply. If the Canon sensor is better at using light (more pixel coverage, better microlenses, just plain more recent CMOS tech... noise thresholds seem to shrink a little every year), the Canon could still emerge the winner here.

Of course, this is also why three 1/3" sensors is such a big win versus three 1/4" sensors in low light... that's a big improvement in actual imaging area. By comparison, a Canon 7D or 60D has a sensor (APS-C) that's 419mm^2, while the 5D's (full 35mm) is 864mm^2. Thus the advantage in low light for DSLRs, even though they're using high resolution sensors and Bayer patterns.

The Sony HVR-A1U comes to mind. Sure, it's getting a bit long in tooth, but it got very good reviews.


I've used an HVR-A1 since they came out. While it's a great little camera, it did suffer from a lack of low-light sensitivity and color errors. Both of those are inherent in going to a single HD-sized sensor versus three similar sensors... it's 1/3 the light per image pixel, some softening of the image due to interpolation, and color errors along color boundaries.

Certainly sensors have been rapidly improving, so these new cameras should be better in low light than the A1 was, but I'd be surprised if it was all that dramatic. And the color issues, errors and softening, have been solved in consumer and DSLR cameras by pixel bucketing -- more sensor pixels than image pixel, so you don't interpolate across image pixel boundaries. All of the top consumer models have higher resolution sensors for this: Sony, Canon, JVC, even Sanyo (Panasonic uses 3-chips on their higher end consumer models).

It's hard to believe Canon doesn't know what they're doing here, but this is kind of a shock. 2-3Mpixel single sensor camcorders have been second tier consumer models for the last year or so.

Just got the word from Canon........and these are LIST prices here in the US.

XF 100.................................$3300.00USD
XF 105.................................$4300.00USD


Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Good to know, thanks Jim!

Bet that's going to pan out at:


XF 100.................................£3300.00 GBP
XF 105.................................£4300.00 GBP

..over here...

(long sigh)

Ouch! If it's at those UK prices the images will have to be absolutely stunning or I'm definitely walking away from this one. Much too high. A near mint used EX1 would be a better buy. We'll have to see what it actually goes for on the street once the buzz has died down a bit and the camera's true worth is established.

better to buy a sony nx5 at 3150 GBP

Perhaps I was just being pessimistic, but knowing how much we get ripped off in these islands, maybe not...

A quick Google reveals some different UK pricing:

Park Cameras: £9,999.00
3dbroadcastsales.com: £4112.50

I'm kind of hoping that both of them are wrong!

The more well-known dealers are simply listing "to be advised" or "call for pricing".

I got on BH this morning and saw it there too.

if they do like they did on the XF300, the XF100 will go for $2,999 a little bit after the official launch.

I wonder if Canon has a XF200 series in the works. I'd love to see a version with something like the Sony NX5u's attachable 128GB flash drive. That would really be awesome... Having the new codec and a large on camera, easily mountable, instant back up device.

But why would it need such a device? It already records a great codec to easily removeable CF cards. Just take 'em out and load 'em into a computer. What can be more convenient than that?

The reason the NX5s has an external drive is to bypass HDV tapes - and it still records the HDV codec. No need for that on the XF100. The less appendages hanging on a camera, the better, IMHO.

The Sony NX5 isn't HDV, it's AVCHD and doesn't use tape.

That is right, the NX6 is an AVCHD based camcorder and is the solid state variant of the Z5U.

There are 2 Sony Flash Units: The MRC1 which can be used with most HDV camcorders, and then the FMU128 which was specifically designed for the NX5. It mounts cleanly on the rear quarter of the camera and allows up to 11 hours of recording time.

My thought was, it would be great to see something like this from Canon at a reasonable price. The FMU is about $700, which is quite a bit cheaper than some of the other 3rd party solutions I've seen which run between $1000 and $1600... and aren't near as user friendly or asthetically pleasing for that matter. Mounting brackets etc...

For event videographers it would be a great option to have, to be able to record that awesome 50MBps codec onto a second device in real time.

The other advantage would be, if a card, or the card slot encounters a problem, you can still record directly to the Flash unit and by pass the card slots all together, thus potentially saving the day in a worst case scenario situation with cards or card slots failing during a live shoot.

Oops, my bad! I was thinking of the Sony Z5/Z7s when I wrote about the HDV codec.
Sorry!

For event videographers it would be a great option to have, to be able to record that awesome 50MBps codec onto a second device in real time.The XF100/105 (like the XF300/305) not only has Relay Recording where when one card fills up then it continues recording to the second card it also has what Canon call Double Slot Recording (which the XF300/305 does not) where it records the same files to both cardssimultaneously thus providing an instant backup.

Proactive UK are now listing the models at £2295 and £2995, both plus VAT, for January delivery.

Creative video are listing the XF105 at £3250 plus vat but with a 20 December availability.

Just in time to put under the tree!


Mark