Hi,
Someone out there who REALLY knows what they're doing will know this. We "kinda" know what we're doing!

OK, when we shoot with the XF300 and import into FCPro (say through our pretty new MacBook Pro) - we've of course installed the Canon XF utility - everything works perfectly. FCPro just seems to 'know' to use ProRes422. No rendering necessary - everything works great!

BUT . . . the imported .mov files are about 30% LARGER than the original XF files the camera shoots.
No big deal, but I guess that's what ProRes does. And when we export from the FCPro timelne as a Self Contained movie, it plays at about 70mbs - despite the fact that the camera "shoots" at 50mbs!
So a little wasted disk space! No big deal!

We find on a MacBook Pro, it seems to import each clip about 1/2 as long as the actual clip. A 30 second clip takes about 15 seconds to import. GOOD!

BUT I was told when you're in the Log &Transfer window - if you click the little gear thing at the top - and change the 'codec' to "NATIVE" and not ProRes 422 - the files would be 1/3 smaller - AND would import much faster.

So we tried that, and they DO! OMG - smaller files by 30% and the import much FASTER then before, too. We love it!

EXCEPT . . . we're noticing an orange bar over the clips requiring, of course some serious rendering - which takes a long time and adds lots of "big" files in the 'render' folders :(

Well - seems like we're kinda going backwards here.

We tried opening a new timeline, dragging one clip of the "native" import into it hoping FCPro will change the parameters of the timeLine to match - but for some reason it doesn't! (It usually will.)

So if we go the easy setup route, could somebody tell me exactly what parameters to use to setup the TL so it doesn't have to be rendered. THEN, we're thinking we'll have the best of both worlds. Files 30% smaller and faster import times and smaller exported SC movies!

Does anyone know the "Easy Setup" parameters we need to tell FCPro what it's doing? I hope I'm saying all this correctly!

Thanks,
Larry

Prores is a more robust format, so I would use that for jobs that require lots of colour correction, but for day to day work it's great not having to transcode, and super fast. After using log & transfer with the "native" 50mb setting, I've been popping clips in a new sequence and letting FCP determine the sequence settings. They look like the attached (yes, a Sony XDCAM sequence).

When you create a new sequence, drop a clip into the timeline - FCP should ask you if you would like to change the sequence settings to match the clip. I've been editing the native files with a three year old macbook pro, and they work just fine, no rendering needed. Not sure why you're getting the orange line, good luck!

I have found that editing natively using the Log & Transfer it a lot quicker than pro res but when I export the timeline as a quick time I always get a lot of image degradation. I think its because FCP & Quick time dont really like .mxf files. Maybe I'm wrong but it would be great if Apple could release an update to sort this out. Hopefully we will see something from IBC. Who's going by the way?

Hi Mark.

You must be doing something wrong because the XF files are basically identical to XDCAM files and I've been exporting those for several years and the output looks fantastic. I've had the same experience with the XF files over the last two months, and they look great whether I'm exporting HD or downconverted SD. You need to check your workflow and find out what you need to change. There is no reason the XF files shouldn't look fantastic.

FYI, I always use native for import and never use ProRes for anything.

Thanks, Doug. Now that you've confirmed you've been doing it - importing as Native - I'll try again. Good to hear your experiences are so positive. I'll try it again. Thanks.

Can't wait for your new DVD on the XF to be released. I feel like it'll just save me weeks of experimenting and tinkering!

Larry

Thanks, Mark. I'll try to get this to work and tests the results. But you've at least made me suspicious! :)

Good!

Larry

Thanks, Josh. Not sure what I'm doing wrong - but I'll try again knowing you've done it!

Larry

HI Doug,
Thanks, Maybe you could tell us your workflow in a step by step way if you don't mind. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. It would be good to check it against your way of working so that I can get this sorted out as I would prefer to work native as well.
Many Thanks
Mark

Mark, I was afraid you'd ask that. :-)

I should have prefaced my first comments by saying that I only work with 30P. If you're doing 60i or 24P, then you might be right that the output looks bad. Fortunately, I have no use for those formats. I see now that you're in London, and I have no experience with 25P, but I'm sure the workflow is rock solid when done right. There's plenty of people who have been using XDCAM 25P for years with no complaints.

Maybe this workflow for NTSC DVD output will help. Vortex Media: VIDEO & PHOTO Tools and Training (http://www.vortexmedia.com/XDCAM_UPDATES.html)
It was originally written for XDCAM, but as I said, XF files are basically identical to XDCAM.

To get the XF footage into FCP, you should use Log & Transfer and choose "native" as the import setting.
Then you can start going down my 8 step workflow.

FYI, you can't accurately judge what you are seeing until you do your final output to DVD, Blu-ray, XDCAM optical , tape, etc. so so don't make any judgements based soley on what you are seeing on your computer screen. Just because it might not look ideal in FCP, Compressor, or QuickTime doesn't necessarily mean anything.


I hope that helps, I don't have the time right now to write something more elaborate than that.

Thanks Doug. Much appreciated
All the best
Mark

Working with native 50i-XF-Files and Final Cut Pro 7 since 2 month and there are nearly no problems.

It is faster then ProRes, the quality is great, no problems at all. The plug-in works fine and I only use XF-Utility for copying the files from CF-Card to harddisk.

By the way: The only thing I don´t understand: does it make sense to store the original MXF-Files beside the so called "native" files converted with the final-cut-plug-In?

How do you handle it?

Best wishes,
Reinhard

Hi Reinhard,
I just read your reply. Hmmmm . . . I'm just curious - I might be doing this wrong! We just "copy" the contents file of the CF card to a folder on an external firewire drive, than we import to FCPro.

But you're saying "and I only use XF-Utility for copying the files from CF-Card to harddisk."

When we use a firewire CF card reader (a Lexor) it seems to copy about 2 to 3 gig/minute.
Is there an advantage to using XF utility to copy the CF card contents to an external drive that I don't know about?

I figure, why clutter the workflow up with another "un needed" program like XF utility. Copying a folder is pretty straight forward - Is there something I should know?

Thank you,

Larry

Hi Larry,

you are not wrong, I´m wrong. I was just doubtful with the workflow and therefor I did it like Canon recommented. You are right: there is no need to use XF-Utility. I remember when I was working the first time with Canon DSLRs I also have used Canon Software. Of course you don´t need it just to copy files from the CF-Card onto a harddisk.

Anyway: Do you store also the "original MXF-Files" beside the so called "native" files imported via FCP? I´m not shure if they are really identically and therefor I store both. But thats double space:-(

Kind regards, Reinhard

There are several reasons to use XF Utility. I don't have time to explain why in detail, but I would not recommend skipping that step in your normal workflow.
Did you customarily throw away your 35mm negatives after you had your prints made?

I transfer the entire card (including file structure) to a hard drive (i). I then use Log and Transfer with the "native" setting to ingest the clips into final cut - this copies them to my capture scratch, a completely separate drive.

So I now have the "native" copies ready for use in my FCP project, and I have the original "negatives" as you put it Doug for safe keeping on another drive.

If there is some benefit of adding XF utility to this workflow it would be good to know - I can't see what I'm missing.

Josh,

Let me ask you this about the folder that is created in your first step:

Quote: "I transfer the entire card (including file structure) to a hard drive"

Have you ever tried to view those native files in XF Utility after you've copied them to your hard drive? For example, if you wanted to go back and check the metadata from one of those clips a few days or weeks after you made your backup copy?

Also, are you satifisfied with only having one copy of those native files? I'm not. I need two copies of every file I have on my computer ot I can't sleep at night.. have you ever tried to open any other copies of your backup files that have been copied to addtional hard drives, optical disks, or other devices?

Hi Doug, I appreciate your interest - I know you have a wealth of expertise.

Have you ever tried to view those native files in XF Utility after you've copied them to your hard drive? For example, if you wanted to go back and check the metadata from one of those clips a few days or weeks after you made your backup copy?

You can actually pop the "CONTENTS" folder straight back onto a CF card labelled "Canon XF" (it doesn't even have to have been formatted in the XF cam) and XF Utility reads the files and provides all metadata. For most of my work the metadata is not of vital importance - I make notes during the transfer stage - but I appreciate it would be useful in some instances.

Also, are you satifisfied with only having one copy of those native files?

At a minimum I have 3 copies during the edit - the copy on the CFs, the copy on the initial hard drive, and the copy FCP has transferred onto the scratch. For important work (and where I need to reuse the CFs in a hurry), I naturally make several copies of the "CONTENTS" folder on discrete drives. The question here is not about how many copies are made, but why it's better to use XF Utility when FCP seems to do a fast, effective job.

Have you ever tried to open any other copies of your backup files that have been copied to addtional hard drives, optical disks, or other devices?

I've swapped them between drives and haven't had any issues so far; I've only had the camera a couple of weeks but so far I haven't run into any issues with the media. Is there a reason to suspect a problem will arise?

Thanks, Josh

Josh,

All I'm going to say is that you are going run into some problems you don't anticipate right now.

Try this:

1) Use the Finder to copy and paste the CONTENTS folder from a couple of cards to a place on your hard drive. For example:

HDD > XF Backup Files > ABC Company > Card 1 > CONTENTS
HDD > XF Backup Files > ABC Company > Card 2 > CONTENTS
etc.

2) Now try to access any of those backup files on the HDD using XF Utility to view the clips, check the metadata, etc. Well, If you didn't use XF Utility to move the files to those nested folders in the first place, XF Utility will never be able to find them.

That's just one example of the workflow problems Canon has, and not even the biggest one. I've reported several problems to Canon and have been told by Canon USA that Canon in Japan has confirmed the problems I've found and will be issuing a new version of the software. When? In a few months.

The other poblems Canon has and the workarounds are too complicated to describe here. It is a topic of a whole chapter in my XF305/300 training DVD that will be released around October 12th. However, anyone who wants to spend the time can discover the same problems and soultions I've found.

The question here is not about how many copies are made, but why it's better to use XF Utility when FCP seems to do a fast, effective job.

Actually, it's about both.

The mov files you create with FCP are stripped of 99% of the metadata, and will also be many times harder to share with other editors who are using non-FCP editing systems. This is the exact same reason most XDCAM EX owners are meticulous about backing up their BPAV folders.

If none of that matters to you, then sure, you can just backup the MOV files and let the original native MXF files go into the trash. But that is not a workflow I recommend.

If someone agrees with me, and decides that backing up the original native files is important, then you have opened a can of worms regarding numerous workflow problems that Canon has created. Anyone who has experience with Sony BPAV files is going to be surprised to find they can't follow the same workflow with Canon's CONTENTS folders.

Thanks Doug, I appreciate what you're saying and how it can have implications when sharing; in my case this probably isn't something that applies, but it will obviously create headaches for others.

Did you customarily throw away your 35mm negatives after you had your prints made?

Of course I don´t throw away any negatives (even I think positive;-).

By the way: I think it´s not useful to compare physical film with cf- or harddisk-based digital video, which is much more sensitive and has to be copied for safety-reasons.

The question is still: is there any difference between the "original" XF300-generated MXF-Files and the mov´s imported with final cut pro (setting "native"). I want to know, which files I have to backup to have maximum safety and opportunities in future times.

At the moment I am backing up both, original files and "nativ" fcp-files. I don´t think this is very useful but unfortunatelly Canon doesn´t tell us which codec is used when importing MXF-Files with final cut (setting "native"). I hope, everybody can understand my question, even my knowledge of your language might be limited.

Thanks

Reinhard

The mov files you create with FCP are stripped of 99% of the metadata, and will also be many times harder to share with other editors who are using non-FCP editing systems. This is the exact same reason most XDCAM EX owners are meticulous about backing up their BPAV folders.

Sorry Doug,

you already answered one question.

Thanks,

Reinhard

Josh,

All I'm going to say is that you are going run into some problems you don't anticipate right now.

Try this:

1) Use the Finder to copy and paste the CONTENTS folder from a couple of cards to a place on your hard drive. For example:

HDD > XF Backup Files > ABC Company > Card 1 > CONTENTS
HDD > XF Backup Files > ABC Company > Card 2 > CONTENTS
etc.

2) Now try to access any of those backup files on the HDD using XF Utility to view the clips, check the metadata, etc. Well, If you didn't use XF Utility to move the files to those nested folders in the first place, XF Utility will never be able to find them.

That's just one example of the workflow problems Canon has, and not even the biggest one. I've reported several problems to Canon and have been told by Canon USA that Canon in Japan has confirmed the problems I've found and will be issuing a new version of the software. When? In a few months.

The other poblems Canon has and the workarounds are too complicated to describe here. It is a topic of a whole chapter in my XF305/300 training DVD that will be released around October 12th. However, anyone who wants to spend the time can discover the same problems and soultions I've found.

doug-

thanks for sharing your insights.

how do i get xf utility to move the contents file?

i have a situation where i am in the field w/only one cf card.

when it is filled, i want to do a dump to an external fw800 portable drive wired to my macbook pro. i was not planning on installing the xf utility siftware onto the macbook pro but rather use the finder to move the contents file to an external fw800 drive.

are you saying i need to only use the xf utility to move the contents of the compact flash card to the external hard drive rather than the mac finder?

and if i don't use the xf utility when i get the external hard drive back to my shop and connected to my mac pro and the final cut software, i will have a problem?

any and all info is greatly appreciated, especially since i'm using the camera first thing sunday morning!

be well

rob katz
smalltalk productions.

I only got hold of XF utility yesterday (with another loan camera). It looks extremely promising and its metadata capabilities are very helpful, especially when linked with the ‘User Memo’ functionality.

There seems to be a bug in that it does not create the promised virtual media, but card copies are performed flawlessly. I’m looking forward to seeing a .01 update that will hopefully have it working correctly.

At this point in time, I am a great fan or creating copies of all cards on a Bak drive. Although it does use additional space, it allows re-ingestion of ‘raw’ camera files if required.

doug-

thanks for sharing your insights.

how do i get xf utility to move the contents file?

i have a situation where i am in the field w/only one cf card.

when it is filled, i want to do a dump to an external fw800 portable drive wired to my macbook pro. i was not planning on installing the xf utility siftware onto the macbook pro but rather use the finder to move the contents file to an external fw800 drive.

are you saying i need to only use the xf utility to move the contents of the compact flash card to the external hard drive rather than the mac finder?

and if i don't use the xf utility when i get the external hard drive back to my shop and connected to my mac pro and the final cut software, i will have a problem?

any and all info is greatly appreciated, especially since i'm using the camera first thing sunday morning!

be well

rob katz
smalltalk productions.

in response to my own query-

i just did two long days with the xf305 picking up b-roll shots, real run & gun stuff.

aside from a list of likes/dislikes which i will eventual compile, i did manage to load up my one sandisk extreme 16gb cf card four separate times each day which resulted in four separate data dumps.

i loaded the canon xf utility software on my macbook pro and using file->backup was able to direct the camera which was tethered via usb to the mbp to find a portable fw800 hard drive which is where the files now reside. using the osx finder, i also did a "copy" from the xf305 to the fw800 drive. with a full card-40min-i was able to backup in approx 10min.

using log and transfer, i am now loading the footage into final cut pro.

it is very nice to work with a new camera and make discoveries about a new tool.

be well

rob
smalltalk productions.

it is very nice to work with a new camera and make discoveries about a new tool.

Hi Rob,

nice to hear, that you are happy with camera and XF Utility.

I´m not.

We are working with different computers (Macbook pro + Powermacs). That means, we´ve installed XF Utility for several times.

Unfortunatelly it is not possible to get access to stored MXF-files with XF-Utitlity from other computers.
Until now I couldn´t find a method to re-reel mxf-files.

Maybe this is not a problem, maybe it is.
We´ll see.

Kind regards,

Reinhard

The new Canon Whitepaper does not recommend XF-Utility for using XF300 together with Final Cut. Interesting!


Canon Digital Learning Center - Canon White Papers: Beyond the Manual (http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=1787)


Instead of backup via XF Utility they recommend:

"Create a disk image (DMG file) of the memory card that may be mounted and used for Log and Transfer operations in place of the physical card – archiving all your footage, and freeing up your memory cards for immediate re-use."


Best regards,

REinhard

The reason is that EOS Utility v1.0 had a few issues (as most v1.0 software does). The 1.1 updater fixes this and allows creation of a backup via the utility in log and transfer.

Important to note that 1.0 needs to be installed and the updater is applied to it.

I still have several issues with 1.1. As for example: when you transfer your clips with XF Utility from your cf-card to your macbook and sync the macbook with your stationary editing-computer, it is not possible to get access from this computer (that runs XF Utility, too) to your files.

I have been adopting the same method for downloading and ingesting video footage Josh.

I tend to only format the CF cards once the card is completely full and backed up onto another hard drive. I find that archiving the 'negatives' is therefore easier to manage as whole CF cards.
If however I were to download footage, and then film some more on the same CF card - backing up the CONTENTS folder and then ingesting that footage from the backup drive into Final Cut could become an issue because of the indifferent JOURNAL and index files.

This can be combatted by copying the contents of the CLIP*** folder on the CF card and then pasting only folders that don't already exist on the backup drive. After that, one can copy and replace the JOURNAL folder and index file into the backup CLIP*** folder. Final Cut will then recognise the new clips that have not already been ingested in Log & Transfer, and ingesting resumes as normal. This is especially good if you use Automatic Transfer.

Has anyone else adopted the Canon XF Utility as part of their workflow? I too am keen to learn from your experiences.


I'm currently creating a travel series on YouTube for the next three months. You may be interested:
YouTube - Downunder World Challenge Online! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcI3WOhm11I)