When you bought your camera did you buy it with the ENTIRE camera or did it just come with the body and you had to pay extra for the lens and viewfinder?

Also, how much did you pay for the ENTIRE camera including lens and battery and viewfinder? What is the best deal you saw it for and where did you get it from?

I don't know of anyone yet who has purchased only the body. The standard XL1S kit contains everything you need to start shooting video right out of the box, including a battery and tape.

The best deals are available from my website sponsors... see the banner ads on Sponsors page at dvinfo.net.

Don't fall into the "lowest price" trap,

I guess I need to send mine back, I didn't get a blank tape! Let's see, where did I put Christines number?

Ed Frazier

Hey Ed, I'll send you that tape... Christine is a busy person... ;-)

When I got my XL1s I didn't get a tape as well plus I didn't get an cleaning tape ether. The XI1 old you get that but not with the XL1s I think.
I got mine from Christine from ZGC.

Cleaning tapes are *always* extra... I've never heard of a cleaning tape packaged with any camcorder.

Guess Canon is no longer packaging a blank DV tape now that the XL1S is out... there used to be a 30min cassette in the old XL1 kit.

I received a cleaning tape and a 30min tape packaged with my XL1 when I got it last November 16 2000.

Chris...why not go for the cheapest price?

I'm not Chris, but maybe I can add a little bit.

Why not the lowest price? In the video and photography world, there are alot of crooks (terrible business practices, fraudulent advertising.. bait-n-switch, etc). You'll see their ads in many of the publications you'd expect a photographer/videographer, amateur and professional, to read.

Check www.resellerratings.com for some actual user feedback on these low-ballers.

The XL-1S standard kit does not have the 30 minute cassette tape like the XL-1 kit had. The cleaning tape was never included with the kit. Also, to respond to the question about the "body only" XL-1S kit, see www.zgc.com for the various kits available. There are only a handful of Canon dealers who are allowed by Canon to sell the body only kits. They allow you to canibalize your current XL-1 of its viewfinder and lens to use on the new body, OR you can get the new Canon 16x manual servo zoom instead of getting the standard Canon 16x auto lens that comes in the standard XL-1S kit. In addition, with the body kit you then have a choice of either getting the black and white viewfinder or the color viewfinder. Various body kits are available through ZGC, check out the website to see the details.

FWIW....

I purchased my XL1s for significantly less than the advertised retail price thru a webstore in NY. The camera arrived in a sealed factory carton with the entire XL1s kit, as advertised. I've had no problems, whatsoever. I also ordered a third party, hi capacity battery which works excellently in this cam. Despite the horror stories, in 20 years of doing business with mail order, discount photographic equipment, I've NEVER had a problem.

I too have made several photo/video related purchases on the web and by mail order with few if any real problems. For my XL1S purchase, I decided to go with ZGC.com based on the strong recomendation from Chris and others on this board. While their price was significantly less than the advertised retail price, the piece of mind in knowing that any problems, should they occur, would likely be quickly resolved was also important.

I've made positive comments about ZGC in other threads and I can assure you that I get nothing out of it. I'm also not trying to "brown nose" Chris Hurd in any way. It was a pleasure doing business with ZGC and I simply want to pass that along to others that are contemplating spending this amount of money on a web purchase.

BTW: No retail stores of any type in my area carried the XL1 so I had to do a lot of research on the Internet before feeling comfortable with the purchase. The first one I actually held in my hands was the one I ordered. I don't necessarily recommend that others do it that way, but it has worked out for me. By the time my camera arrived, I had completely read the XL1S User's Manual at least twice and read hundreds of comments, both pro and con from users, wanna-be users and XL1 haters from all over the world.

Ed Frazier

Howdy from Texas,

The deal with ZGC and my other sponsors is, when you make a purchase from them, there is a relationship there if you want it. These other places, once you buy from them, they never want to hear from you again... unless you want to buy something else. And then they won't remember who you are. I can't emphasize enough, it's service after the sale, and an established point-of-sale relationship that you're buying into with ZGC and my other sponsors.

Sure, not *every* other outfit out there is a rip-off joint. Sure, there are other places to buy from. But it's a touchy subject because a handful of bad or questionable retailers can ruin the overall experience for everybody. People hear the horror stories, they become reluctant to buy even though they're ready. A lot of 'em come to me, asking, "where is the best deal" or "who has the lowest price."

Who has the lowest price? The rip-off artists... they advertize ridiculously low prices, to get you to call. Once you're on the phone, they jack up the price with $100 shipping, useless accessories, or charging for components which should have been included in the first place.

Where is the best value for your money, is the real question. That's the one thing I try to impress upon people who ask me where they should buy from, and it's why I have a working relationship with the businesses you'll find on my Sponsors page at dvinfo.net.

I've never asked anything of the many visitors who come to my websites, but if you want to give something back to the XL1 Watchdog, then what you can do is buy your gear from my sponsors, because it helps to keep the site going. And not only will you be doing me a favor, but you'll be helping yourself out as well.

Much respect,

Chris...

What you are saying is probably good advice. I especially can understand that it's a good way to support your site, which I use and appreciate. Please don't misunderstand me and I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Nevertheless, after looking at ZGC's prices, I have trouble justifying the extra $1000 cost of an XL1s. For a small operation like mine, this is enough to make or break the decision to buy. It seems the "standard excuse" offered by retailers that offer little to no discount is "service and support with a smile". What else can they offer to justify the prices they charge? (or to cover the overhead they've incurred with that new building and expensive advertising department) Another example of what I'm saying is the Canon FD to XL lens adapter they sell under the Optek brand. There is no glass or electronics, just a machined piece of steel for $450. This kind of attitude is fine when customers are huge corporations that waste more $$$'s on paperclips than I'll ever earn in my lifetime, but, as a small business and small consumer, I can't justify their excuse of service with a smile. If something goes wrong, that's why Canon has a warantee and service address. Honestly, I don't much care whether the proctologist is smiling or not when he pulls on that rubber glove.

Hi Bill - Here are a couple of examples why people might pay a little more ($1,000 more?! Would love to know where that figure came from. If that's the case, we ARE too high!)

Assume you buy a camera in a prepackaged kit assembled at the factory in Japan AND buy a new Canon 16x lens, again prepackaged. You try out the 16x lens and decide is just isn't for you because you didn't know going in that it doesn't focus closer than 1 meter. You want to return it. Would your vendor take the lens back and give you a refund?

If you're a professional videographer and need the equipment at the last minute -- which is par for the course in this industry -- would your source work with you to be sure that the equipment you needed arrived at the hotel on the day you needed it? And if FedEx screwed up and didn't get it there could you depend on the vendor tracking it down quickly to get it delivered to your next stop in another location?

Regarding expense of equipment: I think ALL this stuff is way too expensive and so is high-end still photography equipment. (Have you priced a 4x5 large format camera recently? -- whoa, but I digress) Part of the reason that the Canon FD to XL adapter is so expensive is because it's made in England (everything is more expensive there) and then it's imported into the US which adds more cost. OpTex does not made 1000s of a specialty item so the cost per item is more on fewer pieces.

Vendors who offer the camera much lower than our currently quoted price of $3,700 for the standard kit dip below the dealer price. In that case, there has to be a scam going one way or another. I've heard horror stories from people calling us after the fact saying their cards were charged service fees, etc. that in one case added up to $6,000. You were one of the lucky ones who found a reputable source. You might want to share your resource with the Watchdog Community.

Happy Holiday!

Thanks Bill,

First, I think it's important to draw a distinction between what does and does not constitute a good price. As Americans, we've become accustomed to "rock bottom" pricing schemes through mass media marketing, that we come to expect it (look at automobile dealerships for example). I think that's a serious mistake in this industry.

So I have to disagree with your point of view wondering how companies like ZGC can "justify" their pricing. Justify? As long as they're selling at or even a little below the MSRP, there's no "justification" required. What I want to know is, how do those companies who sell *above* the MSRP justify their prices. How do those companies who sell *below dealer cost* justify their prices. That's what raises my eyebrows and causes me to steer clear. Selling at or just below MSRP is towing the mark -- no justification required! It's the *honest* way of doing business!

I'm happy you found a good deal elsewhere, but so many people fall into the "lowest price" trap purloined by utterly unscrupulous outfits, offering "new XL1S's at $3200" or a GL1 for $1600. Ridiculous! And unfortunately very common.

You were smart enough to know exactly what you're looking for, but a lot of new folks will rely on a company like ZGC not because they have a new building but because they have an educated staff, people who know the gear and know the business. That's vital, and not something you get by paying them $7.50 per hour or charging $20 over dealer cost. That sort of intelligence combined with a smooth, honest, reliable business operation and associated overhead costs money. The MSRP builds in enough of a margin that such a company can run properly, with an expert staff and still make a profit (remember our capitalistic values... we're in business to make a profit... that's the idea).

If you think about it, Bill, I could turn your argument around and ask you, why should I hire you to shoot my wedding, when my Uncle Charlie can do it for free with his VHS-C camcorder? Not that you're shooting weddings; besides I'm already married. The answer is, I hire you because of the associated value, and value is *not* directly related to price.

Regarding the price of that piece of machined steel you mentioned, it's important to note that's a highly specialized item of which maybe a hundred or so will ever get made and sold. It's not a mass-produced product; there's engineering, shipping etc. to pay for, plus you're paying for the rarity of it. Highly specialized always equals somewhat expensive.

You might want to consider taking your lens and camera to a local machinist to turn out a custom adapter for you. It probably won't cost $450 but I bet it won't be cheap either.

One thing I learned a long time ago is that all this gear is expensive to begin with... it's all so relatively uncommon and specialized, hence high-priced. Look at Canon's 3D lens... eight grand for that thing, made one at a time by hand in Japan. And you know what? They can't keep up with the demand!

Everything is relative... I don't consider the money I'm paying out for this gear to be buying "service with a smile," I consider it to be buying into a relationship with an expert, competent staff who will gladly help me out in a jam, find the rare oddball pieces of gear I need, help with a purchase decision, and best of all *not rip me off* but do business in a high-profile, high class and trustworthy manner.

You may not need that, especially if you're smart enough to fish out the good deals and all, but I'm not like that... I need help when it comes time to spending a big wad of cash, and a lot of other folks need help as well (I know because I keep hearing from 'em). That's why I always recommend ZGC and my other sponsors.

Howdy from Texas,

Barb Lowry said to Bill Ravens:

<< You were one of the lucky ones who found a reputable source. You might want to share your resource with the Watchdog Community. >>

Actually I prefer that we not do that. To avoid any confusion I'd rather just stick with recommending Watchdog sponsors.

No disrespect to Bill, but for the first couple years that I ran the Watchdog, I received a *lot* of e-mails from folks who told me they bought their cameras because of my site (see the no-longer-updated "Good Dog" page on the Watchdog).

Nothing wrong with that and I'm happy for those people, but it meant that somewhere somebody was making money from camera sales thanks to my efforts. The site will always be free but I get a funny feeling knowing that profits are being made from it by people I don't even know.

Now that I'm older, grumpier and more experienced, I really want to steer as much business as possible that results from my site towards my sponsors only. I won't make it a rule or anything, but please consider it a *strong suggestion.* We're playing in my yard here, so I can be unreasonable if I feel like it.

Much respect,

Barbara....

Since I started this diatribe, it's only fair that I qualify the statements I made. My purchase price was $3500 for the XL1s kit, including an $85.00 polarizer. I seem to have misread your own price posting if the difference is less than the $1000 I claimed. The website for this supplier can easily be found by doing a websearch on Pricewatch.com. I do not particularly care to advertize for them, but, if someone REALLY wants to know who it is, I'd be glad to respond to a private email query to me. Your point about post-sale support is well made. My supplier would certainly NOT provide the service you provide. If I was in need of this kind of support, there is NO QUESTION that I would have gone to a full service dealer like ZGC. Likewise, their response was not overnight. However, as I'm sure many readers of this forum know, the realities of financial survival in this business are exactly that....survival.

My own video business, fortunately, is not my only means of gainful employment. In fact, it is barely gainful, sometimes a total loss, but, I do it because I love it. So, it's only fair for me to admit that I have the luxury of naming my own terms, when it comes to the videography vocation. If this means I'm not really a professional, oh well.

As I said in my previous post, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I would just like to point out that every consumer has to balance their own needs against the cost. I made my own choice and want to point out that there are a lot of choices available. I'm impressed with your attention to this forum and you will get some of my business.

Thanks for the info you provided, I was not aware of all the support you provide.

Feliz Navidad,

Bill Ravens
Chalchihuitl Productions
Santa Fe, NM

I agree Chris...thanx for validating my own feelings on this subject.

Bill

Chris - Sorry Chris, I do understand your proprietary feeling about resources for product now that you explained it.

Bill - Thanks for your response -- one last note on this subject just for fun: ZGC is not a huge operation, which is why people never get lost in a phone bank when they call us! So call anytime and ask for Christine.

Cheers,

I got my XL1s and MA-200 from ZGC. They are the best too me. I had something wrong with my XL1s and they were right there to help me out. Finding out there was nothing wrong with my XL1s ZGC was willing to make me happy and offered to give me my money back after had my XL1s for 2 mouths.

Now that’s what I call a good business. ZGC is about 45 min's from me and when I was there I felt like I was at home with family. They are great folks over there and I plan of buying more stuff for my XL1s soon from them. Thanks ZGC for your kind help and support.

Mark Chiocchi

Not to beat a dead horse here but......

I bought a 16x manual lens from ZGC last week.

I made the purchase at the last minute, and of course needed it right away for a couple of shoots.

ZGC had it on my door the next day, at no extra charge.

Any company that responds to my needs in that manner will see my credit card numbers again in the future.

Mike Avery

i just purchased an xl1s from an online vendor and it was 2700 after shipping. however, i dont think that it includes anything but the lense and body (despite what the sales department said). i havent received the camera yet however, the 1300 below average price was worth it to me. they were not an authorized dealer (i asked, the guy said he "didnt know") and the service was verry rude. i live in the boondocks and have only been to nyc once but the guy seemed like he was doing me a favor. if i had the money, i would have spent the money at a more reputable dealer, but oh well.

some resources i used were canons customer service in finding if they were authorized (i think its 1800-GOCANON but i'm probly wrong) and the online better business beauro (so i cant spell, sue me) to find where they are(another detail they wouldnt give me).

as everyone else has said, yes you can get cheap deals but its a hassle.

fletch

Australian consumers are quite lucky as we have an option of buying a "PRO" pack offered by Canon Australia.

The Pro-pack contains your standard kit that gets your running out of the box and adds:

HC-3100 Hard case
CH-910 Dual Battery holder/charger
Extra BP 930 battery

For an extra $800 (AUD) = ($400USD) Its quite cheap considering you'd be paying almost double the price if you were to buy it at retail prices.

Does anyone have any comments about the MA-200 attachment? How does it feel in terms of balancing the camera with the CH-910 put on the back? Will the overall weight put an extra 1kg?

Cheers,

Ethan

I live in New York City and we have an account with B&H. Since we have a re-seller certificate, we pay no sales tax. B&H has consistently the lowest prices around among the "reputable" vendors. Today I priced an XL1S - ZGC $4,400, B&H $3,750. Still, I might go with ZGC. Why? For one thing - B&H will only sell the XL1S with the 16X lens. Period. ZGC will sell it in any configuration I need. If I want it with the 3X lens, ZGC will sell it. The price is a bit higher than I would wish but - and here's the second reason - I seem to get really personal attention from ZGC. I think there's been more personal communication with Christine after two emails than 10 years of in-store shopping at B&H where I've never seen the same sales person twice. Now if ZGC could only lower the price.... (is hagglig allowed?)

Oh, and by the way Chris,

>>If you think about it, Bill, I could turn your argument around and ask you, why should I hire you to shoot my wedding, when my Uncle Charlie can do it for free with his VHS-C camcorder? ... The answer is, I hire you because of the associated value, and value is *not* directly related to price. <<

In the industry our company is known as "very good but expensive." I will take the liberty to borrow your words on associated value. I get quite pissed when I hear the "but expensive" after the "very good." It's the old adage - you get what you pay for.

I got my XL1S at ZGC and paid $3,700. Plus two free shits and better service than B&H.

Don't get me wrong B&H has OK service and support, but not all the time. Sometimes you get "JO" that don't care what you are calling for.

I only buy from B&H if ZGC dose not have what I am looking for.

<<<-- Originally posted by RockFord : I got my XL1S at ZGC and paid $3,700. Plus two free shits and better service than B&H. -->>>

Was that with lens? I can't understand why it would cost so much more to buy it with the 3X instead of the 16X. I'm asking because at $3700 with the 3X I'm sure to buy it.

I agree with your opinion of B&H. We deal with them because they are cab ride away and their prices are always among the lowest. Not because of service.

Tell me a little more about your $3700 for the XL1 from ZGC. Maybe a phone call can make all the difference.

I got mine when they first came out I got the XL1S with the 16x IS II Video Lens for $3.700 and the MA 200 I don't remeber what I paid for that.

I also have the Wide 3x Lens. I got that off ebay +10 mint for $800 bucks and just got the new 16x Manual Servo Zoom Lens as well from ZGC and they gave me 2 more shirts when I picked it up.

I also have a GL1 and just pick up the WD-58 wide for it.

The XL1S 16x IS II Video Lens is a better lens than the old one that came with the old XL1 it sells at B&H for $1,599.95 where the wide 3x sells for $1,209.95 and the old XL1 lens sell for $1,349.95.

Ozzie - Will ZGC haggle? Christine is the best at giving people a reasonable package price for your wish list of goodies.

It's hard to come down on the price of an individual Canon item -- camera or accessory -- because there are so many sources out there selling the stuff. Most everyone familiar with the Watchdog knows that if you look long and hard enough on the Internet you'll find just about any of these items at or near dealer cost, which Canon and reputable dealers are not happy about. To repeat the same cautionary warning: watch out for sneaky hidden costs when the price looks really attractive. But I digress.

That wish list of goodies I mentioned means that most videographers need more than just the Canon XL-1S out of the box depending on your chosen creative goal with the camera. Make a list of what other items you need in addition to the camera and ZGC will put together a special package price for you for all items.

Happy New Year!

Ozzie - I want to clarify for Watchdog viewers that the $4,400 price you were quoted by ZGC included the camera body, viewfinder and Canon 3x wide angle zoom lens.

B&H doesn't put together special camera packages like ZGC does, so the quotes might not be for the same items. Let me know if I read your posting incorrectly.

Every price we quote for customized packages will differ because the items in each person's wish list differs. We do, however, list prices for ZGC's special combination camera body/16x lens/viewfinder combos listed on our website.

Rockford:

You're just the one I need to talk to. You say that you have the new 16x IIS standard lens as well as the new 16x manual lens.

Since I will not be able to afford both, please tell me which of the lenses you find most invaluable and why. I'm leaning toward the new manual lens, but many posts have touted the benefits of the image stabilizer that comes with the standard lens.

Thanks.

-- Alan

Alan,

I'm not Rockford but let me put in my 2 cents worth. I've been working with the 16X and now I'm buying a 3X for a shoot. I can't comment on the 16X auto vs manual because I haven't used the manual. I rarely shoot in auto mode regardless of lens used. So if I had to choose I would go with the manual 16X.

Now for the 3X - an image stabilizer is really not necessary with a wide angle lens - any wide angle lens - since you're always going to be so wide that any slight movement will be minimal. With the 16X zoomed in all the way the stabilizer comes in VERY handy.

.02 cents

gratedcheese,

The stabilizer in the 16x IIS standard lens is great. I use it hand held in the church and use the 16x manual zoom lens on the tripod.

The 16x manual lens is a very nice lens, way easier to focus the lens. There is no need to have a B&W viewfinder with this lens.

The main resin I got this lens is on the tripod I can't use the auto focus cuz it goes in and out too much. Not that it don’t work good just that when I am shooting the reception my XL1s is 7 feet in the air on a tripod and when people walk in front it goes in and out.

The 16x manual lens I use a Focus Controller that's manual so I set it and it stays there.

The 2 ND filters and the back focus help out a lot as well.

When I got my XL1S when it first came out must likely I would have got the 16x manual zoom lens first then got the 16x IIS standard lens down the road.

Its up to you; If your going to shoot hand held work then go with the 16x IIS standard lens for the stabilizer.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, guys!

However, your posts have given rise to some more questions.

Concerning the 16x IIs and image stabilization: I've heard that if you're using this lens and are expecting to do something like a pan (even though it might be a hand-held pan) that you should turn OFF the stabilization feature because it'll screw up the shot. It that's true, then is the stabilization feature only good for close-in shots that are "held" for a while? (IF the above is true, that will cinch my going with the manual lens).

Rockford: you mentioned that the 16x manual is so good that you do not need the B&W finder, which is the finder I was considering. Is that lens really that sharp?

Ozzie: Could I kill two birds with one stone by getting the 13x lens and using a 2x converter? Or would that just be messing too much with the optics -- ie. would it cut down on the quality of the finished product?

Thanks for your help, guys!!

Grated,

>>Could I kill two birds with one stone by getting the 13x lens and using a 2x converter? Or would that just be messing too much with the optics -- ie. would it cut down on the quality of the finished product? <<

My experience with converters is that you take a quality hit. How big of a hit depends on what you're shooting - shoot in low light and the lens will be much slower since the extender renders the lens effectively one to two stopts slower. Shooting in bright light the quality loss is less apparent. My advise is to have a 2x converter but use it sparingly. I would not recommend using it regularly as part of the lens.

If you really need long lenses, why not get the Canon lens adapter and use the regular 35mm lenses? This way you won't be degrading the quality, in fact, you might even be improving it.

Gratedcheese,

Let me put it this way. I had the B&W finder before I got the manual lens, once I seen how sharp it was I sold the B&W finder.

Rockford, Ozzie:

Thanks for you advice.

RockFord: How about the question I posted above about whether you have to disable stabilization on the 16x IIS lens if you are doing stuff like zooming, panning or otherwise moving the lens from one subject to another?

-- Alan

I never do

Yeah Bill, as Barbara suggests, how'bout sharing the name of the dealer you have had success with?

For my part, I have had no trouble with B&H and other places in NYC that I have called. The ones I talk to don't engage in the scummy practices mentioned here and in other threads. But I do know that those guys exist.

I like dealers in NYC because UPS ground is only a few bucks and the item still arrives the next day. Plus no sales tax cuz they are shipping to CT. Since there is hardly any place in my area where you can look at an XL1 or anything besides entry-level consumer machines, it matters little where the dealer is located. I'll be glad to give Chris's sponsors a try when shopping for my next equipment.

OK I hadn't seen the page with Chris's reply about not touting other dealers...makes sense. It certainly seems worth giving ZGC a try, especially if looking for a special package.

As for Uncle Charlie doing it for free with his VHS-C...you couldn't PAY ME to let someone like that take on the responsibility of shooting my important event, that's why we have professionals. Perhaps I wouldn't hire Steven Spielberg with a truckload of Panavisions either. Let the price fit the need.

In the grand scheme of things, a few pennies' difference between what two dealers charge for an XL1 don't amount to a hill of beans when you consider that we can now buy such a tool that gives us performance we could only dream about at thee times the price just a couple of years ago. This includes propelling many people into business/creative opportunities they never even imagined. I know I have made back the cost of my camera many times over so far, and I am a long way from wearing it out.

That's my 2 cent philosophy for now.