I'm sure this has probably been covered in here in the past but I couldn't find any threads.
This is my first year in business (even though I filmed and edited for a while) on my own. Everything is going great but I find myself struggling with DVD changes.

When I finish the wedding film, i send the couple a draft copy and I offer them one free set of changes before i create the definite product....
I've found that a lot of people that are more than happy with their film tend to include changes which are not changes but additions to the DVD!
or maybe changes in a particular part of the filming that i've edited to music of their choice and they change their mind, etc...

So i guess the questions are: do you offer free changes at all?
where's the limit to our artistic choices? are we not hired to give our artistic impression of the day? or are we pure machines that just film and put the footage on discs?

any views appreciated

thanks

I currently own the sony z5 and sony V1

I was going to go the dlsr route and now someone has offered me £1500 for my v1 ( B cam) does anyone think this is a good move . To replace i was thinking t2i?

Obviously it would change my work flow but i hardly use the v1 at weddings and I am a sucker for the the look

Kind regards

Luke

I don't ever send a proof DVD .
when they get the DVD it is the final.
The only time I will make a change will be only if I made an error.
If I had to do changes it will be not for free.

"where's the limit to our artistic choices? are we not hired to give our artistic impression of the day? or are we pure machines that just film and put the footage on discs? "

If someone booked me for there wedding day it is because they saw my movies before and liked my style.
So when they get their DVD, they should expect to see something similar.

Guillermo, when we deliver the final product to the couple it is the final product. We will correct any errors free of charge (and errors must be reported to us within 7 days of delivery). All other changes/revisions/additions require a quote.

I would highly recommend you get away from sending a draft and asking for changes. Too many couples will feel they need to look for changes, thus creating more work for you on a product that if you had delivered it as the 'final product', the couple would have been happy with. I would also make sure that in your contract it somehow states that you have complete authority over the final editing decisions.

We've been creating wedding films for 7 years now and not once have we ever done a pre-screening or delivered a draft copy. Trust me, you'll love it and your couples will love it too.

I've never sent a draft copy. I figure they hired me because I'm a professional and they have seen my work so they know what they're getting and they have enough trust in me as a professional do do the job properly. Besides, they're not professionals so why ask them.
IF I do credits and spell a name wrong (it happens once in a while even though I check the names 97 times) that I'll do for no chage as long as it's within the alotted time frame which is 14 days from date of receipt. Since I send the DVDs via priority mail with a tracking number I know when they get it so that's a no brainer. Other than that anything they might want changed, they pay. Funny no one ever wants changes. :-)

thanks for your comments guys.
The more i think about it, the more convinced i am that's the way to go. Offering changes, projects drag forever, for months in some cases and your right sometimes they feel like they have to ask for changes.
It's amazing the amount of stuff that i've learnt about business in general in just one year, next year I'll do things very differently

I take an entirely different approach. About two months before the wedding we send the couple a lengthy questionnaire, most of which is to do with when and where we start and stop recording on the day and what of that material they want to see in their video. eg hymns in or not, homily in or not, receiving line in or not etc. We also ask them to specify the music from which we choose to include in the programme and which they supply on CD.

We make it quite clear in our website and brochure that we want their complete satisfaction.

At the first showing we show the whole programme non-stop. This is what most viewers will see and shows them the dynamic of the whole piece. Then we offer to go through any section again. Any changes which are not as described in their questionnaire answers we note clearly.

They sign the alterations sheet which also explicitly approves what isn't noted for changing. We send them a copy of the signed document.

When the changes are made we show them the changes for their approval - unless we've cocked up again in which case we approve the process) they sign the whole disk off as approved. This time they sign the actual disk. This becomes our master and is used for all copies, ensuring no downstream errors.

It probably sounds like more work but more than 80% of our work is approved at first edit because the questionnaire is so precise.

Clients like it because they feel they're in control, but showings are always under our control and in our presence; clients can be discouraged from demanding changes which won't work and because they sign off everything that isn't for change the need for anything other than one re-edit is very very rare.

Any changes outside the agreement eg changes to changes already made are charged at £110 plus tax per hour actual. Since re-chaptering/re-authoring alone takes 2 hours we've only had the question arise once.

I believe I have this attitude because I come from a corporate/commercial/broadcast background where the client is right even when he's wrong. It's an approach which is certainly easier to sell than the "this is my style; if you don't like it, don't buy it" philosophy.

That said, I have a sneaking admiration for Don, Travis et al who obviously manage to pull it off - and probably avoid a little more re-editing than me; but it just isn't my style.

Unlike Philip, I have a clause in my contract that allows me to make all the edit decisions and the bride gets her final DVD without any draft copy at all. This was prompted by a bride who spend 3 days (FULL) with me editing out every tiny little defect she could find in her clips and they were not technical ones either!! She didn't like the way her hair had fallen over her face, or that her hubby-to-be was touching his face....it was a nighmare that I didn't get paid for.

Obviously I will re-edit anything that the bride would class as un-tasteful but that has never arisen as I usually spot it before she does (we had a situation where the priest forgot the couple's names and the guest prompting him was carefully omitted to the bride's delight!!)

I would say as long as you carefully edit a normal wedding, a draft is un-necessary and I have never had a bride (apart from the one above 3 years ago) who has ever given me anything but glowing comments!!!

If the wedding is a "bridezilla" affair (luckily I haven't ever had one) or there is the need for the bride to decide about dubious footage then it might be an idea to do a consultation with a draft of the offending pieces on DVD but 99.9% of the time I really don't think a draft copy is necessary because more often than not the bride will try to look for changes as she is expecting you to find at least half a dozen!!!

I know Philip does things differently but that's my take on the issue and it certainly does save time.

BTW: I have a VERY patient wife who insists on watching my weddings from start to finish so it's good to have another opinion before the bride gets the copy!!

Chris

This is developing into an interesting thread. One thing I'd be interested to know, especially from Chris, Don, Travis school (and I use the term as one refers to the Dutch school of painting etc) is whether their approach in which they have total control tempts or lures them into or towards formulaic production.

I don't mean the outstanding wedding when the weather's kind, the couple are young and handsome, when the speeches are inspiring and not lifted straight from the Internet and when the couple's first dance is more than a matter of holding each other's bum cheeks in time to the music - but the usual run-of-the-mill job.

Perhaps I have an over-active self flagellatory gene, but I still feel driven to do something different in each programme and knowing it might be completely rejected is, I suppose, some sort of challenge.

If I had the confidence of the "I did it my way" school, I fear I might look back in five years time and wonder if I couldn't have done slightly better.

Chris has touched on why he took the decision to take that direction; since I may be in a minority amongst those who've been doing it longer I'd be interested in why others did so too.

We only deliver the final copy. Our contract states the client has 7 days to request any changes. It also states we have complete creative control.
In the 8 years we've been doing wedding videos I've only had 3 customers come back and request changes. Ironically it has always been from one group of people that always want more, "why was there no footage of people standing around the bar?" (because its not interesting to watch) etc... So we're conveniently booked when they call.

Hi Philip

My edit decisions are probably totally different from most because I do most of my creative work in camera.. if it sounds strange I'll tell you why!! I developed the style around 20 years back when I was using full VHS cameras and decided that the couple needed the best quality copy possible and as you are aware, shooting on VHS and analogue editing loses a good 20% of resolution. What I used to do is pre-shoot the titles at home and then basically shoot the entire wedding in camera with the view that I didn't need to edit...at the end of the wedding it was a matter of ejecting the cassette and getting paid and the bride took her wedding video on honeymoon and it was a 1st generation copy!!! I know it was a strange way of doing things but it guaranteed instant payment and NO editing and generation loss!!!

Old habits die hard so I still tend to shoot with a view that I don't have to edit and each clip I shoot in theory can simply be assemble edited into a DVD. I tend to plan each sequence so I seldom have an awful lot of editing to do where I have just used one camera. Of course the moment I have used both cams then editing comes into play as I have two video streams to contend with. You guys are using two or three operators so the editing side becomes far more complex.

My editing is probaby formulaic because most shots are already pre-planned at the shoot. Then again a wedding is a fairly sequential event especially if you are shooting documentary style like I do (all except the photoshoot which you don't do) things do fall into place sequentially. I break my production into event clips so I'm seldom editing more than 20 min at a time and if I have done my job right a clip might only need a couple of trims and a few crossfades. Also because I do next day editing each event is still fresh in my mind. If a wedding hasn't been exceptionally noteworthy and was a run-of-the-mill affair, yes, I probably do edit it without making it really different. If it's out of the ordinary then the things that make it special are rather captured at that moment rather than creative editing.

Sorry, but I tend to be boring when it comes to creative edits!!! I rather lean towards creative shoots.

Chris

Fascinating Chris - I hope any young people considering this business find it interesting also. Ironically, I never made VHS movies; I was lucky enough to already be in production so I was the guy lugging a BVW507 around the school sports day!

Good question Philip. I also do not offer clients the option of making changes, so I'll give an answer from my perspective.

I've never had an urge to do anything wildly different unless I've discussed it ahead of time with the clients. For me, this has nothing to do with the fact that I don't offer a preview edit. Instead, it is wholly because I have promised my clients a particular style consistent with what they have seen in my samples. In my opinion, my approach is far from formulaic though, because I believe that it only takes a few key moments in a wedding film in order to give it an original flavor. So it is these small moments that I look for when shooting and editing what might otherwise be considered a "standard" wedding. It's almost a game really, where I'm trying to see how many small moments I can uncover during the production.

Now, some may think that this approach is extremely formulaic, but this difference of opinion leads us to what I think is an even deeper question...

What is the minimum that must be done in order to create a unique wedding film?

Is it a matter of style, technique, emotional impact, arrangement/order (such as time shifting), "wow shots", shot selection, locations, audio from the toasts or ceremony, music choices...? I have to believe that we'll see a lot of different opinions out there on this, and that many of us have not considered this question throughly enough. I'll be contemplating this one for a while.

Alec Moreno
Wedding Art Films - Southern California - Los Angeles - Orange County - Video (http://www.WeddingArtFilms.com)

Yes, I have become a bit forumlamatic (sp) over the last 7 to 10 years. Since most of my business is coming to me as a documentary style approach and not the short form package I so dearly love, there is little I do to the ceremony other than basic CC, audio sweetening, and of course cutting the air out. For the reception again I play it pretty straight. Intros, toasts dinner prayer, cake cutting (not always in that order) special dances, open dancing, garter and bouquet and finally a goodbye shot but the reception although generally cut to no more than about 50 to 60 minutes is done in lineal order with little if anything done to it other than a bit of audio sweetening.
The pre ceremony and prep (if done), postceremony and highlight are worked over a bit but honestly not a lot as the doco package doesn't leave a lot of room money wise. However work is work especially this year.

most of the requests I get are for additional footage "we liked this part of the dance montage, can we see the whole thing?". I do offer one re-edit in my contract but starting to re-think that based on some of the responses here and thinking how much work that could save me:)

I use to offer draft copies as well for their approval. But one client made me remove that clause. Can you change the text? Can you remove her, don't know why we invited her in the first place, rather than using pictures can you shoot some flowers and use that as a background? The Bestman speech is too long can we cut it? Can I sit in while you edit? It is was not very often but a client like that will come eventually.

My 2 cents

I give a seven day approval period. If during that time they discover a technical fault or a speeling mustake (sic), or anything that they really couldn't live with I will correct it. I have built into my price a half day to re-MPEG and burn a second disc.
However I do make it absolutely clear when they sign my agreement that anything other than that, such as a change of music, is to be paid for on a quotable basis with a minimum charge of £100. That is clearly shown on my agreement form next to the final payment due.
I think I've been asked a couple of times to make some minor changes but in the main they are happy with what they get. Those who are demanding, and I have had them, are soon deterred by the thought of an additional payment, and if they did want to pay I'd be happy to do any additional work for them and take their money.
My philosophy is to have happy customers so I try to give them what they want. Happy customers bring more customers.
A happy couple can't wait to show their DVD to their friends. An unhappy couple won't wait to denigrate you name amongst their friends.
A good reputation smoulders, a bad one is like wild fire.

George you make a great point.
I have no problem making a change if the customer is truly unhappy but I feel offering a "first draft" or a "proof" is inviting criticism and changes that the customer wouldn't otherwise request.

Just to clarify, I don't present it to the couple as a draft or preview, To all intents and purposes it is the completed work.
I tell them at the booking stage that that I will keep it on my system for seven days and during that time if they spot anything they should let me know (I am very careful but not invulnerable to missing something).

On one occasion I attributed the wrong name to one of the bridesmaids another was a BCU of one of the bride's ex boyfriends waiting at the church. She didn't mind him in the background but not in close-up. I had no way of knowing who he was. She even offered to pay for it to be removed so why should I cause her to be embarrassed every time she watched it when I could easily snip him out and make her happy. As I said I have an extra half day built into my price so I'd rather have any mistake pointed out to me when I can rectify it rather than months later when it's long gone off the system. I make it clear that once off the system no changes can be made so I know it won't be coming back to me months later when Aunt Bessie gets to see it and complains about the way she looks.

This is developing into an interesting thread. One thing I'd be interested to know, especially from Chris, Don, Travis school (and I use the term as one refers to the Dutch school of painting etc) is whether their approach in which they have total control tempts or lures them into or towards formulaic production.

I can't speak for anyone else, but we're generally trying to push into new territory with every wedding. That said, we're aren't trying to reinvent the wheel with every wedding. We do still have a basic plan for how we are going to shoot, edit and produce the final product. But for each wedding we do tweak certain aspects here and there to push our creativity and stay inspired.

So to answer the question on your mind, the production our couple receives is going to be somewhat different from what they previously saw in the studio. However, it's not going to be so different that they feel like they are receiving a different product altogether. For some couples here and there we've really done some things differently, but that's because we knew in advance that those couples would be open to it. So getting to know our couples really helps us know where to go with their production.

Hope that was somewhat enlightening. d;-)

So the trick for you then Travis is to make your "differences" minor "wow" factors for the clients. I'm quite gee'd up by this response in view of the minority of one I felt I was becoming within the respondents here.

The way I always look at making a wedding "unique" without straying too much from what the bride is expecting is during the shooting process rather than at the editing process. I always do a short photoshoot prior to the photographer taking over (that's when I head for the reception and do guest interviews) During my photoshoot I will then look for opportunities to make that part of the wedding unique especially rather than trying to tweak ordinary footage in post.

Are you guys talking about creating a "wow" factor in post from what would otherwise be mundane footage or do your creative juices also take control during shooting.????

I purely mention the "photoshoot" segment because it is a period where you don't have any time restraints or running sheet to follow...At least during this segment I have the time to get the stedicam vest on and get creative cos you know that nothing "ceremonial" is likely to happen!!!

Chris

I hope no-one will mind if I extend this thread a little because the time is approaching when I can easily change my terms and I'm being persuaded towards the "final package" solution.

Alec refers to the style the clients have seen in his samples and others have described people buying them because of their style.

This for me raises the first question of how many samples do you show each new client?

Secondly, presumably these are complete wedding videos so how many DVDs do you provide for each potential client to see?

Finally, what in your experience do the really expensive producers offer - their pick or complete client choice? If the first, how do they justify the top price or is it just a matter of having the "chutzpah" to double last year's price??

I encourage couples to view the sample highlights on my website. About half the time, this is enough to satisfy them. If they want to meet and view some full films, I generally show them selections from two or three weddings until they're happy with what they've seen. Most of these meetings last between 30 and 60 minutes.

Alec Moreno
Wedding Art Films - Southern California - Los Angeles - Orange County - Video (http://www.WeddingArtFilms.com)

I don't offer draft for customer to review. It's just too much footage that will take forever to turn around. I also make it clear up front when we first met that there is no review process. I'm their wedding movie director so I will decide what goes to the final cut. If they don't trust my professionalism, they shouldn't hire me in the first place.

I then further explain to the customers. The DVD they received is final. However, if there's something obviously my mistake, I will take them back to re do the edit. I also tell them these 2 real stories happened.

Story 1
After receiving the final DVD, the bride asked me to re-do the edit to take out her mother-in-law footage as much as I could. It is obviously she has a problem with the mother-in-law. It is not my mistake. So I turn down her request.

Story 2
A bunch of groomsmen were acting silly in the church court yard (groping each other). I thought it was funny and put them in the bloopers. The bride told me her parents are serious catholic people and they will consider that offensive. That's a total legit concern and I took back the DVD to edit those out.

After that, my customers are gladly accept the fact there is no review process. =)

There was a similar discussion back in April. Here is the link:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/476704-draft-copy-clients-input.html

From that discussion it was apparent that there were some regional differences and also differing business perspectives and differing experiences.

I work in a rather rural area where very nearly all of my customers want a multi-camera documentary style of wedding video. Because of this, I see no need for "draft" copies for most customers. The term that I use is a "proof" copy which is for the couple to review for things like spelling errors. They have two weeks to review the DVD for those kinds of corrections and then the balance of the contract price is due.

I go with two weeks for review because most couples in my area are either going away for the week after the ceremony or else they have come up here (a resort area) for the wedding and won't be where they can review the DVD for a week or so.

I get so few requests for changes and most of them are so minor that I'm actually pretty loose about making them. Maybe a guest or relative has told an off-color story in an interview during the reception. Maybe there's a moment of unguarded horseplay as Taky described. These are things that seemed funny at the time. Some couples want these moments left in the video (particularly things that one or both never got to see.) Others may have second thoughts about these items. No problem cutting short clip out and re-doing the DVD. Once.

However, when it comes making substantive changes such as re-editing sequences to change views, etc., my contract also says that I charge for my time on an hourly basis. The contract also says that the clients can work with me on the editing but they will pay hourly for doing so. (This is over and above what would be my usual charges). Re-edits have to be done as my schedule permits.

If a client wants to rent me and my editing studio for days, I'll take the money. That said, in sixteen years of videoing weddings up here, I have never had anybody want to do this with a wedding video.

The only time I will actually call something a "draft" copy is when a customer is is paying for a "highlights" or "day movie" segment. There is not much call for that kind of thing in my area; most folks in my area have a distinct preference for the documentary style of DVD and a professional video is usually a budgetary after-thought, anyway. For the few people who want a highlights "movie" these are such highly personal things and I've found that it may take a couple of tries to get the video to the exact personal style and shape the customer wants, rather like corporate work that somebody mentioned above. I charge for this kind of work on an hourly basis and work out a budget with the customer beforehand and make that part of our contract.

so good to see this thread growing.
I've already changed my contract to the 'no changes' era. I had my first two pre-wedding meetings with couples this week and they signed the contract quite happily. No questions asked about the 'i will be deemed correct' point.

Thinking about what most people have been saying in here, the changes is a more psychological thing. If you send a draft of their film in a DVD-r for them to approve they will feel that the product is not good enough therefore they will try (or force themselves) to find changes. If in the other hand, the first thing they receive is a beautiful package with their printed cases, Blu-Rays inside, etc.....then they will love it....or force their brains to love it.

Two points - Taky, neither of your two examples were your fault yet you took diametrically opposite views about changing them. If referrals are our best adverts leaving a bride angry that her wishes regarding her mother in law wouldn't be met merely creates an unsatisfied client hardly likely to give you a 100% referral.

Secondly, I don't regard any edit as draft - we adhere as strictly as possible to the wishes expressed in the Client Questionnaire - which would have picked up the m-i-l issue. Most of our edits are accepted at first offering - some 80% - and the changes needed are rarely big ones, so why not let the client think they're in control?

Philip.. I would think the groomsmen situation is my fault, as I should be more sensitive and find out what is funny and what is not. Lesson learned, now for questionable material like that, I will consult the birde first to see if it's appropriate to go to the DVD or not.

two other stories,

story 3:
For some reason, the bride either her boobs got smaller that day or the dress got bigger. She keep pulling her dress up all day. So I put together a montage of her pulling her dress up. It was quite funny. So I asked the bride if it's okay to include that in the final DVD. She said as long as she's pretty go ahead! Also it would be fun to show her grand child she was a hot bride.

story 4:
I interviewed guests at wedding ask them to say some blessing. One couple (the wife) said, "I don't think you guys will work out. But you can try anyway". She was serious, not joking. So I asked the bride about that. She told me that wife was a bitter person.. and she could have crush on the groom, who knows. So she informed me not to include that footage in the DVD.

It's good to communicate with the customers =)

This really has been an interesting thread and I was pleased to see the opinions given.

As for me:

1. No clients in the edit - absolutely fatal - you'll be there till dawn next Christmas.
2. I am being hired as a video producer to produce an edited artistic representation of the days events.
3. Edit errors (having been reported within 30 days of the event date) will be corrected free of charge and new DVDs supplied.
4. Requests for additional footage will be considered in the "Bonus Feature" section and will be at the discretion of the producer (my goodwill section).
5. No previews, drafts or viewings. In essence, you're inviting them to make changes and can if you're not careful open the floodgate, can of worms, add in your own metaphor.

I am not their friend (meting out concessions) but a friendly professional providing them with a service - our relationship is on that basis.

Essentially, they hire me on the basis of knowing my past work and experience and want to see something similar - and if it deviates from the formulaic that's all to the good, as new inspiration comes along quite often. As a result 9/10 clients say job very well done, with the remainder asking if you do this... add that... change this... of whom are referred to the terms and conditions of our agreement.

If I charge over £1,000 for my services then perhaps I would add in more concessions, but I don't, so I don't.

This is a business: your charges, the margins and the clients you hope to attract based upon what you offer, therefore you have to decide fairly early on what concessions you will make in order to help meet your financial objectives in what is a high capital cost industry.

Yes I love my work, but let's face it - there are some very obsessed brides out there who will want to relive their wedding through every re-edit and additional piece of bonus footage, seemingly desparate to avoid the prospect of the marriage. My coprorate and non-wedding clients are much more cuddly.

:)

I like Claire's succinct phrase, "edit errors." Using that will take several sentences out of my contract provision where I was basically mumbling in print trying to be too specific. Thanks.

I like Claire's signature! :)