I am using a Sennheiser ME66 mic module with K6 power module on a Sony Z1E. Using manual settings for audio input and phantom power from the camera.

No problem recording standard volume stuff.

When filming discos I leave plenty of headroom and usualy have no problems but occassionally I get distortion when the DJ speaks over the music. I have looked at the waveform and found that this part peaks at -2db. The rest of the waveform will be around -6db.

Any ideas why this part in particular should be distorted?

(Not sure if i can add a file to this post to let you hear the problem)

You are clipping the input. For loud places you need an inline attenuator. You put it between the cable and your recorder/camera.

This one lets you attenuate by -10, -20, or -30db.

Audio-Technica AT8202 In-Line Attenuator AT8202 - B&H Photo

Actually, you're probably clipping AT THE MIC - the ME66 is FAR from ideal for incredibly loud scenarios. I carry a CHEAP chinese knock-off medium diaphragm condenser mic in my bag for situations like rock concerts, dance halls et al.

Shaun is right. The ME66 is way too sensitive for loud environments. When we bought the two we use (2005ish), Senn. offered all new buyers the opportunity to send them in for a free attenuation adjustment for those wanting to use them in louder environments. In essence, they were offering to modify them to make them less sensitive.

With all the great portable recorders available, you're probably better off using the onboard mics for loud environments. I write this because we've never been able to attenuate these mics enough when levels get too high.

Like I said, an inline attenuator is the tool you need.

Chad: it's my opinion, based on SOLID experience, that it is the CAPSULE that is overloading therefore an attenuator won't solve the problem.

I have owned an ME66 for 8 years (having RECENTLY sold it) and prior to that used one nearly daily since media college back in '98. Again, far from ideal for loud environments.

I suggested the attenuator, David didn't ask for a new mic solution. I figured he wasn't planning on buying a new mic, which he definitely should. I agree, have had a ME66/K6 for 5 years, and I agree that it, or any other shotgun is the wrong mic for either a "loud disco" or a rock show, or any kind of music whatsoever.

David the ME66 is ok for dialog, which is what it is designed for, and it should only be used for outside dialogue really. The ME66 suffers more than most any other shotgun from the hollow/phasey sound one gets in a reflective room. Those slits on the interference tube design of a shotgun don't deal well when a reflection hits them at a different time than the source. The proper mic for indoor dialogue, or roaming around in a club or a show would be a hypercardioid. The AT4053b would be nice. Or for something cheap, the Rode NT3 will do (though it's a cardioid). If all you want is ambient sound and nobody is talking to the camera, the camera mics will do. But if you want to try to focus better on someone right in front of the camera talking or yelling more likely, then definitely a hypercardioid is the mic, as it would reject side noise and capture more of what's right in front of it.

STILL - in any loud environment, be it rock show or disco, any sound person should have a couple inline attenuators like the one I linked above. The mE66 is also very sensitive, and does indeed send a louder signal to your recording device, and it is feasible that it could clip your input, on top of distorting at the capsule. If you are serious about your audio, you want to be prepared to tackle that input distortion when it happens. Since one should have one anyway, you should just try it with your mic, but also just plan on getting a better mic for indoor use.

498.00
Audio-Technica AT4053b Hypercardioid Condenser AT4053B - B&H

269.00
Rode NT3 Microphone NT3 - B&H Photo Video

429.00
AKG Blue Line Series Microphone Kit - B&H Photo Video

Thanks very much for your replies. I now at least understand what is happening. I do have some in line attenuation built into the Sony Z1 via the menu based input trim which goes to -18db. I will try that first and see what happens as in most cases the mic does cope well.

I will have a look at the mics that you have recommended and purchase one of those for use in loud environments as getting good sound quality is paramount.

Fortunatlely I always use the Fostex FR2-LE Field Recorder during loud events so that I can use the best recording.

This forum is great. Glad I joined.

Thanks again

I've never found in-line attenuators much good with condensers of any type - sensitive condensers that don't have a built in pad distort far too easily, and the attenuator just lowers the level to the recorder/camera - leaving the distortion intact. The flat topping of the waveform is really unpleasant. In these circumstances, I'd just use a dynamic, and if necessary, the in-line attenuator.

For an oppressively loud situation like that, could you just get a cheap SM-58 kind of thing? You wouldn't really have to be "directional"...would you?

The on-camera mic would probably be fine, but particularly on the Sony Z and EX camera bodies, I find that handling noise can make its way through...

Though i suppose if it's that loud in the venue, that may not be an issue...

You need a mike with a higher spl rating. Two good small diaphragm condenser mikes with spl's in the 155 db range are: Sennheiser e914 (about $400) and the AKG Perception 170 (about $140). My thinking is that very loud venues don't require a whole lot of subtle reproduction, just an ability to handle the sound level, and the AKG works very well. One source is sweetwater.com.... in-line attenuators are fine for dropping too-hot line feeds, but as others have pointed out, it's the mike itself that's overloading, if you attenuate the signal you just get an attenuated verson of the distorted waveform the mike is sending out.

The ME66 SPL rating is 125dB, which would be pretty dang ear splitingly loud if you were in a club. The AT4053b is 155dB, which would cover about anything including being right in front of a cranked guitar amp with room to spare.

I agree with elements of all the posters.

"Generally" the mic INPUT will be the first point in the chain that distortion shows up simply because it is often set to be the most sensitive and with the least headroom.

However I do think the ME66 is more prone to distortion than it's SPL spec says it should be. I think it's a by-product of the same problem with off-axis coloration when used indoors in reverberent locations.
Perhaps a kind of "off-axis multiplication" that makes it more vulnerable.

I also agree that in-line attenuators, which are hard to find with any value smaller than -5 or -10 db are often too much attenuation and will bring the signal down too much.

As a first test I vote for changing the MENU attenuation setting on the camera's mic inputs and see what happens.

If that doesn't help, then I also do what many others have suggested and use either a lower output cardioid or hypercardioid condenser mic or a good quality dynamic mic.

There is little point (unless you have the dosh spare and want one) in buying a mic capable of handling the high SPL, simply because it will give you undistorted, distorted sound! What I mean is that the problem with loud sound systems of anything other than really pro spec, is that their quality is bad to start with. Disco DJ systems frequently have very inferior drivers, many have horrible sounding piezo HF units and your new mic will reveal exactly how bad the sound really is! I suspect we've all heard these systems, that sound just about OK when running quietly as background sources, but sound simply dreadful when they turn them up to 11 on the scale of 1 to 10. SM57s and 8s are not at all ultimate mics, but the most expensive microphone will not produce quality sound when it's bad to start with - and most are!

When we do big shows where the talent wear in-ear monitors, we put a microphone on the audience and feed a little of this into the monitor system and a frequent complaint is that it makes the exceptionally expensive PA sound rubbish. I think I'd go so far as to say that I've never heard good quality from any PA system miked up!

Paul. The lack of quality in a source you are recording is no reason to keep using low quality microphones. I would think David wants better mics in general, as that's what any videographer needs. Putting a crap mic on a crap PA definitely sounds worse than a good mic on a crap PA. And you can't categorically say that every DJ has a distorted sound. I've been to many nice shows. It all depends on the people running the gear. The main thing is that even with a perfectly running PA at a decent volume level, the ME66 is the wrong mic. That mic is for outdoor dialogue - not outdoor or indoor music.

Maybe David can't afford the right gear now but I would hope he plans on doing his video production a favor eventually.

You are clipping the input. For loud places you need an inline attenuator. You put it between the cable and your recorder/camera.

This one lets you attenuate by -10, -20, or -30db.

Audio-Technica AT8202 In-Line Attenuator AT8202 - B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68085-REG/Audio_Technica_AT8202_AT8202_In_Line_Attenuator.html)

Yes - this *is* the most likely cause of the problem and the solution.

Many cameras have the level control *after* the first amplification stage and you are likely overloading this first stage.

You can either have the K6 modified or use an external attenuator. Personally I would use the external attenuator .


Actually, you're probably clipping AT THE MIC - the ME66 is FAR from ideal for incredibly loud scenarios. I carry a CHEAP chinese knock-off medium diaphragm condenser mic in my bag for situations like rock concerts, dance halls et al.

Unlikely - the K6 series work well in loud environments - but the output can be too hot for many cameras in these situations.

Chad has the answer.

Sennheiser *do* offer a version of the K6 with a lower output level (or existing ones can be modified), but the external attenuator, I would say, is the best option.

Very very unlikely that the capsule itself is distorting as it takes a *very* large amount to bottom-out the capsule.

John, until such point as I actual hear a SINGLE recording done in a loud environment successfully with this combination, I will respectfully disagree.

Betacams (SP & SX), Sony PD150s, JVC GY-HD200s... I have NEVER been able to get the mic to not distort in a rock or dance room even with pads at my disposal.

I have both a standard ME66 and a factory-attenuated one. There's only so much sound pressure a mic like this can stand. In some really loud settings, you need a different mic. In-line attenuators only go so far - if the capsule is overloaded it won't help.

Hmmm. Plenty of conflicting advice. Clearly the mic I am using is the wrong one. I will try the least cost option first which is probably to use the camera mic and tweak the mic input levels. If that does not solve the problem I will try an in line attenuator. If all fails then I have no option but to go for a differnt mic. I always use a field recorder with a stereo mic pointing well away from the sound source as back up but would prefer not to have to do this as it is extra set up time.

Thanks for your comments

I have this same mic set up going into my FX1 for weddings and narratives. I get distortion in loud venues as well, especially when live bands are jamming out - brass is very bad! Although the most curious incident of distortion occured when I was filming a two person scene for a short film in a long indoor hallway (concrete ceilings). I couldn't figure out why some of the actors words were distorting and clipping so bad. I lowered the levels, checked the cables, and attempted to reposition the boom pole. Eventually we got through it. But is was rough. I should go back to that local and see if I can recreate the problem with the same set up to see if it was just some freak event.

Do you guys think this problem is due to the reverb in the tight space of the hallway messing with the mic?

Also, and this is a real stupid question, what is the red recessed switch for above the power switch on this mic? What does it do? There are two symbols on either side of it: a single dash on the left and a bent dash on the right.

Thanks for any info you guys have!

William the single dash means that the mic is being used with no filters. The bent dash means that you have engaged the low end roll off. This will help if you are getting that low rumble from wind or handling noise.

And remember that the ME66 is a SHOTGUN mic - which means it's not intended for INdoors. The ME66 is one of the especially bad shotguns when used in a reflective area like a hallway. The right mic for indoor use is a hypercardoid. Something like the AT4053b, or the AKG CK93. Even the Rode NT3 will do you though it's a "cardioid, not a hypercardioid). Don't confuse the Rode NT3, with the Rode NTG-3. The sennheiser is a sensitive mic, meaning it puts out a loud signal, which is great for dialogue pickup in the right environment (outside). But it's terrible for music. One mic does NOT fit all situations.

Chad, thanks for that information! Very Helpful!

I mistyped when I wrote "ME66 is a SHOTGUN mic - which means it's not intended for out doors."

It's not intended toe INdoors. I just changed the post.

William the single dash means that the mic is being used with no filters. The bent dash means that you have engaged the low end roll off. This will help if you are getting that low rumble from wind or handling noise. ...The sennheiser is a sensitive mic, meaning it puts out a loud signal, which is great for dialogue pickup in the right environment (outside). But it's terrible for music. One mic does NOT fit all situations.

Another reason for using the filter is that low frequency noise that is too far down in frequency to be audible to our ears will still be driving the mic inputs with a signal. This can be strong enough to overload the input and cause audible clipping even though we can't hear the noise itself. A low-cut filter eliminates that part on the spectrum. IMHO, the filter should be engaged almost all the time, excepting those rare situations such as mic'ing organ pedal pipes, tympani, etc where there actually is important information below 80Hz or so.

Thanks again guys. So, in your opinion, what is a good mic for getting dialogue outside? I used the ME66 outdoors to record a friend of mine's dialogue while he walked along a sidewalk near traffic. The sound of cars driving by was very prominent and almost ruined the recording of his voice. I see now that was a mistake. What should I have used?

I wish there was a manual for filmmakers wishing to know what types of mics to use in different setups: outdoor - close up and further away, indoor - close up and further away, soundeffects, foley, etc. It would be great if this manual also explained why certain types of mics fail in ceretain situations and why they are not reccomended. Its always nice to know what pitfalls to avoid!

William the cars were picked up because of the position of the mic. Even if you had a better shotgun mic you still would have picked up cars. If your ears can hear it, the mic will hear it too. Shotguns greatly reduce sounds from the side of the mic, but they don't make that noise disappear.

But if you want a better shotgun, check out the Rode NTG-3 for 700.00. It's much nicer than the ME66.

Thanks again guys. So, in your opinion, what is a good mic for getting dialogue outside? I used the ME66 outdoors to record a friend of mine's dialogue while he walked along a sidewalk near traffic. The sound of cars driving by was very prominent and almost ruined the recording of his voice. I see now that was a mistake. What should I have used?

I wish there was a manual for filmmakers wishing to know what types of mics to use in different setups: outdoor - close up and further away, indoor - close up and further away, soundeffects, foley, etc. It would be great if this manual also explained why certain types of mics fail in ceretain situations and why they are not reccomended. Its always nice to know what pitfalls to avoid!

As Chad said ... a shotgun mic will pick up sound arriving from inline along its axis. I'll bet you had your mic on the camera rather than booming it. If you did, not only is your talent in the direction the mic is pointed but also anything making noise BEHIND your talent is also in the area of maximum pickup. In addition, you probably had the mic too far from the talent so you didn't have the inverse square law working for you. Getting the mic above and in-front of the talent, aimed down towards his chest, moves the traffic noise into the low sensitivity area of the mic's pattern - the mic is pointed at the ground behind him rather than the traffic. Booming it so it's just out of frame but still within 24 inches or so of his mouth makes the inverse square law work for you, making his voice is proportionally much louder with respect to the traffic noise than it is if the mic is 6 or 8 or 10 feet from him as it would be at the camera. As a general rule of thumb, when the mic is placed properly, the talent should be able to reach out and touch its tip without having to stretch his arm.

Of course, reversing your angle so the camera's BACK is to the traffic would also help.

Actually, we had a boompole operator (fairly inexperienced) pointing the mic at his lips about a foot and a half away. I was operating the camera so I couldn't see how close she kept it throughout the shot. Since there were two lines of traffic moving parallel to us in opposite directions, the sound of the passing cars was obviously getting picked up pretty well with every drive by - nice Doppler shift :-(

Though the film is several years old now, I think I'm going to get a hyper-cardioid and go out to that same locale and try re-filming it as a sound test. I have some other types of mics so I'll try those as well. Hopefully I can find a nice solution.

A hyper has a wider pick-up pattern than a shotgun, and they are very susceptible to the slightest breeze. You'll most likely pick up more car sound using a hyper. Really the only way around this is to frame the shot differently, or ADR. Another possibility is to use a lav. But mainly you need to keep the cars behind the shotgun or to the side of the shotgun. Some shotguns pick up more sound from behind the mic than from the side.

Another possibility is to have the actors work with the cars and yell over them, as you would in real life. The end result will be that you can turn your volume down in post, and the cars will be quieter and the dialogue will be understood.

Actually, directional mics also tend to have "lobes" behind the mic, so you don't want the traffic behind you. It's best if the mic is aimed downwards as you wrote. With a camera mounted shotgun, it's best if the traffic and other noise is to the side.

File:Polar pattern directional.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polar_pattern_directional.png)

I think it's unlikely the mic itself is overloading. Using a pad should solve the problem. Still, as mentioned, a shotgun isn't the ideal mic for shooting in a club.