I was trying to make some feature length movie masters on Sony DVCAM tapes out from Premiere Pro, but for whatever reason the output stuttered making the program recorded have glitches. I had this happen a few times and I want to re-use these approx $30 tapes. But I am worried about how to do so cleanly so that the tail end of the previous bad program doesn't stick out at the beginning or past the end of the movie after the re-recording. It's difficult to make second attempt to record to tape absolutely perfectly line up with to overwrite the first attempt since they are the same exact length. I don't just want to add ten or fifteen seconds of black video at the beginning or end of the program because then that will be added to the master on the second try and annoy the engineers or broadcasters I am sending these to. .This must have happaned to a lot of other people. What's the best way to prefectly erase what's on the tapes or best way to re-output to the same tapes and make sure to perfectly overwrite the previous program and not have any extra video from the first attempt messing up the master?

Jim,

I'm not familiar with Premier Pro - but most of the old analog era "frame accurate editing" stuff has gone by the wayside. With those systems, at least you could back up and do a match frame edit from right before the glitch, comfortable that from that edit on, you'd be back on track.

These days, machine control like that has given way to all digital manipulation, and I'm not sure you can make that happen without some hassle.

I'd start by investigating if you can wipe the originals using a standard old school degaussing magnet. They used to be standard equipment in radio stations and recording studios. A big old hoss designed for 1" type C should totally blank a DVCAM tape without breaking a sweat. (I'd be wary of the tapes with embedded microchips however, the process would probably toast those!)

IIRC, the small digital DVCAM decks like the DSR-20 and DSR-25 had a DUP button above the record button that did a perfect timecode clone of DVCAM to DVCAM - provided that the decks were connected digitally. That might be a solution if you could track down physical masters of the older programs.

Good luck.

Hi Jim,

I think you will find that the issue is with your computer keeping up to speed with the video output required.

The following may or may not be helpful:
- de-fragmenting your hard drives
- killing off any non-essential software apps or processes (especially anti-virus stuff)
- exporting your timeline out to a standalone .avi file so that any processing overhead (for colour correction, effects, etc) is dealt with.
- place your finished exported avi file in to a timeline in Premiere and then do your export out to tape.

Hope this helps.

Andrew

Guys, these were both good answers, but not to my question. Andrew answered how to copy a tape from deck to deck, which is not what I am trying to do. Bill answered on how to make a successful output to tape from Premiere without problems, and that was also good advice for my next output attempt. What I am actually asking however, is now that I already made a few bad outputs to tape, how do I cleanly erase the messed up movies on these $30 Sony DVCAM tapes so I can output to the same tapes again, hopefully successfully this time, and not have the remnants of the previous bad output attempts left remaining on the tapes slightly before or after the second, hopefully good attempt?

Oh, that. Thought you already knew. :-)

You can record blank video along the tape if it makes you feel good, but you might as well just re-record the output to the tape. No need to worry about the analogue "ghosts of content past" as this is a digital format. It will just work. No need to do any special erasing routine.

Hope this helps.

Andrew

Oh, that. Thought you already knew. :-)

You can record blank video along the tape if it makes you feel good, but you might as well just re-record the output to the tape. No need to worry about the analogue "ghosts of content past" as this is a digital format. It will just work. No need to do any special erasing routine.

Hope this helps.

Andrew

I appreciate the replies, but I better explain a little more since no one has understood my question yet. I am not worried about the old video & audio leaking through along with the new video & audio I wll output to any specific spot on the tape. What I am saying is that if one tries to output a program of say 1:58:06:02 onto an already used two hour tape that has the exact same program on it and you don't line it up perfectly correctly to the frame you end up with a snippet of the old program sticking out in the tail end past the new program you output to the tape. (Perhaps the beginning as well).

Depending on how messed up the first output with stuttering timecodes or not, and how closely you align the start of the next attempt to output the same movie, you may end up with a second or so or even a few seconds or even longer like 10-15 seconds or more of footage from the first attempt at the end of the new master even if the second output goes perfectly smoothly. This must be a very common thing for people who do a second output to the same expensive DVCam tape. How do you guys deal with this? The second output is never going to line up perfectly, right so you have some remnant left afterwards from the first botched output which messes up the master if you send it off like that. I have seven tapes like this worth over $200 that I really want to try & re-use!

Add a few minutes of black to the end of the timeline to make sure the second attempt is longer than the first.

Ditto Vito. Just chuck some extra black on the end.

Let us know how it works out for you.

Andrew

Jim,

Two things.

First, the problem you're facing is why, back when I was working with DVCAM, I'd always push PLAY for about 10 seconds rather than start my recording and timecode at the VERY beginning of the tape. Then, if you need to re-record something you'd have some tape space before the timecode starts where you can cut in a new recording - which will overwrite both signal AND timecode.

But if someone messed up and started at the "full rewind" position, it's still not a huge deal. Take the recorded tape and again, just play the tape for 10 seconds or so, then use a bulk tape eraser (Markertek still carries them for $100 or so) on take up reel side of the tape.. Another option is to TRY to pick up the timecode of the original tape. But you can defeat this by using a deck that will RECEIVE timecode and jam sync the recording with the same timecode the playback deck is generating. Easy on better decks.

As to timecode problems at the end, just leave the record deck running when you stop the NLE playback and the recording machine will continue to write black frames with continuous timecode right to the point the tape hits the end.

As to timecode problems at the end, just leave the record deck running when you stop the NLE playback and the recording machine will continue to write black frames with continuous timecode right to the point the tape hits the end.

True if he's crash recording. But if he is using Premiere with deck control, the recording will stop at the end of the timeline. That's why you need to actually add black on the timeline itself.

(At least that's how it works with Avid. It's been a long time since I used Premiere, so I can't remember if the behaviour with printing to tape is the same.)

Hey guys, I appreaciate the detailed replies. I actually do start the recording approx. 10 seconds into the beginning of tape so I do have some room at the beginning to start the second output before the first and make sure the beginnng is overwritten. Of course, I also already thought of adding an extra minute or so of black video at the end of the timeline to make sure the second output is longer than and therefore overwrites the end of the first botched output. But wouldn't that be a problem for a broadcaster or someone going to air the movie on tv, because they are going to have timecode with black video continuing to play for a long, annoying minute or more past the end of the end credits?

You should have thirty seconds of black, thirty seconds of bars and tone, a proper slate, then thirty more seconds of black at the head of your tape anyway, so you should just build these into your timeline. You could have an infinite amount of time code at the end of your tape and that shouldn't cause a problem at all. Check with whoever you're sending these to; they'll have specific format requirements you should adhere to, but they almost always include these elements. You would never want to put anything of value onto the first minute of the tape.

I always set new timecode as well so the program itself starts at 00;00;00;00 or 1;00;00;00.

But just so we understand... this isn't a trick question? You're asking how to erase a tape?

Adam, yes, I do put bars & tone and black video at the beginning of my timeline. Still, since I am attempting to re-record the movie program onto these expensive DVCam tapes after the first botched attempts, I think that need to do one of two things. Either A- Completely erase the messed up movies with dropped frames & stuttering timecodes that are currently on the tapes before re-recording onto the tapes so that the second attempt has a clean result. Or, B- re-record the second attempt to output the same movie over top of the first attempt and make sure that no remnant of the first attempt to output the movie is left over at the beginnning or tail end of the movie.

I know some in this thread have suggested that just adding some black video to the end of the first program is not a problem, but I am questioning if this is really true. I mean if I do that and just add a few (3) minutes of black video at the end of my movie and then someone or multiple someones want to use these DVCam tapes as a master for broadcasting, making a DVD or Blu Ray or bumping up to DigiBeta or any other purpose, the formerly say, 1:56:06:10 long movie that ends cleanly with a fade to black after the end credits at 1:56:06:10 is now going to have timecode running on endlessly with black video for three long boring minutes after the end credits, making it look like the movie is 1:59:06:10. Isn't that going to be a problem? Isn't it better to have the master end cleanly where it is supposed to right after the end credits? I know this seems like basic question, but I imagine that others have been through this before.

If the "long boring" black gets too much for the guys at the TV station, sometimes they use the stop button on the deck. Or cut back how much coffee they are consuming.

Nothing to be worried about, really.

Andrew

Yeah, I really just don't think it's an issue. Your slate and tape box are labeled with the actual duration so the endless timecode won't even get seen, I wouldn't think. But perhaps I'm just a relic from the old days; when I was approving masters for airing on the Network I seem to recall the timecode just running to the end of the tape.

But obviously the only way to be sure is to ask the recipient. Why don't you just call and ask your local station and report back on what they tell you?

Jim,

I don't know who's gonna broadcast your tape. Maybe it's small town cable? But every reputable broadcast facility I've ever worked or done post in has an automation system where if the signal detector gets more than a few seconds of pure black - the transmitter chain automatically dumps to a slate or triggers the next event in the automation roster or something similar.

I think in the VAST majority of modern situations, your "tape" will NEVER see the inside of the broadcast chain. We're almost a decade into the era of "automation." The station guys will digitize it onto the playout drives, set an in and out point, and your tape will go up on a shelf.

Even if they're still using "tape" - I haven't seen a broadcast DVCAM deck in a station in a long time that didn't have a lot of dust on it.

It's the era of digitized content.

Heck, your big local network TV station down the way? It's as likely these days to be connected by satellite to a third party centralized content aggrigator/server as it is to a tape machine in the actual building.

Not to far from me, in an anonymous industrial airpark facility, a huge centralized content farm does a LOT of the content service for the western US all the way up to the Oregon/Washington area.

That's the modern reality. A whole bunch of the stories folks are seeing on their nightly news tonight in Portland, or Eureka, actually originated from an aggregator/server here in Scottsdale.

Go figure.

Bill is right. Broadcasters will digitize your tape, and set in and out points for the automation system to play. Check with your Broadcaster to see if there is a SPECIFIC amount of black - usually a minimum - that they want at the end of a progarm. Typically it is thirty seconds. Also check their head slate requirements - they can be VERY specific about those as well.

Yeah, I really just don't think it's an issue. Your slate and tape box are labeled with the actual duration so the endless timecode won't even get seen, I wouldn't think. But perhaps I'm just a relic from the old days; when I was approving masters for airing on the Network I seem to recall the timecode just running to the end of the tape.

But obviously the only way to be sure is to ask the recipient. Why don't you just call and ask your local station and report back on what they tell you?

Adam, Andrew, Bill, Richard, thanks again for all your detailed replies. You do ask a sensible question. But I am not sending this DVCam master to only one broadcaster who I can ask what their preferred specs are. I make a single DVCam master of the movie one time and store the original master in a professional video lab ready to be licensed. Then the movie gets sold for multiple purposes. It may get bumped up to DigiBeta from this DVCam master one or more times for tv including for broadcasters on both US and international cable and satellite tv stations; it will be sold for home video (DVD) rights in Canada, Brazil, Europe and other specific territories and a copy/conversion of the master sent off as NTSC or PAL for those customers; it also may be sold for IPTV rights and a copy of the master sent off to that IPTV broadcaster to encode to their format. I may even decide to make it into a Blu-Ray later and want to send a copy of the DVCam master off to a third party to create the Blu- Ray disk, just to give you a few of the common uses.

Maybe it's just the OCD in me but having made those few messed up tapes, having to re-output with the movies again with the minutes of extra black runnning for a few minutes past the end of the program just irks me and I imagined that with all of the varied intended recipients, that may be an annoyance for some. I guess the best answer is just not to make the mistakes on the first outputs to tape so one doesn't have the remnants left to deal with. I guess in this case I will just have to make the best of it and add some black at the end of the program and hope for the best. It just seems so much tidier to me when the timecode stops after the program ends, not when the tape ends.

I totally get what you are saying but my only thought was that getting even one answer from one possible recipient should put this matter to rest permanently and definitively.

Frankly, in your situation I'd just make sure I had a perfect master on a hard drive and I'd just give that to my local post house to master to tape -- they'll know the best format and will likely use virgin tape.

Jim,

Maybe it will help you relax to consider it this way.

For decades back when people were doing true "insert editing" the common practice was to lay "black and timecode" from the head of every tape you worked with - right through to the last second of mylar available.

Then, one would go back and INSERT the video and audio onto that blank master.

So the result? Black and timecode WAY beyond the end of the program. That said, there's no way any reputable manufacturer would ever create a playback system that gets tripped up by the fact that there is MORE black and timecode at the end of a tape beyond the program time. It just would not have made sense to allow that to become a problem.

So there's simply NO ISSUE with extra black/tc and the end of a program.

If you're concerned about old content popping up on a reused tape - the ANSWER is to simply position your record deck somewhere in the black at then end of the existing program - then hit RECORD with no signal present. Every DVCAM deck I know of will happily pick up the existing timecode, and continue to lay more down over BLACK - burning off any other content - right to the point where the tape auto stops/ejects.

Hope that helps.

I totally get what you are saying but my only thought was that getting even one answer from one possible recipient should put this matter to rest permanently and definitively.

Frankly, in your situation I'd just make sure I had a perfect master on a hard drive and I'd just give that to my local post house to master to tape -- they'll know the best format and will likely use virgin tape.

That's also a reasonable suggestion, but not practical for me. The great thing about digital video is the ability to make these high quality DVCam movie masters right at home on a Premiere Pro workstation. If I start doing this again on a regular basis, I don't want to have to send a hard drive off to a local post house just to make a DVCam master. I should be able to crank these out without issue. In years past I used to make a lot of SD & HD tape masters from Premiere Pro CS2 on my old dual-core workstation. Now with HDV footage edited on a Vista 64 workstation running CS3 I guess I ran into some issues specific to my hardware config or Windows or Premiere Pro config that caused the first few export attempts to stutter. And other than for that I would never record to a 'used' DVCam tape. If I fix the issues of the computer running out of memory or bogging down for whatever reason I should be able to export HDV movies to DVCam tapes anytime I want. I'll just have to add some black to the tapes' ends to salvage the use of these tapes this time and hopefully the next output attempts work as expected without any stuttering errors.

Ahh. Problem there. Can't export HDV (high def.) movies to DVCAM format as this format is standard definition only.

Andrew

Andrew, I am using Sony 124 "DVCam for HDV" tapes, item # PDV-124. And the exports *almost* work perfectly. Most of the movie looks great. The movies seem to transcode to HDV (as it says in Premiere) off the Premiere Pro CS3 timeline in the background just fine, then the movie plays out to tape in real time seemingly fine. But somewhere along the line the movie stutters and drops the timecode momemtarilly then resumes the timecode display and the video goes black for a second or two, one or more times as the movie plays out and ruins the master.

I actually had a friend suggest that it was the deck and a mechanical issue, maybe the heads losing contact with the tape, not the computer or the Premiere Pro export causing the probem. So I took my Sony DVR-M15U deck off it's side vertically the way I usually have it to capture and export HDV to the much smaller 60 minute mini-DV tapes and put it flat down horizontally and try the export to these much bigger and heavier 124 minute DVCam for HDV tapes. Unfortunately the last export I tried was almost perfect but still not perfect! My 1:57:11:02 program turned out to be 1:57:08:12. So once again, the timecode dropped somewhere as it played out, since the master and display on my monitor *should* say exactly 1:57:11:02. I may have to try another deck perhaps. I am almost at my wits end with this. My deadline already passed and now I am looking really bad to my distributor and clients.

Ahh, so you are actually recording to HDV format.

If you feel that you can justify the time, perhaps you could do a test export to the tape with a generated on-screen timecode playing? This way you could shuttle through the resulting tape recording, taking note of any differences between the deck timecode and what is displaying on the tape playback.

If possible, pro-actively keep your distributors in the loop. Hopefully they will be thankful that you are determined to make sure that they don't receive a problematic master tape.

All the best.

Andrew

Just a shot in the dark...

But is there a chance that the original NLE timeline was set up for drop frame TC and the recording deck is expecting non-drop - and the recording deck gets momentarily confused when the frame numbering isn't what it expects in a E-E transfer?

Just one more thing to look at and check off.