Hi all,

Really need some help here. I'm about to export my first full coverage wedding film for burning into DVDs. I have two major film which is the holy matrimony (about 1 hour) and the reception (about 2 hours).

My question is, what export settings are you using to give best quality for DVD?

I'm using FCP, and I've been using h.264 format, at 1080HD, and 'Best' quality settings and that would give me 2GB for a 5 minutes clip. I can't use this as 2 hours would equal 48GB.. would that fit into a DVD?? Or does a DVD reads the length of clip rather the size of the clip?

And second question, if I'm trying to put options in the DVD so that the couple can select which part of the reception they want to play (eg. Joe's speech), do you export the file separately or is it easier to create a chapter in a full length video instead?

This may sound like a silly question, but I admit I'm a noob! Would appreaciate your help!! Thanks :)


John

I'm a little lost... are you trying to burn AVCHD to a DVD (which can be playable on a BR player) or a regular DVD? Or are you trying to burn a BR disk?

A regular single side DVD can hold about 4.7Gb... you're going to be able to put roughly 30-45 minutes of AVCHD/h.264 if you render to 24p, 17Mbps bitrate (max is 18Mbps, better to leave a little headroom). If you lower the bitrate, you MIGHT be able to sneak an hour onto the disk, but quality will suffer.

A regular DVD (MPEG2) will give you roughly an hour of SD video, depending on how you render (I render 24p which seems to yield smaller files).

There are limits both as to file sizes (a disk can only hold so much data) and playback from DVD media (roughly 18Mbps from a regular DVD).

What program are you using to edit/render - I know the settings that work for me in Vegas 8, but don't know if they will translate well to other NLE's...

SO, please add information for better direction/response

Johannes, Dave's reply is generous because he assumes you're using the DVD for storage rather than as the delivery medium. I interpret the phrasing of your question to mean you're talking about delivery ie a DVD that will play in a set-top box. If so the answer is easier to address.

I have always understood that the"book" maximum transfer rate is 9,200kBps. However some machines (including certain Sony models I am told) are unhappy handling even that maximum and coding software like TMPGenc allow you to impose a maximum of 8,000kBps.

Since the DVD has a capacity of 4.7gB (to include all the menus etc, you can do the maths.

BUT, because the DVD allows for Variable Bitrate you can also lower the bitrate and get more material on to a DVD. The downside is that image quality suffers.

It is our policy to only encode at 8,000kBps - not only does this mean the highest reliable image quality today, but, bearing in mind we're making a product we hope will be enjoyed 20years or more from now, a product that will look good even on the improved systems of 2030.

With the availability of dual layer DVDs the practical limitations for wedding programmes encoded at 8,000kBps is not a problem.

Oh wow this is more confusing than I thought.. haha.. thanks for helping out.

Dave, my current work environment is:
- editing with MBP 2010 using Final Cut Pro
- usually export to .mov (h264) at 1920x1080 resolution
- burning as video onto DVD ie. as Phillip mentioned, for playback on standard DVD player
- not a Blu-Ray

Phillip, that 8000kBps might help me. I've been using 3000kBps for uploading into vimeo/youtube. That gives me roughly 200MB for 5 mins clip.. I will try that setting tonight.

My next question is about setting up DVD menus on your DVD. Do you export the clip separately (ie. the speech, the cake cutting, the dance, etc) and on the DVD menu adding it one by one and have an option to play all (I need to find out how to do that to)? Could you please let me know how you guys usually do it?

Thanks all :)


JOhn

John, I assume you're talking about motion menu items? If you are the solution's easier than you think. The trick is to buy an authoring program which offers motion menus.

I use DVD Lab but it's not everyone's taste, apparently not intuitive but I've used it for years and love it. I imagine other programs do roughly the same ie copy a few seconds (10-15) of the clip you want to use as the motion menu, encode it along with any other clips showing on the same menu page into an avi file. These clips each loop so DVD lab gives you the opportunity to have the points at which the loop starts in each clip at a different point - to avoid all the clips looping at the same point. The looping images are extracted from the main work, copied and the menu pages created within DVD Lab. AFAIK the only limitation is that you can't have motion clips and a motion background but that might be a bit OTT anyway.

The best thing is that you don't have to use the head of the clip to which the menu points - in fact you don't have to have any part of the target section of the programme as the menu clip.

I'm sure others here will have their favourites and will describe their benefits to you. For all our ease with DVD Lab, we're seriously considering moving to a TMPG authoring product which covers BD as well as DVD (as I think Adobe does also) but old habits die hard!

Where I got lost was "export to .mov 1920x1080" - I don't know of any way to make a generally compatible "DVD" unless you are just wanting to play the resulting file on a computer (which might or might not have the proper CODEC...)

I'm burning BR compatible disks to regular DVD with 1920x1080 resolution...
I'm burning regular old SD DVD's at 720x480 widescreen...

I've tested enough to know that with those two formats burned from DVD Archetect, I can stick the disk in just about anything and it will work correctly... to me compatibility is very important, people expect to stick a disk in a player and have it work, I don't want it to be too complicated, and definitely want it to work as expected.

For menus, I usually like to have the ceremony be the "main" selection, and then put separate "events" of the reception on separate menus/submenus. You can add an option to play all, or a highlight reel, depends on how you want to do it - I'm inclined to include a short "highlights" - longer than a trailer, but short enough not to put you to sleep! I think that's probably more effective - they can go to the things they want from the menus, but play the highlights reel of "the best stuff" for people they want to show it to that might not want to sit through the whole thing!

I'd agree with Philip at the bitrate thing. Doing 8000 kbps is a must, if you want to retain quality in your DVD. Regarding the chapter/file thing, we usually export in one big MPEG file and then use DVD Architect to add chapters on this. Of course everyone has his own way to do things, but I think one big file is better, because in this way you don't have those slight pauses on the DVD when the laser moves to a different file. Of course before you begin doing the authoring (whatever software you use) don't forget your video file to be made in a format that won't need recompression. Usually the authoring programs do a crappy job when recompressing. For example, Arcihtect won't recompress files that are saved with a "Program Stream" option.

Hi John

It really sounds like you are getting confused between HD footage which you evidently now have and SD footage which is what you are going to need if the client needs a DVD that they can simply pop into a domestic DVD Player.

That is going to require a downconversion from 1920x1080 (actually 1440 x 1080 as the PAR is 1:333) down to 720 x 576 Widescreen.

I have no idea how you MAC guys do it but us PC guys render the footage out to an MPEG2 file which your authoring software will compile to VOB's that the player can read. Philip?? I use DVD Lab too (best program ever!!) but I thought that it only ran in Windows??? not MAC ???? It can do both static and motion menus. Just for interest I render my clips "per event" ie: bridal arrival, ceremony, congratulations, etc etc etc ....In DVD Lab (as long as you do a fade out on the ends of each clip, you can tell the player to play all the clips sequentially and it does so very smoothly..I then add menus to the major event clips!!


PS: Hope the shoot went well on Saturday Philip...200 miles is a long way!!!

Chris

To create a DVD from the footage you have edited, you need a DVD authoring program, such as Adobe Encore. There are many others. The authoring program does all the work of creating the file structure and transcoding to make a DVD that will play in normal DVD player. For wedding footage, you can put about 90 minutes on the disk, or up to 2 hours if you can live with a slight loss of quality.

You have 2 basic options - either export the footage from your editing program in a format that the authoring program can use directly(which is Mpeg-2 DVD), or export in any other format that the authoring program can digest and then let it transcode to the MPEG-2 format.

You may have to experiment to see which way gives the best final product. I shoot in HD, edit and export HD directly (using dynamic link) to Encore CS5, which does the transcode. It works quite well. Encore CS3, however, wasn't so good, so I didn't use it to do the transcode. I exported HD files in the Cineform format and used Procorder 3 to transcode to MPEG-2 DVD. The problem here is the rather large file size for long projects.

In your case, try exporting MPEG-2 straight from your NLE. The problem with exporting H.264 and then sending it to the authoring program is that you are compressing twice.

Many people here are advocates of exporting HD, then using another program to make the MPEG-2 files, but in your case it might be too much to do right now.

In any case, 3 hours is too much for a DVD, but will be fine over 2 DVDs.

I'm doing similar - just divide the footage into 1.5hrs parts and encode to MPEG-2 DVD - you might want to reduce target bitrate to fit it all. I use Adobe Encoder and it has preset for High Quality DVD with progressive scan and widescreen - by default it fits 1.5hr of video on a single layer DVD. And I'd also skip on menus - it's only raw footage you're delivering to them - aren't they getting edited version anyway?

It really sounds like you are getting confused between HD footage which you evidently now have and SD footage which is what you are going to need if the client needs a DVD that they can simply pop into a domestic DVD Player.

That is going to require a downconversion from 1920x1080 (actually 1440 x 1080 as the PAR is 1:333) down to 720 x 576 Widescreen.

Right.. okay, I'm definitely confused! Let's help guide this poor guy slowly..

You're right, I have HD footage.. but can't you burn it to DVD maintaining the HD footage? Or is it only BR that has the capability to do so? I've burned several clips onto DVD using 1920 x 1080 and it plays fine on my DVD player.. so this gives me confusion why do I have to convert down to 720 x 576.... Wait, I might've popped it in my PS3......

Let me check if I have understood correctly..
Burning a 1920x1080 video on a DVD, means it can only be played on BR capable player.
Burning 720x576 video on a DVD will play fine on any DVD player.
True? .. or maybe I'm going way off track.. this is new stuff to me.. :(

If I export to 720x576 will my video be affected as in gets cropped or squashed image? I guess best way is to try it, which I will try to do tonight.

I'll try exporting as one chunk of file as currently the whole edit doesn't have fade in or fade out between each events. Wish me luck!

Johannes, there is absolutely no DVD Player that plays 1920X1080 footage. At least I don't know one. Not only a resolution issue but also a bitrate one, since over 9000 kbps with the DVD laser heads, there is no compatibility, let alone the massive bitrates of HD. So, what I think that happens here is that your software converts the footage to 720X576 automatically when you put it on DVD.

And yes, the only way to play HD from DVD (in AVCHD format) is only with BR player or in a computer with appropriate software (f.e. PowerDVD).

I think you're confusing terms.

* DVD is for Standard Definition only. It stores 4.7GB of data which means you can squeeze up to 2hrs of SD video (480p) on it in decent quality. And it will play in any DVD player (as well as in any BluRay).

* BluRay (BR) is for HD (ie. 1080p) videos and will play only in BR-compatible players.

So you can do as follows:
Start with full HD video as your source then convert it to BR format (which is still full HD) and burn it on special BR burner and watch it on BR player (like PS3).
- or -
Start with full HD video and down-convert it to SD and burn it on DVD burner and play it in any DVD player
- or -
Start with full HD and convert it to MP4 format (h.264 codec). It's popular format on YouTube and Vimeo. It preserves high resolution but it's "lite" enough to transfer it through internet... and you can burn that file onto your regular DVD. This time you use the DVD as data "keeper" and to play such video you'd have to play it on computer.

Hi John

You more than likely put it in your PS3 .. in good ole Perth there won't be many standard DVD players that could read those files and it's highly unlikely that the client will have one either ... you have to work on the assumption that the bride will also be taking her precious memories over to Nana's house to play it as well and it's VERY unlikely that Nana even knows what a BD player is!!!!

To be honest, I'm still transcoding my HD footage before I even edit!! I basically shoot in HD and store the files on the drive in the hope that some day a bride might ask for a BD copy...the same raw footage is then transcoded to DV-AVI and edited as SD footage...I must admit that after exhaustive tests with many different "domestic" critics none could 100% say which was HD to SD and which was SD to SD !!

It seems like you need to go out and do some software shopping now and get a decent DVD Authoring Program to complete your setup. Since you have apparently done the clips "all-in-one" I would also add some chapters to the clips so the bride can watch reasonable chunks of video rather than have to endure a full 2 hours of non stop video!! Just add the chapters at logical points so if Uncle Harry comes around and wants to see how his speech went, she can do just that and start the video with his speech. I normally break my reception up into Guest Interviews/Bridal Entrance, Individual Speeches, Cake and First Dance, Garter/Bouquet, General Dancing and the Finale.

Chris

Good post Lukas, but it is possible to burn a functional, menu'd DVD in full HD at up to 18Mbps that will play in most if not all BR players and computers with the right software. I've been doing it, until BR burners get cheap or I get enough demand...

Mostly I burn SD DVD though, as I know it's compatible, and make one of my "custom" BR disks when requested, or for my archives.

So MAC users out there.. what DVD program do you use to build this kind of menus; One that would allow you to create a chapter to play at a certain minute/part of a video clip?

Does DVD Architect does the job? Sadly it's Windows compatible only, which I probably can manage by installing Windows on my Mac. I just never got around setting it up.

My video was still rendering this morning when I had to leave for work. Hopefully my exporting setting works now that I have a good lesson on HD videos, DVD players compatibility, etc. Thanks all! :)

Hope I can help here. I use a Mac pro to edit my weddings and create DVDs for my clients that approach 1 hr and 40-50 mins.

I shoot with four HD cams and then capture to FCP as ProRes 422 (1440x1080). I then use a slick piece of software called plural eyes to create a multi clip to make editing a breeze. When I'm done I export the 1440x1080 sequence as a QuickTime video using sequence settings and preserving chapter markers. Then it's time for lunch, since the render time on that process can be 3 or 4 hours.

Next step use compressor to create a Dolby digital file for high quality sound and maximum compression.

I make my menus in Apple Motion.

Finally import to Dvd Studio Pro. Set menus and tracks to 16:9 pan and scan. Let it burn. You'll have an sd DVD that is very hard to distinguish in quality from HD and you'll only have used the FCP suite.

Steve Pustay

I've tried exporting to h264 but that doesnt seem to be recognized by DVD Studio Pro. Should I export to MPEG-2 using Compressor? If so, what's the best setting? I see with 8000 kBps I only get a 1 hour worth of DVD, which is not enough as my single footage is over 1.5 hour :(

What's the best export setting in Compressor for burning using DVD Studio Pro?

Johannes, in my view there is only one solution, a dual layer disk. Why would anyone consider throwing away quality when there's a perfectly acceptable alternative?

Johannes, in my view there is only one solution, a dual layer disk. Why would anyone consider throwing away quality when there's a perfectly acceptable alternative?Many domestic DVD players have problems playing burned dual-layer DVD. The discs themselves are more expensive plus the write speed is lower so that they take much longer to create. Isn't it just easier & better to stick to multiple single-layer discs?

Nigel, I've never encountered any problems myself so playing problems have not been an issue for me.

I write my disks in a 7-up duplicator with byte-for-byte checking independently on each disk so any difference in write speed is negligible and the additional blanks costs are passed on to the client.

I would rather accept any of these inconveniences than degrade my work, and dropping the bitrate does just that. With upscaling players now and goodness only what within the life of the product plus pride in my work mean that quality comes first for me. But I know people locally who happily deliver DVDs encoded at 4000kbps so some clients evidently don't notice or don't care.

Perhaps I should add that at wedding fairs I only show full HD demos on the screens for exactly the same reasons.

Philip, I wasn't suggesting delivering poor quality lower bitrate DVDs. I too use 8000Kbps but would just avoid dual-layer by giving the customer two single-layer discs. Two or more disks will only require one PPL/MCPS LM licence:-)

Nigel, I didn't consider that option - perfectly valid of course - for two reasons. Firstly we already give the client two disks - the programmes and the DVD they shoot on honeymoon using the camera we lend them for free. Secondly, although I'm no expert, I thought the PPL licence was per disk.

Secondly, although I'm no expert, I thought the PPL licence was per disk.As far as I understand it there is one licence required per production. They explicitly do not refer to a licence per disk & in fact don't refer to disks as such for the licence can cover as per the website
CD, cassette, minidisk, vinyl, DAT, DVD, Blu-ray disk, HD-DVD, VHS, CD-Rom or any other physical format notified by us.
You pay for a licence per 'Product'.

Nigel, whilst I don't disagree with your interpretation of the terms you quote, the terms also specifically state "The licences are in the form of holographic stickers, which must be applied to all copies of the video." Since the stickers are priced individually it would seem to me that if your product covers two disks you need two stickers.

Nigel, whilst I don't disagree with your interpretation of the terms you quote, the terms also specifically state "The licences are in the form of holographic stickers, which must be applied to all copies of the video." Since the stickers are priced individually it would seem to me that if your product covers two disks you need two stickers.The PPL holographic stickers are supposed to be stuck on the case not on the disc as that could cause playback errors.

Nigel, of course, but with respect, this is a detail - and a long way from whether it was preferable to lower the bitrate and jeopardise the image quality or use a dual layer disk. I could and possibly should remind readers that the licences we're writing about apply only to UK-produced and UK-exhibited programmes.

Steven,

I liked your MAC explanation. But What is the advantage of "Plural Eyes" over simply making a multiclip from your 4 cams in Final Cut Pro?

You mentioned it made editing much easier....any details are appreciated,

John Reilly

Because I don't have time code synched cams., I need to synch by a matching in point. Finding that common in point can sometimes be difficult if all the cams are not focused on exactly the same thing. ( I usually use a camera flash or some other event or at last resort a common sound). Plural eyes is an inexpensive piece of software that analyzes the audio tracks of the four cams and automatically synch them. By the time I go get a cup of coffee from the kitchen, I've got a perfectly synched multi track.

Not a required element for FCP multitrack work, but very cool!

Steve Pustay

Steve, sometimes I record audio on a digital recorder and sync it in post edit. However, the speed is usually slightly different from audio recorded from my camera. Usually after 5-7 minutes it became out of sync slightly and I have to re-sync the audio again.

With this software, will it also adjust the speed if necessary? Have you ever had issue where the audio you try to sync is at a slightly different speed?

Steve, sometimes I record audio on a digital recorder and sync it in post edit. However, the speed is usually slightly different from audio recorded from my camera. Usually after 5-7 minutes it became out of sync slightly and I have to re-sync the audio again.

With this software, will it also adjust the speed if necessary? Have you ever had issue where the audio you try to sync is at a slightly different speed?

I'll answer it for you, it won't. you have to resync it every few minutes or so or slow the pitch down.
do a search in google according to which recorder you're using. they might already have the "formula" of how much to slow down the audio for