I agree the vg10 would be a pain in the butt to use as a traditional camcorder.

But, if you adapt the methods of film style shooting you can solve the issues. For example, in the doc on Dylan in London it was as crazy as any wedding. So the solution was to shoot wide so everything was in focus. The 16mm lens is perfect for this type of shooting. When a CU was needed they walked up to the subject.

Also, folks didn't care if a zoom "in" went out of focus. They pulled it back ASAP. Thats why the look of an unfocused shot is so important.

Likewise exposure in high contrast situations weren't expected to have no blown highlights. This is why the ability to use a lens that has a circular iris is important. The ability to choose a lens with lots of internal reflections is also important.

To me it's not about going BACK but returning to the day when PHOTOGRAPHIC skills were required to shoot motion pictures. It was the thrill of applying those skills that made shooting fun.

But then I like cuts-only editing with only different speeds of fades to black. That's why the Media 100 was fine for me. I honestly draw a blank when confronted with folders of FX.

Conversly, when I shoot with an iPhone I tend to love FX because it covers over my lack of control during shooting.

So I agree this camera is certainly not for most. And, the inability to use the VF while controlling is a horrible problem. I'll hope someone will find the switch that senses LCD position.

Steve, I appreciate what you are saying. Thankfully the vigorous competition among the camera manufacturers in the large sensor camera market will likely bring an assortment of cameras in many 'sizes and flavors' that will satisfy a diverse range of applications and budgets. It's great to see this dynamic in the camera market especially considering the overall economic conditions now.

You are right -- this is just the beginning.

In this still from a video it seems both LCD and VF are on.

It would be great if that turns out to be the case. Unfortunately the review on Sony NEX VG-10 Camcorder Review (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/camcorders/vg10.shtml) says not. Here is a quote from the review:

"– Control Placement and User Interface. I'll be frank. The user interface on the VG10 is really not that good. It is based on that of the NEX5 which I roundly criticized when I reviewed that camera here recently. It improves on the NEX5 slightly by having a few additional buttons, but these are all covered by the LCD screen when it is closed.

If you shoot using the EVF then you'll likely have the screen closed, and this means that not a single control is available unless you open the screen cover, at which point the view through the EVF disappears, and reappears on the LCD. So to shoot while making any adjustment, even something as simple as exposure compensation, requires you to have the LCD screen open, even if you're not using it for viewing. Who on the Sony design team thought that this was a good idea?"

I'm sure it would be a trivial change in the camera's firmware to allow both to be on. Let's hope Sony decides to support this.

I wonder if the reviewer had the manual to read before making this comment. It may well be a menu change as is the case with the NX5U. Default is only one active but there is a menu change in the NX5U that allows both to be on and I wonder if this is also the case with the VG10.

Ron Evans

I had the exact same thought ...

One of the - few - buttons in the controls appears to be a Finder/LCD button. Assuming it works like the same button on other Sony cameras, I suspect it will switch the Finder on, even with the LCD screen open.

Sony, if you are reading this, please note. If you have a burning desire to artificially cripple the VG10, leave this function alone. I hope the camera you provided to Luminous-landscape for review was an anomaly. LCD or viewfinder selection isn't a 'pro' feature; it's a fundamental function without which the camera will be a pain to use.

In this still from a video it seems both LCD and VF are on.
Actually, no. The power switch is in the OFF position, so what you are seeing on the LCD and VF are reflections.

--AOK--

good catch!

of course there is a sensor of some type that knows when the lcd is closed. typically a tiny magnet in the door gets close to a Hall sensor. On the jvc folks simply stuck a tiny magnet at the right spot.

you guys with a sony camcorder could try a magnet now!

I just don't understand the NEX-VG10. Why not just buy a Canon 7D?

Because one wants a VIDEO camera optimized for video rather than a STILL camera with video features... it's a new and unexplored niche, one that may well turn out to be lucrative for Sony. They've also just released new SLT (another new category of camera) cameras using Alpha mount lenses, also more video oriented, although they are still cameras.

I'm still slightly undecided, as I like the looks of the new a55 and have some nice Alpha lenses already, plus the old DSLR is overdue for upgrading, and the DLSR versions of the new cameras have suddenly and mysteriously been "delayed", pre-orders cancelled, and pulled from the Sony site... yet the VG10 is quite the looker...

I just don't understand the NEX-VG10. Why not just buy a Canon 7D?


In another part of DVInfo there was a poster asking about using a Canon 60D / 7D / 5D Mark 2.
He wanted to use it for shooting weddings unattended from the back of a church.
Needless to say, the 4 GB / 12 minute limit was a major no-go for him.

Furthurmore, there is a well known issue with most of the above Canon HDSLRs overheating
if used continuously for protracted lengths of time. Using a video camera avoids both of
the above issues.

For my part, looking at the date B&H gives for this camera, it should be available in less than 2 weeks.
I am looking forward to reviews and demo footage.

I'm not sure if anyone commented on the fact that some of the long shots with blurred backgrounds had an odd look to the blur. They were more like blurred circles, not a smooth continuous blur. Anybody else see that?

May be old news Nikon adapter to be released end of September

Sony NEX-VG10 In the flesh! : Lens Adaptor.Com (http://www.lensadaptor.com/2010/09/03/sony-nex-vg10-in-the-flesh/)

...maybe they were using one of those telephoto lens with the mirror inside...doesn't that give such circular blurs? I saw from the credits that they had used a number of lenses beside the one supplied.

I'm not sure if anyone commented on the fact that some of the long shots with blurred backgrounds had an odd look to the blur. They were more like blurred circles, not a smooth continuous blur. Anybody else see that?

like if you use mirror lenses for example

Sony, if you are reading this, please note. If you have a burning desire to artificially cripple the VG10, leave this function alone. I hope the camera you provided to Luminous-landscape for review was an anomaly. LCD or viewfinder selection isn't a 'pro' feature; it's a fundamental function without which the camera will be a pain to use.

So what is the LCD/VF button do?

No one seems to have noticed it!

Where's the LCD/VF button? Did they rename the Finder/LCD button, or is it another button?

Finder is VF and LCD is LCD. Right?

Twixtor is the program creates 23.98 from 29,97. You use it on your movie.

In another part of DVInfo there was a poster asking about using a Canon 60D / 7D / 5D Mark 2. He wanted to use it for shooting weddings unattended from the back of a church.
Needless to say, the 4 GB / 12 minute limit was a major no-go for him.
This has been the killer for me as well. I would otherwise love to pick up a 60D, maybe even 2, but that time limit issue ...

When will Canon have a VG10 competitor?

Where's the LCD/VF button? Did they rename the Finder/LCD button, or is it another button?


Take a look at this picture and know....

http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/1007/sonycamcorder/Terminal_NEX-VG10.jpg

Be nice to see it with a square lens hood.

does anybody know where I can find online user manual? I hate hard copies,

My camera is stuck on a Fedex plane that has "mechanical problems!"

Have to wait until Thursday afternoon.'

Steve, try to sleep, it's like the night before Christmas...

Myself, I'm waiting for more info and access to the a55... looks pretty good, and I've already got the old Minolta glass (which when I tested turns out to be much quieter when focusing than the later Sony plastic fantastic lenses!).

When I read about the "stiff" zoom ring I wonder if Sony has used less than max quality design/parts. A good lens should be a joy to use. But, I noticed the same stiffness with the GH1.

I guess we can't expect post WW2 Nikon quality from Sony consumer products with the yen at under 85.

PS: At least the plane didn't crash!

When I read about the "stiff" zoom ring I wonder if Sony has used less than max quality design/parts.
oh yes they have,and it is really stiff it also has cheap, easy to stain with fingerprints steel\ruber coffe mug look; overall I'm not impressed with the stock lens
I got the Nikon adapter on the way, then I'll see what this thing can do with the real glass, too bad IS and autofocus will be gone, so it'll be usable on the tripod only

All my stuff arrived and am starting to open now.

But, full manual operation doesn't force tripod use. I've had many movie cameras that were all manual and I had no problem hand holding. And the Nikon lenses should be sweet.

Pics!!! We need pics!!

No pics yet, but I see why the zoom ring is stiff. It must drive the lens in and out about 6 inches! Very hard to turn rotary motion into in/out motion.

The focus ring is continuous and feels fine.

Got the 16mm/2.8, adaptor, 50mm/1.8, and a flash. I've got several Alpha lenses too.

In a typical livingroom with the big zoom, the exposure was perfect. With the f2.8 it would be even better and with the f/1.8 it would be as bright as day. I'm using a shutter-speed of 1/40th is is correct for 30fps.

PS: It will record for 13 hours!!!

Well, Steve- we're all waiting with baited breath to hear the details.
I had preordered the cam, then got cold feet and cancelled, now I am tilting back the other way again.
More in due course???

It can probably be said that as of Thurs. 9/16/2010 people are searching for good reasons to buy the DSLR for video shoots.
Keep the news coming, Steve. We're hanging on every word.

I had preordered the cam, then got cold feet and cancelled, now I am tilting back the other way again.

I wouldn't do that, it's too expensive for a toy, you'll get better results with CX550 or HF S21/200, absence of power zoom, and IS/AF with faster lenses, makes VG10 a very special piece usable on tripod only in low light environment.
Maybe I am too demanding, but since I got VG10 i really started appreciate all other camcorders that I own.

As was hinted at earlier in this thread, it could be that the VG10 appeals to the "old timers" who remember when nothing about shooting was automated. When we see the hand-driven zooms in documentaries like "Woodstock" we get a rush.
Camcorders nowadays are so easy to use, a dog could operate one!

I wouldn't do that, it's too expensive for a toy, you'll get better results with CX550 or HF S21/200, absence of power zoom, and IS/AF with faster lenses, makes VG10 a very special piece usable on tripod only in low light environment.
Maybe I am too demanding, but since I got VG10 i really started appreciate all other camcorders that I own.

Well, Buba, you are indeed the voice in my other ear.
I do love my CX550. It's still hard for me to believe that a $1K consumer cam could set the standard, but it really does.
When I think about buying the VG10, I make the assumption that Sony will extend this line over time, including faster E series lenses with AF, AE, IS, etc. That's when the voice of caution tells me I should just wait and see :)

Is anybody thinking that this would work great with a Nanoflash?

I sure hope that it has uncompressed video out from the HDMI connector.

Good point Ron. I know people have had great results with the CX550 HDMI out to the Nano.

As was hinted at earlier in this thread, it could be that the VG10 appeals to the "old timers" who remember when nothing about shooting was automated. When we see the hand-driven zooms in documentaries like "Woodstock" we get a rush.
Camcorders nowadays are so easy to use, a dog could operate one!

It's appealing because it's the first affordable large sensor HD video camera. "Old timers" has nothing to do with it. The reason there isn't a power zoom is because DSLR lenses don't have a power zoom.

I find it appealing because it offers a large sensor and interchangeable DSLR lenses, which can make for a shallow depth of field. All in a camcorder body, not a DSLR. That's why it's appealing. It has nothing to do with "old timers."

Right now, on its release date, it has no competition.

Is anybody thinking that this would work great with a Nanoflash?

I sure hope that it has uncompressed video out from the HDMI connector.


Yes. But I would like to know first:
1. If the camera outputs uncompressed HDMI when shooting.
2. The camera shoots interlaced or progressive, even if the latter is most likely in psf.

Well, Buba, you are indeed the voice in my other ear.
I do love my CX550. It's still hard for me to believe that a $1K consumer cam could set the standard, but it really does.
When I think about buying the VG10, I make the assumption that Sony will extend this line over time, including faster E series lenses with AF, AE, IS, etc. That's when the voice of caution tells me I should just wait and see :)


99% of the time I'm on a tripod, so no IS doesn't bother me in the slightest, but no AF does.
It's those near-sighted over 50 year old eyes thing.

As far as faster glass goes, with an adapter(s) you can put Canon, Nikon, or Pentax glass on.
Sony coming out with more lenses would be very nice, but is not essential.

"... it could be that the VG10 appeals to the "old timers" who remember when nothing about shooting was automated. When we see the hand-driven zooms in documentaries like "Woodstock" we get a rush."

Very good. :)

My tag line is "Putting the Photographer Back in Shooting Video."

The VG10 has nothing unnecessary. Nothing but the manual controls needed to shoot video, but with the capability to set each function to Auto as needed.

The big difference between the VG10 and the film cameras pictured is they had a manual control for each and Sony has gone with an computer interface -- one that would never have been accepted by Steve Jobs.

I shot in bright daylight and with the shutter-speed at 1/40th second the aperture was between f/16 and f/22. Clearly an ND filter is needed.

PS: I've owned the 4008ZM and the K2.

I don't mind the auto functions being there, I just don't want to fight them, working out work arounds when I want to be controlling the camera, not the camera controlling me.

Each function has an AUTO ON/OFF mode controlled by its own button. You don't even have to go into the menu!

I keep finding the so called "reviews" are wrong. For example, an Alpha 50(90)mm/1.8 does have its aperture controlled by the VG10.

However, everyone needs to understand HOW these STILL camera lenses work via the adaptor. They STEP from one aperture size to another. That means the step-size is determined by the lens itself. That means, you cannot use a STILL lens and have it work like a camcorder lens. Now that's not a huge surprise, but I'll bet there will be screams about it.

The solution, of course, iS to choose older (non-DT) lenses that have an aperture ring. These, of course, will require fully manual operation -- although the VG10 signals you when the exposure is correct. Think of the "match-the-needle" movie cameras.

So for those who want a REAL manual camcorder, the VG10 is really sweet!

Yet, with the E-mount lenses -- it is quite happy to run automatically.

PS: Because of the hi-rez LCD/VF I haven't found getting focus any different than using the ground-glass on any of my film cameras. In fact, if anyone cares, I can explain why the current camcorder Focus Assists don't really work. But, it's time for sleep.

ha ha My first 16mm film project in college was shot on a softball-sized Bell and Howell 70 spring-wound camera with a 3-lens turret. You could get about 60 seconds before you had to rewind. Edits were with razor blades and film cement.
My first tv cameraman job was with a Canon Scoopic. Had a manual zoom and a magnetic strip on the 16mm film but when you edited it (same day edit, mind you) you had to take into account the sound head was 16 (or was it 18?) frames ahead of the picture.
My first documentary film was shot on a Nizo 6080 Super 8 camera with manual zoom. There I was standing waist-deep in the rushing Kennebeck River in Maine having to change film cartridges because you only got about 3 minutes to a roll.

Funny thing is that the images on those 16mm and even 8mm films still rival what's being shot on today's HD cameras! That's why it seems like it's always "one step forward, two steps back."

Steve, I'd like to know why the so-called "focus-assist" doesn't really work. Let me guess...by the time the image is magnified, it's so soft it's impossible to tell the difference between "soft" and "softer?"

Steve why are you shooting 1/40 shutter. Are you not shooting 30p (29.97p)? If so you should shoot 1/60 which would help with the need for ND.

One piece of feedback that I will be looking for in early reviews is the performance of auto focus on the VG10. It appears that the camera can be set to use different zones in the field of view to control auto focus. If the camera will allow you to set an area that will be the focus reference, that will be very useful in some shooting situations. The problem with most video cameras is that you have no control over this. As a result, auto focus can be very dangerous to use particularly if you are using the 'rule of thirds' to frame your subject. You run a real risk of the camera focusing on the background or another subject.

This problem will be even more serious with a camera with a shallow depth of field like the VG10 because an out of focus condition can be much more severe. I almost never use auto focus now because of these problems. But there are times when it would be useful if it could be depended on. One of the problem that I have with all but the best DSLR shooters is the wandering focus and out of focus shots. Because of the shallow depth of field, managing focus is more difficult with these cameras.

Steve, I'd like to know why the so-called "focus-assist" doesn't really work. Let me guess...by the time the image is magnified, it's so soft it's impossible to tell the difference between "soft" and "softer?"

When a camcorder has an image magnification feature it magnifies the center of the image.

1) You can use it before you start shooting to achieve focus. Unfortunately, IF it turns off when you begin recording you cannot use it to adjust focus while shooting.

2) IF it does NOT turn-off, it's very hard to frame the scene because you are only seeing the center!

When a camcorder features a “peaking” function that places a colored outline on sharp edges that are in focus it too can create problems.

1) Soft edges like a close-up of a face may not be outlined at all.

2) At other times everything is outlined. This indication, while seemingly unlikely, is quite valid because when shooting wide everything WILL be in focus. Unfortunately, the entire scene becomes red, blue, or green.

Most of these functions were introduced because the VF/LCD were only quarter FullHD. That is no longer the case.