YouTube - Sony Handycam NEX-VG10 New videos show the features (NEX VG10) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeYvbH-V8aI)

The low light/night shots using the standard 18-200mm lens look pretty durn good.
I had questions as to how the VG10 would do in low light w/ the standard lens. I was afraid you would need to switch over to an f 1.4 prime to get decent performance, but apparently not.

How soon do you think they will have an adapter so we can use nikon or canon, etc. lenses?

I've heard there is not another model coming after this, ie the upgrade with xlr, etc. That this is the model for this size. Maybe that bigger beast(with the price tag) will be the big brother to the VG10. I've heard canon nor JVC will be releasing anything like this within the next 18 months probably. I wouldn't expect canon too with the 5D and 7D out there anyway.

I'm looking forward to this camera. I like the smaller size for travel and getting that versatile DOF using different lenses but still having a more conventional camera body to it. I played with my Nikon's 720p video and while I like the picture coming from it, using it as a video camera and not being 1080 is a real drag. I want to be able to use my already invested in Nikon glass to attach to this Sony VG10.

I own the EX-1 and love it. But I like having lots of options on the table to complete a project depending on the needs of that project. Plus, as mentioned before, going to shoot some promo type footage or needing to travel where big camera isn't needed, this VG10 looks great; and I can save on my back carrying this thing around.

The low light/night shots using the standard 18-200mm lens look pretty durn good.
I had questions as to how the VG10 would do in low light w/ the standard lens. I was afraid you would need to switch over to an f 1.4 prime to get decent performance, but apparently not.

There is an evening shot in this Swiss video at about 3:13 on the time line which has a title saying it was shot with the stock lens.

I'm not sure how late this was taken. The sky looks kind of light which may be over-exposure as a result of the shooting settings or maybe it wasn't all that dark yet. And some places in Switzerland have street lighting that can put stage lighting to shame.

These querelous comments aside, the images do look very good as I mentioned the first time this link was posted. For anybody coming late to this thread, check out this video and the "Beautiful Bali" video that was linked a few pages back.

I'm not sure how late this was taken. The sky looks kind of light which may be over-exposure as a result of the shooting settings or maybe it wasn't all that dark yet. And some places in Switzerland have street lighting that can put stage lighting to shame.

The very same thoughts ran thru my mind as well- but they were shot with the f 3.4 stock lens, and they did look pretty credible, so I'm thinking that it's a definite possible maybe. Encouraging anyway.
The Bali low light shots look very nice, but they were all shot with fast lenses.
I was actually considering the notion that having a single prime 50mm f 1.4 Sony A lens w/ adapter could be a fairly cost effective ace in the hole for high quality low light shooting. With an effective 75mm angle of view, it could be pretty versitile, yet still be a fairly small extra item to carry.

Bob -- depending on how dark your shooting conditions are, you may well want to pack along that "A" lens as well as the zoom that is supposed to come stock with the VG10.

What prompts this is that I got to thinking about some shooting I did five years ago when I got my first HDV cam, a Sony HDR HC1 which Sony rated down to 7 lux. My mountain resort town has an annual Christmas-time weekend festival which we call "the Stroll." Its called "the Stroll" because that is what people get to do when we block off the main street in the evening. It is all bright and "Christmassy" and we sometimes even get the Currier & Ives snow fall, too.

I took my little HDR-HC1 downtown and got excellent night-time views under lighting rather like what you see in the Swiss video. But, later, when shooting wedding receptions indoors and with lights turned way down for "the mood" that wedding planners and DJ's seemed wont to create, the limitations of the 7 lux floor became obvious.

So, it seems to me that for the low light situation with the kind of nighttime street scene seen in the Swiss video or in my HC1 shooting, that VG10 stock zoom lens will be fine. With something darker, VG10 owners probably will want one of the other lenses (such as the "A" lens you mentioned) and will need to pay attention to focusing as was done in the dimmer parts of the temple scene at the end of the Beautiful Bali video.

This is meant as an observation and not criticism of the camera. After all, being able to switch lenses is a primary reason for getting a camera like the VG10, isn't it?

This is meant as an observation and not criticism of the camera. After all, being able to switch lenses is a primary reason for getting a camera like the VG10, isn't it?

Absolutely.
With an f 1.4 Sony A lens, the VG10 could quite possibly beat the image quality of the EX in low light.

"After all, being able to switch lenses is a primary reason for getting a camera like the VG10, isn't it?"

That's exactly the point of a CAMCORDER that can interchangeable with STILL cameras. Of course, you'll have to manually focus and manually zoom, but that is typical of shooting film.

The second "point" is the minimal DOF which is why the Bali "video" looks more like film than did my shooting at 24p with Sony's prototype V1 several years ago. This is the advantage of a large sensor.

Minimum DOF plus 25p or 30p will make a convincing film look.

For those who DEMAND 24p can get it several ways -- but a 25p unit and conform to 24p in FCP.

However, film fans needs to realize that unless they go to real film -- 24p will be either seen with 2-3 pulldown on 60Hz displays OR at 120/240 Hz. The former is how film has always been seen on TV. The latter looks like "video."

...at 120/240 Hz.... looks like "video."

120hz by itself does not cause the video look; it's only when motion interpolation is used that the filmic motion becomes mutilated. This anti-filmmaker criminal has many aliases: anti-judder, motionflow, real120, clear motion, trumotion, smooth 120, auto motion plus, fine motion enhanced, clearscan, MEMC, IFC, etc. When motion interpolation is disabled, 24p is displayed with motion that is much more similar to an actual film projection (and a lot better than 60hz). Of course, a lot of the rabble proably prefer to have it cranked up (along with all the other settings).

In my experience watching a lot of 50Hz PAL on progressive (line-doubled) TVs with 100Hz refresh -- NO INTERPLOATION -- film look like video. That's why refresh rate itself is a variable. Anything more than 72Hz becomes a problem.

The faster the refresh rate the briefer the black-period between presentations. Ultimately, the eye sees a "near continuation" image. As the image moves from 48 flashes per second to none -- a move that makes it look less like theater film.

Only the Kuro offered 72Hz and one Pana plasma offers 96Hz. So, you have a choice of a video look or pulldown judder.

Thus, 25p viewed at 50Hz or 30p viewed at 60Hz really come closer to the theater experience than 24p.

"Also, if it's true, the shoe is finally on the other foot--us guys who like the motion rendering of 60i will be whining about being stuck with 30p motion--hands wringing..."why, oh why couldn't they give us TRUE 60i". I can hear it already :)"

"Getting back to the "deinterlacing" issue.

Yes - this is what is properly called psf - "progressive, segmented frame". Exactly how films have always been shown on TV."

"The point is a true 60i camera exposes at a rate of 60 frames a second so the temporal motion is 60 frames a second. Since the 60i camera only records fields every 1/60 second, and two fields make a frame the standard says its 30 frames a second !!!! 60i is smoother, its taking twice as many shots of the scene as 30P."


Let's look at some of these comments:

1) PsF is NOT how film is moved to video. Film to video is done by adding 2-3 pulldown that converts 24p to 60i. PsF is essentially doing nothing to the video! :)

Each progressive frame has by definition no interlace artifacts because all lines are captured at once. Now the frame is compressed. (The same thing is done with interlace -- both fields are compressed together.) Viewing on the camcorder's LCD and VF is progressive.

So where is the "interlace?" Only in the header of the compressed video. It says "60i" so your NLE knows what the video "is." Of course, it is a lie because the video isn't 60i. Why lie? Because every NLE will accept 60i (or 50i)!

You can edit PsF 60i no differently than 60i. There is NO conversion! NO deinterlacing! (Field-based FX will still work fine -- even though not needed.) And, exports to BD or DVD will work fine. (You can't make 25p or 30p BDs.) No hassle for the consumer. Except, you should never deinterlace going to the Internet unless it is a Weave deinterlace.

-------

PsF can NOT be used with 24p -- although Sony does/did 24p into/over 48i -- which is where the term PsF came from. There really is no need to use the term PsF. I still like 1080i60/24p because it shows the 1080i60 which we all know. But, PsF is kind of nice because it should get folks away from think about deinterlacing.

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Yes -- those wanting the 60i look may be unhappy IF they see strobing. But, will they? It depends on the shutter-speed we can select. A point midway between 1/30th and 1/60th is ideal.

Sony can also "negative judder correction" as they do with CineAlta cameras.

Looking at the bicycle VG10 footage there are definitely objects (the white hat) which appears as two slightly displaced images. This is not found with pure progressive. It was not motion blur which is VERY clear on the feet. It's possible is Sony is doing a bit of frame blending which would help with strobing. Which could explain why Sony will not say 25p/30p.

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The statement "taking twice as many shots" is kind of correct -- the statement "60i camera exposes at a rate of 60 frames a second" is not correct because while ALL CCD/CMOS lines may be exposed every 1/60th second (a FRAME) only one FIELD is actually recorded each 1/60th second. So 60i is 60 FIELDS per second. The number of images/second is 2X that of 30p which is why it is so much smoother.

=====

For lots more. read: http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/solutions-judder-problem/index1.html

How soon do you think they will have an adapter so we can use nikon or canon, etc. lenses?

I've heard there is not another model coming after this, ie the upgrade with xlr, etc. That this is the model for this size. Maybe that bigger beast(with the price tag) will be the big brother to the VG10. I've heard canon nor JVC will be releasing anything like this within the next 18 months probably. I wouldn't expect canon too with the 5D and 7D out there anyway.

I'm looking forward to this camera. I like the smaller size for travel and getting that versatile DOF using different lenses but still having a more conventional camera body to it. I played with my Nikon's 720p video and while I like the picture coming from it, using it as a video camera and not being 1080 is a real drag. I want to be able to use my already invested in Nikon glass to attach to this Sony VG10.

I own the EX-1 and love it. But I like having lots of options on the table to complete a project depending on the needs of that project. Plus, as mentioned before, going to shoot some promo type footage or needing to travel where big camera isn't needed, this VG10 looks great; and I can save on my back carrying this thing around.

I would imagine that 3rd party manufacturers would want to see a fair number of VG10s out in use before trying to market an adaptor for non Sony lenses. Could be a while.
I'm in the same boat with the EX1- it's a fantastic camera, but it is big and heavy.I do a lot of travel projects and run n' gun stuff where there is just no way I'm hauling the EX around with me. I've gotten some great images with the little Sony CX550 and that's what I currently travel with, but it has its limitations. The VG10 potentially looks like a great camera for travel.
Another problem with the EX is that it can attract the wrong kind of attention ("Sir,may we see your filming permit?").
The VG10 may be just small enough to blend in unobtrusively with the tourists ;-)

Spotted this:

Sony E Mount lens adaptors coming soon : Lens Adaptor.Com (http://www.lensadaptor.com/2010/07/17/sony-e-mount-lens-adaptors-coming-soon/)

Spotted this:

Sony E Mount lens adaptors coming soon : Lens Adaptor.Com (http://www.lensadaptor.com/2010/07/17/sony-e-mount-lens-adaptors-coming-soon/)

Duhh...
I totally forgot about the NEX still cameras.
Of course, that's what will drive the development of the Nikon and Canon 35mm lens adaptors, not the VG10.

One thing I do wonder about re Nikon & Canon lenses with the VG10:
The Sony A lenses w/ E adapter clearly allow for camera driven exposure (f stops) and full "auto exposure", although focusing is manual.
I'm thinking that with non Sony 35mm lenses, both focus and f stop may be manual.

I am a former Alpha shooter (A900) and current EX1 owner. Some of the Alpha lenses are absolutely amazing: CZ 24-70, CZ 85/1.4, CZ 135/1.8, STF 135, CZ 16-35. This camera could be a dream machine by adding a nanoFlash so you can get any framerate and very high bitrate.

However, I am very worried about its Dynamic Range. I am surprised that I am the only one bringing this up. In the Bali video, look at how the sky is blown out on many shots and also the waves crashing and how they are completely blown out. The part with the parade looked like a cheap camcorder due to its low DR. I hope that the cameramen and editors of this video just don't have a clue and that is why the DR appears to be so low. For it to be a serious video camera, it MUST compete with the 12/13 stops of the 7D/5D.

I did particularly notice the parade shot, and it did look like a $200 DV Handicam.
It was somewhat perplexing: was it a DR shortcoming of the camera, or just a crappy day for shooting?
I shoot a lot in the tropics. Sometimes we have days where the sky is white due to haze, overcast, whatever, and the shot looks lousy no matter what camera is used. I usually end up tweaking the sky color in post to get around it.
The DR on the rest of the footage I've seen looks pretty good, and it's hard to imagine Sony would put out a 1" chip cam that didn't have good DR.
Honestly, if I had done that movie, I would have either tweaked, or deep sixed the parade shots.

Steve -
A couple reviews I've read indicate that the NEX5 camera tends to overexpose significantly, this is a very common thing with Sony cameras in my experience, and easy enough to adjust in most of them. Since the VG10 is supposedly based off the NEX5, it could be a "carryover" in the firmware. I don't know of any reason it shouldn't have adequate DR, and in fact probably has DRO (dynamic range optimization) features as do most all the Sony still cams, and I believe the last couple generations of consumer handycams

Robert -
The NEX3 and 5 have apparently been selling like sliced bread hotcakes in Japan (very very HOT) - lens adapters are being announced practically every day for various mounts, I'd expect the lens options to be nearly limitless, probably including a lot of unusual lenses as well as the "popular" mounts. I wouldn't expect auto iris for the majority of them - the Alpha mount has a legacy factor with Sony, and while they left off auto focus (A mounts have the motor in th body, with the attached noise problem, one of the reasons Sony was delaying releasing HDVSLRs), but they probably "wired through" the necessary contacts for f stiop adjustments. It's possible that 3rd party adapters could also provide a "pass through", but I'd expect technical issues to make this a case by case basis. You can already buy a bunch of different adapters from what I saw when I looked on eBay...

This camera could be a dream machine by adding a nanoFlash so you can get any framerate and very high bitrate.


My guess is that the frame rate is limited by the sensor as well. Hopefully they'll make rapid progress there in the future.


I hope that the cameramen and editors of this video just don't have a clue and that is why the DR appears to be so low.

Me too.

For it to be a serious video camera, it MUST compete with the 12/13 stops of the 7D/5D.

I expect it will be similar to the 7D with the correct settings. BTW, the 7D and 5D2 are only good for about 8-10 stops (depending on the white balance) before you get really nasty pattern noise (lines in the shadows). If they fix that for the next Canon, we'll get 13+ stops (at least when shooting raw).

A review site found DR to be 8 stops at ISO 200 (Minimum gain). It has been reported that it tends to over-expose which could be a way of saying low DR or saying AE is off. If the latter, one hopes there is a menu bias adjustment to lower AE.

Other questions:

Multiple gamma curves?

Knee?

Black compress?

Black stretch?

PS: "BTW, the 7D and 5D2 are only good for about 8-10 stops" One has to be very careful of "claims" of much more than 8-10 stops with any inexpensive camera.

A review site found DR to be 8 stops at ISO 200 (Minimum gain)

Steve
Was that a review of the NEX-5 still cam, or the VG10? If it's the VG10, could you post a link to that review site?
I haven't seen any reports that detailed yet & would love to take a look.
Thanks

I feel like an idiot. The # of stops I referred to was actually their Raw still images according to the Zacuto videos.

and of course there will be some difference between still and video performance... generally I've noticed you gan "get away with" noise in video that would never pass in a still...

Steve -

Sony almost always has an adjustment to AE, and with manual exposure, you could do what you want.

I don't expect to see any of those other features, at least not in the $2K consumer version, though a "pro" version certainly seems logical.

Steve
Was that a review of the NEX-5 still cam, or the VG10? If it's the VG10, could you post a link to that review site?
I haven't seen any reports that detailed yet & would love to take a look.
Thanks

Sorry, no review yet of the VG10. But, it was a review of the NEX-5 video. I suspect there won't be a lot of difference. Which is why there might not be many or any additional video functions.

I worry that, like the NEX-5, there will be no way to set shutter-speed when shooing video. If this is the case, we are back to the days of the JVC-HD10 and 30p being shot at high shutter-speeds and thus strobing video.

There is likely to be no switchable ND filter. But, with the large sensor, at least smaller aperatures can be chosen, although f/11 is likely going to be the limit. Thankfully the 10X is really slow. :)

Hey Steve there is full manual control on the nex-vg10 as long as you use the e-mount lenses. There is a 30min limit on the clips which I thought was not there but it's there. Maybe it's because it was a production model. The only basic things missing are presets, ND filters, additional frame-rates, and XLR inputs. One other thing is when using the e-adapter to alpha mount you have no control over the Alpha mount lens but it is defaulted to wide open. I have a friend who was allowed to test the camera and he passed along this info. I was very happy he did.

Monday

Action stills while recording video is my holy grail.
Will tthe nexvg10 shoot stills while recording video? One card slot for the vid and the other for stills?
The demo video of the Bali dancer seems to imply 7 shot burst in video mode but that might have been an unintentional implication created during the edit.

The fx7 will snap a still while recording to tape with no interruption of the video.
However video is paused for the stillshot if the camera is in standby mode and outputting video to a tethered device

Action stills while recording video is my holy grail.
Will tthe nexvg10 shoot stills while recording video? One card slot for the vid and the other for stills?
The demo video of the Bali dancer seems to imply 7 shot burst in video mode but that might have been an unintentional implication created during the edit.It does but there is a stop in the video recording exactly like the Canon DSLR's do. I was bummed out to hear that.

As long as the VG10 enables setting the shutter-speed -- all is well.

Now not to be a worry wort, but in one of the NEX-5 reviews they warned that many users will think they have shutter-control not realizing that once they start shooting video they don't. No warning that the speed is automatic.

Sony has traditionally NOT allowed shutter control on consumer camcorders because it is far easier to VERY accurately control shutter speed to control exposure. Control of iris is much more sluggish -- which is why they have allowed you to control it.

So unless one used a light meter to determine what the speed and iris SHOULD be

AND

the camera displays both shutter speed and aperture -- it is very hard to know one has set a specific speed.

Many DSLR users were fooled for days.

So if you could, please ask HOW your friend was sure they had shutter-speed control.

And, does the person remember what shutter-speeds were supported.

Thank you.

Steve the NEX-5 is completely different from the NEX-VG10. The NEX-VG10 has FULL manual controls. You can select the Aperture value, Gain, and Shutter Speed and WB (presets + custom) with no exposure shifts. You have AV, TV, A, M modes. Also you never had full manual controls on the FX1, FX1000, FX7, VX2000, VX2100? Those were all consumer cameras if I recall.

Great to hear the NEX-5 and VG10 are different. I was beginning to believe they were exactly the same firmware and controls.

The FX-series were prosumer. I'm talking about real consumer camcorders like the CX-12. At it's price, the VG10 falls into the pure consumer range. So if it gets full manual it will be an advance.

One other thing is when using the e-adapter to alpha mount you have no control over the Alpha mount lens but it is defaulted to wide open. I have a friend who was allowed to test the camera and he passed along this info. I was very happy he did.

Monday

According to Sony, the A mount lenses do have camera controlled f stop with the Sony E to A adapter:

"Unleash your creativity. Designed exclusively for the α NEX-3 and NEX-5 cameras, the LA-EA1 α mount adapter lets you to mount α A-mount lenses to your E-mount camera body. Additionally, this adapter has Auto Exposure support with aperture mechanism and includes a detachable tripod attachment."
I notice that there is no direct reference to the VG10, but you wouldn't expect the situation to be any different.

Well, if the Alpha lenses do NOT have even aperture control, then this camera is a complete piece of junk. As I learn more about this camera, it appears to be an epic fail on Sony's part.

Everything I've read says the Alpha adapter allows for aperature control, but focus is only manual. While the NEX series share a common sensor/lens mount, and no doubt some of the "guts", there's probably LOTS of flexibility in how the firmware and user interface (widely criticized in the NEX still camera reviews I've seen) are implemented. The VG10 already has a much more extensive set of video oriented adjustments because it's a "video camera".

Just to clarify, the camera has a single slot (DOH!), meaning simultaneous stills and video are probably not going to happen. Even on the CX550V, if you are in the 24Mbps recording mode, you lose simultaneous stills (that feature still works in the 17Mbps mode).

The CX550 also has shutter and iris control so Sony MAY be waking up to providing at least SOME access to the more serious user to the controls.

A bit more disconcerting is (if in fact they did) limited clip length - there's absolutely no reason to do this in a VIDEO camera, and would kill the camera instantly for event shooters, IMO. I've used a couple Sony P&S cameras (that shoot viedeo) with the limit, and it's more like 15-17 minutes in practice (will be even less in 24Mbps mode), and having to stay on top of stopping/restarting is NOT something that you want to deal with when shooting a live event.

I don't get the sense Sony is aiming the VG10 at event videographers who will likely want 60i anyway. This is for the low budget filmmaker -- narrative or documentary plus a few high-end wedding photographers.

It hits the largest aspirational segment: low-cost (street price under $2000), easy to use (simple), shallow DOF plus low frame-rate for a "non-video" look, and the option to build a prime lens collection at a reasonable cost -- just like the big boys.

It is perfect Sony marketing driven design. The things like no XLRs is a nit since most shooting at this price range is done with either a highly directional on-camera mic or a 2-channel wireless receiver that plugs into a 1/8" stereo jack. No audio gain control is solved with a tone generator into one channel.

I suspect that just as Beta SP shooters scoffed at the VX1000 -- the DV to HDV shooters are now nit picking about how the next generation of cameras are "missing" capabilities. No one who has a great story to tell is going to be hindered by what's "wrong" with the VG10 any more than they were restricted by the limitations of the VX1000.

And, given Apple's popularity, it's likely filmmakers will be editing on FCE/FCP and uploading to the internet. I suspect, many will export as 720p25/720p30. This by passes the need for 24p for BD. Since Toast will burn 1080i50/1080i60 using any Mac's Superdrive -- those who need a physical media will have one.

Few, if any, will ever go to film.

OK, I have read the majority of the posts on this thread and my head is spinning. So, how does this camcorder compare to my FX7 and SR11? I video Trains, scenery, sailboats, and wildlife, primarily. A small %of my stuff is indoor; model railroads, family stuff, and a couple of concerts. So how would this cam do with that stuff, compared to my FX7 and SR11?

Thanks.
Mike

According to Sony, the A mount lenses do have camera controlled f stop with the Sony E to A adapter:

"Unleash your creativity. Designed exclusively for the α NEX-3 and NEX-5 cameras, the LA-EA1 α mount adapter lets you to mount α A-mount lenses to your E-mount camera body. Additionally, this adapter has Auto Exposure support with aperture mechanism and includes a detachable tripod attachment."
I notice that there is no direct reference to the VG10, but you wouldn't expect the situation to be any different.Hmmmm. It could be that support for The A-mount lens through the E-mount adapter was not activated through firmware on the camera that was being tested. In which case then the comment on the lens defaulting to wide open are incorrect. Still I don't see manual control over the aperture in the quote from Sony only auto exposure.

.....A bit more disconcerting is (if in fact they did) limited clip length - there's absolutely no reason to do this in a VIDEO camera, and would kill the camera instantly for event shooters, IMO. I've used a couple Sony P&S cameras (that shoot viedeo) with the limit, and it's more like 15-17 minutes in practice (will be even less in 24Mbps mode), and having to stay on top of stopping/restarting is NOT something that you want to deal with when shooting a live event.
We gotta remember that with the firmware that was on the camera being tested the limit was at 30mins. There was no control over the alpha lenses through the sony adapter. Things can still change in the firmware for the final product.

Well, Mike, I think most of us got our heads spun by this pup...

The biggest noticeable difference IMO is going to be Depth of Field - I think one of the Swiss (not German methinks, though sounds similar) links has some CX550 vs VG10 samples that illustrate this well. I know I stumbled onto it a couple days ago, not sure if it was from here or another site I stumbled onto that seems to "leak" Sony related info...

It'll probably beat or match the FX7 and SR11 for low light performance. You'll have manual zoom because of the design, rather than the "rocker" of other cameras. It's got a big big sensor, and is supposed to be oriented towards video, but that's about all we can really "confirm" until it hits the shelves.

I'm looking at it as a video optimized DSLR... I've been wanting to add a DSLR to the mix for a while for certain shots, and missing the old FX7, so this is intriguing. I don't see my CX550s going anywhere anytime soon though. Whether I end up with an SLR/V or this is still up in the air... I've waited this long...

Monday -

I suspect the "30 minute" limit is variable depending on bitrate chosen - that's how it's done in other Sony still cameras. Practically speaking, it's usually a file size limit, but of course with every AVCHD camera in existence, they span the files, it would be absurd to NOT do that with this camera... unless it's a vestigial "feature" because this rose from the "still" side of the company...

They may still be working the kinks out, and I'd hope they are gathering feedback and going back and tweaking the firmware before final RTR. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few "bugs" even in the final release, that require updating - this is a pretty sudden "jump"in camera evolution.

I am rather skeptical that the VG10 will have any video recording time limit.
I have read more than one review that makes the point that- unlike the NEX still cam video- the VG10 will have no clip length limit.
Regarding camera controlled f stops with Sony A lenses- seems logical to me that if the camera can control the f stop for auto exposure, it should be able to control it for camera driven manual f stop settings as well.

We'll see what all of the details really are in good time, but this camera certainly looks like a big new step into the future for Sony video cameras, and I would be quite surprised if they made any really stupid, deal killer sort of mistakes with its features/functions.

OK, I have read the majority of the posts on this thread and my head is spinning. So, how does this camcorder compare to my FX7 and SR11? I video Trains, scenery, sailboats, and wildlife, primarily. A small %of my stuff is indoor; model railroads, family stuff, and a couple of concerts. So how would this cam do with that stuff, compared to my FX7 and SR11?

Thanks.
Mike

Good question. You could say I "wrote the book on the V1/FX7 and SR11" because I did. :)

My gut says the VG10 is like neither.

For better or worse, like HD, the powers that be in Japan have invented a new class of product just like Apple did with the iPad. Japan needs our money and Sony needs to earn a big profit -- and I don't think it's going to come from 3D. :(

This is the kind of product Samsung just can't do -- yet. Nor the Chinese. It's very sexy and jumps right into the BIG CHIP & INTERCHANGEABLE LENS craze. People will drool over having a "system" of lenses in the same way I did over having a Nikon "system" in the `60's.

The NEX is high-fashion. It's a statement of who someone wants to be.

You don't need the VG10 -- I didn't need an iPad. Yet I ordered in the first minutes it went on sale. And, I just ordered a VG10.

If I had to justify it -- I would say my experience with several DSLRs leads me to like the look they capture. The SR12 is like hi-rez DV -- so 20 Century. The V1 was "nice," but not really "HD" the the way the EX1 is.

Big hi-rez chips yield a more"art" look. If it had "grain" -- I would say it has a more 16mm look than video camcorders deliver. It's more "organic."

And, it's a $1000 cheaper than my Hi8 V5000 20-years later!

Well said, Steve. Your comments are very astute.
You could say the same thing about the NEX-5 still cam. At the end of the day, how different are your photos really going to be from a Canon G series, or other mid range small cams.
But Sony seems to have absolutely hit the "sexy" spot with it and they are flying off of the shelves all over the planet. Probably will be the same with the VG10. I ordered one too- the first day it was up on the Sony Style website.
Why? I'm not sure- I say it's to bump up my travel cam from a CX550, leave the EX at home, blah, blah... but it's more subtle than that, more like love at first sight. One look at the concept, style, size, and features and I knew I would only be satisfied to have one in my hands and run with it.
I may end up disappointed & be selling it in a year, but on the other hand...
It might be the triumph of hope over experience.
Those Sony guys, they're pretty clever.
P.S. They do a pretty good strip tease too.
Put out the glamorous web page, nice sample clips, a few specs, but nobody, nobody actually has the camera (except for Wolfgang, or whoever, hidden away in the Alps). Nobody knows for sure yet what it really is. It'll be interesting to see which veil comes off next.

I have an HPX500 and I'm thinking this little camera might make a good, inexpensive b-cam. I like the ability to get tight DoF. I can see using this camera for my TV commercial shoots, where I can get a really tight DoF on product shots. If I can figure out how to get good, clean audio into this thing, I can see doing some really nice looking interviews with the camera, with the subject in clear focus and the background properly out of focus.

I'm not a fan of the DSLR craze; I prefer my video cameras to be video cameras. But I love the DSLRs' ability to deliver outstanding DoF. If the VG10 can deliver that in a video camera body...hmmm, sounds like a winner to me. Do not underestimate the value that tight DoF can offer to the look of a video production.

I'd prefer at least a 35mbs capture rate, but what the heck - it's marketed as a comsumer cam.

Also, the 1080/60i is the preferred shooting rate. I don't know about you guys, but my clients like that format best. Seriously, if I was given a choice on which capture rate I could choose for the VG10, I'd pick 1080/60i. I feel it's the most versatile. If you want to deliver a program to, say, Discovery HD, the master has to be in 1080/60i (not that they'd accept a 24mbs capture for full acquisition).

"If I can figure out how to get good, clean audio into this thing, I can see doing some really nice looking interviews with the camera, with the subject in clear focus and the background properly out of focus.

Also, the 1080/60i is the preferred shooting rate. I don't know about you guys, but my clients like that format best."

Should be no problem with audio because many of today's camcorders -- even when the spec says "AGC" -- only has an audio limiter to prevent clipping. And, one definitely wants to prevent clipping with digital audio.

With today
s highly compressed web video keeping the background out of focus is a huge compression benefit as no background details need to be compressed.

Alas, no 60i shooting. But unless you pan or zoom a lot -- 30p should be fine for commercials.

Good question. You could say I "wrote the book on the V1/FX7 and SR11" because I did. :)

My gut says the VG10 is like neither.

For better or worse, like HD, the powers that be in Japan have invented a new class of product just like Apple did with the iPad. Japan needs our money and Sony needs to earn a big profit -- and I don't think it's going to come from 3D. :(

This is the kind of product Samsung just can't do -- yet. Nor the Chinese. It's very sexy and jumps right into the BIG CHIP & INTERCHANGEABLE LENS craze. People will drool over having a "system" of lenses in the same way I did over having a Nikon "system" in the `60's.

The NEX is high-fashion. It's a statement of who someone wants to be.

You don't need the VG10 -- I didn't need an iPad. Yet I ordered in the first minutes it went on sale. And, I just ordered a VG10.

If I had to justify it -- I would say my experience with several DSLRs leads me to like the look they capture. The SR12 is like hi-rez DV -- so 20 Century. The V1 was "nice," but not really "HD" the the way the EX1 is.

Big hi-rez chips yield a more"art" look. If it had "grain" -- I would say it has a more 16mm look than video camcorders deliver. It's more "organic."

And, it's a $1000 cheaper than my Hi8 V5000 20-years later!


Hi Steve. As you say, I probably don't need the VG10. It just seems so inviting. I suppose I can wait until next year to replace my SR11. I will not part with the FX7, I like it so much despite its limitations.
Thanks for your response.

Well, Mike, I think most of us got our heads spun by this pup...

The biggest noticeable difference IMO is going to be Depth of Field - I think one of the Swiss (not German methinks, though sounds similar) links has some CX550 vs VG10 samples that illustrate this well. I know I stumbled onto it a couple days ago, not sure if it was from here or another site I stumbled onto that seems to "leak" Sony related info...

It'll probably beat or match the FX7 and SR11 for low light performance. You'll have manual zoom because of the design, rather than the "rocker" of other cameras. It's got a big big sensor, and is supposed to be oriented towards video, but that's about all we can really "confirm" until it hits the shelves.

I'm looking at it as a video optimized DSLR... I've been wanting to add a DSLR to the mix for a while for certain shots, and missing the old FX7, so this is intriguing. I don't see my CX550s going anywhere anytime soon though. Whether I end up with an SLR/V or this is still up in the air... I've waited this long...

Hi Dave. Thanks for your response. This cam seems to becken me, but I am leary. I think since I do a lot of panning, that this cam may not be for me. Sigh....

Hi Mike -
Thing is, the two cams you've got are pretty good! I tend to upgrade fairly regularly, and I would recommend you retire the SR11 for the CX550V - big leap with the R CMOS, OIS and low light performance, but then again, it'd make the FX7 look outdated...

The VG10 also beckons me (funny, cause the concpt model was fugly...). I see it being a possibly good fit with my Alpha gear on the still side...

but I'm still waiting to see what hits in the actual Alpha mount SLR department - there were a couple mockups shown, but it's almost like Sony shifted gears completely when the NEX stuff became a reality. I do know that the delay in entry to the SLR market had to do with not being able to effectively use the Alpha lenses for video in auto modes (thus the "E" mount was born), so I'm mixed - this camera with perhaps the rumoured NEX7 body for stills (which I suspect may also be the rumoured A33/A55 project, but those are supposed to be "A" mounts...) would make a compact "system".

The VG10 definitely has a certain "sex appeal" to it!

It is perfect Sony marketing driven design. The things like no XLRs is a nit since most shooting at this price range is done with either a highly directional on-camera mic or a 2-channel wireless receiver that plugs into a 1/8" stereo jack. No audio gain control is solved with a tone generator into one channel.


Would it also be because the low budget film maker is recording second system sound?
So all they need is something they can sync to? Just asking...

It's less likely that low budget film makers, unless they're shooting dramas would want to get involved in double system sound, it's a lot of extra work syncing everything up in post. Plus, unless you've got time code, you need to use a clapper board or other sync mark while shooting - lip syncing by eye is time consuming..

Hi Mike -
Thing is, the two cams you've got are pretty good! I tend to upgrade fairly regularly, and I would recommend you retire the SR11 for the CX550V - big leap with the R CMOS, OIS and low light performance, but then again, it'd make the FX7 look outdated...

The VG10 also beckons me (funny, cause the concpt model was fugly...). I see it being a possibly good fit with my Alpha gear on the still side...

but I'm still waiting to see what hits in the actual Alpha mount SLR department - there were a couple mockups shown, but it's almost like Sony shifted gears completely when the NEX stuff became a reality. I do know that the delay in entry to the SLR market had to do with not being able to effectively use the Alpha lenses for video in auto modes (thus the "E" mount was born), so I'm mixed - this camera with perhaps the rumoured NEX7 body for stills (which I suspect may also be the rumoured A33/A55 project, but those are supposed to be "A" mounts...) would make a compact "system".

The VG10 definitely has a certain "sex appeal" to it!

So the CS550V(VG10) is that much different from the SR11 to make it even less compatible with the FX7?
Wow! That gives me something to think about!

Well, if the Alpha lenses do NOT have even aperture control, then this camera is a complete piece of junk. ...
Everything I've read says the Alpha adapter allows for aperature control, but focus is only manual. While the NEX series share a common sensor/lens mount, and no doubt some of the "guts", there's probably LOTS of flexibility in how the firmware and user interface (widely criticized in the NEX still camera reviews I've seen) are implemented...Hi
Someone I read quoted that although the NEX still cameras have aperture control through the Alpha lens adapter, on the VG10 it was (on the prototype) disabled because the Alpha still camera lenses don't have stepless apertures, so all sorts of momentary exposure problems rear their head if you video with them during zooming (as the lens ramps), or changing light levels with a prime lens.

I think it was one of the people who handled the prototype in Switzerland, but I can't find the link :(