Wow! Turns out I really don't want ACTIVE and don't need active on the 18-55.

Be careful what you wish for :)
If the VG10 "active" mode w/ 18-200 lens is anything near as effective as it is on the CX550, it is worth a lot to handheld shooters like me.
With the CX550, you can "feel" the cam lock on to the image and see it become rock steady in the LCD. Then, as your trembly, twitchy hands finally exceed the IS limit, you get just a gentle drift of the image, then it locks on again. Bottom line, the shots look very acceptable in post- not tripod steady, but they certainly pass the "I didn't notice any camera shake" test when the finished project is viewed. If I use a monopod with Active mode- even just stuck in my belt buckle- I can often get shots that look locked down.
Prior to "active" mode IS, I was constantly either having to throw out great shots as unusable (particularly due to camera "roll"), or spend the time motion tracking the shot if I had to use it.
IMO, it's pretty amazing technology.

Steve, what's the advantage of the wide angle lens Sony offers, in your opinion, since it's not that different from the wide end of the other lenses? Just the extra fast speed? Have you had a chance to use it?
I must say this camera fascinates me, both from its ergonomics and its affordability.
What other cameras in the pipeline do you see as offering competition? The Panasonic AF-101? At this level of large imager visual quality, do you think the differences are going to be discernable or are we now getting to the point of hair-splitting on issues like low-light performance and such?

Do you think we've now reached a watershed moment in HD cameras?
Sorry for all the questions but this seems to be the moment I've been waiting for for decades.

The advantage is it is an f/2.8 verses the f/3.5 on the 18-55mm when in Wide. So I will be sending it back. That's only about a 1/2 stop faster.

If you want to spend money --- the adaptor with a 30-35mm f/1.4 lens would really offer low light capability. You have to buy a WIDE lens because its focal length is multiplied by 1.8 and you really want a 50-60mm lens.

====

"I'm really looking at the a55, where I can use old Minolta glass..."

So are you saying the MC/MD lenses mount on a a55? If so, shouldn't they mount on the A-mount adaptor? A really fast "short" zoom that was fully manual would be nice. Something like a 28-84mm.

====

I've stopped using the 18-200. The 18-55 is so much nicer to use. Of course, now I have to practice what I teach -- don't zoom, walk up to the action! Being physically close looks different, but the world has gotten used to Tele shots. Yet most scenes in a movie are shot with the camera physically close.

PS: That is a potential advantage of the 18mm lens. The minimum focus distance may let you shoot in someone's "personal space." I need to compare that to the 18-55 at WIDE.

Steve have you used a Canon 7d?
Would you recommend a 7d owner make the change to the Sony NEX-VG10?

Steve and others have brought up the problems caused by the lack of ND filters in the VG10.
It's hardly an issue with cams like the CX550, because DOF is not a real issue.
Obviously, with the VG10, one would like to be able to restrain shutter speed, while using a low f-stop to create shallow DOF in bright daylight.
Singh-Ray produces a still camera variable ND filter (the VariND)- gives you from 2-8 stops by just turning the ring (like a circular polarizing filter), 77mm filter with 67mm/77mm step-up ring for the VG. The large filter size should eliminate vignetting on wide angle shots.
On paper this looks like an elegant solution.
For daylight shooting the filter could just live on the camera, set the cam for shutter priority at 1/30, 1/60 etc., then just dial the ND filter to get the desired f-stop. This was always sort of my procedure with the EX1, but somewhat limited by having only 2 ND choices.
I wonder if any of you have actual experience using the VariND for video.
Any downsides??

What I'd really like is a ND filter that gives you the choice of 0 to 6, 8 or whatever. That way you wouldn't have to keep unscrewing it. That's the problem I see with the VariFilter you're talking about. What a pain to be putting it on, then taking it off when it's too dark or too many shadows.

0 to 8 stops would be excellent.
Unfortunately, no such product exists.
My guess is that unless you are truely in "low light", you could routinely spot the cam 2 stops @ 1/60 as a matter of course.
We'll see...

Has anyone come up with a descriptive term for this next generation of video cameras such as the VG10 and the Panasonic AF100?
Seems to me the companies don't want to make the camera too user-friendly so they're putting an industrial twist on it...boxy and (probably) somewhat unbalanced. From what Steve says, the ergonomics of the VG10 with the supplied lens is not so good. I imagine the same can be said for the AF100 and the Red Scarlet if that ever materializes.

Nevertheless, we are getting the sort of images we've been longing for. It's just that the companies don't want to produce a product that competes with their large-imager shoulder-mounted cameras. So I guess boxy is the only other direction they could go. (Well, triangles and globes come to mind...but let's not give them any more bad ideas!)

The Pana AF 100 absolutely looks like a shoebox.
IMO, the VG10 is a Masseratti by comparison. It's actually pretty stylish.
The VG is reported to be a bit front heavy with the 18-200 lens. Supposedly, the large battery (FV 100) corrects that a bit. Also a left hand forward (fingers under the focus ring) might even out the distribution of weight.
There's not much weight to begin with- I think around 3 lbs with battery and lens.

[photokina] Sony Unveils 7 Lens Units for NEX Mirrorless Cameras

Sept 27, 2010 16:51


The four interchangeable lenses to be released within 2011. A wide-angle single focus lens, single focus macro lens, single focus portrait lens and telephoto lens with the brand name of "Carl Zeiss."


A zoom lens, wide-angle zoom lens and single focus middle-range lens are scheduled to be released within 2012 under the brand name of "G Lens."


A flash unit is under development.


It will become possible to use the autofocus function with lenses equipped with an SAM or SSM motor.


Users will be able to assign the functions to change ISO sensitivity, auto HDR (high dynamic range) and aperture value to buttons.


It is important for SLR camera users to quickly change ISO sensitivity, etc.


It will become possible to shoot movies with an aperture value set for shooting still images. Currently, an aperture value is automatically set for shooting movies and cannot be adjusted by a user.

Sony Corp will launch seven interchangeable lenses for its "NEX" series of mirrorless cameras in 2012.

This was announced by Masashi Imamura, president of the company's Personal Imaging & Sound Business Group, at photokina2010, which is taking place in Cologne, Germany. Currently, there are only three interchangeable lenses that are compatible with the "E-mount," a lens mount for the NEX.

When Sony asked the users of the NEX about the camera, an overwhelmingly majority of them said that they want more lenses, said Toru Katsumoto, Sony senior general manager, Imaging Division 3.

Sony will release a wide-angle single focus lens, single focus macro lens, single focus portrait lens and telephoto lens under the brand name of "Carl Zeiss" within 2011. And the company intends to launch a zoom lens, wide-angle zoom lens and single focus middle-range lens under the brand name of "G Lens" within 2012. At photokina 2010, mock-ups of those lenses were exhibited along with a flash unit.

Imamura also announced that Sony started to consider disclosing the specifications of the E-mount to third-party manufacturers. Some manufacturers have already released mount adapters, and an increasing number of users are attaching the lenses of film cameras to the NEX cameras.

The specifications of the E-mount include mechanical elements such as shape and electronic elements that deal with signals. But the company has not yet decided to what extent it will disclose the specifications.

=========

Sony will update the firmware of the NEX in mid-October 2010 and the firmware of the NEX-VG10 camcorder in mid-November 2010 to responds to the following user complaints, which were cited most frequently.

- When a lens for the A-mount is attached to the NEX by using the "LA-EA1" mount adapter, its autofocus function does not work.

- It is not possible to change ISO sensitivity, auto HDR (high dynamic range) or aperture value by pressing a single button.

- It is not possible for users to set an aperture value for shooting a movie.

===============

MORE ABOUT FIRMWARE:


Here's a detailed list of the changes in this firmware update:

Adds a user-selectable option to drop you back into whatever menu item you had last selected, vs. always taking you to the top of the menu system when you hit the Menu button. (A huge improvement in usability; one that frequently had us gnashing our teeth as we fiddled with the cameras many options while testing the prototypes.)

Adds a user-selectable option to make the NEX menus wrap so scrolling off the bottom will take you back to the top entry again. (Not quite as important as the first change above, but this still removes an enormous annoyance.)



Adds customizable buttons: A gigantic improvement for experienced users. The center button and lower-left button on the camera's back (see illustration above) can now have a wide range of camera functions assigned to them. Sony reps at the press event didn't have an exact number for how many functions could be assigned, but said it was "a whole passel" -- potentially 20 or more. Configurable options include things like white balance, ISO, exposure mode, etc. The center button can have up to three functions assigned to it simultaneously, which can be selected by pressing multiple times or pressing and scrolling with the rear control dial. The lower left button supports just one function at once. Bottom line, you'll be able to have up to four camera functions close at hand, rather than having to delve into the menu system.

Steve and others have brought up the problems caused by the lack of ND filters in the VG10.

I've researching (hours) and testing and its now clear I'm going to have to write a lesson on DOF for my book. Fundamentally: illumination, focal-length, distance to subject, amount of motion "of" or "within" frame, and ND strength must ALL be considered. Each of these is a variable!

So, the need for a vari-ND is high -- but the cost is also high. Cokin makes an assembly that holds drop-in filters and that may be a solution.

I'm now only using the 18-55 zoom and shooting bright sunlight with an ND8 I understand how to get a shallow DOF with a reasonably slow shutter-speed.

But, the typical buyer is NEVER going to figure it all out!

PS: Sony sells an ND8 for both zooms. But, I stuck a 52mm into the 18-55 lens-hood so it goes on/off easily. A 5- or 6-stop would even be better, but they are rare and expensive.

The VG is reported to be a bit front heavy with the 18-200 lens. Supposedly, the large battery (FV 100) corrects that a bit. Also a left hand forward (fingers under the focus ring) might even out the distribution of weight.

I find the long lens to be unuseable hand-held! Adding weight will help, but then it's too heavy for me.

Worse, a QUARTER turn moves the zoom lens 6-inches.

On the 18-55 a HALF turn moves the zoom lens 1-inch.

The mechanical advantage of the long lens is like 12X worse. Unless you have a really heavy tripod, you'll not be able to zoom without jiggling the camera.

The 18-55 rings are like silk.

You can't make a long zoom lens using plastic parts! The friction is just too high. Sony should have done a 6X lens.

So, the need for a vari-ND is high -- but the cost is also high.

The Singh-Ray VariND is pricey @ around $350, but I noticed another brand (LCW Fader ND) that B&H carries for only $125.
It has the same specs: 2-8 stops. I have no idea what the quality issues are with this sort of product, or the trade-offs that might be involved with using one for HD video photography.
I was hoping someone on this forum had some experience to share.

Worse, a QUARTER turn moves the zoom lens 6-inches.
I'm noticing that my Nikon 18-200 SLR lens is actually similar to the Sony E in that it is only about a quarter turn from wide to full tele.
Using it for still photography, the action seems smooth enough, but I could never do a steady hand held video zoom with it.
I'm thinking maybe it's just going to be a fact of life that without servo zoom or tripod, zoom shots are not going to be possible with the VG10 :(
Probably good for me- 90% of my zoom shots never get used in post anyway, maybe I should stop shooting them.

You can't make a long zoom lens using plastic parts! The friction is just too high. Sony should have done a 6X lens.


What I find sad is Sony using plastic in a lens with a current retail price of $800 USD.
How far we have fallen.

Quick question: Does the camera shoot interlaced or is it really progessive packaged into an interlaced stream?

In my lifetime of about 20 years in shooting video , I've never been able to manually zoom a video lens, large and small formats, without jiggling the handheld camera and effectively ruining the shot. On a high-end video zoom lens with some costly proper manual focus/zooming aids and supports, this may have been possible. It is just plain bad ergonomics shooting handheld video with a camera having a lens racking 6 inches in and out when zooming and a lens that requires the shooter to grab and manually rotate the zoom ring in a still photography fashion! Not a single cheapo handycam camera I have is burdened that much with such design compromises.

I think the best I could do is forget about zooming the VG10 when recording.

What I find sad is Sony using plastic in a lens with a current retail price of $800 USD.
How far we have fallen.

Quick question: Does the camera shoot interlaced or is it really progessive packaged into an interlaced stream?

I just received the VG10 today & have spent about 2 hours exploring it.
I am not as distressed by the 18-200mm E lens as Steve is. I'm comparing it to my Nikon 35mm SLR 18-200mm lens, which also costs about $850, and is also around f 3.5-6.8. The zoom features on the two lenses seem very similar: a little more than a quarter turn to go from 18mm to 200mm, both lenses telescope about 3" at full zoom, both zoom rings require significant (and similar) torque to operate. The focus ring is smooth and easy to operate while recording. I'm wondering if we're not just seeing some sort of industry standard for 18-200mm lenses of this size, rather than any shortfall in Sony's design & execution.

I'm fairly impressed with the fit and finish of both the VG10 and the lens. It does have a finished, professional look and feel to me. It certainly doesn't look cheap.

The camera shoots 30p, recorded as 60i (each frame divided into 2 "fields")
On playback, there is no question that it has the cadence of 30p & requires caution when panning, etc.

The "button and menu" system require a little getting used to, but are servicable. The fact that you can go to Shooting Mode (P,S,A,M), WB, Exp Comp, MF, and Gain with dedicated buttons is quite good on such a small cam. I haven't found a convienient way to lock exposure without going to full manual- that's a bummer for panning shots.

Autofocus seems competant and quick enough. Another nice feature: If you press the "photo" button while in AF, the camera will refocus and show which AF sensors are being used. You can instantly see if the cam is looking at your talking head in the foreground, or focusing on the distant background, providing the clue that you are O.K., or need to go to MF to get what is needed.

My overall impression is that this is a lot of camera in a surprisingly small package, at an excellent price point. Very innovative, and generally user friendly.
Now, let's see what kind of pictures it makes :)

" I haven't found a convienient way to lock exposure without going to full manual- that's a bummer for panning shots."

Good catch!

It's not just pans. I was shooting passing cars. When a white car went by it was clear AP mode could not react fast enough so the car was over-exposed.

The same fluctuations will occur in SP mode.

In theory, simply switching to M mode should lock the current settings. It does, but the EC changes by itself to -2.0 with a tiny mm indicator. This seems like a bug because why should EC be altered? What is mm???

My tests show if you set your lightmeter to 150ISO (at 0dB gain), the shutter and aperture are correct.

PS: My 18-200 expands by 6-inches! :)

PS: My 18-200 expands by 6-inches! :)
Steve
I'm trying to figure that out. I think we've got a semantic thing going on...
The 18-200mm E lens measures about 4" total length at full wide, and about 7" at full zoom.
So, I'm saying that going to full zoom "extends" the lens by 3"
Surely your lens is the same???

In theory, simply switching to M mode should lock the current settings. It does, but the EC changes by itself to -2.0 with a tiny mm indicator. This seems like a bug because why should EC be altered? What is mm???
Manual Mode will lock your settings, including gain.
The little mm -2.0 that keeps changing and adjusting as you pan the camera around is simply an indicator of how far (how many f stops) you are from "ideal" exposure. The settings are actually locked down and do not change.
Lets say you are 1/60 shutter, f 5.6, 0 gain. If the exposure is perfect, then mm (manual mode??; manual "meter"??) will show +/-0. If you then pan to a darker area, mm indicator may read -1.7 (etc.). If you roll the center wheel the correct direction, it will open your f stop and the mm will head towards 0. So, now it's set for maybe 1/60, f 4.0, gain 0, and mm shows +/-0.
Anyway, you get the idea.
It's interesting that Manual Mode is a little bit shutter priority. When you switch to MM, you have the opportunity to set shutter first, and it stays the same thereafter. Then you use the mm indicater and the center wheel to refine the exposure by adjusting f-stop. Then, all exposure parameters remain locked down until you change them. But the mm indicator will continue to tell you how far off the money you are when the light changes.
Very clever!!!

If you have set Shutter using S mode, (AE sets Aperture), press DIAL, select M, press DOWN, and dial to 0.0. You are adjusting Aperture.


If you have set Aperture using A mode, (AE sets Shutter), press DIAL, select M, and dial to 0.0. You are adjusting Shutter.


In both cases the AE is locked, but you have full exposure control.

The MM shows the exposure error and can be ignored.

Can owners please share some pics??

Now that we've torn the camera apart from one end to another, is anyone who's actually got one willing to step back and give us the big picture again?
Is the VG10 a "keeper" or is it an "interim" camera? Should we wait for NAB or does this camera have the longevity to keep us happy and productive for the next 5 years? Are there too many aspects of this camera that would cause us to tear our hair out or is it overall as good as it gets for that price point?

I just don't like being served "experimental" models that are meant to test the marketplace and I don't feel like being a guinea pig in the world of video. The cameras I buy I end up using for many many years. Is the VG10 a keeper?

Is the VG10 a "keeper" or is it an "interim" camera? Should we wait for NAB or does this camera have the longevity to keep us happy and productive for the next 5 years? Are there too many aspects of this camera that would cause us to tear our hair out or is it overall as good as it gets for that price point?
I've had the camera for only a week, but my impression is that this is just the beginning.
If it is successful in the marketplace, I would expect to see important improvements as they release new models over the next couple of years.
Some observations:
1) In general the image quality is excellent
2) Moire is a serious problem with this camera. Sony will need to consider possibly making this a dedicated video only camera with filters on the sensor to eliminate moire. An Exmor R sensor upgrade might be in the cards as well.
3) It certainly delivers shallow DOF, but proper manual focusing is difficult. Adding focusing aids would help a lot.
4) More, better, faster E lenses will be important, but that's another issue & apparently there are already plans for that in 2011, 2012.
5) Active OIS is not nearly as good as in the little CX550. I'm finding it difficult to get stable hand held shots. Maybe that is an engineering problem related to the large size of the chip & can't be easily solved, but it is a big disappointment.
6) The audio is quite good for an on camera mic. No problems there.
7) There are some nusiance issues with the menu/button operations that will surely change with time.
8) ND filters are a must for proper control of shutter, iris, etc. I'm using the VariND for daylight shooting and am very pleased with that solution. There is probably no way they can add internal ND 1 and 2 as we are used to on larger cams, because of the huge chip size.
9) IMO the form factor, size, price point, etc. are all winners.
I am enjoying the camera. It is certainly very functional, a great concept, and produces beautiful images. I'm still figuring out exactly when I would use the VG10 rather than my other cams. But, I would not at all be surprised to find myself trading my VG10 body in for the VG12, or whatever, in a year or so.
I think we are far from the endpoint with this camera, and I think we will see the line expand to larger, more expensive pro featured versions in the next 12 months or so.
Bottom line, IMO if you are looking for something to use for 5 years, you might want to wait for the next version of the VG :)

I appreciate your honest assessment. Thanks!

Bob's is right on. I agree with everything he said -- especially that Sony MAY have shot themselves in the foot by including a still camera function that prevents the use of a LPOF

I say MAY because the still camera uses a mechanical shutter that slides into place. It's possible that as it slides in, a LPOF slides out. Why the artifacts then? Because when shooting video, 9MP are used which is reduced to 2MP. IF the anti-aliasing is set for the 9MP -- to provide better rez. specs. -- there will be aliasing. Sony has a long history of getting great numbers at the expense of aliasing. Is there such a thing as screw-in anti-alias filter?

Today I was shooting a bee and ants on a flower and used the long lens. Will post pix. Great shots but I couldn't wait to get back to the shorter lens with its silky rings. I would use the long ONLY as a Zoom-Tele: 100mm to 200mm. Wish I had brought my 500mm along.

Using Sony's 50 (90) f1.8 was mind blowing. Not only the VERY shallow DOF, but there is a wonderful metalilc sound as one turns the focus ring.

PS: I would not count on a rapid move to a "better" unit. Sony kept its HC1 for years. I would look for something from Canon.

Is there such a thing as screw-in anti-alias filter?

Check it out- an anti-moire screw-on filter:
Nex-VG10 moire reduction and 50/1.4 ND tests - Sony NEX-VG10 User Group on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/groups/nexvg10/videos/15366115)
I haven't tried it, but the video looks promising

If Sony considers this a "consumer" camera, it could see a refresh fairly quickly, as soon as a year, IIRC the HC1 only had a 1-2 year model life (I think it remained in the line with the HC3?). Of course the A1U "pro" version is only now fading out...

Sony progresses pretty quickly on the "consumer" side of the equation, like the Exmor R that went from lab/press release to full retail availability in the XR series in just about a year... replacing the SR's which had a one model year "run". Honestly they hit the mark with the XR/CX550, not sure where they can or will go from these cameras... so they are probbly looking for new new directions.

The one challenge I see with the VG10 (admittedly without having actual "hands on" one) is that it's an odd duck - it's not "pro" enough (no XLRs, frame rates, zebras, peaking, etc, etc.), and yet I suspect the average consumer will either return this within a week, or just simply pack it away in frustration. A pro will see the stuff that's missing, and a consumer will just realize what's not there (in "user friendly, point and shoot" operation)...


Sony definitely realizes there's a market for "large sensor" cameras with video, look at the number of completely "unique" concept cameras that have hit this year - the NEX mirrorless still cams (which have been a HUGE hit). the VG10 (it's own "animal"), and the recent unveiling of the SLT, as opposed to SLR, Alphas with video (the A55 looks to be a HUGE seller, judging from advance interest/demand - I may pull the trigger on one myself).

Sony also appears to be watching very carefully what "sticks", having already made alterations to the release dates of the comparable SLR models to the a33/a55, and indicated the replacement for their long overdue a700 may well be an SLT.

I have no doubt they sense a sea change, but aren't sure where the tide is flowing!

About the only things I think we can safely say is that Sony decided to join the interchangeable lens/large sensor party, in a big way.

As for ANY camera being a 5 year proposition with the current speed of technolgy shifts... well, a camera may remain viable and relatively effective for that lenght of time, but...

I suspect 3D is coming faster and bigger than most of us (myself included) are anticipating. It's already a certainty that Sony will be putting a good amount of resources in that direction.

Just what I've observed with how the Sony corporation does their thing...

I think Dave's observations are very perceptive.
I too have wondered where Sony will go with the CX550 line- it is such a phenomonal little masterpiece, they've hardly left any room for improvement.
So, maybe they'll let it sit for a while and concentrate on the VG line, where there is lots of room for improvement. I do think the VG can make it as a consumer cam if they start dialing in the upgrades that worked so well with the CX550. Even in its present state, I can run it full auto and get striking images.
Here's an interesting short- shot by an experienced videographer- but deliberately shot "tourist style" just to see what he could get letting the cam call all the shots:

LA County Fair random shots-NEX10 on Vimeo

I've shot with it just enough now that I'm beginning to see that the DOF even at mid iris (f-5/6), focused on a foreground subject, really contributes more value to the image than I had expected. I can get a bit of this with the EX1, but it is not as striking.
It's going to take me a while to really explore this new toy, but I definitely think there's something very, very interesting going on here. If Sony can get this puppy up to the level of the CX550 over the next couple of years, it could be a real home run across a very broad range of shooters. From grandma to aspiring film makers.
Well, maybe not grandma, but at least uncle Ted...

Pretty good observations Dave.

Unfortunately for Sony, Panasonic hasn't been standing still either, and judging by the phenomenal interest in the AF100, I think Sony has REALLY missed the boat on this one.

Only time will tell, but by the end of the year, I think Sony will definitely be on the back foot for quite a while.

Cheers,

Vaughan

Only time will tell, but by the end of the year, I think Sony will definitely be on the back foot for quite a while.

You could be right, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
I'm thinking that Sony has just put their toe in the water with the VG10, while Panasonic has jumped all the way into the pool. The AF 100 may be absolutely brilliant, or may have significant shortcomings. We will see. Either way, Panasonic is married to it now.
Sony Pro division would have to be crazy to not have an NX sized, APS chip, EX featured cam in the skunkworks as we speak. If they pull that out of the hat in 2011, at a $6-$7K price point, they will be in the game indeed.
...and still be in position to spread the APS KoolAid to the masses with the VG line. I don't know the numbers, but surely that's where the real money is :)
Exciting times...

What I find sad is Sony using plastic in a lens with a current retail price of $800 USD.How far we have fallen.

You shouldn't find it sad in the slightest, as all the manufacturers have used high pressure injection moulded plastic aspherical elements in their zoom lenses for very many years. If they used glass you wouldn't be able to afford the lens as each element would have to be ground individually and they'd soon be out of business.

Also remember that hundreds of thousands of people walk around all day long looking through hugely complex aspherical plastic elements in their glasses, with no complaints.

Or do I read you wrong Bill? When you say 'Sony using plastic in a lens' might you be referring to the lens barrel construction?

tom.

"You shouldn't find it sad in the slightest, as all the manufacturers have used high pressure injection moulded plastic aspherical elements in their zoom lenses for very many years. If they used glass you wouldn't be able to afford the lens as each element would have to be ground individually and they'd soon be out of business."

It's not the lenses being plastic that is the issue. It's the mechanism being made of plastic because the friction is so great.

Some CUs at 200mm.

You shouldn't find it sad in the slightest, as all the manufacturers have used high pressure injection moulded plastic aspherical elements in their zoom lenses for very many years. If they used glass you wouldn't be able to afford the lens as each element would have to be ground individually and they'd soon be out of business.


I'm actually dating myself, Tom. In my mind, my first "real" camera was a 1977 Pentax KM SLR with ~50mm f1.8 lens. There wasn't much plastic in it and the out the door price was $150. I remember that last part well because as a graduating high school senior, that's all I had. And I think we all know as the value of the dollar keeps falling, manufacturers keep finding ways to pull out cost. The use of plastic is one of those ways. When I say "How far we have fallen" I'm actually referring mostly to the incredibly shrinking dollar.

I do understand how modern lenses are built. I personally don't like plastic in the barrel construction and mount to the camera.


Also remember that hundreds of thousands of people walk around all day long looking through hugely complex aspherical plastic elements in their glasses, with no complaints.


I'm one of them. If it's farther than about 15 inches away, I have to wear glasses to see it clearly...even the computer screen as I'm typing this. When I finally made the switch from glass lenses to plastic, my glasses lost a massive amount of weight.

Materials science has come quite a way (one of the reasons I suspect Sony is trying the translucent "T" pellicle mirror in the SLT's, although they still make it sound like it can't be touched by anything ever... which scares me), and plastic is pretty common in about everything...

BUT, boy oh boy is there a difference between my older metal and glass Minolta A mount lenses and the new Sony plastic fantastic ones... yes they have heft, but they also move quieter and smoother, looking forward to putting a couple on an a55, even though they are relatively cheap "slow" lenses!

Frankly Sony could right now release a "VG11", with the sensor from the a55/a580 (I suspect they are already going to have a sensor shortage!). From the things I've read, the higher 16MPixel sensor also has a bit more light sensitivity over the 14.2, and it'd be almost "plug and play".

Anything that the "auto" functions "touch" can probably be mapped relatively easily to a button/wheel/touchscreen (yeah, I'd like to see a touchscreen in the VG... love it for certain things in the "handycams"). It's a matter of firmware being allowed to "touch" the same internal hooks so the user can make the adjustments manually. Anyone remember the HC9, which added peaking and a few other things to the HC7? I'd bet those functions were "in" the DSP chips all along, waiting to be unlocked... The CX550 added 24Mbps and more manual control access... but it's pretty much the same sensor block and guts as the CX500 (and to a major extent the XR500). Odds are good it was there all along...

MANY of the feature set decisions are made on what Sony believes the market will demand/accept, but they are already showing remarkable responsiveness, with a pending update that has been hailed as completely revitalizing the NEX3/5 user interface (which was roundly criticized!), and a VG10 update supposedly around the corner. I suspect many of the capabilities are already engineered in, it's a matter of figuring out what, and how the user wants to use it, in these "new" ergonomic designs!


Sony will sell a boatload of VG10's on sex appeal alone, but I suspect the secondary market of slightly used ones may be busy... I just don't see the average user "getting" the camera after getting (buying) it. I'll be watching...

Meanwhile I've got to sell a couple older cameras, but an a55 will be the the direction I go... it's got heat issues (internal to the body Super OIS rather than OIS in the lens of the VG10), meaning short clips, and I'm a bit leery of the new pellicle "no touchy" mirror (hey, things get touched!!), but For $750, $850 with kit lens, and I've got some decent Alpha glass, it should get me the shallow DoF aesthetic.

I think in the end it's that aesthetic ("value" as Robert noted) that these cameras bring to the table. People "expect" the cinematic style, with the shallow rack focus, and overall look (heck, Sony is even putting a faux DoF in their P&S line, and it actually does work OK to "fake" the SLR DoF). The only question really is whether they can cram all the expertise of a skilled camera operator into the controller chips that "help" the camera decide which object to track focus/exposure on - the XR/CX550 shows that is possible, and it's available RIGHT NOW in $300-400 point and shoots... Sony needs to put the accessability to the manual features into the higher end cams so the "pro" will accept them though...

... Anyone remember the HC9, which added peaking and a few other things to the HC7?...


Uhhh...that's my camera, Dave. Memory has nothing to do with it. I thought it was a far better value than the HDR-HD1000. I could think of other things to spend the difference on :-)
When I buy a new camera, it tends to be a huge jump in feature set. The NEX-VG10 qualifies.


... and a VG10 update supposedly around the corner....


I know, I've been watching the updates roll out for the NEX-5 and NEX-3 on SonyStyle, you know an update for the NEX-VG10 has got to be on its way. Leaving out RAW for stills, among other things, is just a sin. For me, the gravitational pull of this camera is amazing...


...I just don't see the average user "getting" the camera after getting (buying) it. I'll be watching...


You and me both will be watching. The average user wants brain-dead simplicity. Imagine their shock that consistently getting good DOF shots REQUIRES focus & aperture skills.

"BUT, boy oh boy is there a difference between my older metal and glass Minolta A mount lenses and the new Sony plastic fantastic ones... yes they have heft, but they also move quieter and smoother ..."

I think one of the reasons, beyond the fact I'm no longer working all around the world, that I no longer enjoy shooting is there is NO tactile feeling to today's "cameras." When you combine the move to plastic with the fact the kids who design "camera" products for the "electronics" companies have never used a Euro built camera -- you have an image capture "device" but not a camera.

I sold my Minolta Maxxon (sp) immediately because I hated the menu-based operation.

For many years JVC, unlike Sony and Pana, built consumer video cameras that were just like Super8 cameras. Now they have joined the gadget makers.

The question is not will Sony make newer VG10's, but if you go to their Japanese site and read interviews with the NEX-series designers, it seems they are very dedicated to creating a new "non-camera" device for consumers. It is a STYLE driven design. As I said before, it is an iPod concept. Create a NEW market.

And, it is working big for Sony. The VG10 is designed not to compete with other Sony camcorders or DSLRs. It is CONCEPT driven. Meaning, marketing first created the marketing buzz-words (BIG chip, shallow DOF, great sound, really sexy look) which is THE goal of the NEX=series and has engineering deign it.

We have to find a way to use what we have been given. Just like we learn to use an iPad.

PS: you should read HOW the new Sony tag-line was created. These folks are stylists.

The VG 10 firmware update is supposed to be in November, but I have seen nothing about what features it will have, what problems it will correct.
Has anyone heard any rumbles about it??

The firmware update will add support for Autofocus with A Series lenses. Haven't seen anything else about what's in there for the NEX-VG10. This article talks about what's in the NEX-5/3 software

Sony NEX Firmware Update (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sony_nex_firmware_update.shtml)

I hear you, Steve, regarding the loss of enjoyment in shooting. I don't know if it's my age (57) or the 2 herniated discs in my lower back (I started shooting back in '79 with the 30-pound TK-76) or something else. But in the last 5 years my only projects of any substance have been a solitary backpacking video I've been shooting with the Sony HC-3 (which tells you when I started the project).

I so want to have a camcorder that gives me the HD, the large sensor, the nice audio, the LACK of video artifacts (I'm so tired of the video look) and is affordable. I'd then like to live with this camera for a number of years and get to know it inside and out. The same way a violinist buys a Stradivarius and uses it as his lifelong instrument without fear of it becoming "obsolete." Maybe we're still far away from such a camera. Maybe not in my lifetime. But I was kind of hoping the VG10 might be 'the one.'

Lynne -

In all honesty the HC3 had one of the worst "HD" sensors I think I've seen over the years - it was an interim camera to bring the price of entry down into the consumer space vs. the HC1, and while it laid the foundation for the later HC's (and for that matter the current SR/XR/CX) with better sensors, it's very very outdated compared to cameras from the last couple years. I think that the HC3 sensor is probably your source of "artifacts", I remember seeing macroblocking from that camera... great size and weight, not so great image quality...

While the large sensor is a big draw for DoF, and the mic system of the VG10 looks pretty nice, you might at least take a look at the other camera several of us are using as a reference... the CX550V is a pretty solid all round performer, very very clean (low noise), good in bad light, big 3.5" LCD and a viewfinder, very stable when handheld, and yet still very light and compact (nice for those discs!). Honestly, aside from the oddball tripod mount location, I'd have to try really hard to come up with a list of "must have" improvements to the CX550... not a lot to quibble with, it's the culmination of several years of Sony design refinements.

Worst case the CX550V might be worth a look to keep your toes in the water with a camera that's "state of the art" as far as video cameras go. The "big sensor battle" really has JUST gone from a skirmish to all out war... and if you are after that "look", Sony pretty much doubled the choices in the last couple months, and added new and previously unseen designs (NEX, SLT). If you're into still photography, an SLT- a55 plus a CX550V would probably prove to be a more versatile combination, and just about as compact as the VG10, as long as you didn't go stir crazy on lenses!

As sexy as the VG10 is... I'm not giving up the CX550, and adding an a55 will get me most of the things I would use a VG10 for, along with a pretty amazing still camera at a bargain price point.

I so want to have a camcorder that gives me the HD, the large sensor, the nice audio, the LACK of video artifacts

Well, here's an update on the moire artifacting with the VG10, and some other recent observations as well.
I have shot a fair amount of test footage with the VG10, and was seeing an alarming amount of moire when viewing the transferred raw footage on my desktop monitor (1920x1080).
I wanted to see what was the best BR presentation the cam could provide, so I followed my usual HD workflow- converted the raw clips to Cineform HD.avi, put the Cineform clips on a timeline, trimmed and tossed a bit, rendered out to 25mbs h.264 Blu Ray, burned the BD, and just now watched it on a 50' Sony HDTV.
I saw two amazing things:
1) The footage really, really looked good. Images that looked a little flat, a little Ho Hum...yawn, on the raw AVCHD, looked absolutely lush. Beautiful color, excellent detail, good motion rendering, including pans. The DOF capability, even at f 6/7 range, provided a very subtle artistic effect to what were otherwise just "snapshot" type grabs. Autofocus seemed to be very effective at sticking to the foreground subject, and would gently refocus to the background on panning off of the subject.
I am finally impressed.
2) Most Amazing of All!!:
Maybe 80%-90% of the moire had mysteriously dissappeared. Minor moire was gone. Severe moire was still visable, but not very noticable except to critical observers like us. Footage that had looked unusable as raw AVCHD was now (with one single exception) usable in the BD version (by my standards anyway). This pretty well minimizes, for me anyway, what seemed to be a very severe flaw in the camera.

The other big issue to me was the effectiveness of the OIS for hand held shooting.
I did some shots with OIS completely off- wow, was that awful.
Now that I see the size of the problem, the OIS is looking much better to me. I'm just realizing that I have to use killer technique for holding the cam. No casual one hander's like with the CX550.
The more I get to know this camera, the more respect I'm developing for what it can do, and what I can use it for.

Thank you for that concise assessment of the VG10, Robert. It confirms what I was already finding out with my VG10. Awesome cam! I'm loving mostly everything about it.

Jr.

Anybody else notice the 'pattern' in Steve Mullen's images? Zoom in and they are very easy to see, and look like an interlace pattern, but I thought this camera was not capturing interlace. While the bokeh looks beautiful, the rest of the image does not.

How many times does it have to be said -- it shoots progressive.

However, to ALL software the files are seen as interlaced. So your ProRes, HDxND, AIC, HQ files will be interlaced. Once it goes into a progressive Sequence the original nature is ignored.

However, I loaded it into the QT Player so god knows what it does when it makes a BMP frame. :)

It could bob deinterlace which would double the thickness of every line.

This is why one should never look at postings to check "quality." And, why I don't post videos on the internet.

I've been looking at the video on a 47-inch Sony LCD and the video is spectacular!!! First consumer camcorder that resolves great detail on leaves at full wide -- very EX1 like. A long long way from the V1!

Rack focusing is very easy -- even hand-held which these shots were. The DOF can be made so thin one can move focus from the front to the back of a flower. The 1.8 is amazing, but you can hear the focus dial being turned. Consider that when using non E-mount lenses. ("The firmware update will add support for Autofocus with A Series lenses.")

PS: OT, before altering sharpness on any camera, be sure you have set your monitor correctly. Typically sharpness should be between 5 and 15. Also, remember, that Sony sets the Default sharpness to obtain the optimum frequency response with the least edge ringing. Altering to get a film look wipes out FOREVER fine detail. And, setting Contrast to +3 clips bright AND dark detail when shooting bright high contrast situations.

It's a little weird how Sony has done this.
The cam is shooting 30p, but dividing each frame into 2 fields and outputting the file as interlaced.
Seems like there is some confusion as how it should be presented to the NLE- as 30p, or 60i, how the NLE and various player software are interpreting the frame rate, etc.
It is possible to get artifacts if the settings or NLE/player interpretation are incorrect.
For my workflow, trial and error have shown me that my best result is for Cineform to interpret the footage as 30p for conversion to CFHD.avi 30p, then edited on a CFHD 30p sequence.
For the moment, I am steering clear of doing anything much with the raw AVCHD. I am not happy with how they look on playback, on my system anyway. Watching the Cineform and Blu Ray versions was a revelation for me.

Sony has been using this method -- PsF -- since the days of CineAlta where 24p was placed in a 48i container -- which is 50i slowed down slightly.

The point is an interlace file can universally be used. It is INTERLACED video that has no time difference between fields. In the old world this could not cause problems.

Now it can if you don't treat it right.

Anything that needs to deinterlaced video will do so. However a good deinterlacer will notice there is no motion between fields and use Weave deinterlacing which combines both fields into one frame.

Software typically only uses the fastest method which is bob that cuts vertical rez. in half. As I said, who knows what the QT player uses?

With the exception of iMovie 09, NLEs these clips should pass through through either a 30p or 60i timeline. However, it's best to use a 30p Sequence.

With some NLEs you can batch change all clips to progressive. My iMakeFullHD software does this for a folder of iMovie 09 imported (AIC) clips.

PS: Attached are 2 pix of the long and short zooms fully extended. You can see how much rotating the zoom ring must force the long zoom to move in and out.

With the exception of iMovie 09, NLEs these clips should pass through through either a 30p or 60i timeline. However, it's best to use a 30p Sequence.

It does seem to be a bit tricky.
If I tell the Cineform software to identify the AVCHD footage as 60i, and put the resulting files on a 60i timeline, the images have artifacts which I associate with interlacing.
If I tell the software to identify the raw clips as 30p (not to "deinterlace" them, but simply to interpret the AVCHD as 30p), and put the resulting Cineform files on a 30p timeline, everything looks terrific.
I had expected this to not make a difference, but it seems to.
Go figure...

Which NLE are you using?

I'm as puzzled as you.

Finally worked-out a way to burn 1080 to a DVD-R as a AVCHD disc. My goal was to avoid the use of an intermediate codec as is needed on Macs. And, it plays on a Sony BD player.

WOW!

We are talking "pro" quality HD from a $2000 camcorder.

Nothing I've seen on the net prepared me for this.

PS: Begas Movie Studio can import ProRes 422 or DNxHD to which I add a 5.1 soundtrack and then make a BD. Because there is no way to monitor the mix -- I do the simple: stereo to L & R, narration to C, and stereo music to the rear. Crude, but fun.

Which NLE are you using?
WOW!
We are talking "pro" quality HD from a $2000 camcorder.
Nothing I've seen on the net prepared me for this.

I'm using CS5
VG 10 footage on BD...Priceless
Yeah, it knocked my socks off too.
I know it's an unpopular view, but I really think AVCHD sucks for anything beyond acquisition purposes.
I will continue to edit and do serious previewing in Cineform HD codec.
But I am finally well satisfied that the camera/lens can produce outstanding images.