Ok, so for the past few years we have used Pinnacle Studio Pro 12 & 14. Which works well for weddings and events. It has a ton of Professional features that work great for what we do.

Now that we're using the Canon 5D MKII I feel as if we should step up our editing software as well... Question, does the type of software dictate the quality of the video? (ie...resolution).

If it doesn't change it at all, we might as well stick with Pinnacle it works for us. However, I understand that Pinnacle is frowned upon the industry. We're just having a hard time finding a software to crossover to.

Thanks,
Ryan

Resolution is a fixed number. But that's like judging a car based on whether it will do 100mph. Doing it in a SmartCar, or doing it in a Porsche are two VERY different experiences.

With care, most software programs can retain the quality of footage through simple editing. It's when things begin to get a bit more advanced that professional editing software separates itself. If you aren't doing much, stay put for now.

If you decide to move up, I'd say right now Adobe CS5 has the best 5D2 workflow going. Though Avid's isn't too bad either.

First Question I alway ask someone here is do you intend to convert into an editable codec. This is almost mandatory to get a decent editing experience, because the nature of the H.264 file, and its processing demands. (Obviously, a high end machine may eliminate that need.) On the Apple side, you have to do that, as I understand it, and on the PC side there are various schemes available. I personally have been using Cineform and Vegas for years now, and love it. I had used Pinnacle and Premiere Pro 2.0 before, and after trying Vegas stayed with it. In Pinnacle, you will have been used to a lot of prepackaged transitions and such, and some limited controls, but Vegas and other NLEs provide you with so much more control.

I convert my 5D footage to Cineforms codec. Depending on what you get, Cineform adds about $125 to $ 500.00 to your initial investment. I haven't priced Vegas Pro lately, but you are probably talking SRP in the $ 600 range. Look for deals. I remember back in the days when I started using it, BH Photo had a deal on Vegas 7 disks, that was unbelievable, and that I from there added updates at update pricing versus new user pricing.

There is also a fairly new product out from DVFilm.com called EPIC that converts 5D files to a proxy codec for a real time editing experience. It cost about $45. You do all your editing using the proxy, then on final render, the real files are used to generate.

I recently used the Edius Neo Booster (something like that anyway) trial, which claims you can edit realtime with AVCHD. I was impressed with the program, and if I was starting out, and not already committed to another tract, I would have considered it. In terms of workflow, it is probably close to your Pinnacle program.

And always, there is Avids Media Composer and Adobes offerings out there, and a little higher price range.

Avid Media Composer 5

Avid | Avid Media Composer 5 Getting Started Training (http://www.avid.com/US/resources/media-composer-5-getting-started-training)

CineForm is a very high quality codec, but Premiere Pro CS5 also handles DSLR footage natively...and quite well.

(I think Vegas has been able to handle DSLR footage for a version of two has it not? It's been a bit since I've tried it I guess.)

So there are a couple options.

(I think Vegas has been able to handle DSLR footage for a version of two has it not? It's been a bit since I've tried it I guess.)


If by "handle" you mean place a clip on the timeline and play it back, then yes. If, on the other hand, you mean do an effective edit and finish, then I'd have to say no. At least not in the traditional sense.

If by "handle" you mean place a clip on the timeline and play it back, then yes. If, on the other hand, you mean do an effective edit and finish, then I'd have to say no. At least not in the traditional sense.

:-) Fair enough. I'll defer to those with a bit more experience with that platform...

I wouldn't touch any footage without Cineform being the first stage in my editing...

I wouldn't touch any footage without Cineform being the first stage in my editing...

Totally agree. I use Cineform with all my XH-A1 files which allows me to do complex work in After Effects (and soon with files from my new 5D MKII). The clarity and integrity of Cineform files is amazing through multiple edits. I HIGHLY recommend their software. Just bite the bullet and buy it - you won't be disappointed.

Final Cut Pro - out of the box - no extra software stages.

5dMk ii files are pulled directly off the cards (or via proxy) inside the Canon EOS utility app which transcodes to Pro Res 4:2:2 on the fly and into the FCP timeline ready to edit.

Couldn't be simpler.

Working on 2 million paid seats out there - Final Cut Pro is hands down the most used editing software system in the world right now.

So it's about as safe a bet as it comes - particularly if you're ever going to be looking to edit for someone elses business.

Your mileage may vary.

Canopus edius pro, they still offer a cheap crossgrade option for a few days I think, I can handle DSLR footage with colorcorrection, multiple layers in realtime on my pc which is 3 years old. I convert all footage to the canopus HQ codec first which is also included in the package. Exporting canopus hq avi files back out (to teh same avi codec) is also very fast, on my Q6600 a 1 hour and 15 min movie took 16 minutes to render out. You only need to consider that you get sufficient hardrive space.

I paid 190 euro for the version without 3rd party software and for that price you get a pro software that is very usable on older pc's, something you can't say about adobe.

Final Cut Pro is hands down the most used editing software system in the world right now. So it's about as safe a bet as it comes - particularly if you're ever going to be looking to edit for someone elses business.

What does this say? Does it make any difference what software is most used and is it not a safe bet to use adobe CS5 production package f.i.? or any other NLE? It all comes down to budget and what works for you.

If by "handle" you mean place a clip on the timeline and play it back, then yes. If, on the other hand, you mean do an effective edit and finish, then I'd have to say no. At least not in the traditional sense.It's not just CS5 but I know from experience that it's certainly possible to edit the native files in Final Cut Pro but it's really not ideal as it's not smooth scrubbing through the timeline so transcoding to ProRes is the best solution. You can even edit native files in iMove '09 quite well but it's simply not as smooth as if you edit the files after they have been transcoded to Apple Intermediate CODEC (AIC).

I have heard promises of native H.264 file editing with Avid MC5 & EDIUS 5 too but always just as with CS5, FCP & iMovie09 it appears that while it is possible it is by no means perfect & is always more desirable to transcode to a more suitable CODEC for editing. Perhaps in a few years time when processors are even faster than they are today it will truly be possible to edit the native files but until then we must all reconcile ourselves to the fact that whether it's Cineform or ProRes we really do need to transcode to an intermediate CODEC before editing.

Nigel,

While I agree, there are two instances where I find doing basic editing with these native codecs very valuable.

The first is in quick-turnaround work. This could be broadcast news with things coming in from the field. Or it could be wedding stuff with a Same Day Edit. In both cases, doing a traditional import, cut, export is REALLY tough.

The other is in the field. On set, there are times I'd really just like to drop footage into the editor, hit play, and watch it play. I am ok if it stutters a bit. That doesn't bother me. I am usually checking scopes, and other things to make sure we've got what we need.

But back in the long-form edit suite, you better believe I'll be transcoding to get best performance.

Will MC5 play 5D/7D files natively? Yep. I've done it. Is it idea? Not by a long shot.

What does this say? Does it make any difference what software is most used and is it not a safe bet to use adobe CS5 production package f.i.? or any other NLE? It all comes down to budget and what works for you.

What this says is that if you want to fill a job for someone else using THEIR equipment, it makes sense to understand that more editing is done on Apple/FCP than any other editing system in the world.

If you're only going to edit your work on your own system, this doesn't mean anything.

If you're going to advertise yourself as an "editor" who is as likely to find themselves on a set on the beach in Maui in front of a MacBook Pro as in a cubicle in Santa Monica in front of an Avid suite - it makes sense to understand how widespread the use of particular tools are out there.

Nothing more than that.

...more editing is done on Apple/FCP than any other editing system in the world.

Given the cost of a machine to do editing, and the cost of FCP, I would bet REAL money this is not the case. A bit of research into those statistics has sussed out some very interesting metrics, but I won't argue that FCP remains a very popular editing system. And knowing how to use it, Avid, and Premiere will go a long way toward making one a marketable entity in the editing field.

...Working on 2 million paid seats out there - Final Cut Pro is hands down the most used editing software system in the world right now.
.

While I'd agree that FCP has a huge marketshare, the videoguys blog from October, 2009 notes:

"Apple claims 1.3 million licensed Final Cut users, however, this figure includes all Final Cut Pro, Final Cut Express and Final Cut Studio licenses since day one, excluding upgrades."

link: Videoguys Blog - Final Cut vs. Avid Redux (http://www.videoguys.com/blog/PL/0x8df3185da565164ba8d1e63434a4434e.aspx)

If Apple's "claim" is 1.3M including all those versions and caveats, I'd say that 2 million "paid" seats is likely an over-estimate.


Since this isn't an NLE religion discussion (though I agree that whether or not to standardize your gear to the industry is a worthwhile consideration), these types of statements are probably unnecessary as they tend to be what takes these discussions way off topic.

I would say that I'm more interested in opinions on Edius and Vegas and other NLE systems from those who actually work with them, as they know what's possible and what's not through actual experience.

Now, the best editor choice for me. It can edit 5D files, or everything Quicktime read, WITHOUT CONVERSION (Direct link the files or folder) with AMA system. Without conversion = without lost of quality and you don't have to wait to edit...

I have (with Sony EX1 and 3) edited lot of documentaries and TV programs with this AMA system, that works perfectly if your folders organization is simple and clear.

With the #5, Avid is now universal.

William.

Thanks for the clarification Bill but I think it doesn't help the topic starter much, his question was if the type of software dictate the quality of the video when handling dslr footage.
if he refers to output quality I think that his 100 dollar pinnacle software can output in practically the same quality as any NLE out there, if his pc is fast enough to handle 2 streams of mpeg4 and if studio 14 allow him to make and deliver his weddings/events without any headache and if that makes him happy then I don't see a reason to upgrade.
if his question would be what NLE will give him the best realtime performance with dslr footage when applying colorcorrection and effects, then studio 14 is not good enough anymore and you need an NLE that like adobe can utilize the hardware in a very good way without transcoding to achieve realtime performance or you need an NLE that uses intermediate codecs that take the compression out of mpeg4 like Canopus, fcp do or with almost any other NLE using cineforms codecs.

if he refers to output quality I think that his 100 dollar pinnacle software can output in practically the same quality as any NLE out there, if his pc is fast enough to handle 2 streams of mpeg4 and if studio 14 allow him to make and deliver his weddings/events without any headache and if that makes him happy then I don't see a reason to upgrade.
I agree that the Pinnacle software outputs video of just as good quality as any other NLE out there. 95% of what I do is cuts and dissolves, and I bet Pinnacle does cuts and dissolves just as easy (perhaps easier) than any other NLE on the market.

Furthermore I find that indy guys that use obscure editing software typically learned to shoot/edit using that software and have never used anything else. These are typically older guys and it is difficult/impossible for them to move over to another software, ESPECIALLY a jump like pinnacle (point -> click) to AVID or FCP (which are infinitely powerful and more complicated). Folks who learned on FCP / AVID / Newscutter can pick up Vegas or even Pinnacle in ten minutes and be proficient (although repeatedly hitting the wrong hotkeys!), but the guys who learned on Video Toaster and have been using it for ten years might try for a year to learn FCP and just never be as good.

In short, if you're using it now, it does what you want, you know how to use it, and you work for yourself... I can't think of a reason to upgrade.

My editing drug of choice?

Coffee. Lots and lots of coffee... (As to the NLE, Vegas and Cineform with a pinch of After Effects.)

Personally, I'm surprised that the word "grading" hasn't come up in the conversation. To me, that's what separates the tools from the toys.

As to one's choice of NLE, everything does cuts. And everything does HD these days. And maybe you can scrub h.264 on the latest CS5 machine which is nice for fast turnaround, but once you start doing grading and effects, you don't want your CPU bogged down with decoding. So get a good, fast, 10-bit 4:2:2 (or better) codec, whatever the brand. With Cineform available for about $100, it's a no brainer (unless you use ProRes.)

Then there's the platform, built-in effects, ease of use, and cost, but that gets into NLE religion and lore. If your NLE is comfortable to use and meets your needs here, be happy and use it.

Now, to grading. Step 1 is to decode the MOV files properly. Many NLEs use Quicktime to decode the 5D files and it screws up the gamma. What's worse is that by messing with the gamma in the 8-bit domain, it leaves gaps in the levels and will mash some of the color tones together.

Vegas uses Quicktime by default, and I would guess that most others do as well. Cineform fixes the problem. And it provides a 10-bit, 4:2:2 result. So if you use Vegas or any other NLE that uses Quicktime for decoding the MOV files, Cineform is pretty much a "must buy" item.

Stu Maschwitz recommends applying noise reduction as the first step in the grading chain - even if it's used at a super light setting. Why? Because it will create values that are "in between" the 8-bit values that you get out of the camera. If your project is in 4:4:4, it can also fill in those spatial areas with "in between" values. Overall, you can arrive at a silky smooth image that will avoid contours down the road. The Neat Video plugin is a good, inexpensive choice.

And here's where the right choice of NLE comes in... Does your NLE support more than 8-bit processing? Does it support better than 4:2:0? If not, you will almost always get contour lines in your final grade.

Vegas allows a 32-bit float processing mode. Stick with 8-bits for faster, creative editing, but render in 32-bit mode. With a 32-bit render, those 8-bit contour lines will likely not appear.

And, of course, you want good grading tools. Vegas' color correction isn't bad. You can add plugins, though not all plugin makers support Vegas. And there's always After Effects. Pretty much all the plugin makers support AE.

Don't ask me which NLEs support more than 8-bit processing. I have no idea. The market changes quickly. But I know that Vegas and AE do. And the results look silky smooth - even with an 8-bit h.264 DvSLR recording as the original source.

[QUOTE=Tim Kolb;1541581]While I'd agree that FCP has a huge marketshare, the videoguys blog from October, 2009 notes:

"Apple claims 1.3 million licensed Final Cut users, however, this figure includes all Final Cut Pro, Final Cut Express and Final Cut Studio licenses since day one, excluding upgrades."

link: Videoguys Blog - Final Cut vs. Avid Redux (http://www.videoguys.com/blog/PL/0x8df3185da565164ba8d1e63434a4434e.aspx)

If Apple's "claim" is 1.3M including all those versions and caveats, I'd say that 2 million "paid" seats is likely an over-estimate.

SNIP

I'd agree that it's not religion. Just market surveying - which most businesses have learned is a useful tool for determining which brands/tools are likely to stand the test of time.

As to the numbers above, "Final Cut Pro" and "Final Cut Studio" are the SAME product. FCP was sold as a standalone once upon a time. Today it's sold as part of a "Studio" package - but the software is ONE thing. As to Final Cut Express - I'm sure there are some folks out there using it happily. But I can't believe it's skewing the numbers very much since it's a home user stand-alone product that's never, for example, been BUNDLED with systems - the type of practice that tends to artificially enhance user numbers with some low priced editing software products.

The number of FCP seats I was quoting came from the last NAB in April 2010 where the "approaching 2 million paid seats" factoid was widely quoted.

The point is NOT to suggest that there aren't other perfectly excellent software packages out there that do what FCP does. It's simply to indicate that when you see ads for editors these days - you'll nearly exclusively see AVID and FCP mentioned. I have never seen an ad asking for a Premier, or Vegas specific editor - understanding that this IN NO WAY indicates the quality of the solution. Just the job market as it stands today.

CS5 is making a huge bid right now to change those statistics. It's recent refresh has put it's features ahead of FCP in many users minds. The market is wating for Apple to respond. FCP is clearly quite long in the tooth in terms of a major rev.

We've all likely seen the Steve Jobs quote about how Apple is firmly behind FCP and is working on some form of top secret "killer" upgrade. Smoke and mirrors? Or a glimpse into the future? Only time will tell.

But if you're going to tie your ability to earn a living over your lifetime to an industry as fickle as video production - it makes sense to seek out accurate info as to what tools are out there - which tend to be most popular - and how those choices might affect what you spend your time working on.

YMMV.

I'd agree that it's not religion. Just market surveying - which most businesses have learned is a useful tool for determining which brands/tools are likely to stand the test of time.

The number of FCP seats I was quoting came from the last NAB in April 2010 where the "approaching 2 million paid seats" factoid was widely quoted.

But if you're going to tie your ability to earn a living over your lifetime to an industry as fickle as video production - it makes sense to seek out accurate info as to what tools are out there - which tend to be most popular - and how those choices might affect what you spend your time working on.

YMMV.

I am glad we're successfully skirting the NLE religion wars here. Fact is, at this level of the game, if your $1k+ NLE isn't VERY good, you will soon be out of the business. These apps are ALL very good.


But here's what's troubling to me about the numbers. Especially in the context you are highlighting about making your living with an app.

Nearly 2 million paid seats. Think about that for a moment. It has been reported more than once that these figures are derived from the sales of Final Cut. Not just FCP or FCS. But ANY Final Cut. Let's put that aside for moment though at take the numbers on their face.

Two million. That's a STAGGERING number.

Detroit has a population of just over 900,000 residents
Dallas, 1.2 Million
Philly, 1.5 Million
Houston, 2.2 Million

You'll forgive me, but I find it nearly impossible to fathom that there are nearly as many FCP users are there are people in Dallas and Detroit combined.

When you look at Apple's numbers regarding how small a financial footprint Apple Pro Apps is, and then you work the math of 2 Million people using a $1k professional editing application... That's a 2 BILLION dollar userbase. Nevermind the $2500 computer underneath that application.

Let's back up even further. Let's assume that Apple is absolutely DESTROYING the PC in terms of market penetration. Maybe 80% of the market. Is that fair? And in that relatively slim 20%, there is room for Avid, Premiere Pro, Vegas, and Edius to all manage a healthy and brisk business. None of them seem to be faltering, and most have new products within the past 12 months.

How big must the market be then? Are we talking 5 Million seats combined? If we take the numbers at face value we would be talking 5-10 MILLION professional editing seats out there. Imagine it. The equivalent to the population of LA or NYC all with a professional editing application on their high end computer.

Now clearly, we are going to see 5-20 seat post houses and that will account for some. But how many 20 seat post houses are there in the world? 100? 1000? Even if there were a thousand of them, that would still be a tiny fraction of the estimated seats. We add in broadcast TV. Avid's pretty strong there still. So what are we talking, maybe 8-10k stations arround the world with a dozen licenses each? That's just a crazy guess. I really have no idea. I just can't for the life of me, wrap my head around the idea that there are nearly 2 million FCP editors in the world.

Final Cut was introduced in 1999. And I don't think it's a secret to anyone that they didn't garner much market penetration until version 2 was introduced 2 years later. So in that 9-11 years they managed to sell nearly 2 million copies. Avid started some 11 years sooner and basically had no real competition for a lot of that time. I wonder if Avid counted their seats from the dawn of their existence, how many seats they would have....

Anyway, Those are just my miscellaneous ramblings on this baffling number I keep hearing getting tossed around. I never do hear any breakdown of the number though. How many working pros that number encompasses. How many kids in the basement. How many of those seats are academic freebies or heavily discounted copies.

If we are going to use numbers to assess the working professional market, it would make sense to count the seats being used by working professional editors. At least to my mind, that's how it should be.

Nigel,

While I agree, there are two instances where I find doing basic editing with these native codecs very valuable.

The first is in quick-turnaround work. This could be broadcast news with things coming in from the field. Or it could be wedding stuff with a Same Day Edit. In both cases, doing a traditional import, cut, export is REALLY tough.We are really searching for an editor that would ease the pain of doing this sort of work which is why I have been considering CS5 & MC5 on Mac & even EDIUS V5.5 on Windows. I got the trial of CS5 but after I had waited for 1.9GB to download I discovered that what Adobe don't tell you about the trial is that it doesn't support editing Canon 5D Mk II H.264 MPEG4 files natively so it's impossible for me to evaluate whether it would suit our purposes. I don't know if there is a similar restriction with the trial of Avid MC5 but the evidently the minimum specifications for running MC5 are an Nvidia GeForce graphics card but our Mac Pros have ATI cards so I am not sure whether it is worth downloading the trial as without a $400 graphics card upgrade I cannot properly evaluate MC5.

We are really searching for an editor that would ease the pain of doing this sort of work which is why I have been considering CS5 & MC5 on Mac & even EDIUS V5.5 on Windows. I got the trial of CS5 but after I had waited for 1.9GB to download I discovered that what Adobe don't tell you about the trial is that it doesn't support editing Canon 5D Mk II H.264 MPEG4 files natively so it's impossible for me to evaluate whether it would suit our purposes. I don't know if there is a similar restriction with the trial of Avid MC5 but the evidently the minimum specifications for running MC5 are an Nvidia GeForce graphics card but our Mac Pros have ATI cards so I am not sure whether it is worth downloading the trial as without a $400 graphics card upgrade I cannot properly evaluate MC5.

MC5 trial is fully functional. As was MC4. I produced real work in both of them! The graphics card for Avid is a big deal because Avid uses the CUDA engine to accelerate it's work. The trial will still run, and you'll still be able to try out your 5D files, but you won't get the performance boost you would be, if you were using a CUDA card. And you may have some screen overlay issue. Honestly, that kind of thing should really be expected.

That said, I've tried working with 5D files via AMA in the Avid. It's not zippy on my 2 machines, but I with an i7 it should be smooth. I don't know what kind of machine you have. I don't know if Edius brings a better experience to the table or not. It says it accelerates AVCHD, but the 5D files are NOT AVCHD.

Honestly, nothing out there is really ready to do these 5D/7D files smoothly. If you can live with that, you should be in business. Like I said, I know it works in Avid MC5 because I've done it.

It says it accelerates AVCHD, but the 5D files are NOT AVCHD

I can edit my 550d footage natively without the image stuttering on a Q6600 pc, have only tried one stream so far but am not expecting it to handle 2 streams as I experienced stuttering of the 550d audio, don't know if that was soft- or hardware related. As all my other M2T files don't have that problem I"m guessing my Q6600 is running against it's limits when it comes to handling the 550d footage.

SNIP

Nearly 2 million paid seats. Think about that for a moment. It has been reported more than once that these figures are derived from the sales of Final Cut. Not just FCP or FCS. But ANY Final Cut. Let's put that aside for moment though at take the numbers on their face.

Two million. That's a STAGGERING number.

Detroit has a population of just over 900,000 residents
Dallas, 1.2 Million
Philly, 1.5 Million
Houston, 2.2 Million

SNIP

be.



Perrone,

It's only a "staggering" number if you limit your thinking to the US.

These are WORLDWIDE numbers.

FCP has been localized, just like the Mac OS, to work all over the world.

So the cat working at an FCP seat in Spain, or in Italy, or in the UK counts equally. As would someone working an AVID seat.

Also, just as food for thought, I don't know a single Advertising Agency I've been in in the last 5 years, nor a single Corporate art/marketing department that wasn't running Macs for their in-house graphics stuff. And I suspect that those machines are also nearly ALL configured with FCP for in-house client presentations and the like.

Add that to the worldwide thing and I don't think theres any real compelling reason to doubt Apple's statistics.

For what it's worth.

MC5 trial is fully functional. As was MC4. I produced real work in both of SNIP

Honestly, nothing out there is really ready to do these 5D/7D files smoothly. If you can live with that, you should be in business. Like I said, I know it works in Avid MC5 because I've done it.

Sorry, to take issue Perrone, but I'm here to tell you that while I agree nothing currently out there will edit NATIVE 5d H264 files smoothly, the automatic Pro Rez 422 downconvert now built directly into the Canon EOS Utility produces 1920 x 1080 Pro Rez 422 files that edit PERFECTLY SMOOTHLY on even a modestly configured machine like mine (Intel MacPro Dual Core 4 processor 266 Xenon) running a pretty stock ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT.

I've been doing 5d work for about a year now, and while it was a bit bumpy at the start - today it's nearly as smooth as editing DV material. (So long as you don't stack up half a dozen HD tracks and expect the computer to zip through them all!)

The biggest problem I currently face is that FCP still gets confused a bit if you switch back and forth between HD and SD projects too often.

Trashing prefs usually fixes things - but I think the current version of the program is happier if you pick a workflow - configure for that - and stick with it - rather than trying to re-clock everything to handle different frame rates and raster sizes every hour or so.

My experience, anyway.

YMMV.

Yea, I was thinking worldwide. That's still a LOT of seats man... 200k a year.

If that number is really accurate, and FCP/FCS alone accounts for $2Bln dollars in revenue for Apple, it's just astounding that they have coddled that market more than they have.

but I'm here to tell you that while I agree nothing currently out there will edit NATIVE 5d H264 files smoothly

If you would be doing a lot of CC and effects yes but for straight edits? Even my pc can handle one stream almost natively, the video looks realtime but you can hear by the audio that the pc has problems keeping up. On a modern I7 you could easily edit at least 2 streams of native dslr footage.

Sorry, to take issue Perrone, but I'm here to tell you that while I agree nothing currently out there will edit NATIVE 5d H264 files smoothly, the automatic Pro Rez 422 downconvert now built directly into the Canon EOS Utility produces 1920 x 1080 Pro Rez 422 files that edit PERFECTLY SMOOTHLY on even a modestly configured machine like mine

Well, then you're not editing 5D/7D files, you're editing prores. Just like on the Avid when I import to DNxHD. It's smooth as butter when I bring in 5D/7D files that way. Or in Edius when it brings in Canopus HQ. The files are no longer H.264, they are DCT compressed. Cineform works similarly.

I use my 5D mainly as C-cam on a steadycam, next to a Sony Z7 (HDV) and a Sony PDW-F350 (XDCAM HD). Final Cut Pro accepts all three formats happily in one timeline, with smooth editing and perfect final images as a result. It is by far the NLE of choice of all the editors I know. So I can highly recommend it.

As far as the $2500 hardware is concerned: the troublefree operation makes it worth more than that. No viruses, no trojans, no shutdowns, no 'device not found',...

Honestly, nothing out there is really ready to do these 5D/7D files smoothly. If you can live with that, you should be in business. Like I said, I know it works in Avid MC5 because I've done it.This is the conclusion that I am coming to despite the claims for CS5, MC5, EDIUS 5 etc

I think Ryan either got a little bewildered by all the replies or is no longer interested in editing!!

As far as the $2500 hardware is concerned: the troublefree operation makes it worth more than that. No viruses, no trojans, no shutdowns, no 'device not found',...

I have a 1000dollar "pc" hardware that has had no viruses, trojans, shutdowns or "no device found" problems either and has been trouble free since I got it and I can also drop whatever format in my NLE with smooth editing and perfect output. You don't need a Mac to get this all to you know.

My dear countryfellow Noa, Don't think that I have no experience with PC's. I do. I have had an advertising agency for years. We had Macs in the graphic and creative departments and PC's in the accounting and commercial departments. I can assure you that we had about 10 times more trouble with the PC's than with the Macs, in every possible aspect.

So, why then was I so stupid to begin editing 5 years ago with a PC (Acer, top of the line with extra memory and disk space) and Pinnacle and later Adobe Première Pro? For the price: the Acer cost half the money of a Mac Pro. But... it cost me a few years of my life in aggravation, stress and pure anger. So now I have 4 Macs running with FCP and it's heaven, compared to the rubbish I had before. But that's just my experience, for what it's worth...


So if anyone asks me what edting software I would recommend, the choice narrows down to anything that will run smoothly on a Mac.

Strange thing is that I always had DELL's and while I hear people complaining about them they never let me down, I even still have a 2ghz and a 3ghz dell pc here that still work like they should and they don't give me weird error messages either.
A good configured pc with only the software on it that's needed is just as stable as a Mac, most of the problems appear because of bad configurations, bad written software and software like virusscanner, firewall, messenger....
On a production pc you just need to make clear choices what you want to do with it and only use it for that purpose and choose good quality parts and good written software, this always works.

I have premiere pro cs3 and Edius pro on my machine and Edius is rock solid, premiere not. It's just not designed to handle a lot of native M2T files without becoming unstable but that has nothing to do with the platform it's on, it's just cs3. It does works without a problem if I first combine files in one large file (I work with a hvr-dr60)
On the other hand I can trow whatever I want at Edius and it will handle it, the speed difference from teh moment you start capturing your files until you can start editing a very big. This again shows how important it is to choose the right tool if you want to have a stable pc.

... Acer ... Pinnacle ... Adobe Première Pro ...I'm not surprised you had such a bad experience on the PC - in the past, those three names were exactly what I would have recommended you avoid. And you ended up putting them all together on one desktop! C'est la vie.

Let me first point out - the OP stated for the 5D so all those chiming in who don't even own the beast please qualify your remarks. These "full HD" .MOVs need to be dealt with in a consistent repeatable way for best output. I've rendered to 720 Mp4s just fine and looks great on computer but rendering to DVD (SD) is a challenge I've only conquered once with so so results. I wonder if it can be done.

I'm editing on a PC using Cineform HDLink conversions to AVI, then edit and render in Vegas Movie Studio HD 10, and then burn to DVD using DVD Architect 5 - I did a simple test short MOV last night pretty much just running through the workflow to a finished DVD which I then slapped into my DVD player
to watch on my older 30" HD tv - the sound was stuttering worse than a disco dj overdosing on crack! The video barely played with huge pixelation blocks etc. in a word - total trash!!

So I suggest DV Invo set up sub threads such as
5D Mk2 - PC - Cineform - Sony Vegas Studio 10 - DVD Archictect
just to discuss and share tried and true workflows.

5D Mk2 - PC - Cineform - Sony Vegas Studio 10 workd well for files played on computer but that's about it.

Bout ready to get a MAC and FC just for my video!! Especially if that's what it takes to produce a decent DVD.

Or should I just burn to BluRay only - greater success with this from this combination on the PC??

the OP stated for the 5D so all those chiming in who don't even own the beast please qualify your remarks.

Don't know for sure but does a 7d and 550d not produce the same type files with the same bitate then a 5D?

Bout ready to get a MAC and FC just for my video!! Especially if that's what it takes to produce a decent DVD.

I just got my 550d and barely got to testing it but a few days ago I imported the raw mpeg4 files into edius pro (those file were 1920x1080 with avg bitrate of 40/45mbs, trancoded to canopus hq, export as canopus hq avi file, import into tmpgenc 4.0 express and transcoded to dvd compliant file and then used encore cs3 to make my dvd. Nothing wrong with it, sound was good, image was good. And it was done on a 3 year old pc.

Don't know for sure but does a 7d and 550d not produce the same type files with the same bitate then a 5D?

Sort of. The 7D/550D produce a similar file with a just slightly higher bit rate than the 5D.

Let me first point out - the OP stated for the 5D so all those chiming in who don't even own the beast please qualify your remarks. These "full HD" .MOVs need to be dealt with in a consistent repeatable way for best output. I've rendered to 720 Mp4s just fine and looks great on computer but rendering to DVD (SD) is a challenge I've only conquered once with so so results. I wonder if it can be done.


Qualify my remarks? The file structure of the 5D and 7D is quite similar with the 7D/550D have a slightly higher bit rate. They are wrapped in the same container, and for the purposes of editing, are essentially indistinguishable.

You wonder if rendering these files to a DVD can be done? Of course. There is nothing special about getting these files to DVD that doesn't exist in any professional workflow going from HD to SD.



I'm editing on a PC using Cineform HDLink conversions to AVI, then edit and render in Vegas Movie Studio HD 10, and then burn to DVD using DVD Architect 5 - I did a simple test short MOV last night pretty much just running through the workflow to a finished DVD which I then slapped into my DVD player
to watch on my older 30" HD tv - the sound was stuttering worse than a disco dj overdosing on crack! The video barely played with huge pixelation blocks etc. in a word - total trash!!


So you are using a decidedly consumer NLE to try and accomplish was is probably a pretty pro level task. Should still work assuming you are doing things correctly. If your DVD came out poorly, it had nothing to do with what came out of the camera. It's been converted twice by that point (once in the transcode to Cineform, and again in the transcode to Mpeg2 to make your DVD). So don't fault the camera for that, it's the workflow.



So I suggest DV Invo set up sub threads such as
5D Mk2 - PC - Cineform - Sony Vegas Studio 10 - DVD Archictect
just to discuss and share tried and true workflows.


Why? We've got a dozen threads on how to do HD -> SD already. You have an error in your workflow somewhere (likely in the Mpeg2 encode step), but that should be easily solved. Work with someone here on how to encode for DVD and that should take care of the problem.


5D Mk2 - PC - Cineform - Sony Vegas Studio 10 workd well for files played on computer but that's about it.


Then you likely need to increase your understanding of how to encode for final delivery.



Bout ready to get a MAC and FC just for my video!! Especially if that's what it takes to produce a decent DVD.


That won't solve your problem. In fact, it's often MORE difficult to do this on a Mac, as there are more pieces involved. Ask in the Final Cut Pro section about using Compressor and the completely un-obvious need for frame controls.



Or should I just burn to BluRay only - greater success with this from this combination on the PC??

Up to you. I've done both with complete success on numerous occasions.

Perrone,

I was in that HD-SD discussion for a while and it was all over the map. I know my video is fine and that the workflow is the problem. I just have not found a way to consistently produce great results. I know you use a lot of third party open source apps which is fine but i respectfully don't know wtf i'm doing when I get into these apps. They have more choices than I can intelligently set.

You're right the HD-SD discussion is all over here with some such as yourself reporting glowing success and others like myself never quite getting there. Is there not a cookbook path somewhere to take a full HD progressive MOV to a DVD in SD with great picture and sound. I mean this isn't creative- it's technical and should be a repeatable path.

Would you say the burn to BluRay simplifies this for the full HD MOV rendering to disc?

I'm not surprised you had such a bad experience on the PC - in the past, those three names were exactly what I would have recommended you avoid. And you ended up putting them all together on one desktop! C'est la vie.

If only someone would have told me that at the time! Of course, I wasn't checking this marvelous forum back then... My fault.

Harry,

There are a couple of problems in the mix here.

FIrst, is the fact that you, and most others are not able to work directly with the codec that comes out of the camera. This necessitates doing a transcode. You've chosen Cineform which is an excellent codec, but you need to ensure that you are getting good quality at that step. I saw your post about that transcode producing interlaced footage where it should not. So right off the bat, you've got an error in the workflow that will undoubtedly reduce quality.

Second is the issue that we somehow have to get from 1920x1080 (or 1280x720) to 720x480 for NTSC purposes. When Vegas was my NLE, I chose to use 3rd party applications for this work because the rescaling in Vegas and most other NLEs is decidedly poor. Now that I use Avid, this is no longer necessary.

Third is the actual compression from Cineform AVI to Mpeg2. In Vegas Pro, you have the option of using the MainConcept Mpeg2 encoder. I don't know if this is available to you in VMS or not. If not, I suspect it does not have a great Mpeg2 encoder so you'll lose even more quality there. And how are you exporting your audio? DVD only supports PCM or AAC. What audio are you taking into DVDA 5?

It's not by happenstance that myself and others have glowing success with this. It's the fact that we've taken the time to truly understand the workflow and the pieces involved. And no, it's not always easy, and no, you generally can't just have the basic software do everything for you. This is not an "automatic" process. It takes care, and some understanding of the principles involved to get good results.

And for the record, going to BluRay only eliminates one potential problem area in the workflow. The rest of it will still need to be managed properly.

Qualify my remarks? The file structure of the 5D and 7D is quite similar SNIP



That won't solve your problem. In fact, it's often MORE difficult to do this on a Mac, as there are more pieces involved. Ask in the Final Cut Pro section about using Compressor and the completely un-obvious need for frame controls.




Up to you. I've done both with complete success on numerous occasions.


I'm sorry Perrone, but I've done a bunch of DVDs via 5d, FCP and Compressor and have NEVER once used "frame controls."

What exactly is that and why should I be using it?

(I honestly want to know!)

The last 5dMkii project I output via compressor, it gave me H-264 iphone rez which I've found does INCREDIBLY well on web sites for net compatibility (see www.newvideoaz.com - specifically in the Apriva Pay spot - the America's Cup footage was shot on very high end cameras or used high-rez stills, so it's not an example of 5d work.) and a DV letterbox version that I can burn to any DVD.

Nothing particularly complex about the process at all.

Am I missing something here?

I'm sorry Perrone, but I've done a bunch of DVDs via 5d, FCP and Compressor and have NEVER once used "frame controls."

What exactly is that and why should I be using it?
Am I missing something here?


I have a VERY cursory understanding of Compressor since I've only used it a couple of times, but in working with others here to find the best quality workflow to go from HD to SD, it was found that unless frame controls were turned on in Compressor, it was not possible to get best rescale out of the program.

This article hits the highlights, but I suggest reading through your documentation for a more full understanding:

Using Frame Controls in Compressor - Digital Rebellion Blog (http://www.digitalrebellion.com/blog/posts/using_frame_controls_in_compressor.html)

<<You've chosen Cineform which is an excellent codec, but you need to ensure that you are getting good quality at that step. I saw your post about that transcode producing interlaced footage where it should not. So right off the bat, you've got an error in the workflow that will undoubtedly reduce quality.>>
Cineform gives limited settings - i choose best quality, and "Maintain source frame format" which i expected to yield a 1920x1080p AVI file but apparently 1920x1080i is what you get instead. (the other tow options are 2. Deinterlace and 3. Convert to 24p)

<<Second is the issue that we somehow have to get from 1920x1080 (or 1280x720) to 720x480 for NTSC purposes. When Vegas was my NLE, I chose to use 3rd party applications for this work because the rescaling in Vegas and most other NLEs is decidedly poor. Now that I use Avid, this is no longer necessary.>>
I'll look into Avid but would i still use Vegas to add titles etc?

<<Third is the actual compression from Cineform AVI to Mpeg2. In Vegas Pro, you have the option of using the MainConcept Mpeg2 encoder. I don't know if this is available to you in VMS or not. >>
It is if you do an individual save to disk you have options - the Burn to DVD is totally dumb wizard driven with no options so don't have any idea what it's doing.

<<And how are you exporting your audio? DVD only supports PCM or AAC. What audio are you taking into DVDA 5?>> again the wizard to burn DVD gives no settings and produces a .ac3 audio file. If I render the audio seperately to disk i can get more selective with settings

<<It's not by happenstance that myself and others have glowing success with this. It's the fact that we've taken the time to truly understand the workflow and the pieces involved. And no, it's not always easy, and no, you generally can't just have the basic software do everything for you. This is not an "automatic" process. It takes care, and some understanding of the principles involved to get good results.>>
Where can i get the conceptual knowledge of these principles? A good overall book ?? NLEs just show button functions etc and don't hit on principles

<<And for the record, going to BluRay only eliminates one potential problem area in the workflow. The rest of it will still need to be managed properly>>
But it would be a big problem eliminated - don't most folks are starting to have BluRay players (though i don't yet myself)

Thanks for your help - again.

Cineform gives limited settings - i choose best quality, and "Maintain source frame format" which i expected to yield a 1920x1080p AVI file but apparently 1920x1080i is what you get instead. (the other tow options are 2. Deinterlace and 3. Convert to 24p)


Might want to post about this in the Cineform section. I don't use it so I don't know much about it. But it seems rather odd that it would actually change your source to interlaced.



I'll look into Avid but would i still use Vegas to add titles etc?


Well, Avid is quite the jump from where you are now. And no, if you make the jump to Avid, you won't be using Vegas for anything.



It is if you do an individual save to disk you have options - the Burn to DVD is totally dumb wizard driven with no options so don't have any idea what it's doing.


Limitation of the consumer based version you have. It's not this way in more professional level tools.



again the wizard to burn DVD gives no settings and produces a .ac3 audio file. If I render the audio seperately to disk i can get more selective with settings


Well, perhaps that's the option you should be taking. This wizard thing seems to be causing some real issues.



Where can i get the conceptual knowledge of these principles? A good overall book ?? NLEs just show button functions etc and don't hit on principles


You get that knowlege from a variety of sources. Forums like this are one way. Books, online research, experience, talking to other experienced video editors and other technical folks, etc.



But it would be a big problem eliminated - don't most folks are starting to have BluRay players (though i don't yet myself)


Well, you see it as a big problem. I see it as nothing more than 1 less step in the workflow. BluRay players are making good inroads, but it will be a year or two before I'd say they are prevalent.