Ok, the format of the DV Challenge is still a work in progress, and eventually we will settle into a nice groove.
Here are things that I think worked, and things I think should change:

Technical category: I think this worked well. The goal of this is to get you to hone one particular skill, while doing everything else you have to. Next time it will be something besides cinematography. Maybe best make-up, editing, score, foley, who knows...

Time limit: I know a lot of you want more than three minutes. Watching 20 three minute films twice is two hours of watching. However, I'd be willing to consider a 5 minute time limit, despite the fact that I don't think it will help the quality any.

Web hosting: Everyone seemed to do well, with only a couple snags. I could secure hosting for all our films, but part of this is a learning experience, so I'd rather let you do it on your own.

Titles: Every movie needs a title!!!! Right at the start preferably. Also, four words or less would be nice.

Credits: Credits will need to be included from now on, and credit must be given to music used as well. If we have a longer running time, this won't hurt you.

A first time filmmaker category: No idea how we'd regulate this, as someone from outside the forum could come in and sweep up. I'd love to hear your suggestions on this.

Website: For the next one, we will have a website permanently listing past films, and the infamous wall of shame. If only my web designer wasn't busy with his girlfriend all the time... (you reading this Keith?)

A first time filmmaker category: No idea how we'd regulate this, as someone from outside the forum could come in and sweep up. I'd love to hear your suggestions on this.

Why bother with an extra category? I intend to participate in one of the next DV Challenges and I'm perfectly happy to compete with the experienced guys and girls. If I'm not among the winners, so what? After all it's meant to be fun and you can always try again. And then, some time in the future, I will be one of the experienced guys myself!

And, what's more: did'nt Sean McHenry mention that his contribution to DVC#2 was the first short he ever made? If so, even a novice can win.

Just my 2 (Euro)Cents.

Addendum:

I just hope, there will be many more DV Challenges. It was so much fun to watch the movies, and as I said before, I would like to participate myself.

So, please keep it going!

First, your web guy has a girlfriend? Odd. Most of the ones I know live in a sort of a cave with 18 monitors running video games...Good for him getting out in the public. And good for his girlfriend too. Geeks will rule the earth one day.

Now then, I loved it the way it was but a first timer catagory might help out a bit. I don't know how to regulate it however. Guys like me with a background in all aspects of television may have an advantage simply from being in the same atmosphere with folks that do all aspects of production. On the other hand, it's one thing to read about how to swap out a 1969 Firebird tranny, and another thing to do it.

I think everyone that has watched movies and television, like our generation, has the ability to make something worth while, except those 20 somethings that keep shoving "reality" programming down our throats. And isn't it about time for Maurry to retire. I mean, come on. At least we survived the rash of "Judge this" and "Judge that" shows. Now it's called Court TV. </rant>

Anyway, I'm sure it will be good, even if it stays just like it is. I wasn't out to score prizes, I just wanted to prove to myself I could do the whole thing on my own. I think most folks are thinking the same thing.

Actually, the prizes may be what cause an issue further down the line. If folks are just doing it because they want to and maybe for some minor recognition, cool. If pros swoop in just to score goodies, that may be a contributing factor. I hope that doesn't happen.

Sean McHenry

The longer time limit is a great idea.

I think the format we have is pretty good as is. Maybe one other category, like special effects as it is so popular right now, or just rotate the second one as you have mentioned.

Would not mind it going to 5 minutes, as at least you could have proper intos and credits and look more professional. But, it will mean more time for the judges, especially if the participation goes way up, and I think it will. Compare the first DV Challenge to the second!

As far as a beginner category, I think it would be impossible to regulate, and determine who really is a beginner. This was my first anything, but no one else knows that for sure. This is a great way to learn, and shoot for the best you can do and keep improving! Bring on Steven Spielberg! It is kind of similar to when used to love playing tennis. I could never find anyone good to play with, and so it got boring and was no “CHALLENGE," and I was not good at all. Finally I got the chance to play with a state champion, and got my ass handed to me every game, big time! But, I learned more and had more fun playing tennis than I ever had before or since.

I don't think that age should be a factor, as I bought my first camera at 57, just 9 months ago, and never dabbled before.

Everyone loves getting prizes, but are we setting ourselves up for trouble? Are the other people we find to help us going to start thinking they should get something for participating? You know, "Please take time from you busy schedule and come help me make a short where I can win XXX prizes." "What do I get?" Some of us don't have immediate family available to help out, and we have to rely on friends or even strangers, and it is their time too. Do we want to maybe start paying people to participate or star in our shorts? It doesn't sound right to me. Maybe just some great looking certificates, showing the contest, date, number of entries , and what catagory won? What about tax purposes? Just a thought.

Let's have some fun.

Mike

I agree with Mike.

1.) The rules should stay as is. Age and level of expertise should not enter into the equation. This was the first time I did anything like this and I did it for the experience and to learn. I'm floored that I won a special award the first time out, but that is not why I entered. First timers will become better moviemakers if they compete with the pros.

2.) Keep the prizes simple. It's not about winning lots of cash, it's about winning experience. So, from that standpoint, everyone who submits and watches all the other entries, wins.

3.) The time limit probably should stay at 3 minutes. Yes, it will help the judges not consume so much whiskey [Sorry, Dylan :) ], but it will also help us to better hone our craft. I think my piece would have benefited by an extra 2 minutes. However, If I worked harder at it, I could have figured out how to get my point across better in the three minutes.

Time limit:
Well.. "less is more" :) I first thought that 3 minits is short. But then you cut out stuff that don't need to be in there. Limiting possibilities forces alternative solution. See the trailer of Say no to human alien mating... only 30 secs and real cool. A bit longer running time allows you to have nice intros and credits so that might be an advantage. Maybe we should try with 4 minits... though it feels like a "wrong" number.


Web hosting: .
True. An alternative would also be to use something like bittorrent if we want to share bigger files. I personally would think it would be nice to have a big 100 mb version of the movies and view them. It might not be an option for all but broadband users would appreciate it.


A first time filmmaker category:
I think of myself as a first time filmmaker still. This challenge was the 2nd movie i ever did. Personally I don't mind competing against experienced people. It puts higher demands on me 'cause I know what others are doing. And I don't consider it just a challenge against others, it's a challenge against me as well. I challenge myself to get out there and do something and complete it. By doing that I am gaining new experiences.

Edit: just removed most of the quotes.

Jeff brought up a good point. Let's say Spielberg does enter this little contest and uses a Sony F900 and goes Full on HD with 5.1 surround, etc. While initially that sounds discouraging, it gets you to think and follow the expert.

After that first contest he enters, we are all going to be critically evaluating his piece to see how he did it. How he told the story, what camera angles he used, what edit decisions he made, etc.

In fact, we might even think about adding a guest short producer/director. In fact, invite all the pros to participate. You never know, Ron Howard might find it fun to do a one man thing on the weekend between shoots.

In fact, I think that's a great idea. Maybe they wouldn't win a Steady Stick or a $100 coupon for goodies but they would certainly inspire the rest of us to see what they can come up with. In fact, in a way, even if they brought in the whole "studio system" it would be a sort of $300 camcorder against all of Hollywood. And - as if that weren't enough, somebody might end up getting discovered.

Chris, Dylan?

Edit - Also, I bet Guy has some connections that might be willing to lend a name to the whole thing. I would love to compete against Lucas, etc.

Sean

In questioning the awarding of prizes, I centainly don't want to sound like we don't want or need sponsors. We Do!

But, instead of prizes, small monitary donations to help offset the up-coming cost of certificates, a nice frame, and the postage to mail them to the winners. Maybe a website where we all could post, and they could have ads there. Cheap enough! That grand prize would have paid for a site for a year.

Mike

Right. I really appreciate Guy and the folks at Dvcreators.net pitching in and giving us some cool stuff. I wrote Guy a note this morning telling him thanks. I think we can still do the prizes as long as they stay simple like they are now. If we start giving away NYU Film School Scholorships, I'll be there but I don't want that to be driving in semi-pro competition just for the prizes.

I think we are OK at the level we are at now but I agree, someone underwriting the supplies for Dylan would be nice too. In fact, if he wants to set up something I might even consider underwriting it for the upcoming event. Shouldn't be much and it's an opportunity to give something back to the group.

Sean

I sure hope I didn't seem ungrateful for the generosity of our current sponsors. I agree that their donations make a big difference and we need them, and others, to help this grow.

My point is in line with Sean's. While I wouldn't turn down a big cash prize if one were offered to me, that's not the reason I'm interested in these challenges.

I also agree with Mike and Sean in that it would be wonderful to have sufficient sponsorship to defray hosting costs and possibly Dylan's time. Although, let's stick to cash and leave the hard stuff alone. :)

In fact, we might even think about adding a guest short producer/director. In fact, invite all the pros to participate. You never know, Ron Howard might find it fun to do a one man thing on the weekend between shoots.

In fact, I think that's a great idea. Maybe they wouldn't win a Steady Stick or a $100 coupon for goodies but they would certainly inspire the rest of us to see what they can come up with. In fact, in a way, even if they brought in the whole "studio system" it would be a sort of $300 camcorder against all of Hollywood. And - as if that weren't enough, somebody might end up getting discovered.

Chris, Dylan?

Edit - Also, I bet Guy has some connections that might be willing to lend a name to the whole thing. I would love to compete against Lucas, etc.

Sean


This is a very interesting idea, Sean! I'm not sure that Howard, Lucas or Spielberg would have any interest or time to do such a thing, but just having any accomplished producer/director as a guest competitor would help us all learn.

I am really new on this board and this was my first attempt at a movie. I had a great time and learned a lot while filming. Thanks. I hope the challenge keeps going.

I like the idea of having to complete a project around a given theme with time restrictions.

I had a college professor that felt to be a great writer one had to learn to be brief. Every week she would give us a reading. Then we were to write a critique in 95-100 words. No less No More. It was difficult at first to think that small, but as the weeks wore on you learned to write. I know that I have watched too many movies that are over two hours long that should have been shorter. So I kind of like the 3 min idea. How about a 1 min contest just for fun sometime, that would pressure us.

How about if well all donate 5.00 via paypal each contest, to be split between the judges, their time has got to be worth something, we are trying for prizes or recognition, they are just trying to make us better film makers and have expenses too.

I have a 29-year-old daughter so it was a while ago that I was in school. Now we have auto-summarize in Word. Does anyone know where that filter is in Final Cut? Sure would be handy.

No prizes would be okay.
Prizes would be way better. I'll do it either way, but the prizes add an element of fun to it. Keep in mind too, that while a steady stick might not seem like much to someone with a garage full of gear it would be a significant addition to the kit of a lot of those who are liable to enter.
Obviously, as has been said, the real prize is learning experience; well, EVERYBODY gets that, the winners should get more- if possible.
A contest without prizes is like xmass without gifts, the true meaning remains, but a bit of the fun has crept out the whole thing.
Just my opinion.

If worse comes to worse next time around, I would be glad to host anyone's video if needed. Don't be afraid to ask me.

I think that the three minute limit should be maintained for several reasons. Some of which have already been mentioned. "Brevity is the soul of wit". And I over maxed my volume limit by almost a 100% at my provider from uploading my piece and downloading all the other pieces. Shorter spots would mean better looking pieces with the same bandwidth.

The challenge is a challenge because of its limits. I would hate to see them lost. I saw this challenge as an exercise, like an obstacle course. The stakes are low, so I wasn't afraid to experiment, and take chances.

Taking part was just as important as "winning". I think keeping the stakes at a "just for fun" level is very important, so that no one, regardless of experience level should feel intimidated.

I also want to express my approval of Dylan's constant "tweaking" of the rules and limits during the process. This includes extending time limits (even though that frustrated some participants because they worked so hard to abide by them) and creating unexpected winner categories in the end. Doing this, reinforced the feeling that this event is for fun and learning, and shouldn't be taken too "seriously" (sorry for all the """"). This also brought life into the event (made it an event). I would like to see that continued in the future.

Creating a way to subsidize this event is a good idea, and I am in favor of some way to make a voluntary donation to a pot for the organizers. Paypal sounds like a good idea. I don't think that a mandatory entry fee would be a good idea though, only because it could potentially discourage participants.

I am also in favor of giving the "corporate" sponsors of this challenge lots of publicity.

***Thanks, Guy Cochran at the DV eStore! Excellent demo video for the FS-4! The eStore Rocks!*** (for example)

I feel like the DVInfo net is a consumer forum (or at least it started that way) and I think that the providers of the goods and services related to this field should be encouraged to peddle their wares here, and stay involved.

I wanted to touch on this again. I think increasing the time limit will increase the quality and varience of the competition. Different filmmakers have different ways of doing things. Some are better suited to a fast pace, others move slower. As for brevity being the sole of wit, well, sometimes- Would "Seven Samuri" or "Lawrence of Arabia" have been better if they were shorter? Not in my opinion. For some of the filmmakers creating a story that can fill a five minute piece will be quite a challange in and of itself.
And of course, one can always choose to make a three minute film if that is what one wishes to do.

But I think that the point of the challenge, is not to make "Lawrence of Arabia", or "Seven Samurai". Filmmaking is often about packing information into time frames. The exercise is to work with a set of givens, and make something out of that. I don't think the challenge should be about showcasing what one can do.

One sharpens ones skills by having to use the tools one has (or not yet developed) to adapt to the unexpected. That is the reality of filmmaking in the real world. The "crisis" created by the limitations of a challenge is fertile ground, to discover what one can, can't (yet) do.

I disagree.
And, obviously, I'm not suggesting that anyone make Lawrence of Arabia. I am saying that the increased time limit will give some of the entrants room to experiment that they would not otherwise have had. Experimentation is also a conducive to learning. AND ultimately at three minutes or five or two hundred each creator decides what challanges She/he will face for themselves.
Once again, if one wishes to make a three minute film one can. One can easily impose that limit upon oneself, imposing it upon others seems, to me unneccesary.

I see your point. I really do. I don't even disagree.

What I liked about the challenge, with it's time limit, was that I was not afraid to make even a thirty second spot. If Dylan had said that there was a time limit of ten minutes, I'm sure that I would not have participated, even if he had said ten minutes or less. The suggestion of ten minutes alone would have been too big for me. I see my piece as the first two scenes of a longer film. I see Dylan's and Chris Thiele's pieces as portraits. I don't think that the challenge should require that the entries be complete stories - unless that happens to be the challenge. This time it was cinematography, the next time costumes, and after that a complete story.

I also feel like any challenge over a max of four minutes would require entries to be sent in on CD or DVD for them to look decent. But maybe I am wrong about that.

I agree though, that people should not feel confined.

My story would have benefited from an extra minute or two of time. However, the purpose of this challenge was to tell the best story you could, based on the given theme, within the 3-minute time allotment. From that standpoint, I probably picked the wrong story, wrong genre, or both.

I agree that some flexibility, say between 3-5 minutes, may allow for producers to express their ideas and creativity better. I guess the question to ask is, what should the purpose of these challenges be? Is it to learn the art of making shorts? If so, what length of short? Is it to get out and make movies to learn new skills or hone existing ones? If so, does the time limit really matter (other than from the judges' standpoint)? Is the purpose to compete with others for prizes? If so, then a set of strict guidelines is necessary to offer a fair, competitive field.

I see value in allowing for a degree of time flexibility, but I believe the purpose of the challenges may need to be better fleshed out to allow Dylan and the other judges to decide on what factors should be set in stone and which ones should be left to the producers to decide.

Time is probably the most crucial factor when it comes to giving producers creative flexibility. Perhaps there could be 2 or 3 categories:

a.) Movies of 1.5 minutes or less
b.) Movies between 1.5 and 3 minutes
c.) Movies between 3 and 5 minutes

This would require more time on the judges' part. However, I believe a 1 minute short could be at a competitive disadvantage when compared to a 3-5 minute short.

You should consider releasing the topic on a monday and ending on a sunday; this would give people a more logical time to think about their film ideas, and then when thier off work on saturday and sunday, they can shoot and edit. Thats what killed me from completeing my video; by the time i had it everything planned out, i could not get anyone/including my self to give up work to shoot and edit before friday.

3 minutes is an interesting length. It reminded me that the old rolls of 8mm and super 8mm came in 3 minute loads as I recall. But then, I'm old. I always wanted a film camera with single frame function to get into animation.

I liked 3 minutes and I too think the situation was intended, or at least worked out just right to introduce a certain amount of stress. I liked that part. I don't think it's so much about getting a polished piece I think as it is about getting folks to think and move. If it was 5 minutes and I had a month, I think I could have done so much better but then, I would almost be treating it like just more work to do rather than working off kinetic energy (and donuts).

I think it would be fine if it stayed just like it is. I'll work around the issues and make the best video project I can. I actually built the timeline and laid in the sound track to exactly 3 minutes initially. The lengths of the shots and timing issues made the rest of the decisions pretty much on their own. I came in just over 2:58 as I recall.

Anyway, flawed or not, I liked it. Change it or not, I'll be in the next one. Someody call Sean Penn and see if he want's to compete next time.

Sean McHenry

[QUOTE=Wes Coughlin]You should consider releasing the topic on a monday and ending on a sunday; this would give people a more logical time to think about their film ideas, and then when thier off work on saturday and sunday, they can shoot and edit. QUOTE]


I think this is an excellent suggestion. Maybe post theme on Monday night or Tuesday morning and close say 12:01am or 9am Monday. Part of my problem getting help was the same thing, the people were working. You would have the weekdays to think and plan and then shoot later. Maybe a lot of very tired people on Monday morning, but that happens anyway.

Mike

I definitely second that (or should it be " I definitely third that" ??? hmmm). Anyway, I think it's a good idea to have the competion run from monday to monday.

i actually like the three-minute limit, but i violated it with my nearly five minutes of a dog running around. here's the thing, though, they let me keep my video in the competition but without outrightly DQ'ing me, they eliminated me from contending for the prize, which was fine with me.

i thought my idea was a 3-minute idea, but i didn't not like any of my 3-minute versions, so ultimately, it was more important to me to make (and complete) the video i wanted to make than to compete for glory or prizes. my (IMHO more important) prize was making something i'm sorta happy with.....

i thought their compromise was very fair. keep the video listed as a participant video, but put it out of contention.

i think the spirit of the challenge is to encourage folks to complete a video in a brief time frame, and i am all for keeping this spirit alive. i think they handled it perfectly. no wall of shame, but no prize contention either, but also recognizing full participation and completion of a video designed for the theme.

so i think they should keep the three-minute rule, and if it is violated (or if any other rules are violated but otherwise the video is complete), label the entry into a separate category "for exhibition only"--as out of contention but not on the wall of shame either (where is that dreaded wall, anyway??)

i think that keeps the spirit of encouraging folks to make stuff, but keeps the rules for competing intact as well. the winners should follow the rules, but the non-winners should be honored for having taken on the challenge.

there are plenty of very competitive film festivals out there. it is nice to have something here which just purely honors the effort to complete a film, in which participating can be its own reward.

I really do fail to see how an additional two minutes is going to somehow ruin the competition. If the competition is set at three minutes, I will make a three minute movie, but I do not agree with the philosophy that a five minute film is inherently less challenging than a three minute film. More challanging for some, yes, but not for everyone.

Take a minute and think about it.

If one watches the entries and comes away with the idea that some of the entrants had difficulty cramming their story into a three minute slot, one would not be mistaken; but I would urge that person to take another look, there are easily as many entries, that despite their other merits, do not have anywhere near enough story to fill a three minutre slot- for these filmakers finding five minutes of content would indeed be a challange. Look at how many people ended up on the wall of shame- they did not get there because they had too much content, but because they had none.

I submit that for many of the entrants and prospective entrants, five minutes would be considerably MORE challenging than three. If it is decided to keep the three minute limit this decision should be done with the understanding that it is with the idea of making the competition more accessable, not because of some misguided idea that making a five minute movie is by its very nature unversally easier.

BTW, I am just arguing a point here, regardless of how this all works out, I fully intend to compete next time.

The other extreme would be to have everyone do a 45 minute film. Now that would be tough. Even if we had say 3 months, just getting a plot and story line complicated enough to roll that long and be decent fun to watch would be a real challenge too.

I'm flexible. 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 1 week starting on Monday or Friday, whatever. I'll be there. I will say I think releasing the topic on Monday makes some sense. I spent the first day plot hatching and the rest of the weekend was a wash by then as I still had to get a rough outline on paper.

During the week, we can all steal away at lunch and write or plan where to get props from. Scour the internet at night for ideas, etc. Then that would give you the next weekend to put it all into action.

That might also teach us a lesson on pre-planning. I failed to get 2 important shots that would have made the concept of my entry so much easier to understand, without giving it all away till near the end.

If you forget to preplan a shot and you finish shooting Saturday night or Sunday afternoon, you may not be able to get it. Good way to make sure we storyboard and set up a good shot list.

Sean McHenry

Ok, I've given some thought to the suggestions here, and my repsonses are:

Start day:
In terms of the starting day, it doesn't matter to me. I picked Thursday because it gives you Thursday night to come up with your idea and write a script, Friday to get everything in order, Saturday/Sunday to shoot, since that's when most people have time off work, then Mon-Friday for post production, which you can do by yourself.
If we announce it on Monday, you probably still won't be able to shoot until Sat/Sun (for most people), which leaves you at best Sunday for post production, and if anything goes wrong, you don't have time to fix it.

Running Time:
There is a psychological deterrant to shooting a longer run time. I think we'll keep a *suggested* time limit of three minutes, with a cap of four minutes, should you need to squeeze a little more story in there.

First timer's category:
I'm not sure how we'd police this, but it would exclude anyone who works in the professional industry, from wedding video, to a TV studio, and especially Sean McHenry. :) I want it to be for people who have just bought their first camera, who want to take a shot at making something, without any pressure, and without the need to compare what they make to seasoned videographers. Love to hear more feedback on this!

Entry fee:
BEST IDEA EVER!!! Who suggested it first? I love you.
Not sure what to charge but a couple thoughts are; entry fee could cover building and maintaining the DV Challenge website, with permanent links to films. Small cash donations to the judges for helping. Maybe a little advertising. Slush fund for Dylan's annual bender in Jamaica. Maybe even get some t-shirts printed for the winners.
If we broke it down into the seperate categories for first timers vs the rest of us, then I'd keep the first timer category free or next to free to help get people shooting.

Oh yeah, although you can shoot on any camera, only films shot on XL2's will be elegible for winning.... Just kidding. :)

Oh yeah, although you can shoot on any camera, only films shot on XL2's will be elegible for winning.... Just kidding. :)

How about baby brother, XL1s?!

Sounds good Dylan. Lets us know the details.

Mike

Wow. Ok, I guess we finally found out Dylans thoughts on Canon Vs Sony, or anything else for that matter.

So, I do like the idea of a first timer award or keeping a seperate catagory. I would hope it would level the field a bit. On the criteria, I'm not so sure locking out professionals in the field would have made it tick for me. That is, while I have worked in various aspects of television, I had never done the whole show myself until DV Challenge 2. So while I have a job in the field, it was still my first attempt at such a task. It might seem a little like saying a bicycle repairman has to compete in the Tour de France as a Professional. He never raced but he has lots of experience with bikes.

I only argue that as it may affect others in related fields. After this one, I'm not a "noob" anyway so it doesn't work for or against me next time. I know I will never be a 1st timer again.

On the entry fee, I generally like the idea but it may keep people out and complaints of lost or missing (in Jamaica) entry fees could be an issue Dylan may not want to have to work with. I would however support corporate sponsorship in that they help with administration fees and out of pocket fees, but not bar tabs...

DVCreaters.net kicked in nice booty this year and I love that. If anyone else would like to sponsor the event, we might give them a mention or if the T-Shirt idea pans out, a spot on the shirt or something. Frankly, for the sake of the first DV Challenge winner and myself, if you get shirts made, let me know as I would wear it proudly. Sponsorship on T-shirts in general might not be a bad idea either. They could simply announce participation in the event. I'd buy one tomorrow. Dylan might want to get with Chris on that but I have my wallet in my hand right now.

I would also be willing to kick in some cold hard cash to help sponsor the next event. Perhaps like PBS, set levels of participation and sponsorship Dylan. Couldn't hurt to ask around.

Sean

I agree with Dylan that Thursday should be the day the theme is released. this gives the weekend to shoot, the week to edit, reshoot, and get it online.

I agree with Dylan that Thursday should be the day the theme is released. this gives the weekend to shoot, the week to edit, reshoot, and get it online.


Dylan did not say what the day "should," he just gave the reason for choosing it. Perhaps this is something we should discuss further.

All I know is that coming up with your idea, writing, storyboarding, getting props, finding your actors, and setting up equipment can take two to three days and then your weekend is gone. Maybe a Wednesday start would be good, but let's look at it further.

Either way, I'll do my best to get in and done with mine. It is sure a great learning tool!

Mike

I would like to see a Wed Evening or Thursday AM release to the theme. I work during the week and need the weekend to shoot. But I can edit in the evenings after work. That way I could plan the shots on Thurs and Friday. Shoot on the weekend and get it uploaded. We could move the end time up as well to keep the amount of time the same.

Or We could think about releasing the theme, on Friday night and running the contest until Midnight Sunday the following week. That way we would have two weekends, and still keep the contest under 10 days.
Barbara

Dylan did not say what the day "should," he just gave the reason for choosing it.




It was certainly not my intent to put words in anyone's mouth I was merely agreeing with Dylan's reasons. Goodness. :(

I'm thinking about 1:37 am of Thursday morning would be good for me. And the contest should run 6 days, 14 hours and 26 minutes.

I'm joking naturally. It should start at 1:38am like any real contest should...

I agree with everyone. We all have some valid points. I like Dylans thoughts on why he chose Friday evening. In retrospect, if I would have had to shoot, edit, compress all on the same day, I never would have been done. In fact, I am reversing myself. Starting on a Monday might be a bad idea as we only have the very last 2 days to get anything serious done. Too big a time pinch for most folks I think.

Sean

I would like to see a Wed Evening or Thursday AM release to the theme. I work during the week and need the weekend to shoot. But I can edit in the evenings after work. That way I could plan the shots on Thurs and Friday. Shoot on the weekend and get it uploaded. Barbara

I like Barbara's idea to release the theme 24-hours earlier. That will address people's concerns of not having sufficient time to write a script, storyboard it, find props and locations, and finish all the pre-shoot logistics. Also, I do think it is crucial to allow the weekend for shooting and the following week days for post-production and encoding.

Therefore, if the theme was announced on Wednesday and the finished short was required to be uploaded to a website by midnight PST the following Friday, that would give everyone more than enough time to finish.

As far as the time limit goes, I like Dylan's idea to allow for a 3-4 minute maximum time range. That gives those of us who feel we would benefit by an extra 60 seconds the opportunity to prove it. :)

Concerning first timers versus "seasoned" veterans, it does not matter to me. I would prefer keeping the group together as it gives first timers a better challenge. But, either way, the DVC's are worth evolving and expanding.

Finally, should there be a token entrance fee to help Dylan and the judges with their time and expenses? Yes, I believe it is only fitting--especially as the number of participants grows. How many did we have in DVC1 and in DVC2? DVC3 could be 45-50 entrants with 30-35 actually posting a piece. That is a lot of work for Dylan and crew. I say $25 per person minimum.

Dylan,

First thanks a bunch for running this... it is great. I am shamed, currently, because I got busy that week. I will be back though.

My suggestions:

1. I really like the earlier start - like Tuesday. Assuming the weekend is the best shooting time, that gives us a lot more time to write, assemble cast, etc.

2. I like a 5 minute limit. It gives people more flexibility. Those who believe that 3 should be enough to say what you want to say can still make theirs 3 and then stand out for their excellent economy of expression.

3. Prizes are great... They are not the point, but the definitely give that extra ounce of encouragement. Maybe as a nod to the sponsors (thank you sponsors) we can require that the winner post a pic of themselves with the prize.

4. Entry fees... I would be fine with a nominal fee... $10 or so. I think it helps people take it more seriously when they have paid to be there.

5. Judging Categories. I mentioned this before, I am still for it... I think there should be three categories: technical, artistic, and use of theme.
As it stands with only technical and use of theme someone could make a technically perfect short, right on theme but with no artistic merit and win. I know that you are actually considering artistic merit in the judging, which is great - I would just like to see it broken out.

6. Minor point... but I would have loved to have the links to the movies in the "here are the winners" post.

Again thanks a bunch... it is a really cool thing that you do. Keep up the good work.

It was certainly not my intent to put words in anyone's mouth I was merely agreeing with Dylan's reasons. Goodness. :(

Sorry if you took offense Michael, I assure you none was intended. We Michaels have to stick together you know!

I am too new to this to be able to compete on an artistic basis yet, but I will get better, so it is important to me to have time for a good idea and story line. My entry, my first anything---short, long or anything else---took me until Thursday, to come up with a good idea. In fact, I had already posted that I would be on the wall of shame, until the idea struck me.

Whatever day, I'll be there or on the wall! Wednesday does sound pretty good though.

As far as the entry fee, if there is one, I would say keep as low as is feasable. To high may keep some out. If is is say $10.00, but you have to pay just to enter, then you assure that less people will sign just to put their name in the post, and give them incentive to shoot something.

Just as a caution, you may at some point, have to limit the number of participants. When it starts to climb to 50 or more, the judges could be in serious trouble. You may have bitten off more than you can chew!

Mike

Dylan,

First thanks a bunch for running this... it is great. I am shamed, currently, because I got busy that week. I will be back though.

I'm making the Wall Of Shame starting by first names alphabetically, just for you Barry. :)



1. I really like the earlier start - like Tuesday. Assuming the weekend is the best shooting time, that gives us a lot more time to write, assemble cast, etc.

I think I might go for first thing Thursday morning, or late wednesday night. That gives you two full days of pre-production. You *should* have a talent pool, locations, and crew lined up for a weekend shoot well before anyway.


2. I like a 5 minute limit. It gives people more flexibility. Those who believe that 3 should be enough to say what you want to say can still make theirs 3 and then stand out for their excellent economy of expression.


The only problem here is that a 3 minute film is considerably different than a 5 minute film. One of the ways I want to keep the playing field level is by limiting the amount of playing field itself. Limiting the time makes you maximise your creativity (which is why TV commercials are the most creative medium of all) over the amount of production you can squeeze in.
A 5 minute short is close to double the time of a three minute, if you inlcude credits. That is a significant advantage for those who stick to the "suggested" time. I WILL give a five minute running time some more thought, but so far, I think the best balance is a 3 minute suggested time, with a 4 minute max. Honestly, I believe it won't make the submissions better, just longer.


3. Prizes are great... They are not the point, but the definitely give that extra ounce of encouragement. Maybe as a nod to the sponsors (thank you sponsors) we can require that the winner post a pic of themselves with the prize.

I like that idea!


4. Entry fees... I would be fine with a nominal fee... $10 or so. I think it helps people take it more seriously when they have paid to be there.

Yeah and if you all paid $200 to enter, like most short film competitions, then everyone would have completed their entry and I'd be playing with my new XL2. :)
I'm thinking the entry fee should be at least $20, but then I'll be able to get t-shirts printed as prizes for the winners, and everyone that enters would at least get a certificate of completion.


5. Judging Categories. I mentioned this before, I am still for it... I think there should be three categories: technical, artistic, and use of theme.
As it stands with only technical and use of theme someone could make a technically perfect short, right on theme but with no artistic merit and win. I know that you are actually considering artistic merit in the judging, which is great - I would just like to see it broken out.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm not against the idea at all, I'll think about it. I'd rather leave Best Film a devision of story and production value, and then give "artistic merit" it's own prize, which is sort of what happened with this DVC2, and the Cinematography award. We could keep Best Cinematography as a permanent "artistic" award. Not exactly the same thing, but close.


6. Minor point... but I would have loved to have the links to the movies in the "here are the winners" post.

I meant to but they kept pressuring me to get the winners up. :)


Again thanks a bunch... it is a really cool thing that you do. Keep up the good work.

No problem, now get your butt off the Wall Of Shame! :D