Moving from HDV I'm a little daunted by the options for media recording and archiving. What's the most reliable for all-day recording at seminars/conferences?

I started at MEAD-S01, SDHC + the Sony PXU-MS240 240gb back device, but then thought HD and presumed the PHU-120K was the pick until I read about some issues with the PHu-60k and the usb2 implementation, than I heard about HawkWoods SSD drives, finally I'm back at the premium priced SxS or SxS-1 because reliability is a priority.

For back-up I was thinking a Other World Computing Mercury Elite-AL Pro QX2 4-bay Hardware RAID enclosure and esata card for macpro, with blu-ray as permanent or the PDW-U1 for proper long-shelf archiving.

I know choice and brand is important - we had issues with media in the the MRC1K CF recorders.

You may want to consider the NanoFlash. Very compact and reliable.

2 64GB CF cards will give you up to 6 hrs record time. And you can record to SxS at the same time for redundancy.

You could also consider the AJA Ki Pro records SDI out to Prores422.

There are a few other options as well, like a Matrox MX02.

Or Sony's SD card HDV recorders. Lower quality but less expensive.

I use the NanoFlash, the best solution in my mind.

I've got the nanoflash on my wishlist for chromakey. Solution must provide for all-day conference recording i.e. 6-7 hours on-call all day, little chance to empty cards as I also have to shoot event photos. At the moment we use HVR-Z5P to tape with the MRC1K 'relay' to cover tape change. These events don't need the HQ modes on SDI out.

Mark,

You are wise to recognize the value of staying with genuine SxS cards. I know there are other people here on this forum who will stongly disagree with me and testify they have never had a problem with SDHC cards. But I'm not willing to risk it. For every person you says they are safe, I can point to someone else who had problems. Even SDHC cards that seem to fine at first, can develop problems later. Is it worth it?? Not for me. I am not personally aware of anyone who has had a problem with SxS recording.

I have a Nanoflash and it is an excellent piece of equipment for the right situation. In your case, I think it is overkill and just one more unnecessary level of complexity.

If I was in your shoes, I'd buy a couple of genuine 32GB SxS cards and a PXU-MS240. This way, you avoid all the hassles and/or risks of other solutions. Maybe 16GB cards might even be enough
Sony | PXU-MS240 Mobile Storage Unit | PXU-MS240 | B&H Photo

With that combination you could shoot all day and never have to erase cards. When one card fills up, you could off-load it to the MS240 in just a few minutes (including running a data check), reformat the card, and start shooting on it again when card #2 fills up. Repeat as necessary.

I've been using the MS240 for a few months now and it is totally fool proof. Cheaper than buying tons of cards, cheaper than buying a Nanoflash, and safer than using non-SxS cards. Even Sony says their non-SxS card media should only be used as a "spare tire" in an emergency and not to be counted on for workhorse daily shooting.

Anyway, that's what I'd suggest even if money was an object.

I'll profess my bias towards SDHC cards but that's because money is an object for me as well as workflow.

That said, if money is no object I'd suggest getting 5 or 6 32GB SXS or SXS-1 cards.

The PXU-MS240 looks like an excellent piece of kit and at a reasonable price for what it does. My concern is the "human error" factor. Having to offload and format a card during a shoot is a human error risk. In some situations it's no problem and others it might be. There's always the "duh" moment when you forget a step, hit the wrong button, format the wrong card. Personally I think the safest thing is get a bunch of cards and certainly the PXU-MS240 would be great in a pinch and might be fine when you know you have time to breath during a given shoot (but even breathing can result in the occasional cough or sneeze).

BTW I have certainly seen people who have had issues with SXS failing. It's rare. Sony will attempt to rescue the media and will replace the card. It certainly has happened but certainly a lot less frequently than SDHC.

Again my issue has been the "human error" element. That seems to be the largest number of issues I see in the forums and it's usually due to offloading during a shoot. That's why I find it safer to have 6 SDHC than 2 SXS. Humans are far more fallible than SXS cards and SDHC cards and I find reducing human intervention the highest priority. Basically SXS plus humans is a bigger risk than SDHC with minimized human intervention.

That said, if you can get a bunch of SXS cards that is certainly more trustworthy than SDHC.

The very act of leaving the camera for a moment to offload to any device, especially if the shoot is still in progress, opens the door to all sorts of mishaps. It certainly depends on the shoot circumstances though.

Mark,

If money is truly no object then yes get SxS Pro cards and a nanoFlash with several CF cards. In order to minimize risk you need to have redundancy. A pure and simple concept that is followed by any IT professional. On site also have a laptop and two HD's. As you fill each SxS and CF card, off load to two HD's via laptop. Have enough SxS and CF cards to completely capture the entire days events. That way you will never have to reuse cards until you can verify that the HD copies are good. In place of the nanoFlash you could use the AJA or other similar portable device. I just like the nanoFlash unit because it is small. Quality of CF cards is a must but I've been using the Transcend 64GB CF cards and they so far have not given me any problems.

Next level down would be to use SDHC cards with adapters in place of the SxS Pro cards. Since you will be recording to both in-camera media as well as the CF cards in the nanoFlash the risk of using SDHC cards is minimized. Still some risk but very manageable.

If you remove the redundant recording, on-site multiple backups, and/or start to off-load and reuse cards during the event your risk level start to increase and by removing multiple elements your risk starts to grow exponentially. That's not to say that you can't have a flawless session with just using the bare minimum of SDHC cards but again it comes down to the amount of risk you want to take on.

My current procedure it to use 16GB SDHC cards with MxR adapters (I have 12 cards so I can shoot a whole days worth without having to reuse a card) in addition I simultaneously record to a nanoFlash using the 64GB CF cards (again enough for an entire days worth of shooting). As the cards fill up I have the cards copied to two separate HD's. No reusing of the cards until all footage is verified to be successfully copied to both drives. So the week points in my chain are camera failure or camera operator error (but I always have at least one additional backup camera running).

It's really just a risk management program that I've had to learn to live with. Funny how I didn't seem to worry as much when I was recording to tape.

Garrett

Funny how I didn't seem to worry as much when I was recording to tape.

Maybe you didn't work with tape often enough. Between drop outs, tapes being "eaten," creases, issues with record heads, issues with playback heads, issues with head alignment, tape is a nightmare.
I've worked with everything from 2" through Digibeta. Don't even talk to me about BetaSX! I can give you 25 years of tape based nightmares that I don't have at all with file based recording.

Craig, I completely understand about the pitfalls of tape based acquisition. The solution to risk management simply seemed to be to set up multiple cameras and or feed a deck to also tape to. I guess I never really though about it until going to a file based work flow because I never approached it from an IT perspective.

Garrett

The only problem with the nanoFlash is not being able to hot swap cards while recording. You must stop recording in order to remove or insert a CF card. I also want a nanoFlash but this is a deal breaker for me because I shoot events.

The bit I don't quite get is that I read several people saying that SDHC cards are unreliable, compared to SXS cards. I can accept that. Then in the same breath I am being told the Nano Flash is the way to go. Surely this also relies on memory cards albeit CF cards.

I too am glad to see the back of tape, having had three tapes snarl up in camera and several tapes which failed to record anything on the first two or three minutes (ironically these were Sony tapes). I have not had any problems with SDHC cards (yet) and have shot many hours of video with the EX3.

When the EX1 first came out I was drawn to it, but put off by the overpriced cost of SXS cards. When it was discovered that the EX cameras would also record to SDHC cards then I made my purchase of an EX3 and haven't looked back since. Imagine how many more cameras Sony could be selling if only they sold the SXS cards at a sensible price. I did question this very point at a Sony Pro meeting, and the reply was that they could recover data from a SXS card if a fault occurs. Well for the price they are asking I wouldn't expect any fault, and quite frankly you should be able to recover data on a SDHC card too.

Just my two-pence worth

Steve, CD is suppose to be working on coming out with a firmware update that would make the NF hot swappable. Not sure where it is in their list of requested upgrades but we'll see.

Vincent, from my understanding, CF's are more stable in general than SDHC. I'm not an electrical engineer but my friend is (he's actually a hardware engineer designing this stuff) and he confirmed that CF cards are indeed more stable. He tried to explain it to me but I tuned out after he started talking about the interface and controller protocols and all that stuff. They also can provide faster transfer rates.

I don't think it is really an issue for this discussion thought. The bigger issue is that the SxS slots in the EX1/3 are originally set up be PCIe standards instead of the USB 2.0 standards that the SDHC adapters use. That is why the Sony SxS reader won't read the adapter cards. The SxS slots in the camera were not originally set up for USB and that is, I believe, why prior to the latest firmware updates, many people were having problems with their SDHC+adapter setups.

That said, I did update my firmware and am happily using SDHC cards, overcranked and all, and I have not had any problems yet (knock on wood).

The NF was originally made to take CF cards. So the whole interface is designed to utilize those standards. However, as with any transfer of information, there is always the possibility of errors. That is why I believe strongly in duel systems. If you notice I do not rely on only the NF. In fact I can't see myself ever just using that. The way I look at it, if I'm going to be recording to the NF I might as well stick a couple of cards in the SxS slot as well and have some insurance.

The NF does three things for me. It gives improved quality, adds parallel acquisition so is a backup system, and it actually improves my work flow efficiency by recording directly to MXF or QT wrapped files.

Garrett

I am old enough to also recount too many tales of tape failures so I have gladly embraced digital recording. I also do a lot of all day recording. When I first bought my EX3, the 32 gigabyte cards weren't available and so I bought a PHU-60K which I use with great frequency. So far, (knock wood) it has performed well with only a failure of the tiny cable connector at the drive. Sony replaced the drive in that case and there wasn't any loss of video. I will be buying two 32 gigabyte SXS Pro cards though as I like the more robust recording format vs hard drives and for hand-held, having the PHU-60K sticking out on the cold shoe makes me nervous.

I also vote for less expensive SXS cards.

I have recorded over 1,500 hrs on 6 SxS cards w/o a single problem.

I have used the PHU-60 about 200 hrs w/o a single problem.

I have used M&R SD setup for about 50 hrs (I don't trust it as much) w/o a single problem, "spare tire" is how I use them.

I have used Delkin 64GB CFcards and Sandisk CFcards in my NanoFlash for about 300 hrs w/o a single problem.

In the tape days I had a major problem about every 500 hrs either bad tape stock or clogged heads or transport/loading mechanism with lost footage. I used to spend 10G/yr on deck and cam repairs.

Now shooting primarily with XDcam my only expenses are cleaning and lots of HD's/BluRay Discs. I still use BetaSP, DVcam and DVCpro tape for delivery sometimes, but those are studio decks more rugged than cams.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread, and plenty of different approaches to data wrangling and risk managment. With that said, I personally have no concerns that I will screw something up when offloading to the MS240, or that one of my SxS cards will fail on me. I am 100% comfortable with my workflow and don't feel there is any advantage to backup recording to a Nano or jumping through other hoops. KISS.

Hello Doug,
I understand completely the way your work-flow is and I trust you wouldn't make a mistake. Comon, how many years are behind you doing that kind of work!?!
On other note, do you really would take the NF as a backup unit?
Luben

Hello Doug,
I understand completely the way your work-flow is and I trust you wouldn't make a mistake. Comon, how many years are behind you doing that kind of work!?!
On other note, do you really would take the NF as a backup unit?
Luben

Hi Luben,

I'm not sure I understand your question, but if you're asking if I would use the Nanoflash as a back up unit, the answer is never. Why bother? I've been shooting on XDCAM optical discs for over four years and SxS cards for almost three years, and I've never had a single problem with any clip, any disc, or any card. Recording abackup copy at the time of shooting is totally unnecesary. Even though I do own a Nano, I'd never waste my time setting it up as a backup recorder.

I think it is important for me to make this point so people who are thinking of buying an XDCAM EX camcorder aren't left with the impression that it is a risky format to shoot on or requires extra equipment. As others have already said, it is 1000 times better than tape!!! It used to be that I couldn't go for 6 months without having some sort of Betacam failure with the tape or the camcorder itself. And that was despite spending hundreds of dollars every year on preventative maintenance and cleanings. I have not spent a dime on repairs or maintenance in four years, nor suffered the embarrassement or loss of income from an equipmen breakdown, since I switched to XDCAM. I feel totally secure with recording on SxS, transfering to the MS240, erasing the card, and shooting on it again immediately. It's too simple for me to screw up, even though I am perfectly capable of screwing other things up.

Hi Luben,

I'm not sure I understand your question, but if you're asking if I would use the Nanoflash as a back up unit, the answer is never. Why bother?

I suppose I should clarify some of my statements. I do not view the nanoFlash as a back up unit. For me it is an enhancement to the already stellar quality of the EX1/3. And I did not mean to imply or give the impression that there is any reliability question regarding the camera.

I come from an engineering background where redundancies and factors of safety are not an option but due to risk of loss of human life, it is a necessity. So in every situation I always look for enhancements to safety first. One of the benefits of using the nanoFlash or the AJA or any other redundant acquisition system is another level of security.

Doug, you seem to feel that setting up a second system is a waste of time and a hassle. That is your opinion and for you that is correct. But, at the same time you seem to think that the extra expense of using SxS cards over SDHC is a "wise" decision. Why? Because that is a level of comfort you are willing to pay for. But there are many XDCAM EX users out there that would argue that you're needlessly throwing money away. For them, they don't feel that covering the risk offsets the added cost. It is definitely a personal choice.

Like I have been told several times, the guy who buys meteor insurance looks like a fool until his house is hit by a meteor.

The OP was asking prince no object how to create the most reliability. For me the formula is to build in redundancies and remove the possibility of human error especially under rushed pressure situations.

As in most cases this is just my opinion which is often subject to bouts of craziness.

Garrett

I think if the truth be known then almost all SDHC card users would prefer to use SXS cards, but at $525 or £365 per 16gb card, for a 32gb card then expect to pay $747 or £525. Sony have overpriced this option for many users. Then again they are no worse than the rest of the IT industry, it cost's me £200 to replace four toner cartridges for my colour laser printer, yet I can buy the same new printer complete with four cartridges for £175.

I must look into the MS240 drive, I must have missed this bit of kit at some stage I was not aware of it before this thread.

If I had no money problems I would buy 6 or more 32GB SXS cards.

Although I also have the MxM & ATP combo I record on my SxS cards first then fall back to the MxM setup.

Mark,
If I was in your shoes, I'd buy a couple of genuine 32GB SxS cards and a PXU-MS240. This way, you avoid all the hassles and/or risks of other solutions.

Yes, leaning to this solution, looking at 2x EX1R so MS240 could do double duty up to 11 hrs capacity at least initially and eSATA will be installed in Macpros for external RAID box so good transfer speeds. Actually I could also offload onto macbookpro as I go via usb2 if need be.

Not keen on the paraphernalia required for external HD or NF hook-ups, about the only real justification for NF is clean green-screen, but with competent lighting 35mbps 'good enough' I suspect.

As for redundancy - interesting, when I can I do on CF with Z5P, but for long-form I don't have luxury and trust the HDV tape transport. I feel going with the 'recommended' Sony SxS I should not have to worry. Sony make it very clear in both marketing and manuals that anything less than SxS media is a 'second-tier' solution that is not as reliable. I take heed.

Thanks to all respondents for sharing their workflow experiences.

If I had no money problems I would buy 6 or more 32GB SXS cards.


This is where the Nanoflash would make sense. The cost of 6 SxS cards would cover the Nano, CF cards and a redundant in-camera SHDC setup. You would get the benefit of higher bitrate 4:2:2 and have a backup that could be running and stay in the camera until you ever (hopefully not) needed it.

There are multiple approaches that depend upon the desired output. I agree, most users would use SxS if it were not cost prohibitive for longer record times.

Couple Qs:

Can the PXU-MS240 read the MEAD-SD01 Sony SDHC adaptor?

Can EX record to both ExpressCard slots (MEAD-SD01) at the same time for redundancy?

Mark,

I don't know the answer to the first question because there is no way I'll be shooting anything with a MEAD-SD0 -- therefore I don't have one to test. My guess is that it would work just fine, but that's just a guess.

The answer to the second question is no. You cannot record to both SxS slots at the same time no matter what kind of card you are using. Nor is there any reason to do that even if you could. If you use genuine SxS cards, you don't need to record a simultaneous backup.

In case you are wondering, the same "limitation" applies to the two slots of the Nanoflash. Only one can be used a time.

The bit I don't quite get is that I read several people saying that SDHC cards are unreliable, compared to SXS cards. I can accept that. Then in the same breath I am being told the Nano Flash is the way to go. Surely this also relies on memory cards albeit CF cards.


I was thinking along those lines too Vincent, what makes these CF cards more reliable?

I am not sure on the answer to this one, only that people are saying CF cards are more reliable. Personally I have never had any problems with SDHC or CF cards. Plenty of problems with tape though.