Hello All-
I just received a NanoFlash rental unit in the mail today to use for high quality capture at a medical conference we are producing next week. Needless to say, I am very excited to be using this little wonder of a device. Unfortunately, we just found out the production switcher we are using to send the video feed to the NanoFlash via DVI w/ mini HDMI converter only sends 720p60 or 1080p24. Since we need smooth motion and not a film look, I am forced to capture only at 720p60 (MXF). Budget is set with the client and it is too costly to add gear that would enable us to send the NanoFlash 1080i60 instead.

So, here is my main issue - I have two Delkin 64GB cards at my disposal (total of 128gb) for the event and might have a timing problem of when to dump the cards depending on the data rate I use to capture.

Basically, the medical conference runs from 7am - 9am with a 30 min break and then 9:30-12pm with an 1hour long break. It then picks up at 1pm -3pm with a 30 min break and then 3:30-6pm and is then finished. So basically I have have 2 hour recording increments and 2.5 hour recording increments. I don't have the luxury of a Nexto device and will probably be using the included USB 2.0 reader to dump the data off of the cards either on the breaks or at lunch. I do have a firewire 800 reader and a pcmcia firewire 800 card for my PC (win xp) laptop but the pcmcia card is pretty suspect these days for some reason.

I will be cutting in Vegas 8.0c after the event and would love to use 100Mbps as a Data Rate since it is the "sweet spot" so to speak even though I will only be recording now in 720p60. However, according to the chart (Media | nanoFlash | Video Recorders and Converters (http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/nanoFlash/Media/tabid/1653/Default.aspx)) I just don't see how I can make that work based on my time schedule and the fact that it is going to take FOREVER to copy off 128gb of data on the USB 2.0 device if I have to try and dump both cards at the same time.

I guess I am open to suggestion by anyone of whether I really need to record at 100Mbps and how to try and time which cards to use (whether together at the same time or separately and dump one off while the other is recording)? Wish I could still record at 1080 but I will plan better for the appropriate gear production gear next year.

Also, since I am now recording at a lower resolution 720p vs 1080p, will I actually get more recording time per card and per data rate than what is shown in the chart on your CD website? I assume the chart is for 1080 recording instead of 720 recording or is data rate data rate any way you cut it?

Thanks for any advice from those who are a bit more experienced with tapeless CF capture than myself!

PS> For what it is worth, the medical conference feed will contain HD Satellite Feeds for Live Medical Cases, HD Camera Feeds, Presenter Laptop Content, etc so there probably won't be any fast motion or anything. I don't have to do 720p60. I can send another 720p flavor from the production switcher if anyone thinks that would be better for cutting in Vegas 8.0c?

PPS> And, if I am recording at 720p do I have to have the Progressive Recording Box Checked on the NF?

Thanks Again!
Nathan Mitchiner

Hi Nathan,

If you have the camera and the nanoFlash at your disposal this weekend, why not do test record. Fill up the cards and do a transfer to your laptop with both the USB and the FW device to see if you can do a transfer within the 30 minute breaks you have.

If it were me I would back down the bitrate so you have some wiggle room in terms of time and room on the cards should things bleed over. You don't want to go below 50Mbit as you will loose 422 color. Shooting 720p60 gives you lots of flexibility with conversion.

BTW, I was surprised at how fast the transfer was using the USB 2.0 card reader that came with the nanoFlash I got. I was expecting it to be much slower.

-Andrew

Nathan,

I would not stress over the 1080 vs 720 situation. The most important fact is how are you delivering the final product?

In my work and testing, 1080i and 720p are visually pretty much the same viewing on a 1080p plasma television over blu-ray. 1080p (P not "i") has a bit more detail, but I would venture to say not enough to go crazy over in a home viewing environment. If you are going to a larger projection screen then 1080p would be the best option for all the resolution you can get.

Test, test, test. Find out this information for yourself with first hand knowledge and then you can make the judgement call. Shoot a little in every format and bitrate then put that footage on a Blu-ray or DVD and compare.

As far as your time constraints, use the 35mbps or 50mbps option to maximize your record time. Would your client rather have all of the footage at 35/50mbps or maybe some left out at 100mbps because of the limited card space? 50mbps looks very good and 35mbps will be fine as well.

I think 720p60 is a great and versitile format which I use the most out of all the choices.

Hi Nathan:
There are several ways you can go here. I do not use Sony Vegas, so I am not 100 % positive as to what are the file incompatibilities present with this editing application. I use Avid Media Composer as my primary post production application, along with FCP as my secondary backup. To conserve CF card storage space, I would consider the following possible settings......

1. Long GOP @ 50 Mbps data rate with .MXF file extension.
2. I-Frame @ 50 Mbps data rate with .MXF setting.
3. Long GOP @ 50 Mbps data rate with Quicktime .MOV setting (QT)
4. I-Frame @ 50 Mbps data rate with Quicktime .MOV (QT)

Hi Nathan,
Given your situation, I'd either bring in a couple more memory cards or go directly to 50Mbps MXF recording. As far as I know, a data rate is just that - the rate at which the data goes onto the card - and it's 'per second' so frame rate and resolution have no effect on the speed at which you're capturing data (unless doing slow motion?)
Anyhow, 50Mbps MXF LongGOP is still a very nice looking codec - it's the same one used by the Sony 700/800 XDcamHD 422 cameras.
But I'd still recommend getting one more card -- There are areas on the schedule that would stretch the 142 minute record time for a 64GB card - and the Nano does not take well to hot swapping cards, so if you're transferring your other card, you'd have to stop recording to switch once that transfer is done -- something you may not want to do during those extended periods. A third card - even if only a 32GB one - would buy you a little breathing room, and I think you really need it.
One thing about your transfers, it's always better if you can double transfer - to two hard drives or one external and one internal. Definitely bring fast drives for the transfers, and be organized -- set up the transfer station long before you need it. And do a test ahead of time to make sure that the card reader that was sent with the Nano has full speed support -- depending on the rental house they could easily throw a slow CF reader into the box, and you'd be up a creek waiting for the transfer to finish.

Hello Nathan,
Long GOP 50Mbps is a very nice codec, you would like it, especially when you have only 2 CF cards at 64 Gb each for the whole day of shooting. Also, for your Sony Vegas I believe you need to shot MXF not QT (ProRes422 files is fine for viewing. They will be able to be read, but, Vegas just can't give you ProRes422 files back because Apple forbids it for PC). Someone with Vegas could confirm that. Anyone please!

Please do some test with the 720p as requirements and do some testing of the transfer of the cards. The card reader from CD is fine, but , it is the recording unit that determs the time of the transfer from CF card to the drive or a other CF Drive. On location with my travel SonyVaio I use this configuration for transfers - 500GB OWC Mercury On-The-Go Portable FW80... (MS8U7500GB16) at OWC (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MS8U7500GB16/)
It has 400/800 firewire and USB all bus powered to 500Gb fast 7200RPM HDD. Cheap, fast and easy. Great pocket unit. Of course, format DOS (FAT32) for reading/writhing compatibility MAC and PC.
Good luck
Luben

P.S.
If you were somewhere near I could lend you some cards....

With tapeless workflow the pressure is enormous when you have to dump and delete original material against the clock. Surely the budget can stand a few more cards, as the expenditure is peanuts compared to the cost of something going wrong.

With the Nano you can record 720p30 out of the 720p60 from the switcher.
That at 50Mbps will gives you an outstanding picture and without the choppiness of the p24.
rafael

Dear Nathan,

You have, in my opinion, been given lots of good advice.

First, 720p60 can look very nice. 50 Mbps 4:2:2 is a great codec choice for this shoot.

As Dave stated, 50 Mbps gives you a certain amount of recording time, and it will be the same for 1080 or 720p.

With two 64 GB cards, you get approximately 5.3 hours of continuous recording time at 50 Mbps.

However, your hour-long lunch break is not adequate to upload 128 GB's of data, in my opinion.

You may get by, by uploading the two-hour segments in 30 minutes during the break, then re-formatting the cards. And you may get by, by uploading the 2.5 hour segment in the 60 minute break.

However, I would not risk it if I had another way. At the very least you should test the upload times before the event.

...The USB 2.0 Card Reader that we supply is the fastest USB card reader that we can find.
...Uploading to a computer depends on the speed of the card reader and the I/O throughput of the computer.

...A Firewire 800 CompactFlash card reader would be faster, but may or may not speed up the transfer, it depends on your computer.

…It is a shame that your PCMCIA is acting up, preventing you from using your Firewire 800 Card Reader.
...................PCMCIA = People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms (Grin)

...Record a test this weekend, at 50 Mbps, fill up the cards, then see how long it takes to upload with your computer. Or record two hours, then upload, then 2.5 hours, then upload.

...Please expect the sessions to go longer than scheduled, and your breaks to be shortened.

...I highly recommend that you make it easy on yourself and purchase or rent two more 64 GB CompactFlash cards. I recommend Delkin.

Note: For your event, you can also choose to use 35 Mbps (at 4:2:0). Your customers will probably not notice the difference. This gives you about 7 hours of recording time. Unless you have a great way of delivering the footage, it will probably be delivered at 4:2:0.

How are you going to deliver the content?

Personally, I am concerned about the signal source. Why is a video switcher sending out DVI?

Have you tested the nanoFlash with this switcher?

There are multiple potential pitfalls here:

1. The switcher is not a synchronous switcher, one that does not produce a glitch in the output.
If there is a glitch, the nanoFlash will stop recording until we can re-sync to the new video stream.

2. Why DVI? Is the switcher going to put out a real video signal, or a signal intended for a computer type monitor? The nanoFlash expects and demands a real video signal, not a computer monitor type signal.

This may be a moot point, as you have stated that the switcher puts out 720p60 or 1080p24. This is rather suspicious in itself. What brand/model switcher are you using?

Since you are going to use Vegas 8.0(c), you will need to use MXF, Long-GOP, not I-Frame Only. This is another moot point, since you will need to be recording at 50 Mbps or 35 Mbps, neither of which is available in I-Frame Only.

At the very least, you need to run a test, hopefully with the switcher included (and actually switching between sources). This test must include loading the footage into your editor and checking the footage.

How are you going to record the laptop presentations? If at all possible, get a copy of each laptop presentation and edit it in in Post.

For 720p, you do not need to set the Record PSF>Prog(ressive) option. 720p does not use PSF (Progressive Segmented Frames).

Please send me a private message. I will reply with all of my phone numbers. I will do my best to help.

Since you are going to use Vegas 8.0(c), you will need to use MXF, Long-GOP, not I-Frame Only. This is another moot point, since you will need to be recording at 50 Mbps or 35 Mbps, neither of which is available in I-Frame Only.

If I may suggest something on this point, you could download the (fully functional) 30-day trial of Vegas 9.0e, which handles I-Frame only files perfectly.

Hope this helps.

Piotr

If I may suggest something on this point, you could download the (fully functional) 30-day trial of Vegas 9.0e, which handles I-Frame only files perfectly.

Hope this helps.

PiotrHi Piotr: Yeah I thought Vegas *did in fact* handle I-Frame as well as Long GOP, but he said Vegas 8.x, so maybe that version doesn't do it. (??) Also, Dan, is it possible to add a 50 Mbps data rate setting for I-Frame recording ? I did not realize you cannot set the I-Frame data rate this low (Current lowest possible setting is 100 Mbps actually). I am assuming this is also true for the Nano Flash as well.

Dear Mark,

At lower bit rates, I-Frame Only is far less efficient than Long-GOP.

We do not feel that 50 Mbps I-Frame Only would acceptable quality.

The bit-rates/flavors are the same for the Flash XDR and nanoFlash.

At 140 Mbps and above, the actual image quality of the Long-GOP and I-Frame Only are about the same.

Hi Dan:
Oh ? OK. I haven't seen I-Frame @ 50 Mbps and assumed it looked as good as the Sony XDCAM HD 4:2:2 codec did at Long GOP 50 Mbps.

How are you going to record the laptop presentations? If at all possible, get a copy of each laptop presentation and edit it in in Post.

Nathan, if you have to do the presentations "in camera" try to get a white balance of one of the projected presentations prior to the start. You generally have to dial in the white balance as opposed to finding a white spot. If you rely on the room white balance for the presentation portions of the event, your colors will most likely be way off when the projected presentations begin.

...I highly recommend that you make it easy on yourself and purchase or rent two more 64 GB CompactFlash cards.

My recommendation as well. You have to go into your job properly equipped. Even source 4 x 32Gb CF cards if you cannot get hold of 64Gb cards.

You can then spend the day concentrating on the job at hand - recording the conference at the data rate you want to.

Best wishes

Hi Piotr: Yeah I thought Vegas *did in fact* handle I-Frame as well as Long GOP, but he said Vegas 8.x, so maybe that version doesn't do it. (??) Also, Dan, is it possible to add a 50 Mbps data rate setting for I-Frame recording ? I did not realize you cannot set the I-Frame data rate this low (Current lowest possible setting is 100 Mbps actually). I am assuming this is also true for the Nano Flash as well.

Exactly Mark, I-Frame only clips suffered from intermittent black frames in Vegas Pro 8.0 and up to version 9.0c. In 9.0d and e, this has been fixed - so for this particular purpose, the OP might just use the trial if he's not prepare to upgrade his 8.0 to 9.0 yet.

Every corner and option has been explored here in this thread, dvinfo is really something - I'm with the "get more CF cards" crowd: Transcend 400X Extreme 64GB for $237+vat - that's peanuts more or less. I'm using them and thread I started is at
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/convergent-design-nanoflash/478254-transcend-64gb-any-good.html

$200 at Amazon
Amazon.com: Transcend 400X - 64 GB Compact Flash Memory Card TS64GCF400 (Blue): Electronics


/magnus

WOW, let me first thank each and every one of you for the influx of advice and how quickly it came in. Certainly says a lot about this forum and the quality of people and advice that are here.

I have been pretty tied up this weekend with final prep so sorry for the delay in getting back to everyone as the original poster. So, here is some more information, more decisions, and some more questions after reading everyone's posts -

- I will go with 720p60 50mbs long gop MXF

- IVegas 9.0e seems definitely worth checking out

- We are using a Barco Screen Pro switcher that is being fed from a Barco MatrixPro HD-SDI Matrix Router. The entire signal path (cameras, satellite feeds, computers, etc.) is converted to SMTPE-292 1080i HD before it gets to us. We have the production aspect of this very solid and locked in at this point and are working with a very experienced medical production crew as well. So no need to really get derailed by that aspect I suppose.

- For what it is worth, our Barco Screen Pro only has DVI-I program outs (we just don't have the adapter for HD-SDI that does 1080i on our unit) which is why we have to go 720p. We have already successfully tested the NanoFlash with the Screen Pro and have used the DVI-I program out via an DVI-HDMI adapter (all digital) to run a full size HDMI to mini size HDMI cable into the NanoFlash. There are no glitches possible while switching between sources because it is a dual channel scaling switcher that allows the output to maintain continuous sync during switching.

- Budget is set (unfortunately) from the client so all I really have at my disposal are the 2 Delkin 64gb cards and 2 - SanDisk Extreme IV 4GB cards from the Roscor rental house. However, I have done and am continuing to do some extensive testing this weekend. I have transferred from the CF USB card reader a full Delkin 64gb card in 43 minutes to my external drive twice to ensure consistancy. Though things could always be faster, things could always be slower as well. I have re-confirmed the three day schedule with my client and here it is -

7:00am - 9:20am - 140 mins
break
9:40am - 12:00pm - 140 mins
lunch
1:00pm - 3:20pm - 140 mins
break
3:40pm - 6:00pm - 140 mins

So, my plan now is to have a 64gb card in slot one and a 4gb card in slot two and record the morning session until the break. This should give me roughly 170 mins of recording time (i will be testing that this weekend) which should allow 30 extra mins for any run overs or early starts though I know I am cutting it close. Then, during the 20 min morning break, I will place a the other empty 64gb and 4gb cards into the NanoFlash to start recording the late morning session up until lunch. While that is recording, I can confidently transfer the 64gb and 4gb from the early morning session and be ready to start dumping the other 2 late morning session cards during lunch. Those cards won't even be needed until after the break in the afternoon. On paper (famous last words) and based on some initial tests, it all seems like this workflow should work. However, I am not adverse to picking up maybe another CF Card or two at a brick and mortor store here in town just in case I need to use it for some reason and if not, I can just return them unopened when I get back.

[ASIDE:] Oh, and thanks Luben Izov for the kind words and offer for the loans. Wish you were closer as well ;-)
[ASIDE:] And thanks Magnus Helander as well for the link to the significantly cheaper transcend cards. Will definitely keep those in mind for next time. My event starts Wednesday AM and I don't have time to order anything now since tomorrow is a US holiday.

Here are some general questions I have now (though I suspect these questions fall into the hot swappable functionality that is coming down the road):

1) Can I eject a CF card from Slot 1 in the NanoFlash while the NanoFlash is clearly starting to record on a Card in Slot 2?

2) Can I add a CF card to an empty Slot 2 while the NanoFlash is recording content in Slot 1?


Dan, I will also PM you just in case you still have some questions or concerns.

And please, I am still open to suggestions and advice since this is my first event with the NanoFlash. Thanks again everyone. I really really appreciate it and can't wait to use the NF in a live production. Everyone enjoy your weekend and Memorial holiday tomorrow if you are in the States.

Cheers!
Nathan

Dear Nathan,

It seems like you have a solid plan.

Of course, I like to be very well prepared for any problems, thus I would like for you to have additional cards.

The 4 GB cards provide approximately 10 minutes of footage at 50 Mbps. I stress "approximately", you can easily confirm this value. A 32 GB card provides approximately 80 minutes.

You seem to be ok, based on your calculations and testing, provided everything goes right.

It would certainly be nice if you have more 64 GB cards, or even 32 GB cards. If you are buying locally, just be certain that you use qualified cards.

Sorry, but the the answers to your questions 1 and 2 are no. You can not do either, and if you do, the nanoFlash will lock up, as this is unsupported at this time.

I am assuming that your production will be in Raleigh. I would love to help you with some cards, but I do not know how to get the cards to you in time.

Hi Nathan - mate you are making a rod for your back by going down this route. You will almost certainly come to grief. You need at a minimum 2 more 64GB cards IMO. That way at your first break you can be downloading your first full card. At 50 Mb/s you use approximately 375MB per minute - so on 64Gig card you will fit approximately 160 minutes on the card (remember they measure space on these cards in decimal rather than real megabytes). 20 minutes seems like plenty of overhead so you may well fit 1 session per card which give you another whole session to dump off the nearly full card.

But remember these are your only copies of the media (unless you are backing up to another system - always wise). So when are you going to check your transfer? Are you going to copy it to a mirrored raid? What happens when something goes wrong and your attention is diverted elsewhere?

I reckon for these once only live events you need enough media to cover the days shoot. You can still be transferring media off during the day but at least you still have your originals until you get time to check and backup your media at the end of the day.

The good news is these cards are expensive to begin with but they withstand multiple re-writes and you could probably sell them on eBay at the end of the shoot for not much less than you paid for them.

I do copy off and erase cards on shoots but I use a Nexto with verify and dual record to SD cards on my camera @ 35Mb/s so I'm covered.

Just my $0.02 worth..

cheers and good luck..

Figured I would post a follow up to the event. My first experience with the NanoFlash was a great success. I ended up picking up a couple extra CF cards and all was good. I will try to post pictures at some point.

We sent the program out from our video switcher DVI-HDMI into the NanoFlash at 720p60 with a 50mb data rate and used MXF Long GOP with Analog In audio via the stereo mini port. I have previewed all 223 files with the Sony MXF Viewer and the audio and video quality is GREAT.

I have one small but LARGE problem now. I have a clean install of Vegas 9.0e on my laptop and Vegas 8.0c on my desktop and neither one of them display the audio track when I import the MXF files. Vegas reports that there is 48khz 24bit audio there but doesn't decode it correctly so consequently the audio track is muted. I have "rebuilt peaks" several times and even erased the "sfk" audio preview files and tried reimporting. Still nothing. A complete no go for both 8.0c and 9.0e. Vegas 9.0e also introduces the single green frame at the beginning of each 3.5gb clip.

So, anyone have any suggestions on how to get either version of Vegas to interpret the audio correctly? Now, my install of Rhozet Carbon Coder reads the MXF files perfectly and I can make proxies or render them to another format very easily. Vegas can then read the audio and video of the newly transcoded files perfectly fine. However, having to transcode into something other than the original MXF files is not really ideal and I shouldn't have to spend the time or hard drive space to do that. I am open to all suggestions and can even post samples if need be. Could it be something with the 720p60 format that I used that is causing a goof up?

Thanks ahead of time!

Oh, and for what it is worth, the 50mbit 1080i60 sample LongGOP file here works perfectly fine in both Vegas versions in terms of audio and video -

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/convergent-design-nanoflash/466831-more-preview-mxf-sample-files-xdcam-optical-compatibility.html

So, I am definitely confused.

Dear Nathan,

If you send us a sample file, then we can test it.

I will try to send you an email with the upload details.

Dear Nathan,

I have sent you a private message with file upload instructions.

Dear Nathan,

Here is a direct link to the Sony XDCam Viewer Software:

Use this link to download and install the Sony XDCam Viewer Software (Plays all XDCam MXF Files, including our MXF files)

https://servicesplus.us.sony.biz/sony-software.aspx?model=PDZ-VX10

Please download and install the above, then use it to play one of your files. You should be able to hear your audio.

I have sent you all of my phone numbers.

Dear Nathan,

We have sent you a private message, but I am discussing it here for the benefit of others.

We tested the file that you uploaded for us.

We determined that the file was recorded at 720p60 (True 60 frames per second, not 720p59.94 as is the more typical video standard).

We were able to play the video / audio in Sony XDCAM Viewer, Edius 5, and Premiere CS4 (w/ MainConcept plug-in), but Vegas only plays video.

Evidently Vegas has limited support for true frame rates.

We did not test Final Cut Pro. Sony provides a free Plug-In for Final Cut Pro that allows MXF files to be converted to Quicktime (".MXF") files. However, we do not know if this Plug-In works with 720p60 (True) files or not.

So, there are solutions to your problems, just that Sony Vegas is not currently one that plays/edits 720p60 (True) audio at this time.

Please let us know how we may help you.

Hi Nathan:
Avid Media Composer will edit true 720 p 60 clips with .MXF file extension @ 50 Mbps without issue (Sound included).