I'm considering getting one of the iRiver H10's -- and from what I've read from the numerous threads - the iRiver is not just reliable, but incredibly beneficial when getting audio from a groom or officiant.

Two questions actually.

Upon looking at the iRiver at (I think) newegg.com - I did not see a microphone input. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong iRiver model, but I thought I read where folks were using the H10 with a mic -- can anyone verify this?

Secondly, has anyone had any problems synching the audio into a NLE? I'm currently using Sony Vegas 6.0 and I wanted to mitigate any potential problems ahead of time.

Thanks in advance!
-Michael

I do not believe that the H10 has a line input built in. As I understand it, you must purchase the cradle to do any line-in recording (and the cradle adds bulk and complexity). I have seen photos of the 320, and it looked like it had a line-in jack on the bottom.

If you are capable of audio synch using waveforms or just by listening, then synching iRiver sources is simple and straightforward.

Bear in mind that the iRiver does not record a drop-frame stream, so long sections of audio will gradually fall out of synch with a DV stream, two-frames at a time. The solution is to trim your iRiver source by a two frames every few minutes, or when you see it drift. I believe that Vegas also has ctrl+click+drag feature that allows you to snap your audio to fit the length of your video...might want to check with Glen on that one.

Technically, drop frame "drops" 2 frames from the DV stream for every minute of time code, except for every tenth minute. This is of course to allow for the completely off-the-wall NTSC 29.97 standard framerate.

Anyway, I have not found iRiver audio synch to be a problem in my editing.

I would suggest the 700 series of iRivers. By far the most people have had consistant success with those, myself included. The H10 also looks to be a bit bigger, the 700's are VERY easy to slip into a groom/officiants coat pocket or wherever, and not be weighty and bulky. People will have less problems with these than even a wireless transmitter being mounted on them. I have used mine many times now, for two weddings and several non-wedding video projects, and have had zero reliability issues, and synching is no real trouble at all. I have (several times now) synched up three iRiver feeds layered on top of each other, and within about 10 minutes have them just right...you just pick a nice spot with an obvious standout moment, and set them all to that, and as Matt said, check your sych for drift on long runs. And make sure to set your record gain low enough to not spike....40-45 is good. I generally use 40 and then normalize in post.

...
Bear in mind that the iRiver does not record a drop-frame stream, so long sections of audio will gradually fall out of synch with a DV stream, two-frames at a time.
...
Technically, drop frame "drops" 2 frames from the DV stream for every minute of time code, except for every tenth minute. This is of course to allow for the completely off-the-wall NTSC 29.97 standard framerate.


I have to correct you here. "Drop frame" does NOT actually DROP any video frames from the data stream. What it does is SKIP the first 2 numbers in the sequence once a minute. Those frames themselves are still there, just the numbers assigned to them are rejiggered. Most of the time as one second goes into the next the frames are numbered in sequence:
...27.28.29.1.2.3.4...
but once a minute the 1 and 2 are skipped and the frame that comes immediately after the 29th frame is instead numbered "3" so the sequence that time the sequence becomes:
...27.28.29.3.4.5.6...
The frames that would otherwise have been numbered 1 & 2 are still there, just with new numbers.

Forgive me if this is just a stupid question, but Matt's reply made me think of something: am I limited by what frame rate the camera records at when using an iRiver for an audio source??

Daniel -- thanks for the suggestion - I'm on my way now to check out the 700 series!

Thanks again!
-Michael

Your welcome! Frame rate isnt the issue, its the bitrate. DV is 48,000 and the iRiver is 44.1. It's no biggie though. I've never had any problem at all keeping it synched.

Even at 60i, 24p and 29.7??

Okay - I'm convinced... (running out to Circuit City tomorrow!!) :)

Thanks again Daniel!!

Some of the HD models do come with mic input(actually, they include a mic)
I use 700 series iRivers because of small physical size. With the mono adapter I made or one of the custom made for iRver mics you get lots of record time.(upto 15 hours with 1g at max quality)
I convert the iRiver file to 48k then import into the NLE project so that the audios all match.Never had a sync problem.For non wedding ceremony stuff I do use a clapper to sync all the audio and video

Yessir, go get it! Framerate matters not, it's all still "per second". And make dang sure you pick up some mono Giant Squid Audio Labs (google it) iRiver modified lav mics to get the best sounding recordings for your $. They are cheap and seriously awesome.

Jack, what do you use to convert them to 48,000? I've never thought of that...it's always easy to overlook the obvious! I suppose I'll dig around in SoundForge....surely it will do it.

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Jack, what do you use to convert them to 48,000? I've never thought of that...it's always easy to overlook the obvious! I suppose I'll dig around in SoundForge....surely it will do it.

When you import the 44.1 audio file or first thing after importing it, tell the software to resample it to 48k. Usually when you import you usually have a choice of preserving the original sampling frequency or resampling to the project rate. Resampling up doesn't lower the quality. Resampling down will.

The iRiver audio will drift over time. If your just matching the iRiver up with video you might not notice it but if you sync it along with camera aquired audio you'll find that, over time, the iRiver will start to drift. Nothing an easy nip and tuck can't fix though. Audio is much easier to sync than video. If your listening to two tracks and you hear an echo...it's not synced. Should sound, seamlessly, like one source. If your synced and your iriver and camera audio sound like a perfect harmonious single source but over time notice an echo developing...you know what happened.

The iRiver audio will drift over time. If your just matching the iRiver up with video you might not notice it but if you sync it along with camera aquired audio you'll find that, over time, the iRiver will start to drift. Nothing an easy nip and tuck can't fix though. Audio is much easier to sync than video. If your listening to two tracks and you hear an echo...it's not synced. Should sound, seamlessly, like one source. If your synced and your iriver and camera audio sound like a perfect harmonious single source but over time notice an echo developing...you know what happened.

If you resample to 48kHz you'll find less drift. The project clock is running on samples at a rate of 48k per second and that's the rate the video expects in its matching audio. Without resampling, the 44k samples in what was one second of audio are played back at the project's sample rate and so when played at a rate of 48 samples per second, what was originally 1 second of audio will play back in 44/48 of a second. If resampled, the 44 samples are turned into 48 and what was recorded in 1 second will now play back in 1 second.

The title says it all. For you videographers who are using the iRiver recorders have you abandoned wireless lavs?

It certainly appears that cost-wise it's considerably cheaper than using good-quality lavs and besides, if a lav goes down, who's going to jump up in front of the guests and put another one on the groom in the middle of the ceremony? It appears iRivers are a suitable substitute. Would that be accurate?

Thanks,


ian

Gents

Would appreciate some help here since the range of models on BH seems endless - I would really appreciate a pointer in the right direction as to which model you guys refer to:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&shs=iriver

Daniel, I would assume you are referring the iRiver mike on the following page at Giant Squid:
http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-mono1.htm#info1

We in SA don't have luxury of you guys in the states :)

Many thanks

Jeremy,

Thanks a lot of the link for the Omnidirectional Mono microphone. I have read and re-read the first line of that link:

"The Iriver recorder requires a mono microphone to have a certain type of mono plug in order to record in the mono mode. If the Iriver detects a stereo plug it will automatically switch to stereo mode."

Why would a mono mike would be preferred over a stereo mike?

Thanks a bunch for everyone who has commented in this thread - I've learned a lot!

-Michael

I will also go for iriver with darren's modified mono mic. anyone have done importing the mp3 sampled to 48khz?

Daniel, I use Sound Forge.Load the file in set levels and do any adjustments then convert to 48k 16bit stereo.
Glen guess I've been lucky as I have recorded 1 hour shoots and not had it drift yet.Thats slating the head and tail .Not tried more than 1 hour though.
Ian , no have not let go of wireless.Still use wireless in certain situations.eg. when the mic will be passed around amongst various vocals.Many other situations would call for the wireless but many the iRiver is my choice.
Jeremy, thing would be to decide how much you will need to record to the iRiver before you can upload to laptop or your suite.Then choose the one that fits.Based on highest quality settings and stereo mode 128mb = 54min
256mb=108min 512mb=216min 1gb=432min
if you use mono everthing is x2
Michael, actually I originally tested the iriver and found the solution to the mono problem.It isnt that it detects a stereo plug ,it uses the wrong channel for mono input.I made an adapter to switch channels and it works fine.The advantage is that it extends the recording time available and since in most cases ,you don't actually record stereo (merely 2 channels of the same thing)
mono is perfectly fine.
Leonardo, see the 1st line of this post

I like the idea of the iriver. But it has only a line-in input. How sensitiv is this one?
How do you connect your mic or what kind of mic. do you use?
What do you advise?

I like the idea of the iriver. But it has only a line-in input. How sensitiv is this one?
How do you connect your mic or what kind of mic. do you use?
What do you advise?
The input is switchable in the menu between line and mic sensitivity. As previous posts have suggested, use a Giant Squid lavalier at around 40-45 recording level for most situations you won't go wrong.

The input is switchable in the menu between line and mic sensitivity. As previous posts have suggested, use a Giant Squid lavalier at around 40-45 recording level for most situations you won't go wrong.

This sounds very interesting. I understand that i can use a professional mic as long it does not need phantom power of course. Am i right?

How about the Creative MP3 player/recorder line. Is the line-input also switchable in the same way? The advantage of the Creatives is their plug-and-play capacity and the fact that they can be used as a memory stick also.

The title says it all. For you videographers who are using the iRiver recorders have you abandoned wireless lavs?

It certainly appears that cost-wise it's considerably cheaper than using good-quality lavs and besides, if a lav goes down, who's going to jump up in front of the guests and put another one on the groom in the middle of the ceremony? It appears iRivers are a suitable substitute. Would that be accurate?

Thanks,


ian

but if the iRiver fails for any reason, you won't know until after the event

but if the iRiver fails for any reason, you won't know until after the event

True, but if that's the only benefit of wireless - that you know it's failed - there really is no difference. Whether you have an iRiver or a wireless lav on the groom it's not like you could go up and change it in the middle of the service. However, the iRivers appear to be considerably cheaper than a wireless lav so perhaps the purchase of an inexpensive wireless and a backup iRiver wrapped in a nice, little homemade package would be an option for those with the funds.

Thanks for all of the input folks.

sincerely,


ian

to Ian> "iRiver wrapped in a nice, little homemade package would be an option for those with the funds." what do you mean by little homemade package?

Hey Leonardo & everyone else,

Perhaps I mis-spoke.

When I said an iRiver & wireless lav in a "nice, little homemade package" I meant using the iRiver as a "backup" for the wireless lav if, indeed, the lav went down in the middle of the service.

I imagined a small, leatherette pouch lovingly handstitched by my mother that would hold both the iRiver and lav transmitter and would fit comfortably at the small of the groom's back or possibly an inside pocket of a tux jacket.

Anyway, lots of answers and always helpful.

sincerely,


ian