It put strong competitive pressure on market, mean lot more innovative products, prices. Is important for HDV content distribution.

Radek

I don't think that you will get many to agree with you!!!

What did the SACD vs DVD-Audio do?

Besides, it's not even the competition that will kill both formats. It's the fact that the industry decided to have any resolution above 480p to be only output through encrypted HDMI connection. So the millions of people (including myself) with earlier HDTV sets will be screwed.

The new players will output through analog component only 480p signal and no real HD. If that's really the case, I hope that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray die a horrible death. People don't like overprotected formats that are not possible to backup, SACD and DVD-Audio being perfect examples. At least with SACD and DVD-Audio you can have a player and listen to the originals anytime and anywhere, but with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray you won't even be able to view it in HD except on the latest HDMI enabled TV sets. Who needs a bullsh*t like that? Not me.

I think SD DVD is here to stay for a very long time. We will all be shooting and editing in HD, but still downconverting to 480/576 for distribution to the masses. Because the masses aren't likely to accept such crappy formats, which you can't backup nor view in most cases.

[QUOTE=Hse Kha]I don't think that you will get many to agree with you!!!QUOTE]


I am one who would not agree for sure!

Competition is great in many fields, like making automobiles, or any product, like a lamp, that you compete with on looks, size etc. but you plug the damn thing into a wall socket and it works. When it comes to electronics all you end up with is orphaned products and disillusioned consummers.

If you wish to build a great little gadget for yourself great! But, if you want to sell one to me, it better come from a universal standard that I can count on being around for a while.

That is why there are so many international standards and standard setting groups. It is absolutely necessary!

If they do not come to a compromise, all that will occur is chaos, and many more orphaned products. Anyone who has already bought one of the Sony Blue-ray players now, you are going to be sorely disappointed in the future.

Thanks all,

Mike

Only one format will survive as a movie medium... the other might hang on for video games or data storage...I am not sure that is a good thing.

The SACD - DVD Audio arguement is not really valid as it seems. Stop and consider... EVERY single major retailer is PUSHING HDTV hard. Even my local WalMarts have an HDTV section, the same was not true of SACD or DVD-A. Quite frankly, the public stated loud and clear that convenience, not quality was the driving force in audio when they opted for MP3 players IN MASS!

That being said...TRUE HDTV wont really take off for YEARS and I'm sorry but average joe public cannot see much, if any, difference from 1080i and 480P on movies shot on traditional film. When Hollywood moves everything to HD, the difference will be more pronounced.

The HD movement will come but it wont be next year... or the next... technology NEVER moves as fast as you think and even though there may be a new format/gadget/innovation on the horizon, that does not mean the public really wants it...




ash =o)

1. There is no "war."
2. HD-DVD is already referred to as a temporary solution, not much different than 720p. It has physical limitations that for the most part BD does not.
3. It's nothing at all like the VHS/Beta scenario of the past, because in the past, Sony didn't own most of the world's most desirable content, and they didn't already have broadcaster support for Beta. Sony owns most of the world's desirable content from the consumer side, and XDCAM already has broadcasters embracing the format.
HD-DVD is not an expandable format, no one is suggesting it would be. It's a stop-gap since BD is not an inexpensive nor immediately available replication format. On the other hand, (at the moment) BD can manage up to 110 GB of storage with access times of 72 Mbps. HD-DVD can't remotely come close to that. But....it will be here, at least for a little while.
But to refer to it as a "war" is a little silly.

The only thing that an actual war would do is hurt people who jumped in early on the "losing" technology. In the long run, a war would just push people toward home theater pc's so they could have one of each drive in the comp and be able to play anything. Unfortunately, HD-DVD will be put to rest before then...

Of course, as soon as they figure out which of these to use, HVDs will be cheap enough to start the process all over again... Oh, the never ending cycle of technology...

I have a 2002 model 43" Sony HDTV with only analog component inputs for HD. If HD-DVD and Blu-Ray won't output 720p and 1080i via analog I am screwed. Does anyone want an $1800 door stop? I've already seen that the DVD players on the market that upconvert SD to HD only output the upconversion via HDMI so I guess this is really going to happen. Thanks Hollywood!

Well, there's still the forthcoming chinese hd dvd or blu ray players coming... And they will probably support analog component out... I mean, current chinese DVD players play almost everything already!

"The new players will output through analog component only 480p signal and no real HD"

You got a source for that, or are you speculating?

I have been wondering, what about computers / home theater PC's? I mean,
at the moment we have software DVD playeres for a computer. I would assume
that similar programs will arrive for HD-DVD / blue-ray and will simply at whatever
resolution you've set the screen to.

If you set this at some high resolution on a video card that has DVI or
component out the problem may be fixed? It may even have un-encrypted
HDMI connectors.

On the plus side - Sony and Phillips DID agree on CD format!

HD copy protection does seem to be taking a strange turn of events. Here are some observations I have made (OK maybe some thoughts too!).

Many folks are using various techniques to make DVDs look really good on HD sets. Some DVDs look even better than SOME HD stuff I've seen. Many folks are quite happy with this, and are quite content NOT to pursue getting any REAL HD content.

Hollywood seems to be saying they'll reduce resolution for copy protected stuff. My guess is that the VAST MAJORITY of people will be quite happy looking at this using "whatever" to make SD look "pretty darn good"! If HD DVDs of ANY variety cost more than existing DVDs, people might be quite content just leaving them alone and buy the old fashioned DVD. I know I have been pretty pleased with some HDNet stuff I recorded on Panasonic DMR-HS2 via S-video. Sure it's not HD, but I'll be willing to bet MOST people couldn't tell the difference unless they had both side-by-side to compare.

So what will be the result? Will the vast majority use downresed outputs only to upres them for viewing? Will the few techies find a way around CP anyway? Those in the professional "pirating" business will certainly find a way! Could Hollywood succeed mostly in aggravating potential customers?

Besides - why not just define folder and file structure (and compression) for HD DVDs and let it go on anything - even hard drives (like DVDs do)? That would be easy and inexpensive. OH! Silly me! I forgot about CP!

It just might be like the owner of an expensive diamond implementing a complex protection system to foul prospective thieves - then wear a fake because it's too difficult to navigate the walls of protection.

I don't have any answers. But I think it's entirely possible for copy protection to thwart the very market Hollywood would like to develop.

DSE: I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Toshiba's HD DVD format or the battle which is brewing on how people will distribute and play HD video. Seems to me that the Toshiba format is quite adequate for most purposes and will have a big advantage if they get to market first with more affordable pricing than Sony's blu-ray, which they appear to be preparing to do. If I had to choose between a format that will available soon with inexpensive players, burners and discs, or one which ships later with much higher prices for everything, I'd favor the former for my purposes for now. Or like a lot of people I may decide to wait the whole thing out and just put HD video in compressed format on today's standard DVDs, which costs me almost nothing and can be played by customers today on any reasonably current computer or a $250 player with true HD component outputs. I think the whole HD DVD thing could turn out to be a flop for independent videographers given the more practical option available to us now, but we'll see what happens once customers have a choice about what they want to use.

I'm not at all dismissing the viability of the format of HD-DVD. The question is, what content will be available on HD-DVD? Not that much. With Sony owning so much of the world's content...that alone is a HUGE bit of leverage. Doesn't matter much what the consumer wants, if Sony doesn't want to license their media to HD-DVD manufacturers, then that somewhat sinks that ship really quickly, wouldn't you agree?
Research the BD spec, you'll quickly see why it's a long-term solution vs a short term one. I don't care for the cost of the dang things, and moreover, I don't care for having to buy a new player. But it's inevitable whether the new format is HD-DVD, BD, or little green bits of ground glass in a kaleidoscope.

With Sony owning so much of the world's content...that alone is a HUGE bit of leverage. Doesn't matter much what the consumer wants, if Sony doesn't want to license their media to HD-DVD manufacturers, then that somewhat sinks that ship really quickly, wouldn't you agree?

How do you figure the content thing? Skipping for the moment video games and music (which won't, I think, decide the question of the next format - I think it will be decided on films) Sony owns Columbia-Tri-Star and MGM/UA, and that's a lot.

On the other hand, HD-DVD has firm deals in place with Paramount and Warner Bros. (which together equal as much content as Sony has), and Disney and Fox seem to be willing to play both sides.

So content wise, they seem to be quite equal at the moment. What makes you say Sony owns the most?

Ditto what Joshua said -- there's no indication that ALL of the important movie content will be delivered on blu-ray versus HD-DVD, so it sure looks like a battle between two well-backed formats. If a customer asks me what I recommend for delivery of my HD projects, and the cost of blank discs is 10X as much with blu-ray, I'd probably recommend the Toshiba solution for that reason alone. Or I'll just include a red-laser HD player as part of my HD packages, and circumvent the whole blue-laser DVD fiasco entirely. Let's say it takes at least 2-3 years or more for Sony to get blu-ray prices down to reasonable levels -- I can wait that out using solutions which are available today.

2hr 30min of 1920x1080 MPG2 video = 20gigs

That is with only one audio track. I don't see HD-DVD using MPG2 much if it does become the standard. Personally I would rather see Blu-Ray because of the storage space. It is very much needed. Do you really think a 6 layer HD-DVD will be reliable? How about people wanting to burn their own HD-DVDs? It took years for the home market to see dual-layer DVD burners, would it be the same with HD-DVD?

Also using Java to program Blu-Ray is a plus.

I'm not a Sony fanboy, but they seem to have the upperhand in this case.

2hr 30min of 1920x1080 MPG2 video = 20gigs

A two-layer Toshiba HD DVD will hold 30 GB of data, which is more than enough for two hours of full-quality HDV footage or almost eight hours of Windows Media HD. More importantly, a one-layer HD DVD will hold four hours of Windows Media HD or three hours plus a bunch of extras, on a disc which will reportedly cost no more to manufacture than current red-laser DVDs. So if I can fit everything from a long HD project on one disc which costs me maybe $1 to buy, what's my incentive to use blu-ray at $5-10 per disc?

As far as burners are concerned, if Toshiba's format is so much simpler in terms of the discs I would hope that also extends to the burners and players, so if those are also shipping at reasonable prices six months from now that's a big advantage over blu-ray

The main weakness I see for Toshiba is that they're going to get squeezed by the HD alternatives being delivered in new game machines next year, with Sony using blu-ray and Microsoft using Windows Media in the Xbox2. That does start to make Toshiba look like "odd man out," but if they have a practical product at the right price they might still make it work.

Me, I'll just stick to Windows Media HD on standard DVDs until we see what happens with the new disc formats.

A two-layer Toshiba HD DVD will hold 30 GB of data, which is more than enough for two hours of full-quality HDV footage or almost eight hours of Windows Media HD.

I think we'd see more 2 disc movies with HD-DVD over Blu-Ray. The cost factor is because it is new, as with everything else when it is new.

Me, I'll just stick to Windows Media HD on standard DVDs until we see what happens with the new disc formats.

I've recently discovered the I-O Data AVLP2 Network DVD Player and it is beyond awesome for this. I still have to do more tests with encoding Xvid and WMV9 at HD resolutions to familiarize myself to the level I am with MPG2.

I think we'd see more 2 disc movies with HD-DVD over Blu-Ray. The cost factor is because it is new, as with everything else when it is new.

But Toshiba has already announced that they're ready to produce their HD DVDs in large volumes with nearly the same manufacturing cost of making a standard red-laser DVD, meaning they could sell the new discs at close to current disc prices. Everything I've ready about blu-ray suggests the discs will initially cost at least $5-10 each or potentially even more than that, which puts a big damper on the format as far as I'm concerned.

As you said, players like the Avel effectively solve this problem to some extent for the foreseeable future. But as I understand it there's no way to have a proper DVD menu for HD files with the Avel, so you lose a lot of the customer experience. That puts us back to just using widescreen SD DVDs for most purposes until this whole HD mess gets sorted out.

Well the reason why those discs are so cheap right now is because the machines to make the DVDs can still be used and replaced with few parts. Where Blu-Ray needs a whole new line...if I am not mistaken.

For the time being, fast forwarding will have to replace menus on the AVLP. We did it for 20 years, we can do it for another 2. :)

"The new players will output through analog component only 480p signal and no real HD"

You got a source for that, or are you speculating?
Here's just one of the links that I remember of:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds22406.html

But there were quite a few more sources that I can't dig out right now.

So if you have an HDTV without HDMI that supports encryption - you're screwed to watch everything from HD-DVD at 480p. Of course, I really hope that there will be some Chinese manufacturers that might include analog component Hi-Def output. If not, then this format is not for me, and I hope most of the people don't buy it either. The industry went just one step too far with this one, and I hope it backfires at them.

Here's just one of the links that I remember of:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds22406.html

But there were quite a few more sources that I can't dig out right now.

So if you have an HDTV without HDMI that supports encryption - you're screwed to watch everything from HD-DVD at 480p. Of course, I really hope that there will be some Chinese manufacturers that might include analog component Hi-Def output. If not, then this format is not for me, and I hope most of the people don't buy it either. The industry went just one step too far with this one, and I hope it backfires at them.

I remember seeing a press release at Tom's Hardware site, from some Microsoft executive regarding HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. I'm sure it mentioned that while the amount of data such high density disks is capable of handling the full HD-stream, the actual data-read rates are no better than we currently have with standard DVD and Microsoft wasn't actually prepared to support the proposed HD-DVD/Blu-Ray formats until that changed... which could be some time apparently.

Strangely, when I went back to Tom's Hardware site the next day to re-read the release... I couldn't find it! I'm sure it got pulled for being a bit negative, when there's so much positiveness about both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Personally; I'm with Ruslan on this. Just another excercise in hype from the "spend your dough on the latest and geatest spin doctors".

Just wait until all those happy smilling people who've dished their cash out to the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray 'Pied-Piper' find out which path it is they've been led up!!

Personally, I'll be going with the one that will allow me to view HD material through analog ports. I bought my big screen HDTV in 2001 before HDMI was being put on everything, and I'm not of a mind to get a new one just because there it is missing a port. I need that TV to last me 10 years (for what I paid for it) and that's what it's going to do.

So if Blu-Ray (which hasn't said one way or another yet) lets me use my component cables, that's what I'll get. Otherwise I'll be looking for some Chinese player that will let me I suppose.

Which is unfortunate, because the films I would be most likely to get in HD right away - the Matrix films, the Harry Potter films, the Lord of the Rings films - will initially be avaialble on HD-DVD only.

Let us not forget that Sony has announced the the PS3 will be Blueray... depending on how aggressive they get with their pricing, this would be a KILLER for HD-DVD. It is estimated that up to 70% of the PS2's bought in the first year were used primarily as DVD players.


ash =o)

And from what I've seen, the PS3 and Xbox 2 (whatever it's called) are both going to be around the price of the PS2 and original Xbox when they came out... $300 ish... Any more than that and people just won't go for them...

Who cares?

First, I'm only looking at Blueray for storage purposes. Right now, it's looking more like a fat DVD disk, with enough room to archive many of my one-hour DV25 projects; video, support, edit files and all. That way, when it comes time to repurpose or rebuild a project, it's a simple copy, with no need to recapture the tapes.

Second, I am having great success with 720p windows media HD files on DVD disk, thankyou. Therefore, I see computers catching on as the primary playback platform, and more efficient compression being the ticket.



Pete