I have a large collection of AVI's created on Windows with NeoScene/Vegas, and now I need to move them over to a Mac for further production on FCP/AE.

FCP won't recognize the files, though Quicktime will- so I could theoretically transcode it all to ProRes. However, from what I've read, this is no good as Quicktime on Mac will interpret the AVI as 8-bit instead of 10-bit.

According to Cineform Tech Blog Blog Archive How can I rewrap files for cross-platform compatibility? (http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=216) - there's supposed to be a tool called "HD-Link" that allows me to rewrap the AVI to MOV on Windows, so that it can be used natively in FCP as 10-bit.

However- I don't see it alongside Neoscene anywhere. One of the main reasons I bought neoscene was for its "read anywhere" capability. Please help me get my video into FCP as 10-bit? :)

Thanks!

NeoScene does not have the re-wrap function. You'll have to use NEOHD which is the next step up from NeoScene.

NEOHD / PC
- contains the HD Link program which lets you to re-wrap your files between Cineform AVI <=> Cineform MOV.

NEOHD / Mac
- contains ReMaster, which is the Mac equivalent of HD Link. *** But it can only re-wrap in one direction: Cineform AVI => Cineform MOV.

Any chance you have the original video files? That would simplify your cross-platform issues. You could re-encode using NeoScene on the PC (MOV) or Mac (MOV / ProRes). Or you could use ClipWrap to re-wrap to a MOV file.

Not sure what you mean by original video files...

Yes- I have all the original MTS files, but I transcoded to cineform, edited in vegas, and exported the edited clips as cineform. It's these edited clips which I need to work with on the Mac.

I do not see an option to "re-encode using NeoScene on the PC (MOV)"

So it seems my only option is to use HD-Link or Remaster... are either of these available for purchase separately?

I see, you just want to re-wrap the Cineform output from Vegas.

Yep... are HD-Link and ReMaster my only options?

I can think of 3 options:

1. Get NEOHD and re-wrap your edited Cineform files.
2. Output your edit from Vegas in a more Mac friendly format.
3. Try editing the AVIs direct on the Mac and see if you can live with it.

Thanks for your help!

By the way- how exactly do I definitively determine the color-depth of a MOV and/or AVI?

HDV (.m2t) and AVCHD (.mts) are 8-bit. Cineform files are 10-bit and at minimum use a 4:2:2 color space, but as you've discovered sometimes the NLEs don't use the 10-bits. In this case, FCP treats Cineform AVIs as 8-bit. If you're really sending your video to be processed by After Effects and color corrected in FCP, it's preferable to have this happen in a 10-bit, 4:2:2 color space. At the very least, output to a codec that supports what you're trying to do. DNxHD might be another good option for this type of cross-platform work. I believe you can export directly to DNxHD from Vegas.

So would this be correct:

Going from AVCHD (8-bit) to Cineform (10-bit) doesn't really add any information, since any values that were represented by 8-bit can also be represented by 10-bit.

However, if that 10-bit file is now manipulated i.e. for color correction, it will have more possibilities since it's now a 10-bit file.

Exporting back out at 8-bit would "crunch" some of those values, resulting in possible artifacting. Rendering out at 10-bit would preserve it all.

So in short- going from 8-bit to 10-bit is pointless unless the file is going to be modified, in which case it's good to go to 10-bit, and stay there for the whole workflow?

Here's the Cineform Tech Blog (http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=780) on this issue.Specifically on Mac, even though CineForm AVI files can be played in both QT Player and Final Cut Pro, 10/12-bit CineForm AVI files are interpreted on the Mac as 8-bit files. To ensure your CineForm files are properly interpreted by FCP and AE as 10/12-bit files, rewrap them to MOV files first.

Yes, generally if you're doing color correction or compositing, it's better to convert to a 10-bit file with a 4:2:2 color space ... this assumes that the NLE and FX software can handle it properly.

Thanks for all your help!

It would be great if Neoscene came bundled with a simple "rewrap" utility... this isn't a problem I expected to run into :\

I just gave the free Avid DNxHD codec a shot - Knowledge Base (http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=263545)

It seems to export fine from Vegas. Would that be a valid route to export almost lossless to Mac from PC, while retaining the 10-bit fidelity?

If it does work, then does NeoScene offer anything which can't be done natively in Vegas with DNxHD, aside from 4:2:0->4:2:2?

(Vegas does read AVCHD natively- so with network rendering it could be used as a sort of batch process AVCHD->DNxHD)

Most DNxHD implementations are 8-bit, and I strongly doubt the DNxHD 220 (the 10-bit mode) is directly supported beyond 8-bit IO from Vegas or from most hosts FCP, AE etc. So a CineForm NeoScene AVI on a Mac would work just as well as an DNxHD 220 MOV file -- except under FCP the CineForm file would be real-time with the RT mode enabled (part of NeoScene/NeoHD/etc on the Mac.) NeoScene is tool for workflow convenience for the hobbyist end of the market, if you are network rendering you are not so much a hobbyist and rewrap is included with all our pro level tools. You should look into a NeoHD license if you are doing a lot of cross platform work -- it will pay for itself.

Thanks for clearing that up David :)

Is there a way to technically look at a file and see if it's 10-bit or 8-bit, as well as the color-sampling?

I don't see this via MediaInfo.

Our files are always 10-bit. It is up to the app and setups to decode using a deep pixel format. In FCP that is 'v210' (10-bit YUV 4:2:2) or 'r4fl' (32-bit float YUVA 4:4:4:4)

Thanks... what I mean is, do you know of a generic way to determine the bit-depth and color-sampling of a video? Let's assume it's some obscure codec that doesn't have the CTO available to provide such info :)

I.e. I can't see the information via mediainfo.

That is tough. Compression obfuscates the internal precision from the the rest of the system, so anything reported in the header would be more marketing info that technical. We even under report our capabilities in the header to unsure the widest compatibility (in MOVs we say we're 24-bit no matter what is in it so we get better performance in FCP.) Codec can only really be tested through its color-correctability, there we basically have no competition, as even if the application is only 8-bit, FirstLight enables deep correction.

Here's what I would do....

I'd download the trial version of Neo HD for Mac. The ReMaster app included in NeoHD will rewrap the CineForm AVI files to MOV. It will work with full functionality for 15 days. This will also give you a chance to play with First Light, which as you can read about on various threads here, is a valuable non-destructive color correction tool.

In the worst case when the trial expires you'll still have 10-bit CineForm MOV files. But you might also become a convert to the workflow value that First Light offers through an upgrade to NeoHD.

Thank you all!