Chris .. try using your own cards and slip one in in the hiatus don't forget to format it. To remove it shout LOOK! and point up at the ceiling. Have a great trip.

Cheers.

haahaha....this sounds like the same conversation I had with my biz partner over 14 years ago. We purchased an Ikegami HL-V55 in 1996. At the time...was one of the best betacam sp camcorders around IMHO.

At NAB...all the nice lighting is fine. I took the camera...spun it on the tripod...and shot up in the rafters of the LVCC and found the darkest area I could find. Then...pushed the gain.

Plus...also shot down an aisle in the mixed lighting at NAB...and could look at how the camera handled the mixed lighting.

That was then....this is now...

BTW...to get back on topic.

HDV will be around for awhile. It's a fine format for many things...

I've learned over the years not to be "snobby" about quality anymore. Use the tools and what they are intended for. HDV is super for many types of projects. When it's not...you go to something else. Nanoflash recording, HDCam, XDCam HD...etc. Use the tool for the job.

it's hard to think about that today...with multiple formats, codecs...etc. In the "old days"...you picked a format and stuck with it. Today...the playing field is VAST...and that's sooo cool...it's taken me a bit of time not to 'fight' it...but embrace it. So many options...that you can own for specific jobs. I still love my H1 and will use it for MANY jobs...but probably my next cam will be the Sony PDW-700 XDCam HD for other type of work we do.

Will I look at the new XF305 ? YOU BET...and buy one...yeah......if I can find some jobs that are perfect for it's design !

ENJOY NAB everyone ! Leaving on Sunday !

PS:...Chris...you do a great job with this site...and it's great to see all the people on the site in wonderful discussions like this.

Thanks for the pics Chris. That looks just like the set up in London. Perhaps it IS the set up in London?
The travelling Canon roadshow!
Enjoy the trip.

It's a great idea, but I don't have any 82mm filters and I'm heading to the airport in 36 hours.
I was really thinking along the lines of a selection of 4x4s, as used in a matte box, and just holding them in front for the purpose of this. Then the same filters could be applied to different cameras regardless of filter diameter. I don't suppose anybody going to NAB could take something along for Chris to try?

Failing that, then yes, at least putting all the camera ND the camera possesses in and gaining up may give some idea - it just won't give a comparitive result between the Canon and other cameras.

If I get the time I'm going to take my ex1 over to the canon booth and put it side by side with a 300, that should be quite telling.

That would be awesome Alister. A personal opinion on comparable gain settings between the two to your naked eye would be appreciated :).

Alister's opinion would be worth a lot more than mine!

Again with HDMI is HD-SDI output really that important to most of us? I totally agree that it is silly to charge that much just for HD-SDI but with HDMI output I just don't really need it.

It's not just SDI output, it's also genlock and timecode in and out.

SDI can be used for very long cable runs, well over 100m.

TC in and out means that all cameras on multi camera shoots can have matching TC, greatly speeding up sync in post.

And genlock is a must for shooting stereo 3D, it's the best way to insure that the cameras are truly in sync.

You gotta love it...11 pages in 3 days and I think it was 6 pages the 1st day. The cameras looks great and addressed A LOT of things people have been asking for....stops on the lens, bigger LCD, and a surprise to me, HDMI on the lower priced camera, not to mention the impressive new codec. I look forward to seeing them on Monday morning. I think for the under 10k crowd, these cameras are going to do very well.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

If I get the time I'm going to take my ex1 over to the canon booth and put it side by side with a 300, that should be quite telling.

PLease please please do!

I bet the Sony folks breathed a sigh of relief when seeing the price points in the press release.

With all the respect for Sony, the EX-1 build quality is the worst I have seen the last years. Compare that to the XL-H1 or XH-A1... they are miles apart. I was going to trade in my XL-H1 for an EX-1 a year or so back... until I tried the EX-1 of a friend of mine. Handling and build quality were so disappointing that I decided to wait for a better camera (i do love the image quality of the EX-1)... still waiting but I have faith I will succeed this year. The XL-H1 still gets the job done, despite some major annoyances (low-light, focus control, viewfinder...). Judging from the press pictures, the XF series is going to have a very rigid build quality as well.

And you can't judge the image quality when you haven't seen it. It's always the combination that counts.... image sensor size, processing, lens and codec. This camera is using CMOS censors which Canon is very experienced with... so it could well be a low-light beast.

Wait and see, then judge.

Yes, the XL-H1 definitely still gets the job done.

So much so that for me, I think I'll hold onto my XL H1S for the time being, although am interested in the performance of this new Canon.

Anyone think the next XL version will have different specs than the XF? With the XF305 priced at 8K, I can only wonder what the new XL will be priced around...

At least you have the XL-H1S... some nice improvements like the lens rings, focus speeds, firewire 400 (6-pin)... my biggest gripe with the XL-H1 are the zoom/focus rings and the viewfinder (although I got used to it). Thought about getting the Ikagami but at this moment, I have decided only to invest in universal gear (wireless lavalier system, external monitor, anton bauer system, field audio recorder etc.). When the moment comes, I exchange the camera in my filmmaking system... but the system itself stays in place.

I hope to stay with Canon (I work for them now, since they took over Océ, dutch printing company, which I happen to work for). Maybe I can get them cheaper now from inside the company... I was also very fond of Panasonic in the SD days... so I think my new gear will come from either Canon or Panasonic... or maybe RED if they deliver someday.

Yeah, I understand Floris ... I've become more meticulous with equipment upgrades these days. With these cameras being so good already, I feel like investments in accessories that make production and workflow work much smoother are much much better investments. My XL H1S has made its investment cost back several times over already and I still have many clients that love what comes out of it. In fact, I'm overbooked these days with production work, but I guess thats a good thing :)

I'e been thinking a lot about purchases I want to make in the next couple weeks. One of them is the Nanoflash for the XL ... can't stop debating whether I should buy that for my current camera or invest towards this new XF.

Michael, surely the benefits of the nanoflash will be covered by Canon's new codec? And then there's the new Canon L-lens that i suspect will be top-draw for the price. And lest we forget, the sensor which - according to Barry Green - the Panasonic folks have come up with at 1/3 inch, at least equals the EX1.
In spite of the skepticism on this thread, the new Canon range look very interesting imo.

What are the chances that the XL versions of the XF series will take the XF's price point when they come out and the XF version will lower in price?

Also, when can we expect sample footage? ;-D

.... hoping to see some photos/news posted online here today from folks at NAB Show of the new Canons!

This thread is getting massive, so I am trying to shortcut to an answer to this question. Does anyone know about record times on CF cards with these two cams? Is there 2/4/GB file size limit?

-steev

There is no clip length limit. Record a long single shot up to the capacity of the card.

Yeah, I understand Floris ... I've become more meticulous with equipment upgrades these days. With these cameras being so good already, I feel like investments in accessories that make production and workflow work much smoother are much much better investments. My XL H1S has made its investment cost back several times over already and I still have many clients that love what comes out of it. In fact, I'm overbooked these days with production work, but I guess thats a good thing :)

I'e been thinking a lot about purchases I want to make in the next couple weeks. One of them is the Nanoflash for the XL ... can't stop debating whether I should buy that for my current camera or invest towards this new XF.

That's a tough call Michael. If the form factor of the XL series is important to you style of shooting, then the Nano-flash would be a good add-on to that. Additionally, it should be an option for just about any camera you upgrade to and thus becomes more universal. If I am not mistaken doesn't it go much higher than 50mbps also....for the time that you need to do chroma key and compositing work and need "super" clean shots?

To be clear, if this were an XL series replacement at this price....I'd go that route for sure. But even though the XL series is flawed ergonomically (compared to true ENG) it is still better to me than the XH, HVX and EX1 styles where you hold it in front of you.

Still this looks like a hot camera.

Michael,
what do you think about the AJA Ki Pro instead of the Nano Flash? I have the AJA I/O HD, and its awesome. The only issue is if out on location,then you have to be tethered to a MacBook Pro or a MacPro, which means power outlets and everything else.

That's a tough call Michael. If the form factor of the XL series is important to you style of shooting, then the Nano-flash would be a good add-on to that. Additionally, it should be an option for just about any camera you upgrade to and thus becomes more universal. If I am not mistaken doesn't it go much higher than 50mbps also....for the time that you need to do chroma key and compositing work and need "super" clean shots?

To be clear, if this were an XL series replacement at this price....I'd go that route for sure. But even though the XL series is flawed ergonomically (compared to true ENG) it is still better to me than the XH, HVX and EX1 styles where you hold it in front of you.

Still this looks like a hot camera.

Hey Marty!

Hope all is well.

Yeah, the Nano goes up to 280mbps so it gives visually uncompressed looking images. I think its a fantastic upgrade for the XL. THe XL form factor is what I'm so used too as well, so I am leaning towards the Nano.

But the new cam does look nice, hence my hesitation in buying still ... sigh ...

Michael,
what do you think about the AJA Ki Pro instead of the Nano Flash? I have the AJA I/O HD, and its awesome. The only issue is if out on location,then you have to be tethered to a MacBook Pro or a MacPro, which means power outlets and everything else.

Well thats the thing. I used to have the AJA IO HD for live capture, but the Nano allow s me to shoot all the time with the HD-SDI port, as it mounts on the camera.

I'm looking at either one of these or the Sony EX1R, and I went as a doubter even though I own the XHA1 and love it. So, I went to the canon booth at NAB, aimed the camera away from the lit live models and into the shadows - and wow. The low light ability is amazing. And Clean. Whatever magic Canon was working on to make these 1/3" CMOS chips rival the 1/2" Exmors of Sony is working.

I'm going to take a memory card with me tomorrow and see if I can record some footage to it.

The most impressive thing was the lens. A real manual mechanical lens. Even has gears on the iris, zoom, and focus for remote motors or manual follow focus equipment. The lens was amazing.

Lonnie

Thanks Lonnie for that first impression!

I'm also saving up for an upgrade to an HD cam, and have had my sights on an EX1R (even the wife has agreed to the upgrade--Woot!). But since Canon's announcement, I thought I'd wait and see how these Canon cams compare.

Can you please let us know specifically which compact flash you'll use (and the specs)? And would frame grabs or actual footage be too much to ask?

Best,

That will be the intention, Jeff. I'll load it, shoot it, and let DVINFO host it (if they will). I'm also assuming they haven't crippled the cameras so that they don't record. We will see tomorrow...

Interesting tidbit: in the outer shadows of the live models they have, I zoomed into two soda cans that were about 12 feet away from camera. The cans were about 2 inches apart (one being behind the other less than two inches). Iris wide open, full telephoto, I could rack focus within those shadows making one can readable and the other not - and this was in a fairly unlit area. Pretty impressive shallow focus for 1/3" chips. My XHA1 couldn't do that. And no noise either!

Lonnie

Well the DOF should be identical on the new camera and the old camera as they are the exact same sensor size. Perhaps the feel of the focus ring allows you to pull off this maneuvaer a little easier and obviously there should be less noise since this is a next generation camera. The other variable is the fstop is 2.8 at the extreme telephoto end of the lens which is pretty good. I don;t recall what the XH series was but it had to be aleast 3.2 or 3.4....right? That would help the shallow DOF a little I'd think.

I do know my 16x manual lens on my XL-H1 holds the fstop at 1.6 all the way through the 16x zoom range. It's quite a marvel but honestly shows a decent ammount of CA if I leave it wide open and zoomed max. But it did allow me get some creative shots.

Hey Marty,
Yes same sensor size, but a new sensor built specifically by Canon to use with their lens (and codec too, but the codec isn't playing a part in the camera's front end obviously). You could be right about the f-stop being wider - i didn't look. But if the sensor is more sensitive or more light is allowed in or both, this would allow for a more shallow depth of field too, would it not?

All I know, is that I couldn't have done it with my XHA1. And another caveat is: this was solely judging by what I saw in the camera's lcd and a non-top of the line Marshal on-camera monitor. Both images were noise free. But that's why I'd like to record it to a card and come home and look at it in the NLE and post it for you guys - that will make us all smarter.

This is superior technology though - no doubt about it. I'm betting it may give the EX1R a run for the money. And yes, you are right about the lens - it did feel good too!

Lonnie

Hey, anyone who is at NAB, can they ask Canon about anything regarding the next iteration of the XL series?

I couldn't go last minute to NAB this year due to work I have to do here in NYC.

I'd love to know any information if possible.

Thanks!

Lonnie, that is awesome! Thanks for the report :). Please push the gain and see what kind of noise characteristics the cam has.

Appreciate the report!

fstop at 1.6 all the way through the 16x zoom range. It's quite a marvel.

It is indeed quite a marvel if this is so, and it comes as a big surprise to me. The stock 20x zoom starts out at a good f/1.6 (but a feeble wide-angle equivalent of 39mm) but is only f/3.5 at the tele end. I know the 16x zoom costs a good £1000 but I had no idea it was this fast right throughout its range.

The XF does indeed have an f/2.8 maximum at full tele, but it's a shorter (18x vs 20x) zoom than on the XH, which has an f/3.4 maximum at full tele.

tom.

Tom,
I can verify this to be 100% true. Even though it seems impossible as fixed aperture zooms are usually super expensive. I discovered this several years ago when shooting wedding reception and I found the 16x to be ideal in low light. I didn't understand as much about the relationship of fstops and light gathering....so at the time a f3.2 to f.1.6 didn't "sound" like a big difference. But in a poorly lit reception hall it was huge!

Also, just like this new lens, the 16x has hard stops so when in doubt, you can whip it to the infinity setting and knw that everything beyond 2-3 feet in front of the lens would be in sharp focus. This is helpful in no scripted chaotic shooting.

I just double checked the listed specs for the 16x xl manual lens and it is listed as having an Fspec of 1.6. It doesn't list a range which is typically how they list it if the fstop varies over the zoom range.

The drawback to this lens is that it has no image stabilizer though, which the new canon series we are discussing here does. Big + for that.

We must be talking about fifferent lenses then Marty. The 16x manual Canon zoom I've always known has been the $1500, 5.5-88 mm - F/1.6- 2.1. Here's a typical site that lists it:

Canon Lens - Optical Zoom: 16X Zoom - 5.5-88 mm - F/1.6- 2.1 (Anitec.ca) at BEST PRICE (http://www.pricebat.ca/Canon-Lens-Optical-Zoom-16X-Zoom-5-5-88-mm-F-1-6-2-1.u_1491063/)

OK, it only loses 3/4 of a stop from wide to tele but you've still got to almost double the light in the room to use full tele - or bump the gain by 5dB. So where does your '100% true' come from?

But then again most 16x zooms lose more like 1.5 stops, a noticeable difference.

tom.

I will test this over my lunch hour to see. My 100% true is based on when I zoom to maximum telephoto the fstop 1.6 stays there all the way through. Now....is it possible that the indicator says f1.6 but the actual lens is stopping down to f2.1? I suppose. I will be shocked if I go test it and it actually says f2.1 as I have been using it for better than six years and never noticed it. But there is a slim chance I am wrong so I guess I shouldn't have said 100%....should I? I'll let you know in a bit.

Does anyone have some opinions for using the xf cams with a 35mm adapter? I am more picking out the light loss and how it may still handle the image. The A1 with a redrock and 1.8 does me well though any slight chance of an under exposed situation and the image will crumble in post. This is my main reason for a new camera. The ex1 handles the adapters very well so far with what i have seen, but due to the sensors the xf may not work as well with it. Keep the A1 for eng and buy a 5D for stuff i would use the 35mm look? Thanks for the input.

All right. Last post on the 16x manual for the XL series in this thread by me. I can 100% confirm my 100% confirmation from earlier that the lens holds the f1.6 from the widest point to the most telephoto point of the zoom. The fstop indicator never changes and to my eye (unscientific but experienced enough to detect anything major) the iris never changes. If it does change at all it is very, very minor and is not visible or detectable via the camera's interface.

Regardless, the new lens on the xf300 series will be every bit as good plus have great IS to boot. f1.6 to f2.8 isn't bad either!

All right. Last post on the 16x manual for the XL series in this thread by me. I can 100% confirm my 100% confirmation from earlier that the lens holds the f1.6 from the widest point to the most telephoto point of the zoom. The fstop indicator never changes and to my eye (unscientific but experienced enough to detect anything major) the iris never changes. If it does change at all it is very, very minor and is not visible or detectable via the camera's interface.

Regardless, the new lens on the xf300 series will be every bit as good plus have great IS to boot. f1.6 to f2.8 isn't bad either!

Hey Marty,

How do you like this lens on your XL H1? Having 1.6 constant aperture sounds fantastic for low-light event shooting.

Do you find it resolves similar detail to the stock lens? How about CA?

Sorry, this is the first thing I asked them yesterday. All of the XF models they have are pre-production market test samples which are definitely record inhibited.

Chris,

Any chance you can ask Canon about the XL version of the XF cams?

Marty - it's easily tested. Fill the screen with something like an evenly lit wall. Shoot at max wide-angle and max aperture. You might need to up the shutter speed and / or apply ND filters so that your lens really is wide open. Shoot a couple of seconds.

Now zoom to full tele. Shoot another second or two without altering any of the settings. On the timeline you'll be able to jump forwards and backwards across the join. Just compare the centre of the screen as the edges will be vignetted by a stop and a half - which is very normal.

tom.

I've started a new thread in the XL-h1 forum for any further discussion on the 16x manual XL lens. Just trying to keep this organized and focused on the new camera. See my responses over there please.

I have to say, though -- these came in at higher prices than I expected ($8000 with SDI and $6800 without SDI). Honestly I had figured they would be much closer in price to the XH series.

Hey Chris. It was good to meet you at the Canon booth as we were both drooling over the XF Series.
I have to say, It is really intriguing to see Canon step up the on this camera. The footage in the Canon Demo room looked incredible. Although I love my NXCAM and I still would like to see some lowlight footage from this camera, I am very interested and happy to see the bar be raised.

Woah... I just watched a video over at FreshDV. They interviewed Canon's Chuck Westfall about the XF cameras.

When he was asked about the Dynamic range of the camera, Chuck states that it will be around 11 to 12 stops.

If true, thats pretty incredible!

thanks for the mention of the freshdv coverage. i truly cannot wait til i can get my hands on one. could someone elaborate on what they mean by the 11 to 12 stops for dynamic range.

Woah... I just watched a video over at FreshDV. They interviewed Canon's Chuck Westfall about the XF cameras.

When he was asked about the Dynamic range of the camera, Chuck states that it will be around 11 to 12 stops.

If true, thats pretty incredible!

That is massive if that is true....believe it when we see it

Pardon if these specs have been posted already .. yea! these cams have audio limiters .. and the 3sec prerecord is going to grab a lot of folk.

Maybe a good idea to order an 82mm UV filter now .. they'll be in short supply.

Canon Professional Network - Canon XF305 and XF300 (http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/product/camcorders/xf305_xf300.do)

Cheers.

I just saw the Fresh DV piece... this thing is a beast.

What I noticed:

- Great LCD screen... flip to right or left side of camera and flip image.
- Build quality looks excellent
- Big lens
- Build in waveform, vector and that new focus assist
- Import metadata for clips via SDHC card
(I guess you can create dummies on your computer and then apply those to clips you are shooting... neat)

If the 11-12 stops is true... I guess this will be my new camera.

Canon is always the last to do something but they seldom disappoint.

I just hope that the price drops to like $5000/$6000.

"High-speed data readout developed by Canon reduces the skew effects caused by rolling shutter, resulting in realistic reproduction of moving subjects." from Canon Professional Europe site. Was also mentioned in freshDV video.

Anyone at NAB that handled one confirm this? This is great news and hopefully an effective implementation.

I previously owned an A1 and think this was solved in the A1S:

Will the XF allow you to record audio from the internal mic in addition to the an attached XLR mic?

Does anyone know whether the camera has intervalometer and single frame functions? Any news on the viewfinder resolution?

If it really can capture a 11-12 stop luminance range, then I'm probably sold on it already.