Agreed Thomas but going back to Alistair's comments, if your shooting for broadcast 1/3 even sensitive 1/3 may not be good enough.

But if it is as good as the 1/2" you were going to buy then what exactly is the difference?

Is the sensitivity a massive issue anyway?
Because you have more depth of field you'd tend to want to use wider apertures anyway, does that not level things out a bit? If you've got 2 stops less sensitivity over a 2/3" chip camera and you shoot at f2 instead of f4 you'll get the same exposure and off the top of my head probably similar dof.
Steve

"Optional 50i/25p Frame Rate Upgrade

For added versatility, XF305 can be customized to record in both 60i/50i and 24p/25p
(this optional upgrade must be performed by a Canon Factory Service Center)."

Nothing about 50p?I have confirmed through Canon USA that the PAL upgrade does indeed include 50p when recording in 720.

So in 1080 mode you'll get 50i and 25p, and in 720 mode you'll get 50p and 25p.

Hope this helps,

Bit crap that it's not standard isn't it? Why not? It's the general rule these days I thought.
Steve

I believe their line of thinking is that you don't have to pay for overseas compatibility
unless you really need it -- therefore it's an optional upgrade. Although I have to say,
at these prices you'd think they'd just include it. At any rate, this has been their SOP
for several years now since the XL2 days.

Buffff, very expensive.
I was thinking something like XH A1s+50%. 5.000 $, more or less. Add 500$ if you want (is money).
And only one model: with SDI.
A mix of XH A1s+Sony NX5.

I've been waiting for Canon's announcement before I did some equipment purchasing this year. And now that its here...

Do you guys think it would be worthwhile to get a Canon XF or get a Nanoflash for my current XL H1S?

I do have to say that I've been extremely happy with the XL H1S and it provides a fantastic image, usability, versatility... just an overall excellent camera experience. Right now, I feel like adding a Nanoflash to it would make for a better upgrade overall, but just seeing what you guys think.

If it was a question of one or the other, I would just wait.

But if it is as good as the 1/2" you were going to buy then what exactly is the difference?

Difference is if the client (broadcaster) will pay for it or not, most probably if the footage is good you will get away with it but if the broadcaster asks you what you shoot on and it has 1/3" chips it could be a deal breaker. Why not make life easier and shoot with what they already approve of i.e. EX1R with nano flash or equiv, and lets face it, it isn't any more expensive.

Anyone here plan on buying or renting one? No rentals (at least for new gear) around me....

john

I just saw the same sales spec sheet at a local Canon shop here on the 7th - and then found this post, where everyone is already miles ahead as usual.

I think this is fantastic news, and if I had a spare 7 or 8K I would definitely buy it. I love my A1S and tapes, but this gives a whole new set of options for shooters. I do have an MRC1 but this new 422 50Mbps codec and internal CF system take it to the next level, and rounds out an already solid Canon lineup.

It appears that this new camcoder does not have any Standard Definition capability. I will be buying a camcoder any moment and for sure I cant be convinced to go canon way when EX1r is there with SDHC and the likes on the menu. Hopefully they will make an update later to include SD and probably reduce the price also, 4.2.2 is good but... i will still prefer nano for more varsatility.

I will be happy to see SD on thier specs 'cos around here most of the Jobs are still delivered in SD but HD is just around the corner, so i will like to future proof my puchase now.

Difference is if the client (broadcaster) will pay for it or not, most probably if the footage is good you will get away with it but if the broadcaster asks you what you shoot on and it has 1/3" chips it could be a deal breaker. Why not make life easier and shoot with what they already approve of i.e. EX1R with nano flash or equiv, and lets face it, it isn't any more expensive.

If you have a client that concerned about quality then shouldn't you really be shooting for a higher end camera anyway and not a hand held form factor? Why not just go for a 20k+ camera then and have peace of mind. I mean if you have clients who are that concerned about quality I'm guessing they pay pretty well or at least they should be. From what I have heard on here it sounds like those clients would be much more concerned about CMOS then they would be about 1/3" chips.

I am looking forward to seeing how it actually performs.

I do wish it had a slightly lower price point. I was hoping for the $5,000 entry range.

nonetheless, unless something is really bad with it, I will just save a little longer and probably get one. All depends on early adopters and reviews though :)

the old GL1 has been a trooper for the past 11 years. Hope this new Canon will last just as long.

It appears that this new camcoder does not have any Standard Definition capability.
I'm sorry Olakunle, it appears that you are right about this. I put a
query into Canon USA and have received a prompt reply confirming
that there is no Standard Definition recording capability.

I have withdrawn a couple of posts from public view which stated
otherwise, just to avoid any possible confusion. Olakunle is correct;
the XF series camcorders do not have any Standard Definition
recording capability.

You know I was thinking back to the old days when the only option most of us had was DV. The only realistic step up for a better codec was DVCPRO50. In that case we were talking the only option was a 20k+ camera which cost a heck of a lot more then most of our Canon DV cameras. Now of course these were 1/2" or 2/3" full size cameras which made up a big chunk of the price. My point is that higher quality codecs especially those that offered 4:2:2 have always cost a huge premium. Well except for Panasonic with the HVX200. I guess my whole point is that yes the Canon camera is expensive when we compare it to other 4:2:0 cameras but what is the price like compared to other 4:2:2 cameras?

It all really comes down to how important is 4:2:2 to you. Just like in the DV days we had a choice to use 4:1:1 or sell our first born and use 4:2:2. If you really need 4:2:2 then this is a great camera at a steal of a price. How much do any of you think a EX1 with 4:2:2 would cost? None of us can really say what the cost of the codec is and it could be possible that if SONY did make a EX! with 4:2:2 recording that it would cost a lot more then the current EX1. Unfortunately we don't really have much to compare to right now to determine if the price is right or not for the new Canon cameras. I don't think it is really fair to compare it to a 4:2:0 EX1 even though that camera does use 1/2" chips. Codecs and chroma have always had a massive premium in this industry.

A 422 EX1 couldn't cost that much more than the current one - think about it, for £2000 or so you can buy an entire separate unit (Nanoflash) that has 422 upto 160mb/s! Incorporating it into the camera would be a hell of a lot cheaper as you'd not need the casing, connectors, flash sockets and all other software and hardware in the Nano.
Could it be that Sony are protecting their higher-priced ranges and a 422 EX1 would be getting a bit too close for comfort? Shame on me for thinking such a thing!
Steve

"422 EX1 would be getting a bit too close for comfort"

Agreed Steve. The Ex1 is such a bargain Sony will have to be careful about offering any more upgrades or they'll undermine their more expensive cameras.

As far as this camera goes, i agree it's a bit pricey but apart from the 1/3 chips this is a professional package that would have been undreamt of a couple of years ago. With its codec it probably deserves to be priced outside of the prosumer AVCHD options available from other manufacturers.

I'm interested to see what the glass is like on this camera, but knowing Canon it will be great, and i like the fact that it has the 82mm diameter.

We can only speculate what the chips performance will be at this stage, but this may well be a superb camcorder.

I look forward to seeing some side by side comparisons with the EX cameras, and wouldn't be surprised if Canon's latest effort is a serious contender.

What will be interesting is if the light gathering of the larger 82mm glass will be an equalizer to the EX1's larger chips?

Nothing to do with front element filter sizes Tom - all to do with f stops (actually no - to do with T stops) and chip design and processing. I'm always suspicious of any camera manufacturer 'forgetting' to tell me what the maximum aperture is at full telephoto. This is a camera! Would you happily buy a 250mm lens with no idea what its max aperture was?

Come on Canon... or have I missed it?

We shall see. It certainly looks a handsome beast whereas the Z7 and EX1 look as if they've been involved in rear end shunts.

tom.

You've missed it, Tom, but only because we haven't really been talking about it.

The maximum aperture at full telephoto on this camera is f/2.8 -- yup, that's right.

Thanks Chris - couldn't see it anywhere on their spec sheet.

Wow! 2.8? So that's where a good chunk of the asking price is coming from! I'd love to have one but it's too far out of reach for now! Maybe the rental houses will pick them up though! The major one here is already hip to the 5D and has a couple that are always out on gigs.

Before you get overly excited about 2.8 at full telephoto, my $2000 FX7's do 2.8 at full zoom too.

It's too early to definitively say these new cams are overpriced but that was my initial knee jerk reaction along with many of you.

I suspect as well that a lot of the cost of this camera is in the lens. If it's truly L series glass, we might not see the CA issues prevalent in prior cameras.

My Canon XL-H1 has L glass too and does have CA issues. So don't get your hopes up high.

hmmm...why don't they take a 7d chip...put it in that body...with all the connections...and then add a removable lens...that works with all Canon EF lenses...

wouldn't that solve some issue....give people the DOF they want, removable lenses, the recording they want...

and then...add an external flash drive for high rate recording, instead of the 50mbps.

BUT...here it is...the XF305....

I'm still amazed at the price...when the 7D still camera is (body only) $1300.00 US.

Wish I could get a job a Canon as R&D....I'd take as many of your "wants"...and put it into a camera for 9k. !!

Okay...back to dreaming....I'll have to look at this closely at NAB.

...internal security would bury you right next to the guy that developed the 12-300mm 1.2 lens for under $200

why don't they take a 7d chip...put it in that body...with all the connections...and then add a removable lens...that works with all Canon EF lenses...Sounds obvious, doesn't it?

In reality it's not that simple. See the conclusion of my article at
APS-C or Full Frame CMOS Sensors? Not Happening in 2010 (http://www.dvinfo.net/features/canon-reveals-their-next-pro-video-cam.html#aps-c) for the
explanation why.

"...many videographers wondering aloud if Canon will build a dedicated
video camera around such large sensors, with a properly motorized lens,
XLR audio jacks and an ergonomic form factor conducive to recording the
moving image. The short answer is no.

The longer answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. At least not yet, not
this year anyway, with several important reasons why it’s not going to
happen anytime soon. And here they are (http://www.dvinfo.net/features/canon-reveals-their-next-pro-video-cam.html#aps-c)."

"hmmm...why don't they take a 7d chip...put it in that body...with all the connections...and then add a removable lens..."

You mean why don't they undermine their lucrative business in 20 grand lenses to put out a 6 grand camcorder?

hmmmm...Probably because they're not stupid.

Many posters here seem to forget that these companies are trying to make a profit, and that a surefire way to fail would be to produce something that makes their more high end models redundant. The first company to give DVinfo members what they want is likely to go bust very quickly, though i do wonder why a company like JVC don't push their heads above the parapet since they don't seem to have much to lose. Sony, Panasonic and Canon have vested interests in maintaining the status quo.

Actually Chris Hurd has already written an excellent article on why the DSLR technology has yet to make it into camcorderland. In the meantime i'm very excited about this camera which i suspect will be a serious contender alongside the eX1 and others when i upgrade later this year.

The really short answer, if you want a reason that doesn't
involve corporate politics, is that the lens just doesn't exist
yet -- and probably won't for awhile.

What will be interesting is if the light gathering of the larger 82mm glass will be an equalizer to the EX1's larger chips?

I was wondering that too Tom.

As well .. 3 onboard ND filters will hopefully avoid the need to add an external one which I have to do on almost every sunny day shoot with the XH-A1.

Any details on the audio .. do they have limiters?

Cheers.

"hmmm...

You mean why don't they undermine their lucrative business in 20 grand lenses to put out a 6 grand camcorder?

hmmmm...Probably because they're not stupid.





Dom,

I'm the first to agree that every company has to stick to their profit makers. I'm just amazed that with the continuing dropping prices of this technology....they (Canon, JVC...etc) don't diversify a bit more.

Canon has done that...it seems...there are quite a few different camcorders in their line...in the 'couple of thousand' range. Probably more than any other company.

I'm looking to spend 40k plus on a new camcorder at NAB. I own a H1 and paid 9k for it. I thought it was INCREDIBLY cheap at the time...for the quality...and still love the camera.
But with camcorders now costing anything from 4k to 10k...it's amazing the quality coming from these tech wonders. And of course...don't you think Sony, Panasonic and even Canon are DELIGHTED to produce cameras at that level because they can probably sell 8 to 1 in that price range vs. a 40k camcorder?

Thanks Chris for the excellent article on whey a 7D chip can't be used in a current camcorder configuration.

Kevin

40K to spend? You lucky man. Any ideas what you're going to get?

"it's amazing the quality coming from these tech wonders."

Absolutely!

What amazes me is the image quality coming from many of the consumer camcorders. I saw clips playing from 600 quid cameras on the Canon stand at Earl's Court and was blown away. In fact it's sometimes hard to tell them from the prosumer models costing 10 times as much.

I also saw fantastic looking clips from Panasonics £2000 mini hmc41, but even the £500 cameras produce stunning pictures. I'm thinking of getting a "consumer" camcorder and just renting when i have a job that needs a "proper" camera. I still have my 5d mkii which i love, but i'm just not busy enough to justify having £5000 of camcorder sitting in its case at the moment.
You must be doing some serious business to be looking at 40k cameras. I wish you well, and let us know what you end up with.

Bear in mind though, that while the image straight out of a camera may look superb, once it's been down the edit chain, and even more so down the broadcast transmission chain it can often go downhill rapidly. This is where higher-level and more expensive codecs come in, coupled with better optics and processing.
Steve

Good point Steve, but am i not right in thinking that the images from the HV20 for example, are identical to the XH range of cameras as far as codec's go? And of course we want the manual features that the more pricey models have, but there are consumer models around that can seriously compete with the Pro cameras for a fraction of the price. It certainly makes sense to own one of these as a second camera IMO. I doubt most of my clients would be able to tell the difference.

Canon has done that...it seems...there are quite a few different camcorders in their line...in the 'couple of thousand' range. Probably more than any other company.

I don't agree. With the current lineup and with tape capture in the Autumn of its life, there is a huge gap in the Canon lineup. Canon has is only 1 consumer tape camera with the HV40 and the current professional line A1/G1/H1 that use tapes. Now there will be a huge jump from the consumer to professional lines. Canon’s flagship consumer camera lists at $1399 and entry into this new line is $6700. If past price drops hold true they could end up at $5999 and $7199 range but this is still almost a $5000 gap.

With the release of the new Canon with SDI within $1200 of the G1S, sales of that camera will be VERY slow and I cannot see any further production. They might sell a few with a very heavy discount but it is gone. Not sure how long the A1S will be in production but with the A1S demise there will be a huge price gap in the Canon line.

Well I think that the HDV line will be out for a while longer to fill those holes.

Next camera release from them, I assume, will be the XL versions of these XF cams, which will most likely be even highed priced than the XF cams.

Good point Steve, but am i not right in thinking that the images from the HV20 for example, are identical to the XH range of cameras as far as codec's go? Absolutely right -- both are HDV. And the image from the HV series camcorders, under the right lighting conditions, can come close to matching that of the XH series.

Not sure how long the A1S will be in production but with the A1S demise there will be a huge price gap in the Canon line.That's right, and frankly I'd like to see something the same size and price of the GL2 in the AVCHD format, to replace the XH series HDV models when they're gone. Without the XH A1S or XL H1A, they'll have a big hole in between the HF S21 at $1400 and the XF300 at $6700 (and no, the D-SLRs don't count here).

Well I think that the HDV line will be out for a while longer to fill those holes.Agreed...

Next camera release from them, I assume, will be the XL versions of these XF cams, which will most likely be even highed priced than the XF cams.And agreed.

Chris,
have you had a chance to see what the resulting image is with this new camera? INMHO I think it would be a shame if it doesn't exceed the look of what comes from their 5DMarkII. I don't think that we should have to spend $8K for a video camera that isn't better than a still camera.

I haven't seen it yet, but I will on Monday morning at NAB. My contact at Canon USA told me there will be ten working samples at the show (I assume these are going to be operational market test units, since the production models aren't shipping until June). From what I understand about their NAB booth layout, Canon will have several of them tethered to a hands-on counter for touch & try, plus a couple more in a shooting gallery. Usually they'll have HD monitors showing pre-recorded sample video on a playback loop, as well as the live output, so there will be plenty of opportunities to gauge the image output quality.

Considering that the D-SLR video is delivered only via some pretty intense line skipping and tends to suffer from some serious issues, I think it's a cinch that the XF series video will meet or exceed that of the D-SLRs in terms of image quality. I'm not hammering on the D-SLR's, after all I own three of them (5D Mk. II, 7D and T2i), but let's face it, we're talking about a large sensor that skips lines and bins pixels to get HD, vs. a new three-chip sensor block that was built from the ground up for nothing but HD. I think it's safe to assume that it'll be very good quality, but we'll all find out for sure on Monday.

Chris,
MUCH APPRECIATED!! Trust me, I have been a CANON loyalist and all of my video gear is Canon. I was on the verge of considering jumping ship to something else (RED), but now i'm happy again as they FINALLY included VFR on these cameras! Don't know what took them so long, but we finally have it. Wouldn't it be great if they could get it up to 120fps without having to get a RED camera? I know there are other options out there, but i tend to stick with one. Keep up the good work!

Chris, I assume you'll already find a way to do so, but could you please evaluate the high gain and low light characteristics of the camcorder on monday? It'd be much appreciated :).

Hi Randy, we'll be limited to the lighting on the show floor, which can be harsh sometimes depending on certain factors, but I'll see what we can do.

Chris will likely be operating in an environment resembling a garage forecourt, with strip lights etc. No doubt a reviewer will be given a camera to take it through its paces in the near future, but its a bit much to expect Chris - or anyone else - to make an assessment of a camera's low light capabilities at a trade show.

I'm hoping for a fast, wide lens myself, but i think we'll have to wait a little longer to see what this camera can do. There should be an EX1r side by side comparison on vimeo within a month or so, and then we'll have a better idea of how the new Canon stands up to the competition.

I have high hopes, but let's wait and see.

Having never been to NAB, I respectfully disagree with you Dom. I'm not asking for a full blown assessment of the low light of the camera, I'm asking for an impression. I'm chomping at the bits myself to discover how good this camera is in low light so any type of information in that regard is welcomed by me. Maybe those who want lux values and charts may not care too much for it, but I'm happy for any and all info.

At the risk of sounding too ninja-esque, I would say find a low lit spot in the booth somewhere and open up the camera's iris. Perhaps a corner that isn't lit? Under a table skirt maybe? I remember seeing pictures of a canon booth a few shows ago that was lit dramatically (ie. not fully lit) and had LCD screens on the top of the trestles. There was quite a bit of spots in that booth that you could point the camera at to see how it was rendering the image. Dark enough to see how bad noise was if the camera gained up.

Now if the whole entire NAB floor is blasted with light and opening up the camera's iris would result in nothing but blown out footage, then I take it back.

Cheers.

Randy

I've never been to NAB either and am basing my thoughts on the last 2 Canon stands at UK trade shows. On both occasions the cameras were tethered, so the idea of finding a dimly lit spot was not very practical. I'm trying to picture Chris lying under a table with a tethered camera but i'm not sure that would be very productive. We really want to see how the camera stands up alongside the competition, and while i'm sure NAB has a much wider range of gear than the London shows, i doubt there will be an EX1 under the table on the Canon stand.

Then again, perhaps the cameras at NAB are not tethered at all. I don't think they used to be in London until someone walked out of Earl's Court with a very expensive broadcast camera a couple of years ago.

As in most cases, the announced price are much more than the actual selling price. A new example would be the HPX370 in which B&H have set it to $9,200. Another example would be the NX5 which ends up selling for $4,000. Perhaps we'll see something like $5,000 to $5,500 for the low model. I think companies do that just to read people's reactions.

At the risk of sounding too ninja-esque, I would say find a low lit spot in the booth somewhere and open up the camera's iris. Perhaps a corner that isn't lit? Under a table skirt maybe?
There's a much easier way. Could Chris take along some pretty hefty NDs and put those on the front, hefty enough to mean that not only does the camera have to be wide open, but also that a decent amount of gain has to be used. Then let's see the results on a representative, normal, general scene.

Ideally, the same filtration could then be put on competing cameras (the EX being the one of most interest) and we'll see how they compare.

The ND should be strong enough that so much gain is needed that the pictures won't look anywhere near good - that's not the point, it's the differences camera to camera that are relevant.

Randy

I've never been to NAB either and am basing my thoughts on the last 2 Canon stands at UK trade shows. On both occasions the cameras were tethered, so the idea of finding a dimly lit spot was not very practical. I'm trying to picture Chris lying under a table with a tethered camera but i'm not sure that would be very productive. We really want to see how the camera stands up alongside the competition, and while i'm sure NAB has a much wider range of gear than the London shows, i doubt there will be an EX1 under the table on the Canon stand.

Then again, perhaps the cameras at NAB are not tethered at all. I don't think they used to be in London until someone walked out of Earl's Court with a very expensive broadcast camera a couple of years ago.

You missed my point. I'm all for seeing how it stands up against the EX1. I'm also looking for ANY inkling to how the low light is on the camera, unscientific as the test may be.... So even though there's not much value for some in having the camera pointed at a dark corner wide open, I'm happy to hear ANY news in regards to how it looks. Of course, I'm sure Canon will have some sort of footage up soon and all this will have been for naught.

David - Good suggestion. I was actually going to ask for him to turn on all the ND filters, stop down, then gain up but felt that was a bit counter intuitive to see how the low light is. However, it would show what kind of noise characteristics the gain has. The HMC150, in my opinion, has very "clean" looking gain at 12DB. The XHA1 looks like throwup at 12DB. lol Your suggestion of bringing along NDs would be interesting. Hopefully Mr. Hurd is game?

Could Chris take along some pretty hefty NDs and put those on the front...It's a great idea, but I don't have any 82mm filters and I'm heading to the airport in 36 hours.

I'm trying to picture Chris lying under a table...It's definitely been known to happen, but usually not until much, much later into the evening.

Then again, perhaps the cameras at NAB are not tethered at all.In Las Vegas, everything is tied down... or it's gone. The wire ties spool out about a meter at the most, so you can't go very far with them. Canon's booth will have counter tops, not tables. I'll try to dig up some pics from previous shows.