Since all of my posts on this board were pretty much problem/issue-based.. just thought i'd do a 180 and go the "showcase" route and say after about a day messin with Firstlight.. i may hardly ever touch magic bullet again.. the program kicks ass... makes my 5d footage look awesome.

btw, saying that 180 analogy reminded me of how the first time i attempted to use that analogy is used 360 instead

good deal. This is a question for cineform but i'm sure they'll see this, so is there an upgrade path for Neo Scene customers?

All NeoScene users get a full $129 credit toward Neo HD, which includes FirstLight.

I agree with Marc. Had I realized how great FirstLight was, I wouldn't have wasted money on Magic Bullet. I give major credit to Cineform also for the great discount incentive for existing NeoScene customers. It certainly made my decision much easier.

I haven't really played that much with first light - but id really be interested in knowing what you do when you need to key frame exposure when you have a continuous shot that requires it? Also what do you do when you need to lighten up a specific region (someones face) and track the movement of it over the clip?

As I understand it the power of FL is all in the real-time but the trade off is that you are hamstrung when you need to do anything complex.

Paul, hardly hamstrung, you can still use everything else with FirstLight. Do you base corrections in FirstLight for speed and power windows in your NLE for the elements that need extra work. Keyframing will be in V5.0.

So I was perfectly happy with NeoScene, until I read this thread. So I downloaded the NeoHD trial..... dang it.... now I will be dissatisfied again.......

All NeoScene users do get a $129 credit towards their NeoHD upgrade -- a little more incentive.

if anyone's bored, this is the project i used firstlight (for the first time) on, that caused me to write this thread. as u will see i went sorta nuts with the presets, lol. but, in all honesty, i will vouch for the 5dm2/premierecs4/prospecthd/firstlight/encorecs4-bluray combo.. as i was able to post this under a very very tight deadline, with no major or minor problems... not even audio sync issues!

(btw, u have to go straight to the link, i turned off the embed on purpose)

MOV 2010 on Vimeo

Hey that is petty slick, nice work.

Amazing work Marc!!

thanks guys! appreciate it.

First Light is better than sex. David, make a t-shirt.

Hey Marc... Michael Bay would be proud! ;)

Seriously though, very nicely done, congrats!

First Light is a great piece color correction tool, but i'm having problem exporting cineformHD files out of premiere with the firs light corrected footage.When i playback the footage in timeline, its fine looks fantastic with the corrections, but when I export it, the correction doesn't show up, the file is exported without the corrections.And when I pause in the premiere timeline nothing shows up, it only shows up when I press the space bar to play the timeline.Can anybody tell me what is wrong with the firstlight?

2 quadcore Intel Xeon 2ghz
8GB RAM
Nvidia 8800GT 512MB
Cineform Prospect HD 4.3
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3
AJA Xena HS

Nimesh Shrestha

Hey Marc... Michael Bay would be proud! ;)

Seriously though, very nicely done, congrats!

lol, thanks alex. no wonder i thought the rock was an awesome movie. lol

Indeed it was.

But now I'm impatiently anticipating the release of The Sheriffs of Orange County II.

And yes, Twitch is great, as is most everything that comes out of Andrew Cramer...

yah.. his site is a really good reference for ae stuff... just have to make it your own style.. u may have to wait a while for the sheriffs 2.. since its only a yearly thing lol... however, i am working on a tribute to anakin skywalker which i should be posting in a couple days.. has nothing to do with the 5dmk2 however. all ae stuff.

I keep trying the cineform demo every 5-6 months or so, and everytime I keep thinking. Why do I want this?

In all honesty I have no clue what cineform can do for my workflow. And people here keep praising the allmighty.

I work with Sony XDcam EX files, in Premiere pro CS4.
Recently upgraded PC with quad core, fast drives, all the newest stuff.

Alltho FirstLight is a neat tool, It is rather anoying that I need to grade my stuff in that small window from within FirstLight app.. Thats not very clever in my oppinion. Secondly what do you do, if one clip needs two different grades, and I have already finished cutting the project?

Then there is the cineform codec/filesystem itself. The website speaks about faster playback better image quality, overall better results.

Let me recap my experiences.

Does it playback my footage faster or better? - No. Definitelly slower, and the image looks lowres with hard pixel edges. Smooth playback only in draft mode.

Does it provide additional latitude or give me any grading advantages on the 10bit conversion? - If so, I can't see it.

Does it make me finish my work quicker? - No. It takes me longer to even begin, since I need to transcode all footage into Cineform codec, and as a sidebonus it fills up my harddrive with huge files.

To top it all. When playing back a cineform preset sequence from within Premiere pro CS4, my video tap monitor goes blank everytime I swich between Programs and Source window and need to reset the playback settings. Neat. I guess it's a step forward since CS3 where the monitor went green.

Im not trying to demote cineform or say that it's a bad product. Im truelly asking, how it possibly can help me make videos better.

I would appreciate some testimonials from people who use premiere pro and cineform and how it improved their work.

Nik, I do not have PPro CS4, I still use PPro 2.0 - and many others probably do too.

With PPro 2.0, Cineform provides real-time playback of the timeline, without rendering. This is the only reliable way I know of to do so. Obviously real-time playback is needed for effective editing, so it is invaluable.

Further, in my experience, Cineform compressed files starting at FilmScan1 are indistinguishable from uncompressed. But they are many times smaller than uncompressed. Of course if you are comparing to MPEG2 files, Cineform will be 2x larger - but still very very manageable for what it does.

>> It is rather anoying that I need to grade my stuff in that small window from within FirstLight app..
Maximize the app's window for larger view?

>> Definitelly slower, and the image looks lowres with hard pixel edges.
In what mode? This is completely opposite to my experience, playback is smooth and high quality here.

>> Does it provide additional latitude or give me any grading advantages on the 10bit conversion? - If so, I can't see it.
There used to be a chart and video cap comparison on Cineform website taht illustrated its advantages for 10bit processing.

Probably others can share their experiences better than me, but I can honestly say that Cineform is a total lifesaver here.

Moreover, we have acquired SI-2K camera mainly because it allows to record in Cineform RAW natively. Absolutely awesome image quality. We record in Quality4, which matches FilmScan2 I think, just in case -but one could easily record in Q3 = FilmScan1 and get perfect results 99.9% of the time, IMHO...

Hm puzzling..

>>In what mode? This is completely opposite to my experience, playback is smooth and high quality here.

There are modes? I converted the files using HDLink, was given no options to any modes. If you are talking about Highest Quality vs Draft Quality in the PPro playback, the XDCam files play realtime no rendering in HQ. Cineform Files barelly manage to keep all frames in Draft Mode. Here are some screenshots to show what I see when the timeline is paused.

While Cineform provides better transitions from the red color, basically everything else suffers.

The has nothing to do with the codec. That is simply Premiere preview scaling, has no baring on anything really. Load both clips in VirtualDub, or AfterEffects some you can control the scaling on (as XDCAM does work in VirtualDub export to uncompressed.) Many >100% scales in NLE preview windows are terrible, designed for speed not quality -- that is one of many reasons why pros use HDSDI cards for monitoring, the program window is neither color or resolution accurate. If you don't have HDSDI, and want to see up close with Premiere preview, set 100% then set the motion filter to 200% (at least the interpolation filter is better in motion.) If you still think there is something gone wrong with the codec, you are most likely making an error elsewhere, many have tried and failed to make such a case -- this is battle tested all the way to the best picture Oscar in 2009. Now I will admit CS4 support is poor, CS3 is fast (Prospect HD) and CS5 is fast (with the Neo v5 line), CS4 is what it is with Premiere desktop playback mode (never ported the accelerator.) CS4 does XDCAM well, so stick with it is you don't need higher finishing quality.

"this is battle tested all the way to the best picture Oscar in 2009"

my vote for quote of the year

"SI-2K. Grid tested, marker approved."

The has nothing to do with the codec. That is simply Premiere preview scaling, has no baring on anything really. CS4 is what it is with Premiere desktop playback mode (never ported the accelerator.) CS4 does XDCAM well, so stick with it is you don't need higher finishing quality.

So basically what you are telling me. is that I can see the advantage after Im done working with it. After the export to final output. Not while working with it.. Not while trying to cut, and playback in real time, not while colorgrading to see what I get, but after... Can you see the flaw in that workflow?

Again.. Im sorry for sounding so negative. Im sure, Cineform is a exelent piece of software, but why cant I make it work to my advantage?

No, I see you not quite getting it. No professional uses the Premiere window to judge quality, so neither should you. If you can't afford HDSDI output and monitor, follow the steps I suggested, so you can at least confirm that error of you preview mode, then you can rethink how you should confirm a color grade. Of course you jumped in off topic on a thread about FirstLight, which is about doing color corrections that would be impossible on a MPEG2 file (in workflow and the amount of correction possible.) Again under FL it is preferable to use an external monitor for grading, HDSDI, HDMI and soon any OpenGL surface.

The screenshots are correctly taken from the program window, however my video tap monitor is a seperate one, and looks the same. However its not powered through HDSDI, but HDMI. Is this my "black sheep". Say if I purchased a blackmagic or AJA SDI out card (and a monitor which has SDI) all my issues wound be solved and I will see pristine 10bit sweetness in realtime?

I think it may be a bit of a stretch to rely on Premiere for being much more than a NLE, professionally speaking.

Personally, I only use Premiere to lock the edit - meaning, cuts.

Nothing else. No grading, no transitions, no effects. All that I do in After Effects, which I import Premiere's project into (effectively, importing an EDL.). All preliminary grading is now done with FirstLight. (If you need different grading in different parts of the clip, split the clip in VDub and grade the parts individually before edititng.)

There are no issues whatsoever with quality of Cineform display in After Effects.

So if you use this workflow, you should be fine.

I see that David beat me to it :)

Thanks Alex Ill try that

Nik,

If you are seeing something wrong on a full res HMDI (BMD Decklink Intensity, AJA Express I/O, AJA LHi, Matrox MXO2? -- not off you video card I hope) output, then talk to support, as you failure is not the codec, but potentially something upstream. A video card feed can be way unreliable -- 99% a designed for games not pro video and have al sort on inappropriate assumptions. Solution, I have suggested a simple test, VirtualDub -- that tool will not mislead. If you see problems in VirtualDub, talk to support, as you have a setup issue, and you are not experiencing a CineForm workflow.

David, while we are on the topic...

You mentioned that it is imperative to monitor video on the external video display via a pro output card like AJA etc., because "the program window is neither color or resolution accurate. " You were referring to Premiere, AFAIK.

Does this statement pertain to After Effects program window, too? I ask because this is how I monitor, in the AE window on the 2nd display, which is a calibrated NEC 2690wuxi2. And I never had any issues with color accuracy or such. But maybe I'm missing something - please advise, thanks.

Correct Im using a Nvidia card for HDMI output. I own a MBD intensity, but since that card requires me to use THEIR project preset to see anything going out, and Cineform requires me to use ITS project preset to work properly, Im out of luck.

Installed VirtualDub, whereafter I experienced that it requires me to find some codec to even load any files, to which the official website gives no info, and since Im not keen on downloading stuff from questionable sources, Im out of luck there to.

I guess I'll wait untill CS5, and try the new Neo 5, or wait untill my Scarlet comes out of the pipeline and work straight with the R3D files.

Nik, I'd recommend you go ahead and finish installation of VDub. It has many many great features, as well as filters (plugins) that you can download for it free. When you see what that free program does, you'll be very happy to have it. VirtualDub has been a staple of video editor's toolkit for many years now.

And where do you get the codecs for it?

And where do you get the codecs for it?

Nik, not sure what codecs Virtualdub is asking for. Virtualdub functions are done in AVI format so Cineform files work very well. No other codecs should be required.

this is what I get when loading cineform files

Now.. A small update. Sorry for hijacking the thread like this, but its somewhat relevant to the whole FirstLight thing, since FL is (for me) useless without premiere working like it should.

First off. I reinstalled my Blackmagic Intensity card with latest drivers, and tested the whole workflow.

In FirstLight I was plesently surprised when I found that the intensity infact did get a signal when using FL. The image was pristine in every way. Full realtime playback, and it was especially gratifying to see how the playback kept going without any hickups while scrolling the color settings. Even Redcine cant pull that off. So that part of the test was a PASS!

In AE the image seemed to be just fine, and acceptable for grading, exept the fact that I cannot feed my external monitor with a signal from AE. and ofcourse no realtime playback in AE since everything needs a ram preview.
So here is my question for you Alex. How can you live with grading a 5-10 minute project with the capacity to only watch 10 sec pieces at a time? Thats not a very fluent workflow. I want to be able to watch the whole thing in one roll to see how individual clips match up against eachother. In real time - In full res - without having to export movie every time.

In Premiere 4 I startup a project using Blackmagic preset. Jpeg. 720@50p. Import the HDLink converted clip, and - It plays back in slow motion. (both on the program screen and the external "through HDMI BMD intensity" Full ress, no drop frame, but out of sync with the audio. approx 50% slower. (is Cineform having problems with 50fps footage?) I tried interpreting the clip to 25p, and it seemed to play in sync with the audio at half speed. maybe a coincidence, maybe not. Loaded a XD cam native file into the same timeline, played back just like it should.

Read somewhere that you shoud always load Cineform preset project in premiere, to make it work properly. And obviously that fixed the slowmotion issue, but then the external monitor got no signal.

So here is the inherent issue with Cineform as I see it. It's not compatible with Premiere pro CS4 + intensity pro. The intensity will not work in a Cineform timeline, and the Cineform files will not work in a Blackmagic timeline.

Is that the test you were looking for?

Im sorry for failing to make VirtualDub work, but it simply wont, and I don't see how it would transfer into making premiere pro work. There is nothing wrong with my system. I guess the sucessfull Firstlight test confirms that.

You clearly you don't have a working CineForm install as VirtualDub works with the simpliest install from the free decoder all way to Neo3D. Contact support.

Slightly off-topic.


Since my computer got king-hit by the kieve.exe virus, I had to go back to an old Premiere Pro 1 version.

My PP2 install disk got bitrot almost from new and Adobe wouldn't replace it even for extra charge which I was prepared for, only wanted to sell me CS4 and I refused to be cashcowed like that.

That gutsache aside and out of the way, it is gratifying to discover that free Neo Player in the meantime works quite happily with PP1 which I still have a workable disk and computer for.

Thanks for your efforts David.

You clearly you don't have a working CineForm install as VirtualDub works with the simpliest install from the free decoder all way to Neo3D. Contact support.

Yeah.. obviously the thing that happened was that I uninstalled Cineform before installing Visualdub. When opening Media player suddently I got a "Medialooks" Icon embedded in the videos???. I was ready to throw in the towel, so after reinstalling Cineform and visualdub again, it worked.. But what kind of realization am I supposed to get from this.. Yeah the vid looks fine in visualdub.. so? I cant edit there.

Contact Support? Which one.. Cineform? Adobe? Blackmagic Design? Whos the one to blame? All Im gonna get is tossed around from one to the next, in the neverending blame game.. Im out.

Im telling you.. PPro 4 + Intensity pro + Cineform.. bad mix.. test that.

Thanks guys for trying.

Nik...wise decision...I think it's best....

I think it is generally accepted that not all combinations of hardware/software that were *supposed* to work on paper, actually do. Especially in the areas that push/test the capabilities of technology, particularly video post-production.

That's why it is important to find a hard/software combination that works for you, and basically lock it so not to throw off the delicate balance :)

That's what I do, in any case...

I played around with First Light, and I liked what I saw. But the program was a little too glitchy, so I uninstalled it and reinstalled NeoScene. But now I'm getting that color histogram thingy showing up on all my video clips, no matter where I open them (Vegas, Media Player, etc). I thought that would go away when uninstalling NeoHD?

Wow, that histogram is really getting on my nerves. I removed every single Cineform file on my computer and did a system restore. That dumb thing is still showing up on any video I watch.

It is user data, so we don't uninstall anything you created or changed. The latest NeoScene has the same histogram control, without FirstLight you turn it on and off through the Active Metadata Status Viewer in the systray -- look fort the "C" icon. Right click on it and on to "Active Metadata" and uncheck "Tools" or "Histogram".

I played around with First Light, and I liked what I saw. But the program was a little too glitchy, so I uninstalled it and reinstalled NeoScene. But now I'm getting that color histogram thingy showing up on all my video clips, no matter where I open them (Vegas, Media Player, etc). I thought that would go away when uninstalling NeoHD?

What kind of glitchs? I tried it as well and liked its features, it just kept locking up after about 3 minutes of playback.

Right-click the CineForm tray icon. In the Active Metadata menu item deselect "Tools". The specific menu organization has been changing lately as we're preparing for our v5 release, so it might not be in exactly the location I described.

What kind of glitchs? I tried it as well and liked its features, it just kept locking up after about 3 minutes of playback.

Well, it would just crash for no apparent reason, and then the effects I'd apply (like white balance) might not take effect until 10 seconds after I hit Play.

One of the things I really liked was the Temperature setting in white balance. A super easy way to adjust the kelvin temp of the footage in one easy slider.

Right click on it and on to "Active Metadata" and uncheck "Tools" or "Histogram".

Thanks Dave. I figured that out last night before hitting the sack.