I am debating on getting a bluray burner, is it worth it right now or is no one willing to pay for the quality.
Thanks guys.

HD has helped tremendously. Blu-ray has done absolutely squat for me. I bought a Blu-ray burner almost two years ago and have used it for one project. Even for that project, Blu-ray was not a requirement, but the client said as long as I can provide it he'd take a few Blu-ray disks "just in case".

For my clients, HD video is delivered digitally - on a thumb drive or online.

I think it's incorrect to say there's "no one willing to pay for the quality". It's not the quality they're balking at, it's the outmoded delivery format. The only reason DVD remains viable is because of the ubiquity of DVD players.

Same here, Blu-Ray hasn't done anything for me. Only one clients specifically requested it and they would have been fine if I couldn't do so. All other people have had their HD video delivered via hard drive or thumb drive.

Yes it has helped me....

It's forced me to upgrade my hardware and software, for a price that i will never get back in returns..
And all it does is allow me to say "YES, I can burn you blue-ray"...

LOL!

Well I don't do weddings, but for event/film purposes, it's certainly helped me. We were able to submit our film to festivals on BluRay like they asked, I've been able to hand off HD copies to people who've asked for them (not many) but most importantly, it's allowed my tapeless workflow to proceed because I can archive 23.5GB to a $2.50 disk that has no moving parts, and stores very well.

I don't care if I *never* deliver a BluRay to a client. The archival ability alone made the money worth it. With burners going for about $175 these days, it's dirt cheap insurance for a master, and a web version of your events.

Just curious Perrone, where do you get discs for cheap? I've thought about buying a blu-ray burner for its archiving benefits, but I was thinking the discs were much higher than that (although I haven't done any research).

Just curious Perrone, where do you get discs for cheap? I've thought about buying a blu-ray burner for its archiving benefits, but I was thinking the discs were much higher than that (although I haven't done any research).

ANTOnline.com - Verbatim 96769 BD-R 25GB 4X Branded 10Pk Spindle Box w/hard coat surface (http://www.antonline.com/p_96769-NX_582665.htm)

$25.17 for a 10pk right now. Price fluctuates. But there are similar prices all over the place give or take a couple dollars on 10. But I haven't paid more than $3 for a 25GB disk in well over a year.

I remember writing on this forum last summer that BluRay archiving had just become cheaper than miniDV tape archiving. And this was in the midst of everyone talking about how expensive it was...

Facts trump speculation every time.

[EDIT]

WHOA! I had not seen THIS deal before!!

Amazon.com: Verbatim 96909 50 GB 2x Blu-ray Double-Layer Recordable Disc BD-R DL, 10-Disc Spindle Box: Electronics

That is $11.55 for a 50GB, my last purchase of those in the fall was at $29 a disk for TDKs. Price is less than 50% what it was just a few months ago. Wonder if a new factory has come online. Look at the price history here around Sep/Oct last year: http://www.nextag.com/TDK-Electronics-50-GB-626502778/prices-html

Some clients want it, some don't care and a few have only taken it cause it's available. I only charge $25 for a blue ray but it counts as two standard copies that they won't get. It's cheap. Why not? It only takes one client to request it and you'll be in a hurry to purchase, install and figure out how to burn and also find out it takes 12 hours to burn a wedding video.

I got a 15 disc spindle from Memorex on Amazon for about $40. They have all burned perfectly and it looks twice as good then a SD disc.

Thanks for dispelling that misconception for me. Now if I could just find an external blu-ray burner for my iMac at a reasonable price (I saw a Lacie burner on BH for $350, but I need to go cheaper).

Like you, my primary purpose would be archiving. In fact, finding one at the right price would take the place of a Raid Hard Drive I was looking at.

Secondary would be advertising - although from the looks of it there may not be many takers in my market.

I recently bought a blu-ray burner (6 months) and using it for first time but I do notice with Blu-Ray becoming quite a standard, almost everyone that comes to me inquire about it and this year I have 3 out 12 clients that have signed up for it. Ratio wise that's pretty good but still not everyone cares for it..yet

Not one client asked for BR so far, beside dvd I also deliver the HD files on a usb stick which are transfered to the clients ext harddrive. Then they still can look at their video in HD either directly on their pc/laptop or by using a HD mediaplayer connected to their lcd tv. At this moment I'm not thinking about buying a BR burner.
Also BR disks are still quite expensive in Europe because of all the extra taxes, seen prizes around 75 dollar for a 10 pack.

I think a lot of wedding videographers completely miss the point with Blu-ray.

Has it helped my business? Absolutely, as I am the only videographer in the area who offers it as standard. they get blu-ray version and its a huge selling point for me and the reason I have been clearing up compared to my rivals. I show HD at wedding shows and when discussing the clients wedding I make a point of telling them that the Blu-ray will future proof their wedding so little jimmy who has yet to be conceived will be able to watch mummy and daddy in the best possible quality. Works every time.

Clients don't ask for it. You tell them they are going to have it and the benefits of why.

Very easy and brings in lots of extra bookings. Most people I speak to have a PS3 or BR player. And the few that haven't will be getting one from Tesco for probably less than 50 quid next Christmas.

I did a project overseas three years ago about Arabian horses and I did advertise for Blu-Ray disc, I sold a lot of DVDs and only a handful of Blu-Ray disc, but just the point that you produce a Blu-Ray disc will give you an automatic high-quality image to your customers that will help your business, it definitely helped mine.

Here's something I am curious about.

For those who claim BluRay is too expensive, are you shooting on HD cameras? If so, why? What's the point of doing all that work, and not bothering to produce an HD final. I agree with Steve. Don't make it an "extra cost" add-on. Make it a standard part of the package and market it. Just like those of you who moved to HD cameras marketed that.

So let's say the burner is $250. Amortized over the year that about $20 a month. People spend that in Starbucks in 2 days. Discs, even in expensive places are $10. If you can't find a way to add $10 to your prices, or shave $10 from your cost, I just don't know what to say. You have a product that some people don't even KNOW they want. When players are $75 next Christmas (and they will be as I am seeing them under $100 already) the clients will have something to put IN that player. I moved to an all HD workflow in 2008. I've shot SD exactly twice since then. My master is HD. And I produce SD or web versions when needed. I look forward to the day when I no longer need to produce SD versions.

I think a lot of wedding videographers completely miss the point with Blu-ray.

I deliver a HD file which is more versatile and equally futureproof as a BR disk. First my clients don't even need a BR player to see their wedding in HD, they just play it directly on their laptop which in 95% of the time does not have a BR player, they can watch it in HD on their lcd tv with a hd mediaplayer and they can still have that high quality HD file converted in a few years to whatever format is going to be invented after BR.

My clients can put their wedding movie completely on a usb stick and carry it around all day, they can look at it from whatever pc, laptop at their friends place, at work, wherever and whenever they want to, in HD, not in a few months or years when everybody has a BR player but today. Try to do that with a BR disk...

That alone is enough reason not to invest in BR for me, I film in HD and deliver in SD and HD, only not on a Blu-ray disk.

Perrone wrote:

For those who claim BluRay is too expensive, are you shooting on HD cameras? If so, why? What's the point of doing all that work, and not bothering to produce an HD final. I agree with Steve. Don't make it an "extra cost" add-on. Make it a standard part of the package and market it. Just like those of you who moved to HD cameras marketed that....

Many of us stayed away, because BluRay was still in the early stages..Remember all those DVD-R compatability issues?
Yeah, we bought the cameras, but that was the easy part.
Don't forget, the camera was the initial link to a very expensive chain..Many people weren't wishing to shell out more money to standalone BD burners, or extremely expensive editing systems or other hardware.
I was one of them, who was holding out for prices to drop.

I personally bought an HDV camera to get ready for the day...Unfortunately, i've also come to the realization, that it's not as simple as getting a $150 burner...
Other huge factors like sytem upgrades, encoding times, authouring and workflow issues all come into effect.
Jumping from CS2 to CS4 is challenging.

But yes, it's finally here, and there's no reason for excuses anymore...

Very interesting.

So is there anyone that believes HD & Blu-ray was a bad investment and they were bettering still shooting SD & delivering standard DVD's? Have people made back their money specifically because of HD & Blu-ray? Would you have NOT got the job without them? Just wondering. I'm weary of Sony, Panasonic, JVC, and Canon always having us upgrade every 5 years. So in 2015, will I need to buy a Panasonic 3D camera?

I'll supply the footage on whatever media they want, but I don't agree at all the USB or Hard drives even remotely deliver the same entertainment experience as a printed Blu-ray disk with artwork. You hand it to them on USB, and then field questions about why it won't play, or stutters, or what to do if they don't have the playback codec installed, or don't have a powerful pc.

You can't argue that even the cheap media players are as ubiquitous as Blu-ray players and PS3 gaming consoles. And anything you supply is one click from free multiple copies. The same owners are less likely to copy a Blu-ray disk for the same reluctance you have to invest in the burner it takes to do it with. Which is not much of an investment really for a pro. The LG burner I have burns the cheapest 2x media at 8x, so even the time it takes is vastly improved. I purchased inkjet printable 25gb disks for about $3 each. They are probably even cheaper now.

I'm with Perrone. When the Blu-ray media was expensive, I used hacks for making Blu-ray playable disks on cheap DVDs, but now with the lower prices it's not even necessary.

double post, deleted

Last time I checked my HD files played on a celeron processor laptop with vista installed on it. I also have a 69 euro WD media player (cheapest you can find) that playes those HD files without a problem. If playback might be a problem I also supply a lower bitrate WMV file so they can enjoy their HD wedding now like their supposed to and not in a few years.
And in a few years they can still go to BR or another media.
About copies, out of 100 weddings I do two ask for 1 or 2 extra copies so I don't even copyprotect my dvd's, if they want to copy, let them, they paid for it.

As I see it I give a much better service then giving a BR disk to them they can't play now because they don't have a player. BR is a nice experience, yes, but not if it is used as playback format that almost nobody has today. Like I said, over 95% of my clients don't have a BR player, yet, so why would it help them delivering a format they can't use?

By giving them a BR disk we are actually telling them what to buy in the future to be able to play it, it's like telling them "I know you don't have a BR player yet but you better buy one to see your wedding in HD." I think it's up to the client to decide what player they use to see their footage in HD and maybe they don't want a BR player but will be using a mediaplayer or laptop instead, in that case they have a nice BR disk collecting dust. By supplying them the footage in HD my clients can decide for themselves what they will be using to play it.

For weddings they pay me for a HD film and that's exactly what I deliver, giving them the opportunity to watch it right now and not later. Almost all newly weds have a laptop but maybe 30-40% a lcd tv, ofcourse that will change later but I assure they can watch their wedding at the highest possible quality right now and with a BR disk that is not possible.

That alone has been a big selling point for me and it's not by making promises they one day can watch their wedding in HD. Only if I get sufficient request I will start delivering BR disks but not with every client I work for, only for the ones that ask for it.

Oh my goodness... are we really arguing this?

You made the investment in an HD camera. You made the investment in an NLE. Buy the burner for goodness sakes. The BluRay section at my local store has quadrupled in size in 12 months. Do we need to be hit over the head with a pipe to realize the change? BluRay players are at the $100 mark. Sales of players is accelerating even in the midst of the worst recession in 100 years. 3D movies are KILLING traditional 2D movies at the box office.

Your people can't read BluRay yet? Fine. The $3 disk you hand them that they can't use YET cost you the price of a hamburger at McDonalds. The DVD you had them costs less than a dollar, and the 4GB or whatever memory unit was $10. For less than $20 in capital costs, you can deliver all three. And then write the HD master, a WMV, and an Mpeg4 version to a $3 disk and toss it in the archives.

As for constant upgrades... YES YOU HAVE TO UPGRADE every 5 years. Car dealers have to upgrade inventory at their expense every year. Clothing and electronics retailers are updating quarterly or monthly. If you want to do business, then do business. If you want to sit on the sidelines and complain that your competitors are doing better than you, then don't bother to upgrade, and keep under buying gear and staying behind the curve. I can still cut HDV on a machine I bought over 5 years ago because I bought on the high end. I bought a machine a year ago (2 actually) in preparation for 4k editing. I'm still buying every 5 years, but at the top of the curve.

How you run your business is up to you. But I prefer to be ahead of the curve, instead of behind it.

I think we videographers stare too much at the the technical side of HD while instead we have to think what benefit the customer will have from it now, why give them something they might not want or never use, even if it costs less? Why not give them something they can and will use, now and also in the future.
I don't see this at standing at the sidelines, I don't want to push a technology that is not commonly accepted yet but I want to sell something that is immediate usable and i will upgrade technically depending on the customer needs, not my needs.

The initial question was: has BR helped your business, in my case it won't make any difference at this moment if I supply BR or not and I will not loose any clients to competitors over it, I supply HD and that is what clients want and pay for. If they tomorrow suddenly start requesting BR all over I will adapt to that need but untill today that has not been the case, not even for one single client I had and have this year and next year.

Fair enough, and it's duly noted that you are in Belgium. I suppose BluRay penetration there isn't what it might be in the US, England, or Japan.

You say you've not had any requests for BluRay. Have you offered it to anyone?

On my site I state that I deliver in SD (dvd) and HD (a separate file) with the option to go to blu-ray if they have the need for that later.
Nobody ever asked about getting a BR disk, not even for my weddings I have booked for next year.

Now I"m not saying that I never will have to upgrade or I that don't see the benefit of BR, only not right now. I only am going for max customer satisfaction and that means delivering something they can actually enjoy right now and later if they are ready or have the need for that.
Chances are that they will return to me to have a BR disk made out of the HD file I deliver or ask to transcode it into another format.

If you're producing 1 BR disc from a 2-hour HD Wedding, how much time does it take to encode, mux, and burn a BR?

Is it possible in DVD Studio Pro 4 to import one batch of HD files, and then build the disc in separate HD and SD versions? Or will it require creating HD files for the BR disc and MPEG-2/aiff files for the SD disc? It would be a big plus if you only had to encode once. Not a deal breaker, just curious.

How long does it take to burn a 2hr bluray disc? Just curious.

How long does it take to burn a 2hr bluray disc? Just curious.

It's just like DVD. The time it takes is dependent on the burner. So there is no one answer. Of course it will take longer than a DVD even at the same burn speed because the 25Gb BluRay is 5 times the size of a DVD. The top BluRay burners are about half as fast as current DVD burners as well. So that also makes a difference.

Is it possible in DVD Studio Pro 4 to import one batch of HD files, and then build the disc in separate HD and SD versions? Or will it require creating HD files for the BR disc and MPEG-2/aiff files for the SD disc? It would be a big plus if you only had to encode once. Not a deal breaker, just curious.

This works in my authoring program just fine. Can't see why it would be any different in DVD Studio.

I make a point of telling them that the Blu-ray will future proof their weddingWait... I thought we were telling people 10 years ago that "DVD will future proof your wedding"...

In 10 years we'll be laughing at the supposed Blu-ray "quality".

Anyway, I think many in this thread are using "HD" and "Blu-ray" interchangeably. They are not. Blu-ray is simply *one* method of distributing HD content. It is not *the* method. In fact, I firmly believe that the optical disk as a distribution method is dying fast. It'll never completely go away, just like tape it will be used mainly for archive purposes.

Offering BluRay back in 2007 gives me an edge in the competitive market. It also makes me ready to author in BluRay now without the time wasted in the steep learning curve. I got couple signed me up because I have HD capability.

Back in 2007, BD burner was $350. Black disc is $20. Now in 2010, LG BD burner is $150 and Blank inkjet printable DVD is abotu $5 each.

I think BD helped us a lot. We did our first HD wedding back in 2007 and the groom was one of the founders of the biggest hi-tech forum in Greece. We delivered an iso file (didn't have the burner yet) and since it was a complete success, we bought one for 300 Euros and started promoting Bluray. Since then, it really gave us a boost. Many b&g's didn't know about the new format (and they still don't) but they are very positive to the fact that we give something more and when we showed them the HD footage, they knew it was future-proof. Many of them didn't have a player yet, but they loved having it in HD quality because sooner or later they'd buy one. At that time, we were one of the very few in Greece to deliver that, so in terms of promotion against the competition (though I don't like the word competition) it worked very well. The biggest amount of our weddings are now shot in HD.

We always say "Buy a PS3" though. It's the best player out there, with new firmware upgrades and it doesn't have the problems of incompatibility of other cheap players (Verbatim and cheap Samsung players for example).

And I am with Perrone in this one. We have the camcorders, we have the fast computers, it's a shame not to give this option to the client that will definitely be impressed and may choose your job easily over another equal quality videographer that doesn't offer the new format. As for the times of render, it's not that bad. We work with Sony Architect and for a 2-hour project the computer needs 1:10-1:30 hours of render (quad-core PC with Windows 7). Of course it's required that you already have your video files exported at the right MPEG format (that may be a bit slower), or Architect may re-render your footage which is bad, in both quality and time. If you have too much footage and go for H264 format, well then... it needs A LOT of time. But since wedding edits are rarely more than 2 hours nowadays, this won't be a problem.

Just a few thoughts ...

First, one of the top studios in the world doesn't offer Blu-Ray to their clients. Couples paying $15k, $20k and even $30k are not given the option for BR. So no one should think that they HAVE to offer BR. Obviously you don't.

Second, we do offer an "HD Upgrade". It can be either BR or HD-file type delivery. In our market, though, there has been very little interest in it. So far we've only had one couple upgrade. I wouldn't say at this point that offering the option of BR has helped our business, but it hasn't hurt it either.

Lastly, make sure you adjust your pricing. In our case, we charge extra for the upgrade. If you're including BR standard, then make sure you've increased your package pricing to reflect that. Too many studios out there add new equipment, software and other capabilities all the time and just keep their pricing the same. They think that it's a huge advantage to just include something new so they have something over their competition.

The problem with this approach is that you're dragging down the value of what you do in your market. So if you're going to just include BR in all of your packages, increase your pricing. Don't sell yourself short. Make sure you're actually getting a return on your investments in your business.

it is just a tool, i cannot afford to spend half a day finding somebody who has a BD burner if i need one. For $250, i can afford to get one and use it as a DVD burner if needed.

The main question I ask clients....... Will you pay extra for blu-ray. Almost all will say no since most don't even own a DVD player. The ones that DO want the 1080p (and most think HD is HD), I'll burn it to their hard drive at no additional charge thus eliminating the need for timely burns and blu-ray and they say, we'll wait a few years till prices come down. They DO want us to shoot in Full HD so they can have the ability to go to blu-ray in the future. Everyone knows its a waiting game.

Apple had the right idea by eliminating blu-ray. At the rate we are going with bandwidth over the internet, we will be streaming HD/Blu-ray/3DBlu-ray in a few years.

I'm all for not being cheap, but business is business, especially in a recession with no end in sight.

When I read your post, I thought you are in a different country.. but we are both in California... It's quite different to understand who would not have a DVD player as you can buy one in Walmart or Target for $30.

When you ask clients, they will always say NO to pay additional for BD. They all want it for free =)

The price of everything is already down. LG BD burner is about $150 each. TDK Blank BD is about $5. BluRay players can be found for $100 these days. I bought my Syvania BluRay player from Amazon over a year ago for $150. It is already affordable and not sure why still have to wait for a few years. By offering BluRay, it makes you ahead in the market but not trailing.

If your in the upper end of the market, it's a no brainier especially if it your only business. If your competing for craigslist brides, then you have to weigh your options.


Love the video light Taky. Just used it tonight for photography.

Hey Steve, that's true about criagslist bride (it's a new term for me.. hehe).. that was the part I haven't factored in.

Glad you like the light. Have you tried the Condenser Lens trick? It's very useful for me espeically in wedding reception =)

Taky

We've been shooting in HD since 2007 but started to offer blu-ray in mid 2009. I think the blu-ray did help our business especially when you put a blu-ray case in trade show, made you stand out from other videographer. But in fact, only 5 customers really sign up for the blu-ray...

Another thing we did is offer blu-ray to our previous clients since we did the wedding in HD and we save all master output in HD. Surprisingly, over 90% of our old customers interested and 70% of them get their wedding in blu-ray which more than enough to cover the cost of the investment.

I use blu-ray for every wedding - not for the client but as a store for my AVCHD files.

I'm moving from HDV (tape) to AVCHD (files) and I like to have a store of the original data - it used to be tapes, now its a mixture of tapes and discs and soon it will be discs only.

Hey Steve, that's true about criagslist bride (it's a new term for me.. hehe).. that was the part I haven't factored in.

Glad you like the light. Have you tried the Condenser Lens trick? It's very useful for me espeically in wedding reception =)

Taky

What kind of light is this and what's the Condenser Lens trick?

Paul, I think it might be cheaper to store your files in external HDD. For example, you can get a 1TB drive for $100. That's $0.097 per GB. Say like a blank BD is $5. That's $0.2 per GB. You can use the HDD dock or tray-less system for fast access.

Trayless Removable Harddrive System | L.A. Color Blog (http://lacolorshop.com/blog/view.asp?id=40)

What kind of light is this and what's the Condenser Lens trick?

That's the Comer 1800 light. You can read more here

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/235221-comer-camera-led-lights.html
Comer CM-LBPS1800 On-Camera LED Light | L.A. Color Shop (http://lacolorshop.com/products/item.asp?id=cm1800)

The condenser lens trick helps shooting in dim room while zooming in.
Comer Lights Condenser Trick | L.A. Color Blog (http://lacolorshop.com/blog/view.asp?id=39)

Just a few thoughts ...

First, one of the top studios in the world doesn't offer Blu-Ray to their clients. Couples paying $15k, $20k and even $30k are not given the option for BR. So no one should think that they HAVE to offer BR. Obviously you don't.

Second, we do offer an "HD Upgrade". It can be either BR or HD-file type delivery. In our market, though, there has been very little interest in it. So far we've only had one couple upgrade. I wouldn't say at this point that offering the option of BR has helped our business, but it hasn't hurt it either.

Lastly, make sure you adjust your pricing. In our case, we charge extra for the upgrade. If you're including BR standard, then make sure you've increased your package pricing to reflect that. Too many studios out there add new equipment, software and other capabilities all the time and just keep their pricing the same. They think that it's a huge advantage to just include something new so they have something over their competition.

The problem with this approach is that you're dragging down the value of what you do in your market. So if you're going to just include BR in all of your packages, increase your pricing. Don't sell yourself short. Make sure you're actually getting a return on your investments in your business.

Thank you for chiming in Travis.

No problem, Cody. d;-)

I include Blu-Ray as a standard with my package, not an option. I would say now a days it is hard to find a new client that does not have a blu-ray player in my market. If they do not they certainly almost always have a HD tv. For the price of players now they certainly will go out and buy the player since I am giving them the blu-ray disc. I believe your job as a videographer is to give the client the very best product available that you are capable of. Use the consumer HD and Blu-Ray buzz to your advantage. It works.

Paul, I think it might be cheaper to store your files in external HDD.

you're right but I still like the blu-ray option - I can put the disc, tapes, contracts, corespondence etc in a folder and that's all my source material stored away.