Quite honestly I am thinking about not taking the job.
I would like to either use a few still images or 2-5 second video clips of their wedding but they dont want it. In 5 years, this has never happened before to me.
The wedding is in a really nice place 250 miles away, and I only take on a certain number of weddings so I can trying to decide whether to take it or not.

Also, their is no first dance, no cake, and just the ceremony and toasts basically.

Any ideas?

Oh yeah, they want my smallest package too.

Simple. In our contract we always have a term that saying that we can use the material for advertising reasons (internet or anything else). If they don't want such a thing, they should pay something like 30% more! So they take it or they leave it.

It makes me wonder though. When we had such issues, it was always from the very rich clients. But all the rest, they always like the publicity! -:)

I never had anyone oppose using the footage before. I have a part in the contract that says I use all the footage for promotional purposes and that they agree to that.

This couple did not agree to it, but I am not sure if I can ask for a larger amount of money or not.

Do you think I could just say, well hey its 20% (or whatever) more if I cant use the footage?

I do happen to know that they have a larger budget for video then they are paying me for, and they also did not put down the budget information in the wedding application (we dont take every wedding that comes down the river)

I never had anyone oppose using the footage before. I have a part in the contract that says I use all the footage for promotional purposes and that they agree to that.

This couple did not agree to it, but I am not sure if I can ask for a larger amount of money or not.

Do you think I could just say, well hey its 20% (or whatever) more if I cant use the footage?

I do happen to know that they have a larger budget for video then they are paying me for, and they also did not put down the budget information in the wedding application (we dont take every wedding that comes down the river)

You say you are not sure wether to take the job or not then I would tell the client that it will cost them whatever % more if they do not sign a release for you to use the footage in whatever way you choose to. The % being what would make the job worth while doing and if they do not agree then they have made your mind up for you wether to do the job.

Alan

Yes, I think about 25% is fair.

They may go ahead go for that since they have a bit more money for the video budget.
I hate to lose a job just because of their querkyness after I ve already taken the time to meet them in person and everything and they are ready to hire me.

Funny, it's always the people who want to pay the least that have the greatest demands!!

If you take the job then there will be more hassles and more demands and conditions so unless I was down to my last few cents, I'd rather just take the day off !!

My contact too states that I reserve the right to use their footage as promotional material and brides have never contested it!!

Rather let some other sucker do the job and live with the worries... especially since they want the lowest rate too!!

Chris

We talk of how personal and touching the moments of a wedding film can be and yet, from this thread, it seems to be the norm that people charge clients extra for the right to keep those moments private. If I were the client, I would not hire any videographer who charged me for this.

I do not charge for this myself. Plenty of couples give me permission to use their footage for advertising, and the others get to keep their films to themselves.

Alec Moreno
http://www.1Day1ShotProductions.com

Sorry to be out of step with most colleagues here but, like Alec, I understand why clients would not want unlimited use of their video.

Apart from anything else, that would permit the unscrupulous to edit in such a way as to make them look foolish, mean, in fact anything short of defamatory. For example, one FOB declared in his speech that he'd been present at his daughter's conception. It was a mistake for he meant her birth and whilst it is no doubt a favourite "blooper" in the family, it would be inappropriate to publish it. We believe clients should not have any doubt about that.

Accordingly in our terms we promise clients that we will not release, ie lend or sell the full (complete) wedding videos to anyone but them and people they specifically authorise, though we reserve the right to play them under our control to prospective clients; we do reserve the right to play in public on our stands and in our demo disk their "Dream" wedding video (summary); we promise never to release any part to the Internet without their specific permission.

Incidentally our demos all carry equally clear restrictions on use.

Having said all that, if Silas feels that this request is symptomatic of a difficult client, in his place, and as long as I could afford to do so, I'd decline the job.

We talk of how personal and touching the moments of a wedding film can be and yet, from this thread, it seems to be the norm that people charge clients extra for the right to keep those moments private. If I were the client, I would not hire any videographer who charged me for this.

I do not charge for this myself. Plenty of couples give me permission to use their footage for advertising, and the others get to keep their films to themselves.

Alec Moreno
http://www.1Day1ShotProductions.com

I agree with Alec.

My contract states that I have permission to use the images/audio for promotional use but I receive my share of clients who request to exclude it from the contract. I never question them, and I always honor their request.

In all the celebrity events/weddings I've shot...not one client was ok with me using their footage for promotional use.

If you get upset that a potential client is only interested in your smallest package then it may be time to exclude that package from your services.

I can understand you wanting the footage for demo purposes IF you really need the footy and have little to a few weddings under your belt but I don't think it's worth losing the client over. You shoot their wedding, it turns out great, they tell their friends...you shoot friend's wedding with permission to use the footage for promotional use.
You win.

I still think that in the contract, it should be clear that the videographer may use the material for promotional reasons. Truth is, we never show publicly a whole wedding (too many things that shouldn't be good to go public), but regarding a highlights video or an edited preparation, we don't hesitate. It should be clear on the client or the client should pay an amount of money or hire another videographer.

Last August we shot this big event. It was so big, that it had members of many European royal families, businessmen and tycoons. The house where everything happened (it had a church inside!) was beyond description. Still, we had agreed from the beginning (we didn't know then about what we'd see there) and we shot and edited some breathtaking stuff that we can never use for promotional reasons.

Another one was a recent wedding of the daughter of one of the wealthiest men in Greece. She didn't want the wedding video to go to the Net, so we didn't book the job. Simple as that. When these things are clear from the beginning, there can't be any later trouble or misunderstanding.

Thing is, that most of our bookings are done through Internet. When I can't use the medium to show some very grand stuff, then I am losing potential customers that should be impressed by a huge event. It only makes sense that I will either turn the job down or I will ask for more money, because to get paid for a job is good but using the footage to bring more clients in is even better. And after all, yes, I love my job, but it's business too and I have to make a business model that works good for me. I am sure that many will disagree with the above but since all these are explained from the beginning to the client, it is 100% honest to my eyes. We don't sell a basic survival product like food or water, we sell something that if they don't want to take it from us, they'll take it from somebody else, probably with the terms of the clients. I am fine with this. It's cynical but at least it's honest.

In this economy, turn down nothing.

I had a couple who signed an agreement with me, later they asked me if I would be kind enough not to post their videos on-line. It is a one off anyway so I happily obliged. Maybe they have their reasons for not wanting to, I overheard them talking that they are not sharing their DVDs either, one each for their parents that's it. They are even concerned that relatives might borrow their video and make copies of it without their consent. I guess some couples wants privacy.

My 2 cents.

Another one was a recent wedding of the daughter of one of the wealthiest men in Greece. She didn't want the wedding video to go to the Net, so we didn't book the job. Simple as that. When these things are clear from the beginning, there can't be any later trouble or misunderstanding.



I admire you for this Dimitris. I don't have on-line booking but this wedding that you have turned down is a Gold mine in face to face demos. I can live without the online video for this one.

I have been thinking of Hollywood celebrity weddings, I assume their legal team would make you sign an iron clad agreement that the wedding video should never go public. Pay you tons of money but you have nothing to show for it. If I ever do one I'll ask for a letter signed by the Celebrity saying it was a job well done.

I get clients asking for us not to use any of their footage all the time. It's no big deal. In fact I am happy for that to happen. I film a lot of police officers weddings and they don'e want their wedding online, as they might be acting in some inappropriate way not in keeping with their job.

No extra charge, no nothing. Happy to take the booking as I have many more weddings that i can use for samples.

I think there are lot of people out there who are not comfortable with their wedding being shown to public for security or religious reasons and I honestly respect that. Heck, I didn't want same thing to happen for my wedding that's why I had a friend film it while back.

However, if the couple fails to read the fine print then I am sorry, it's their loss and there is nothing they can do about it.

If I were the client, I would not hire any videographer who charged me for this.

I think he's right here. I think asking for more $$ is pretty futile. She's obviously against being shown publicly & online, yet now you're charging her more to not do it. I think a bride wouldn't understand why you're charging her more money so you don't post her footage online (I get it, but I don't think she will). Some clients probably view it that they are the talent, and should be discounted when you use their footage for marketing purposes. My guess is she'd become upset & just look elsewhere.

If you want the job or not, or want to deal with her or not might be the bigger question. Go ahead & ask, but I'd expect to be turned down on it. I could be wrong though.

I admire you for this Dimitris. I don't have on-line booking but this wedding that you have turned down is a Gold mine in face to face demos. I can live without the online video for this one.


Well, Noel, I forgot to mention something. Although we were thinking about going into that wedding anyway for the reasons you mention (and you are very right on these), the bride didn't want the cameras to cover the preparation either! Now, the preparation is for us (and I think it's the same for every event videographer) a hugely important part of the overall product. It gives you beautiful imagery. So, if we said yes on this too, we would deliver a final product clearly inferior to what she may have expected (and I am afraid we'd met many more restrictions once we were there).

But, it's not that we are some kind of brutal businessmen (on the contrary). There were a couple of couples ( :) ) that didn't want us to upload their videos on the Net. We agreed to that, although we didn't have to, because sometimes keeping a client happy is more than delivering a good product. But to be honest, I don't know if we'd agree if it was an amazing wedding that we wanted to show the world.

Dimitris point taken. Nothing worst than a couple who wants to control how things are done, good call then for walking away from this one.

Well the pendulum swings in a different way as well. We had a client request a clip of a blooper from their wedding before the edit was complete, they then placed this blooper on YouTube to laugh along with the world. We since then we have been contacted by "America's Funniest Videos", "It Only Hurts When I Laugh" and other reality clip shows for the rights to the clip...which my contract clearly states I own-but we have not released anything from our office. As a fluke it was also featured on the Ellen Degeneris show and a national news broadcast. Lets remember it was the client that placed it on YouTube-not me. Now the client is wanting to sue for big bucks because they are upset due to all the noteriety it has recieved...hmmm again we did not place it on YouTube. Seems like keeping it private might be easier in the long run if these people were concerned about it.

I think the proper approach when these situations come up is to simply charge an extra amount for the 'right' to keep their footage private. No doubt one of the reasons this couple came to your studio was because of videos of other couples they saw on your website or blog. It's a simple fact that we must show our work to secure additional work.

So I would just explain to the couple that your business depends on the ability to show your work, but that you understand sometimes couples would prefer that their videos not be made public. In those cases you charge a fee to compensate for the lost marketing potential. We prefer to charge a flat fee instead of a percentage, because the fee is based on the marketing potential and not on the size of the package they book. Our fee to suppress the footage is $250. It's enough to discourage the people that don't really care about it, but not so much that the others feel like we're trying to gouge them.

Ultimately, though, you have to determine if this couple is going to be a hassle in other ways. Some couples just like their privacy, and some couples are just demanding every step of the way. If this couple falls into the latter category, I'd recommend passing on the job.

Now the client is wanting to sue for big bucks because they are upset due to all the noteriety it has recieved...hmmm again we did not place it on YouTube.


That is not so pleasant. I don't know about how law works there but I think it's common sense that they can't do anything to you, since as you said, THEY uploaded their video.

Now the client is wanting to sue for big bucks because they are upset due to all the noteriety it has recieved...hmmm again we did not place it on YouTube.

Interesting story. Although you got out of trouble since you didn't upload it, it would have been interesting for marketing purposes if it was uploaded on your youtube channel. :)

I think it's crazy to charge people extra who don't want their videos posted, and short sighted in the sense of keeping your good reputation.

First, although legally the videographer most likely holds the copyright to the images, so what? Is it really a big deal to do a client the favour and NOT use their stuff for promotion? I mean, come on, we all do so many weddings are we that desperate for promotional material?

Use other weddings for promotion, do the client a favour and get them in your good books. It can only help you for future referrals, as opposed to being the guy who wanted to gouge them (in their minds, anyway).

Vito, it's not crazy. For us it's common sense. Showing off our work is what brings in new business. On top of that, we are constantly improving our work, so it's very important to us to constantly be showing off new stuff. If you have a website with 3-year-old samples on it, then this probably doesn't apply. But we update our website regularly. Any time we complete a project we also share it on Facebook and our blog (which is currently being redesigned and is outdated at the moment, lol) to generate activity and business.

So for us, it is an inconvenience to not be able to share our work. The client is asking us to hold back on marketing that could create new business for us. We think that should come at a cost.

You mentioned referrals, and I think that's an excellent point. If you have a couple that comes along and specifies they want their video kept private, and you just go along and do it for them ... then don't you think they will mention this to their friends as they refer them along? Now you'll potentially have more people wanting their videos kept private.

The bottom line is there is no wrong or right here .. or crazy. It just depends on what you're willing to accept as a business. For us, we feel it's important to share as much of our work as possible and keep our image fresh and updated .. so it makes sense to charge a premium or fee to anyone who wishes to restrict us on that.

I'm on the side of the "this is crazy". You are in the business of providing a service to a client, not self promotion.

You and I love to disagree sometimes, Travis, and this is one of those times. It looks like you're worried that one couple who wishes to be discreet will lead eventually to a bunch of referrals from discreet couples, and eventually you'll have nothing to show.

I don't believe it for a minute. I think you would just be looked on as a vendor who does his best to make your clients happy.

It's human nature to want to exhibit ourselves, and I find the vast majority of couples are flattered to have their stuff shown. The rare couple that asks to stay private is of so little concern, that I would never risk my referral base by charging them to keep their stuff offline.

You're right that your business model depends on regular updating and posting of your online material. I get that, and I can't argue with it. It works for you. But really, are you telling me that you are anywhere near short of material? If you charge them, you still can't use the material. So all you have is a few extra bucks, and perhaps some resentment from your client.

I shoot for a company here who does exclusively super high-end events, and one of the things he told me is that I can never post anything that I shoot for him, as his clients value their privacy. Unbelievably, he has nothing online. Nada. Zip. Yet he's completely jammed with high end contracts because his clients know they can count on him.

I'm on the side of the "this is crazy". You are in the business of providing a service to a client, not self promotion.

Promotion is one way of gaining new business. Are you saying you're in business to only serve your client and you do no promoting of your business?

You and I love to disagree sometimes, Travis, and this is one of those times. It looks like you're worried that one couple who wishes to be discreet will lead eventually to a bunch of referrals from discreet couples, and eventually you'll have nothing to show.

I don't believe it for a minute. I think you would just be looked on as a vendor who does his best to make your clients happy.

It's human nature to want to exhibit ourselves, and I find the vast majority of couples are flattered to have their stuff shown. The rare couple that asks to stay private is of so little concern, that I would never risk my referral base by charging them to keep their stuff offline.

You're right that your business model depends on regular updating and posting of your online material. I get that, and I can't argue with it. It works for you. But really, are you telling me that you are anywhere near short of material? If you charge them, you still can't use the material. So all you have is a few extra bucks, and perhaps some resentment from your client.

I shoot for a company here who does exclusively super high-end events, and one of the things he told me is that I can never post anything that I shoot for him, as his clients value their privacy. Unbelievably, he has nothing online. Nada. Zip. Yet he's completely jammed with high end contracts because his clients know they can count on him.

We do tend to end up on opposite sides of a discussion sometimes. At least we disagree respectfully. d;-)

To be honest, our policy is not in place because we're afraid of getting to the point where we can't show any of our work. It is in place because the client is asking us to do something outside of our standard business practice, and we believe that in this particular case that warrants an extra fee.

The beauty of our system is that you don't have to enforce the fee if you don't want to. We use the fee to discourage anyone who isn't truly serious about keeping their footage private, but we make exceptions too. Several years ago we filmed the governor's daughter's wedding and he asked us to keep the footage private. He was specifically inviting us to film the wedding and keeping all media out of it. We ended up in a compromise where we didn't charge a fee and got to use their highlights online as well as show off the DVD's in our studio during consultations. It worked out perfectly and the results gained us new business we might not have gotten if we had just rolled over and kept everything private.

Anyone familiar with our studio knows that we go above and beyond in terms of the product we deliver and the service we provide. If you have any doubts, just check the reviews on our website. But we also believe there has to be a line to that service. We aren't going to do just anything for a client simply because they asked us too. I know of studios that will give anything and everything away to a couple for free in the name of 'customer service'. I think that hurts your image as a business in the end. People will respect your studio more if you're providing great service and charging for special requests. The studio that does anything extra for free is sending the message that the service or product isn't worth much ... in my opinion. In the end, you can always make exceptions to your policies when you feel it's the best solution.

You pass on extra costs to your client. Not posting their footage doesn't cost you anything extra, so you don't charge extra. Keep your clients happy, it pays off. Positive word of mouth is the best promotion you can get, negative word of mouth will send you broke despite your ads.

Let me just thank you all for your input and say this:

1) We never use anything that would make the couple look bad, foolish, or dumb.
2) We only use stuff for a promotional type thing.
3) While I would not mind this at all, this wedding is hundreds of miles away in a nice place and THE ONLY REASON I even agreed to go that far in the first place was because of all the great shots I would get in this beautiful location.

So hundreds of miles away, smallest package, and not able to use the footage AT ALL, not even a nice still image = not worth it me unless they want to pay a tad more.

And yes I have stopped offering the smallest package.

I only shoot so many weddings a year and it means alot to be able to use the footage.

We do tend to end up on opposite sides of a discussion sometimes. At least we disagree respectfully. d;-)

I am going to take advice from the "Inner Circle" people because they know their stuff. Look at Travis's website. Great work. He has had great advice on this forum. Thanks Travis!

For creative professionals, we sure have a way of forgetting to be creative when it comes to sorting through "problems" like this...

Take production stills of your crew in the environment, shoot extra footage of the sights WITHOUT the B&G in them and throw the content into your promo with a description that says something like "we even travel to exotic locations to capture your special day, like we did in Bali for Ed & Susan (no last names)"...

You were there, you can prove it, you have pictures and no one is injured.

And then when the B&G find pictures and ask why we posted images or a few seconds of footage from THEIR wedding, whether they are in or not we get sued. Very creative. Their wedding planner says"XXXX and XXXX are very private people"

No images
No video
No 2-3 second clips
no prep
smallest package
250 miles away
barely any of the norms
no way without good pay

Oh yeah, let me mention they lost their DJ too.
There's something weird with this one I think.

Rainer, no disrespect to you or how you do business, but 'not using footage' does cost us something. It costs us the ability to impress other potential clients with our work on that project. One of the biggest problems in our industry is that people seem to think something is a 'cost' only if it actually costs them money (like buying equipment or software).

The truth of the matter is that you have many 'costs' in your business that have nothing to do with spending money. The more successful businesses generally do a better job of tracking ALL their costs, not just expenditures.

As this thread begins to wind its way to a conclusion is it worth reminding people that by posting anything on You Tube you automatically give them (Google) the copyright in perpetuity.

Of course I am no lawyer but photos of MY crew in an exotic location doing THEIR jobs in an environment close to but not AT the ceremony would HARDLY involve any breach of contract IN MY UNLEARNED OPINION. If they have an issue with THAT, back away NOW. Can you imagine what is in store for you during post production???

I have signed MANY NDA's (non disclosure agreements) in my professional career. This specific case is bizarre.

This is one of MANY reasons I leave weddings up to you folks... Corporate and broadcast can be hard enough...

I am going to take advice from the "Inner Circle" people because they know their stuff. Look at Travis's website. Great work. He has had great advice on this forum. Thanks Travis!

Thanks, Silas ... but make sure you're always choosing your own path too. Don't just listen to me because I have lots of posts, lol. d;-) Always happy to help, though.

Shaun: This is deff one wedding I wont regret being at whatever they pay since I have another wedding the next day at a really nice location early in the morning. And yeah, I think they might have some "special issues."

Travis: Thanks for the words of wisdom, love your site and advice.

There is this team in Greece that does event photography for VERY high-end people. Nobody knows them, there is no sight of photo in their website. Still, they book high-end weddings. This is good for them. They have extremely good marketing and management and they dont need the Internet.

Now, they want us to work with them for some weddings. We know we don't have a chance of showing anything online if we take the jobs. Also we have fixed prices in our packages, we won't charge extra if somebody is richer than the others (I know that this is something that doesn't need to be said, but there are people that act otherwise, unfortunately), it all depends on what the client wants.

So, since I can book a wedding with the freedom of using the material and one other without that freedom, and all that for the same money, then what's the reason of choosing the second one?

It's not a matter of respect to the client. You respect your client when you talk about it from the start. Now, if you put out a video that makes them look stupid or something, then you may not have any legal issues (since they agreed), but that definitely will make the videographer look even more stupid and incompetent. But this is not what I am talking about. I think that when you treat the video with respect, nobody will say a bad thing.

And now a bizarre incident that reverses all the above. We recently did a wedding and the groom was a police officer but not a usual one. We had a serious suspicion that he was one of those undercover guys that infiltrate anarchist groups and do the inside jobs! He didn't tell that to us exactly but we noticed certain things that -almost- proved those thoughts. Issue is that the bride wanted us to upload photos and videos on the Net, but we told her "we'll see, we don't upload all of our works" (and it's true) but the thing is that we also thought "if we upload that stuff and some certain people see that, someone is going to have a real problem"! So, we didn't. True story.

This is the first time this has happened to me, and as far as I dont know this couple are not super high end or cops or anything. In fact I have their profession info and its just normal stuff.

I would take the job except its super far away. And kind of weird with no prep, no cake, no dance. And I will still take it if they want to pay $250 extra.

In ALL SINCERITY... Silas, may you get what you need from this and have no headaches or "hangover" from it.

My OPINION (which coupled with a bus ticket will get me on the Skytrain here in Vancouver...) is that anything used to promote your business SHOULD be given the blessing from the client IF IT IDENTIFIES THEM in any way, much as one would ask for a letter of reference.

I ask my corporate clients if I may post their commercial or a snippet of interviews contained within a teaching/promo video. I also ask if they would be willing to provide me with a text testimonial I can use in marketing materials. My FEELING is that it is better to have enthusiastic supporters of your work singing your praises than disappointed and disgruntled clients complaining about your ethics.

I know first hand how frustrating it can be - most of my BEST work has been completed under NDA's or flat out belongs to someone else (another producer whom I have freelanced for) or belongs to a broadcaster for whom I used to work. I have held off getting a demo reel together for a really long time because of this. Just now am I content that I have enough material to "throw together" to showcase at least SOME of what I am capable of.

Quite honestly I am thinking about not taking the job.
I would like to either use a few still images or 2-5 second video clips of their wedding but they dont want it. In 5 years, this has never happened before to me.
The wedding is in a really nice place 250 miles away, and I only take on a certain number of weddings so I can trying to decide whether to take it or not.

Also, their is no first dance, no cake, and just the ceremony and toasts basically.

Any ideas?

Oh yeah, they want my smallest package too.

If this couple is giving you this kinda of trouble now...is it really the type of client you want to do business with? Will it be worth it?

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAA!
IS it worth it???

Not unless they pay the extra money, I thought we clarified that in this thread earlier on.
I have not heard back so I doubt they will have a videographer, but if they choose to pay the extra $250 then great.

And Shaun, I agree, just I am not interested in driving that far unless it promotes my business as well with their blessing OR they pay a tad more for my trouble.

Ha! My bad Silas! Kinda skimmed over this thread!

let me add my $.02... at the beginning - I'd charge anyone extra just for driving 500miles to a gig - doesn't matter what kind of pkg they chose. Just think about it - 250 miles each way it's an additional 8 hrs without rest or sleep. That means your 8hr gig turns into 16 hrs. And you have extra expenses like gas and car wear. You said you have another gig following day - are you going to have enough time to recharge all batteries and prepare the equipment? And finally, lets say you finish the first gig at 10pm - you'll be back home at 3am. And next gig starts at noon? and most likely you have another 1-2hrs of driving there. That leaves you with merely 7-8hrs of rest and repacking. And that will also reduce your creativity for the 2nd shoot. The 2nd couple booked you for your style and you might have big problems trying to deliver what you promised because you're too tired.

as far as the privacy issue - i have no problem with giving up on advertising. Happy customer is more important then 2-5 secs of footage.... as long as I feel being paid fair.

They have a travel charge already, the wedding ends early and i'll be out of there and back and ready for the next day no problem. And my smallest package 4 hour gig can;t turn into a 16 hour gig unless I am getting paid cause I have bills to pay hahahahhahaahahhaaa.

I think this thread can end now. Lots of Laughter.

Please read everything before you post everyone.

I am Rolling on the floor laughing!!
Wow you would think I was just messing around from some of the reponses. GEEEEE!!!!