As a professional cameraman having now used a Z1 since they first came out I should like to offer my opinion as to why if considering purchasing a Z1 you may (read will) be better off waiting to see the new Panasonic and JVC cameras first.

Bad points:
1. Consistently loses time-code (4 frames) when set to the PRESET position. This occurs everytime the camera is switched off and when the heads power-down (after a few minutes of non use). A 'work-around' is to only shoot in REGENERATE mode.

2. Very slow to record sometimes (as much as 5 seconds) after pressing the record button. And this happens occasionally when you have just done another shot, not just after not shooting for 3 minutes when it always does it.
Do not use the Quick Start facility as this also causes the camera to drop time-code.

3. Camera is 2 stops (12db) 'slower' than PD170.

4. Daylight (Outdoor) factory white balance setting and also white balances done manually are incorrect and overly 'cool'.

5. Headset level very low even when set to loudest position.

6. Main operating control Iris button is positioned very poorly among other identically sized/shaped buttons. When hand-holding this means you keep accidentally hitting the wrong button. To turn the Iris control knob requires taking left hand away from supporting camera. A work-around' for the Iris button would be to be able to assign the it to one of the Assignable User buttons.

7. Cassette mechanism very 'fiddly'. I would imagine almost impossible to use with gloves on.

8. Sony 'Service'. I have an excellent relationship with my Sony Dealer but have had no response from Sony Head Office here (in Sydney-Australia) to any of these problems.

I should add that these problems are not just limited to MY camera but other Z1's I have either seen myself or have heard about from other professional camera 'folk' .

Of course there are many good points about the camera too - exceptional picture quality, great LCD, access to both PAL/NTSC shooting, personal control etc, etc, etc. but - like I said at the start - if you are thinking about getting a new camera - WAIT.

Hey Tony,

I'm also a doco maker from Sydney. I know your work.

I'm glad to read your post, because I hired a Z1 the other day, and found exactly the same sorts of issues you've described. Actually, I've been wondering why no one else (seemingly) has commented on these things.

The iris control layout definitely makes it very difficult to smoothly adjust aperture while you're shooting (if you switch between auto aperture, and manual, as I do frequently), and the mass of very similar feeling little buttons on the left side meant that, at least on my first shoot, I kept missing the auto focus button (the one used to quickly override manual focus) which has been such an easy way to focus with the PD150.

One thing I will add is that the hand grip on the right is formed in such a way that I really had to arch my right hand back to hold the camera one handed (while trying to adjust aperture, for example). As well, when searching for the most natural two-handed grip (and I default to a more-or-less 'SLR with telephoto lens' type position), I found the fingers of my left hand tended to end up on the focus ring (not in a good way) - where they would very easily shift focus.

I assumed that if I bought a Z1 I would end up attaching a long tripod plate to the camera and resting that on the heel of my left hand - or customising a bracket of some kind, so that the weight of the machine would be supported, while the fingers could rest lightly on the focus or zoom rings (in a good way).

These handling issues have been weighing on my mind - especially in the light of the new JVC with it's genuine shoulder mount layout.

As a final comment, I did find zooming in and manually focussing on the Sony to be fast and easy - the camera didn't focus as quickly and reliably as the PD150, using the old 'zoom in and hit the autofocus override button technique'.

The coloured focus-assist function was a nice asset to have, and it's another reason to look forward to the JVC (which also has this feature - and no auto focus).

Cheers

Nigel

Hi Nigel
You did a very sensible thing that I would recommend to everyone contemplating a new camera and that is to rent (or borrow) one for a day and actually use it on a real shoot. The pictures and specs in the glossy pamphlets look great but using the camera in a real situation is a better test by far.
I did a job the other day for a Japanese company who wanted me to shoot (in NTSC) straight DV (and 4x3 too!!!), and I must say even the pictures in DV looked far and away better than any I saw on the regular DV cameras (150/170 etc).
Cheers, Tony

Tony, Nigel . .thank you for this thread.

As a passionate Canon XM2 user and having now been in the biz for only 3 years, I'm collecting and researching masses of information about the pros and cons of HD work - from lighting thru' capture and thru' to editing. I'm watching and waiting. But your post has given me something to go and experience at a shop/outlet to observe for myself. Very valuable thread indeed. Oh yes!

Excellent, "Cold-Light-Of-Day" real world experiences here - thanks!

HD is a very fine technology. I can wait . . . maybe a year's time? I'll see . ..

Grazie

I just finished a 2 month shoot in India with this camera. It held up beautifully under very trying conditions of temperature, humidty, and being bounced around in the back of a jeep on roads that made my teeth loose. I have to take issue with a number of your points.

As a professional cameraman having now used a Z1 since they first came out I should like to offer my opinion as to why if considering purchasing a Z1 you may (read will) be better off waiting to see the new Panasonic and JVC cameras first.

If you need a camera now there is no option. The JVC is delayed and who knows how ugly its warts will be. The Panasonic is 6 months away.



1. Consistently loses time-code (4 frames) when set to the PRESET position. This occurs everytime the camera is switched off and when the heads power-down (after a few minutes of non use). A 'work-around' is to only shoot in REGENERATE mode.

Regen is how I've been shooting for five years. Preset is unnecessary in the vast majority of shoots. I'll take your word for it that the problem is there in all models and of course it would be nice if this problem was fixed but I never encountered it.



2. Very slow to record sometimes (as much as 5 seconds) after pressing the record button. And this happens occasionally when you have just done another shot, not just after not shooting for 3 minutes when it always does it.
Do not use the Quick Start facility as this also causes the camera to drop time-code.

I used the Quick start facility exclusively and had no problem with broken code. But I had no reason to use preset t/c.



3. Camera is 2 stops (12db) 'slower' than PD170.

It's also a lot less noisy than the pd170 so shooting at +12db is almost unnoticeable. While not as good a low light camera, it's useable in all but extreme low light situations. A variable intensity on-camera light helps a lot, though, in many situations


4. Daylight (Outdoor) factory white balance setting and also white balances done manually are incorrect and overly 'cool'.

I have not found this at all.


5. Headset level very low even when set to loudest position.

I use a low impedance headphone and the level is fine.


6. Main operating control Iris button is positioned very poorly among other identically sized/shaped buttons. When hand-holding this means you keep accidentally hitting the wrong button. To turn the Iris control knob requires taking left hand away from supporting camera. A work-around' for the Iris button would be to be able to assign the it to one of the Assignable User buttons.

I have no problems with either, positioning my hand differently and having trained my fingers to find the buttons and turn the knob.


7. Cassette mechanism very 'fiddly'. I would imagine almost impossible to use with gloves on.

This may be the weakest point of the camera. Not as good a mechanism as in the PD150/170


Of course there are many good points about the camera too - exceptional picture quality, great LCD, access to both PAL/NTSC shooting, personal control etc, etc, etc. but - like I said at the start - if you are thinking about getting a new camera - WAIT.

With JVC's reputation for build quality I wouldn't tout that camera without having field tested it extensively. As for the Panasonic it's six months away and a completely different beast. At this point anyways, it will be of limited use for documentary production.

David

Don't forget JVC records only 24-30 Hz, while Sony records 50-60 Hz, so unless shoot film, it's of limited use. All broadcast is 50-60 Hz, even 720p. The JVC not have auto focus and JVC brand is hardly used in broadcast despite their wide product range, low pricing. You can deinterlace Sony or use CF mode and get 25-30 Hz, and 24 Hz easily with slow down. JVC claims magical way get smooth non-jerky 24-30p pans. You can't do it without losing resolution.

Radek

Hi David:

I am glad you took issue with all those points. I totally agree with you in basically all of them.

I also shoot primarily with Regen mode instead of Preset in ALL of the cameras and formats I have been shooting. No use for Preset for me.

The low light capability difference is not really that pronounced compared to the PD170. In fact I find this camera to be better in low light than the Sony PD170. Why? After enabling Black Stretch and using gain even at 12 db, the camera out performs the Sony PD170 providing better chroma and a much cleaner image than the PD170 although somewhat darker. This is something I can fix in post if I have to. With the PD170, I would get lots of grain even after fixing it in post. And one more thing about the low light issue, if you are shooting in HDV mode for downconversion to DV, to gain more low light capability, you can actually shoot on 1/30 shutter speed without losing much vertical resolution as if you were to shoot with the PD150-170 in 1/30 shutter speed. The loss in v. resolution with the Z1 is minimal even after downconverting to DV, while with the PD150-170 it is considerable. So if you need more light, go to 1/30 shutter speed with confidence, you gain one full stop without much picture quality loss and, at that that point, with Black Stretch enabled and gain set at 12db (you can even go to 18db w/o as much grain as the PD170), you are actually getting a better picture in low light than the PD170 !!!

You need to know how to use this camera before saying it is no good in low light.

For the headphones volume level, I found that it is extremely loud at the highest setting, much louder than the PD150-170. He must be using high impedance headphones or somehow there is a problem with his output. I am quite surprised he would say something like that. I found it to be actually quite the opposite.

About the white balance being cool after white balancing, not an issue for me. And even if it was an issue, Sony gave us a WHITE BALANCE SHIFT which we can customize to our liking. Want to have a warmer picture all the time after white balancing? ... have one of the PP settings with WHITE BALANCE SHIFT set to a warmer setting. After white balancing, you can make your picture look ORANGE automatically if you wish. (exagerating here).

About the iris control, actually I find it a blessing to have this control instead of the ridiculous wheel on the PD150-170. It may not be as good as having the iris control on the lens but I find this is the best iris control of any small DV camcorder short of having it on he lens.

About the placement of the other controls, I found this to be a much better layout than the PD150-170, with switches for White Balance, Gain, etc. instead of menu driven controls or buttons. The Function buttons are another great thing in this camera.

Beeing used to shoot with bigger cameras, I find this camera to be a blessing in terms of controls layout. And the focus ring and focus control beats by a mile what you find in the PD150-170. There is just no comparison whatsoever.

I can say with confidence that the Sony Z1 is one of the best cameras I have purchased in my long career as cameraman. And I have purchased, rented and owned many !


I just finished a 2 month shoot in India with this camera. It held up beautifully under very trying conditions of temperature, humidty, and being bounced around in the back of a jeep on roads that made my teeth loose. I have to take issue with a number of your points.



If you need a camera now there is no option. The JVC is delayed and who knows how ugly its warts will be. The Panasonic is 6 months away.




Regen is how I've been shooting for five years. Preset is unnecessary in the vast majority of shoots. I'll take your word for it that the problem is there in all models and of course it would be nice if this problem was fixed but I never encountered it.




I used the Quick start facility exclusively and had no problem with broken code. But I had no reason to use preset t/c.




It's also a lot less noisy than the pd170 so shooting at +12db is almost unnoticeable. While not as good a low light camera, it's useable in all but extreme low light situations. A variable intensity on-camera light helps a lot, though, in many situations



I have not found this at all.



I use a low impedance headphone and the level is fine.



I have no problems with either, positioning my hand differently and having trained my fingers to find the buttons and turn the knob.



This may be the weakest point of the camera. Not as good a mechanism as in the PD150/170



With JVC's reputation for build quality I wouldn't tout that camera without having field tested it extensively. As for the Panasonic it's six months away and a completely different beast. At this point anyways, it will be of limited use for documentary production.

David

As a professional cameraman having now used a Z1 since they first came out I should like to offer my opinion as to why if considering purchasing a Z1 you may (read will) be better off waiting to see the new Panasonic and JVC cameras first.

So how much are you floggin' your Z1 for?

This is great!

We are getting information out there that will help people make informed choices when considering this camera.

My previous post was much more focussed on first impressions of handling the Z1 than on technical issues. In terms of image control, and image quality the Sony is an outstanding piece of technology, and it's obvious Sony have tried to give serious users much more control than their previous products at this price point. Can you believe Sony even give you options for the level of steadyshot?

I was aware of all of the image options and issues David and Augusto listed above, and agree with them. I simply didn't have the time to play extensively with all of the options. How much one could tweak white balance for just the right look was not the biggest issue. I had to shoot several hours of tape for a doco, and my main concern was being able to set up quickly for each shot, or make adjustments while shooting without compromising the shot.

If you're shooting with a tripod, and everything is relatively controlled - many of these handling issues may be much less significant. But when you are shooting on the run, I think many people will find themselves hitting the wrong button, or destabilising the camera moving their hand to manually adjust aperature, for example.

The aperture wheel of the PD150 was poor - I don't think the Z1 has solved that issue. What's the problem with putting the aperture ring on the lens, close to the body like on interchangeable lenses? The realistic goal of any design would be to maximise creative control without compromising the result - if you have to look at the camera while shooting, your attention, however subtly, will shift from your subject and your shot.

Having said that, none of the handling issues put me off using the Z1 - rather I was thinking about finding solutions to make it work for me.

What has given me much more hesitation over the last few weeks of visiting dvinfo.net has been the passionate technical debate about how unacceptable HDV is in 1080i or 720 24/25/30p depending on whose system you favour. I can't believe how many seemingly knowledgeable people have such divergent views (with impressive-sounding arguments to back them up).

All I know so far is - for a few thousand dollars we can now acquire images the quality of which we would have killed for even twelve months ago.

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi David and Augusto.
Sorry for slow response but am in (slightly!) different time-zone.
You both make some intersting points some of which I agree with and some not.
I too just came back from some rough spots (in Africa) and yes the camera held up well as have all the Sony DV cameras I’ve owned previously (VX1000, PD150) so no issues there.
I also agree about using REGEN mode – it makes changing rolls much faster as no stuffing around changing roll numbers and as long as the roll number is on the tape the editors are quite happy.
I also agree with you Augusto that the gain on the Z1 is excellent, but as I often had to use the higher gain settings on my 150 (I do a lot of verite shooting and always prefer to go with available light where ever possible) it still doesn’t get around the fact that in a situation where on the 170 you would be shooting with no gain on the Z1 you are already at +12 and that when you run out of gain on a Z1 you would still be on +6 on the 170 with two more stops to go.
With regard to shooting at a slower shutter speed I often do this (down to 3fps sometimes) but in situations where I’m shooting static shots. Most of my work is following people (with a sound-recordist shooting 100% sound) so a lower shutter speed is not an option. I did this once when shooting a chap giving a speech at a podium and it was OK as I kept the shot size to a waist shot and he wasn’t moving around very much but fortunately filming chaps standing still at podiums isn’t the bulk of my work.
With regard to the camera giving incorrect white balances in both the factory and manual settings. Yes it’s great being able to ‘on the fly’ go warmer or cooler (I have my assignment button one set to go warmer and three to go cooler) but standards are standards guys. What if different camera makers decided to each have there own ‘factory standard’ – what if –18 tone wasn’t actually –18 or globe manufacturers decided that daylight globes shoud be 5,100K and not 5,600k – I rest my case on that issue. I feel the same about the time-code too – if it doesn’t work properly then don’t include it as a feature of the camera.
David you say you don’t have an problem with the Quick Start feature because you use REGEN. Of course in that mode it is not a problem but how do you feel about a camera that sometimes takes 5seconds or more to actually start recording from the time you press the start button!! And like I say it’s not just after the heads have gone down. I’ve missed many shots through this. Perhaps your shooting is at a more relaxed pace than mine but I think this is a serious problem with this camera.
This bring me to the button positions and specifically the Iris button (and wheel). Perhaps you both do the bulk of your work on tripods where it would be far less of an issue but as I said most of my work is hand-held and (aside from when the LCD was tilted!!) the positioning of the Iris button and wheel on the 150/170 was perfect. I am still trying to adjust to the Z1 but whatever you do you have to take your hand away from supporting the camera to make adjustments to the iris wheel. On the 150/170 the fingers were adjacent to the focus/iris/wheel all the time without having to move hands around. I have yet to see any other professional camera where the Iris is not in a separate and prominent shape and position – and for good reason.
David/Augusto, I have never owned either a Panasonic or a JVC camera so cannot comment on some of the issues you refer to like build quality etc though David from what I have heard, the Panasonic most certainly doesn’t appear to lend itself to doco shoots (where 50 or 100-1 ratios are now quite common) if it only records HD to a memory card with a very short (is 8 mins correct!!) record time and can only record DV to tape.
Re headphone level I use the headphones mainly to confirm the radio link with the recordist is OK (as well as being able to hear people on radio mics if shooting from some distance away) so don’t wear the type with big enclosed ear-pads and till now have only used the ones I used with my other cameras (last with the 150) so I will look into the impedance issue and see if that was the problem.
At present the camera is with dealer (Macray Specialised Services in Artarmon Sydney-highly recommended) as they have a software upgrade that may I hope solve some of these issue – though I doubt the software update will reposition the Iris button and wheel.
Cheers, I look forward to more comments.
Tony

Tony,

You're right, Macray Specialised Services in Sydney - Highly recommended.

Speak to Paul Duckworth.

Cheers

Tony,
Sure you don't want to flog your less than perfect Z1 before the more perfect JVC and Pana cameras come out, and send the Z1's value through the floor?

I disagree with the handling part of your critique Tony. I find the camera (FX1 in my case) very easy to handle, once you've "programmed" the button positions into your mind, so you wont have to think while shooting.

Nigel, I also used to arch the hand back, but I've found that it is much easier to get a firm grip with the fingers over the zoom button with the smallest finger on the ridge close to the mic inputs. There's no button you can accidently fiddle with, since I suppose you never use lever controlled zooming.

The one thing I would like to change though just to make things perfect, would be to remove the "zoom ring/lever" button that is between the zoom and focus rings. I think that functions you use while recording should have the "best" positions on the camera, and this is certainly not such a function.

It could be replaced with two small buttons. One for the "Focus push auto" that autoadjusts the focus temporarily while shooting manual focus. An easy way of getting focus fast. Already available but at a hard to find position.

And one for the same kind of function but for iris. Temporarily set iris to an auto value and when button is released go back to manual iris. As it is now this can be accomplished by pressing the "man iris" button twice, which I find myself doing pretty often to get a decent iris before I tweak it.

Bjorn,

You want more buttons! Just kidding - good suggestions.

The auto-override of the manual focus setting has always been a fast and reliable way to get focus on the PD150 - I didn't find it as fast as manually focussing the Z1 - and as you observe it's easy to lose track of on the Z1.

I like your idea of a similar button for overriding manual focus (with one touch). In any event those function buttons should be impossible to lose track of while you are shooting

All the best,

Nigel

Nigel,

Actually I have to agree with you on that. On my last shoot with the Z1, I thought something was wrong with my camera and yes, I found the focus override not as responsive as the PD170 which I also own. In some situations it took forever to focus pressing that button and I actually had to focus manually using the focus ring because it was taking forever with the button override. However, I can put up with that since Sony now gave us a much better manual focus ring, with a professional feel. I would accept the trade-off.

The camera has so many advantages, that's why I find it such a great camera. However, if we are going to find some faults, yes, it is not perfect. If we are going to talk about imperfections, one of them is that it is just too heavy to hold compared to the Sony PD150-170. Once you add a camera light, wireless mic or any other accessory/attachment, boy! my arm and shoulder starts aching after shooting for a while with Z1.

We either need a monopod, a tripod or a shoulder mount brace with this heavy camera, otherwise, footage starts showing too much shakiness after being tired of hand holding this camera for a while. And I do not mind heavy cameras as long as I can put them on my shoulder and are well balanced but the Z1 cannot really be mounted on your shoulder without some sort of shoulder brace which I find it is a MUST with this camera.

Bjorn,

You want more buttons! Just kidding - good suggestions.

The auto-override of the manual focus setting has always been a fast and reliable way to get focus on the PD150 - I didn't find it as fast as manually focussing the Z1 - and as you observe it's easy to lose track of on the Z1.

I like your idea of a similar button for overriding manual focus (with one touch). In any event those function buttons should be impossible to lose track of while you are shooting

All the best,

Nigel

Some interesting - although controversial - points here. I just got back from Argentina with my Z-1 and am completely happy. Sure, there are plenty of nitpicks... it ain't perfect. But I've had a VX-2000 for 4 years and a PDX-10 going on 3 years, and the Z-1 has improved on absolutely every aspect of those two cameras. I think Sony learned a lot and listened to users on the Z-1.

Regarding low light, I completely agree about the clean gain boost (the PDX-10 is pretty good at that too). And if you're shooting DVCAM instead of HDV then you can set the shutter at 1/25 (PAL) or 1/30 (NTSC) and gain another stop with no apparent resolution loss because of the oversampled CCD's. I shot a really dark rehearsal last week and people were amazed at how bright and clean the footage looked (much was shot at 1/25 with 15dB gain boost). So if you're comparing low light in DV or DVCAM mode with a PD-150/170 (which is the only fair comparison since that camera can't shoot HDV) then I don't think there is a lot of difference when you consider the clean gain boost and slow shutter speed. But of course it would be foolish to buy a Z-1 if low light 4:3 DV is your priority - the PD-170 would be a better choice for that.

I understand the original point about accidently pushing the iris BUTTON, but the iris WHEEL is phenomenal on the Z-1. I really like the size, shape and location, and you can to totally smooth imperceptable adjustments.

I almost always work on a tripod, so the handheld issues don't really affect me. Aside from any of these nitpicks though, the ability to shoot both PAL and NTSC was why I bought the Z-1. There just isn't any other camera that can do this (AFAIK), and I need to work with both.

I found one minor "gotcha," although I have not really looked into it closely so I might be stating this poorly. It seems that you can set the camera and VCR modes to either DV SP or DVCAM independently. When you set the camera to DVCAM, a blue LED is always on saying "DVCAM." I needed to make DVCAM tapes sending DV over firewire to the camera as a deck. The DVCAM LED was on, so I didn't think twice about it. But it turned out I was making DV SP tapes. You have to set for DVCAM in a different menu when the camera is in VCR mode. This is kind of misleading, although the LCD screen does properly display either DV SP or DVCAM when in VCR mode.

Boyd,

I too own a PDX10 and am looking at purchasing a Z1. I have been reading your posts and was aware that you were in Argentina. I was just wondering whether you had had a chance to intercut footage from these two cameras. If the look is right - then I intend to hang on to my PDX10, as it is a phenomenal camera in a very small footprint, but if there is too great a difference between the two (I will use the PDX10 for run and gun and shoot with the Z1 mostly off a tripod), then I might have to sell the PDX10 and buy another small HDV camera (looks like the HD1 at this stage).

I would appreciate your thoughts.

regards,

Graeme

I basically agree with most of the strenghts and weaknesses detailed by other users, but my biggest problem with the camera is working with sound levels while shooting. I often work as a 'one man crew' and have to alter levels as a shot is happening. I find the buttons way to small and the meter not always easy to read. I am thinking about trying to mount a small mixer on or below the camera to get an easier way to accurately play with levels while shooting.

David:

I know what you mean. On my last shoot I was struggling turning up and down those knobs. I think what it makes it more difficult is that clear plastic cover on those knobs. I know they tried to make it difficult for us to accidentally move the knobs but I was thinking that maybe it would be better to remove the clear plastic cover to operate the volume buttons in an easier way.

I basically agree with most of the strenghts and weaknesses detailed by other users, but my biggest problem with the camera is working with sound levels while shooting. I often work as a 'one man crew' and have to alter levels as a shot is happening. I find the buttons way to small and the meter not always easy to read. I am thinking about trying to mount a small mixer on or below the camera to get an easier way to accurately play with levels while shooting.

But of course it would be foolish to buy a Z-1 if low light 4:3 DV is your priority - the PD-170 would be a better choice for that.


I must disagree with you on this point. I have done enough events to satisfy myself that on a even comparison between the two cameras, there is nothing to choose from a low lighting point of view. In fact, the footage I have when comparing the two cameras in exactly the same lighting conditions - good, low and very low - the FX1 and Z1 comes out tops.

Coupled with the greatly enhanced features and quality of the HDV cameras, this becomes a no brainer to me.

Cheers

Jeremy, this is interesting to know. I haven't A/B'ed my Z-1 and VX-2000 yet, but experience just last week shooting an extremely dark opera impressed me. However I'd still stand by my statement from an economic if not technical point of view. If you want to shoot low light 4:3 DV then why would you spend $4,800 for a Z-1 (or $3,200 for an FX-1) when a $2,900 PD-170 will do the job?...

Graeme: I haven't intercut any PDX-10 and Z-1 footage yet, and don't have any immediate plans to do so. However my impression is that they'd work pretty well together. I think the PDX-10 will not look quite so good as the Z-1, but probably not a huge difference. It would be ideal if you could plug them both into monitors side by side and fiddle with the picture profile on the Z-1 to bring it as close as possible to the PDX-10.

I'm not clear on what you're doing though; what format is the finished piece going to use? If you plan to uprez the PDX-10 to 1080i I suspect you won't be so happy. But if you're working in SD anamorphic 16:9 then I think they are a pretty good pair. But these are just my overall feelings based on looking at lots of PDX-10 footage, and now looking at Z-1 footage on the same screens.

How about matching the PD170 and Z1 in SD mode. Any thoughts on that or have you done any two camera shoot with those two cameras and if they can be matched without much effort in SD???????


Graeme: I haven't intercut any PDX-10 and Z-1 footage yet, and don't have any immediate plans to do so. However my impression is that they'd work pretty well together. I think the PDX-10 will not look quite so good as the Z-1, but probably not a huge difference. It would be ideal if you could plug them both into monitors side by side and fiddle with the picture profile on the Z-1 to bring it as close as possible to the PDX-10.

I'm not clear on what you're doing though; what format is the finished piece going to use? If you plan to uprez the PDX-10 to 1080i I suspect you won't be so happy. But if you're working in SD anamorphic 16:9 then I think they are a pretty good pair. But these are just my overall feelings based on looking at lots of PDX-10 footage, and now looking at Z-1 footage on the same screens.

Jeremy, this is interesting to know. I haven't A/B'ed my Z-1 and VX-2000 yet, but experience just last week shooting an extremely dark opera impressed me. However I'd still stand by my statement from an economic if not technical point of view. If you want to shoot low light 4:3 DV then why would you spend $4,800 for a Z-1 (or $3,200 for an FX-1) when a $2,900 PD-170 will do the job?...

No argument on the ecomical point and it wasn't my intention to dispute that, merely the quality of the footage in direct comparison.

I had a query from someone wanting to purchase a camera and he wanted to know what the footage was like if shot on DV. After a bit of enquiry, he would only be doing DV and nothing else - now thats a no brainer too - then you purchase a PD170!

My post is in reference to someone wanting to buy one the HDV cameras because "its the latest and greatest". Many, and I mean many people are buying these cameras for the wrong reasons!

My viewpoint is to the future and from reliable sources I am told that by the middle of end of the year, Sony will be downscaling its production on DV cameras.

Cheers

Actually we have nothing to argue about :-) I'm only shooting DV at this point, but still felt there were compelling reasons to get the Z-1. The manual controls are better (IMO) and the picture profiles allow more adjustment than custom presets on the SD Sony cameras. But the huge thing which many people seem to dismiss is that the Z-1 covers NTSC and PAL DV, with HDV as a "bonus." That was what tipped the scales for me. Shooting in HDV while downconverting the firewire output to SD gives superior results and also leaves you with a high def tape for future use.

People have been quoting various Sony sources ever since the FX-1 intro about their plans to scale back prosumer DV cameras. I personally believe this is true as well. There's a reasonably credible rumor that production of the VX-2100 has already ended. There are nice rebates on the PD-170. My guess is that the PDX-10 has reached the end of its road with the A-1 taking its place. Looks like we're just beginning a major transition here.

But I'm really happy with my Z-1, and it should give me nicer images than my old Sony's in SD mode, better controls, and HDV when I'm ready for it :-)

I also wonder sometimes when we see these posts that we immediately jump to the defense of our cams :)

I have the pleasure of owning both a Z1 and FX1 and have used the PD170 along with the FX1 before getting my Z1 - hence my defense :)

I still also believe that if it were not for the FX1 and Z1, the PD170 would be my cam of the day for what I do - probably the best cam Sony ever made. But since using the FX1, the PD range became a no brainer for me - just too many advantages with the HDV cameras - I just wish the guys wanting to purchase these cameras do a bit of soul searching and hands-on testing BEFORE they buy the camera.

Yes, its not perfect in every respect but KNOW the limitations and adjust accordingly. These cameras fall within a price bracket and must be judged in accordance.

There are people who are fiercely brand loyal and I fall into this category with reserve. Sony has served me well over the years and until I really hit a bump, I'm staying where I am.

Cheers

I still also believe that if it were not for the FX1 and Z1, the PD170 would be my cam of the day for what I do

The only problem with this for me is that I want to work in 16:9 and the PD-170 is a poor choice for that. That's where the PDX-10 can fill the gap in their SD line. But the Z-1 really covers all the bases.

The only problem with this for me is that I want to work in 16:9 and the PD-170 is a poor choice for that. That's where the PDX-10 can fill the gap in their SD line. But the Z-1 really covers all the bases.

Now your talking :)

Jeremy do you do weddings around Johannesburg?

I live in the states but my wife is from S.A. We are having another wedding in S.A. this December and I have been really trying to find somebody there that can shoot HD. It is even better that you have two HD cameras. I know Cape Town is a long distance from Johannesburg.

Please send me an e-mail so we can talk about it.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !! Boyd !!! Don't let the word spread out too much. I just made close to $5,000 in June shooting PAL in an NTSC world for two foreign customers... it is no secret that the Z1 is two cameras in one but why would you want to emphasize that point and let everyone jump on the bandwagon and share your profits.... mmmm ... The Z1 is the first camera in the world to be able to record two television formats. And that is phenomenal for some of us with international customers.

[QUOTE=Boyd Ostroff]Actually we have nothing to argue about :-) I'm only shooting DV at this point, but still felt there were compelling reasons to get the Z-1. The manual controls are better (IMO) and the picture profiles allow more adjustment than custom presets on the SD Sony cameras. But the huge thing which many people seem to dismiss is that the Z-1 covers NTSC and PAL DV, with HDV as a "bonus."

Haha, very funny :-) But I do agree, having PAL and NTSC in a single package is terrific. From time to time people ask whether they should shoot PAL instead of NTSC because of the frame rate and increased resolution. The current wisdom is always that you'll be making things harder for yourself in the NTSC world if you get a PAL camera. Well, now you don't need to make that choice. Scott Billups says in Digital MoviemakingFor someone who has a good practical understanding of the technologies involved, PAL is a no-brainer; but for someone starting out, the best NTSC system you can get your hands on is probably going to serve you well. The important thing to keep in mind is that with NTSC, you're starting out with a significant handicap

Jeremy do you do weddings around Johannesburg?

I live in the states but my wife is from S.A. We are having another wedding in S.A. this December and I have been really trying to find somebody there that can shoot HD. It is even better that you have two HD cameras. I know Cape Town is a long distance from Johannesburg.

Please send me an e-mail so we can talk about it.

watch for the mail - let me know when you get it

I seem to have stired the pot a bit since my first post of "8 things to consider...." so some responses to other responses! And a 9th reason at the end of this too.

Re low light - again I say whichever way you look at it when you are forced into having to shoot at +18db on the Z1, on the PD170 you would only be shooting at +6 - that is a two stop difference!

Re comparison with other Sony cameras PDX10/PD150/170. Shooting in HDV, downconverting and just using DV will still give far better quality than any of the DV cameras. I just can't see any reason you would buy a straight DV camera anymore, unless of course you do a lot of very low light shoots where the PD170 may be the better choice for you.

Boyd I was curious about your comment re shooting at a lower shutter speed, you said ..."And if you're shooting DVCAM instead of HDV then you can set the shutter at 1/25 (PAL) or 1/30 (NTSC) and gain another stop with no apparent resolution loss because of the oversampled CCD's.only if you were shooting DVCAM". Didn't quite see your reasoning here as you can also still use those lower shutter speeds when shooting HDV too.

David, as Augusto says you can pull the plastic cover down from the audio controls for better access.

Many of you don't seem to have the problem with the positioning of the Iris button that I do (my main 'shooting' gripe with the camera) as it seems most of you seem to shoot mainly on a tripod. Have just been looking at pictures of the new Panasonic HVX200 on their web site and am pleased to see the Iris button in a far more accessable place, and right next to the focus controls too. As far as I know all other cameras have the Iris button in a prominent position and for very good reason - in many shooting situations it's the one control you are almost constantly changing as you move through different lighting conditions.

Can't see the HVX being very useful for doco shoots as the 4G memory card (about $1,800) only holds 8 mins of HD and the camera only records DV to tape. Looks to be excellent in many other respects though.

By the way here's the 9th reason to consider if buying a Z1. It doesn't have Syncro-Scan (!!) which the DVX100 and DVC30 both have, which makes shooting computer monitors a total pain (unless LCDs) and means you usually have to go down to 6fps to get a half reasonable picture. Get with it Sony!

Cheers, Tony W

Boyd I was curious about your comment re shooting at a lower shutter speed
Didn't quite see your reasoning here as you can also still use those lower shutter speeds when shooting HDV too.

When you shoot at less than 1/60 (1/50 PAL)most cameras just use field doubling and write the same data to both the odd and even field. This theoretically cuts vertical resolution in half. You can clearly see this on my PDX-10 and VX-2000 for example (in practice it's really not half resolution, because in normal shooting mode the cameras do some averaging of vertical lines to prevent flicker so you never really attain the full 480 lines).

But on the FX1 and Z1 the native image is something like 960 pixels high, and in DV mode it's processed such that you get the full 480 lines at 1/30 shutter speed. This is something which Adam Wilt also pointed out in his review of the camera.

You don't really have this advantage in HDV mode however. Sure, you can shoot at 1/30 sec exposure but you will be halving your vertical resolution.

I seem to have stired the pot a bit since my first post of "8 things to consider...." so some responses to other responses! And a 9th reason at the end of this too.

By the way here's the 9th reason to consider if buying a Z1. It doesn't have Syncro-Scan (!!) which the DVX100 and DVC30 both have, which makes shooting computer monitors a total pain (unless LCDs) and means you usually have to go down to 6fps to get a half reasonable picture. Get with it Sony!

Cheers, Tony W

Tony, why did you but the camera in the first place!

Its been said before and will probably be said a thousand times more - avail yourself with all the information and make your own informed decision.

There are many of us who have bought these cameras and are getting great results from it - and its paying for the wife's shopping sprees!

Not intended to flame, I just get a bit miffed when someone wants to knock the cameras - there just isn't anything else available in this price range. These are not Cinealtas or Varicams - they are plain ol prosumer and lower end proffesional cams.

The same type of postings were done before they were even released! This won't work... that wouldn't be acceptable... this ring should be there blah blah blah.

Live with the camera - else flog it!

Yes, other maunfacturers have now had the prime opportunity to read all these posts and try and improve on their designs - BUT THE SONY WAS FIRST!

Just my .02 - and don't shoot me for being fiercely loyal when it comes to my bread and butter

Cheers

Why criticize so much camera when is nothing even remotely as good at this price range, and Sony now brought price of this image quality further down with HC1, which sells for 1,800 USD. Guy who started thread and hates the Sony camera he owns, he should sell it, get one he like, maybe JVC HD1, which is true progressive, works great on sunny days at noontime, is brand that he maybe trusts and admires. To each his own. Why whine? Do it! Get the JVC!

Radek

No offense guys, but I am one who loves to read feedback, both good AND bad feedback, after people spend several thousand dollars on a product. I think Tony's point was not just to "whine," but inform us.

It's always good to get feedback from real users to balance out the marketing we hear about "every camera being right for us."

If you don't want to read the negatives, you can always just stop reading this thread.

Kevin

No offense guys, but I am one who loves to read feedback, both good AND bad feedback, after people spend several thousand dollars on a product. I think Tony's point was not just to "whine," but inform us.

It's always good to get feedback from real users to balance out the marketing we hear about "every camera being right for us."

If you don't want to read the negatives, you can always just stop reading this thread.

Kevin

I have no problem with negatives, but its when the negatives like - if you are thinking about getting a new camera - WAIT come along, thats when I jump to the camera's defense.

Should a user wish to air his opinion about the negative of a product, then by all means - just do it in a context which is within the boundaries of keeping it objective and not discouraging the purchase thereof - and no, I don't work for Sony or any of its dealers or affiliates!

I read many, many 100's of posts on the cameras, both positive and negative, BEFORE I went and purchased the camera (FX1). After using it for a while, I most certainly took cognicence of any negative comments and balancing those with my own experience, balanced that against for what my needs were and then went and bought a Z1 as well.

Every single customer of mine, big and small, are amazed as to the quality of the delivered product I have given them (and here I refer to quality of footage). They have no clue as to what the positives and negatives are - all they want is a good end result.

The kind of work that I do (for the corporates) does not allow me the luxury of experimenting - I have to deliver!

Anyhow, I thinks thats the end of my rants.

Cheers

Like Kevin I really welcome a range of comments from experienced users - especially when they use the gear as I intend to. Tony Wilson uses the Z1 as I would, so his comments are very welcome - although I know that certain problems he has with it wont be as big a deal for me.

Like Jeremy, I think the Z1 is an amazing device, and like to read well thought-out and unemotional criticism. It seems to me that one can pretty quickly sense the level of passion or detachment in posts - and the longer the post, the easier it is to work out. You then attribute greater or lesser value to the comments, but it's always better to have more commentators than fewer.

When I walk into a showroom, or hire a device before buying - I want to be aware of every conceivable limitation, especially at a time when Sony, JVC, and Panasonic each have such distinct takes on low-budget HD cameras, each with their very strong and very weak points.

Keep the comments coming!

Nigel

Correct me if I am wrong. But I thought that the advantage of shooting on 1/30 shutter speed and retaining most of the resolution was only -repeat, ONLY- if you shoot on HDV mode and then downconvert to SD mode. That's when you do not lose resolution in SD.

BUT if you were to originate on SD mode with the FX-1 or Z1 shooting on 1/30 shutter speed, the loss in resolution would be the same as if you were to shoot with any other DV camera. I am not quite clear now on this now. Boyd, If you are sure about this, please, clarify. Or anyone who knows about this, it would be important to know for sure.



But on the FX1 and Z1 the native image is something like 960 pixels high, and in DV mode it's processed such that you get the full 480 lines at 1/30 shutter speed. This is something which Adam Wilt also pointed out in his review of the camera.

You don't really have this advantage in HDV mode however. Sure, you can shoot at 1/30 sec exposure but you will be halving your vertical resolution.

When you shoot at less than 1/60 (1/50 PAL)most cameras just use field doubling and write the same data to both the odd and even field. This theoretically cuts vertical resolution in half.

Boyd, I can confirm the opposite from my own FX1E experiments. Please correct me if I'm wrong or misinterpret you.

Looking at frame exports from Premiere for a HD shot of shutter 1/50 and a HD shot of 1/25 I see no loss in vertical resolution at all. In the still parts, the images look exactly the same. In motion parts the full vertical resolution is still there at the 1/25, but due to the longer shutter time there's twice as much motion blur. But as I see it, this doesn't result in less information, just different information.

1/50 at 50i is odd CCD lines capturing the image for 1/50 sec and then even CCD lines for 1/50, and so on. And then transmitted as they were captured. Going to faster shutter speeds only gives a lesser percentage of the available 1/50 sec window for each odd/even frame.

1/25 at 50i is odd and even CCD lines capturing the image at the same time for 1/25 second, and then the fields are transmitted as odd/even interlaced. No loss in vertical resolution, only more motion blur. In reality it is 25p, but split up and transmitted as odd/even fields.

1/12 at 50i is odd and even CCD lines capturing the image at the same time for 1/12 second and then the fields are transmitted as odd/even interlaced, both fields being transmitted twice while the next image is being captured by the CCD. And so on for longer shutter times.

So I wouldn't say that images coming at half the speed but full resolution (1/25 50i) contain more or less informaton than images at the nominal speed and half resolution (1/50 50i). The only difference is amount of motion blur. It all changes at 1/12 and lower because the full images are transmitted several times, so the transmitted information is less and less.

Whew!

Jeremy, as one of the first to start using and promoting MiniDV cameras in the professional area since 1996 with the VX1000 and having shot hundreds of hours for many broadcast television documentaries with both the VX100 and PD150, plus run courses at the Australian Film Television and Radio School on how to use these cameras, I think reasonably qualifies me to make a comment or nine about the Z1.

You seem to forget I have consistently said how great the pictures were from the camera and have also noted other good features. My point in placing this post is simply to make folk aware of some of it's limitations before jumping in.

To try and appease you Jeremy, here is a list of some of the finer points of the camera (in no particular order) -

1.Great pictures, even when just shooting straight DV/DVCAM
2.Ability to output HDV to DV
3.Ability to output Stretched/Letterbox/4x3 (handy if shooting HDV but only have a standard monitor on set).
4.True 16x9
5.Huge range of picture control
6.Assignable buttons and ease of set-up (for bars/markers etc)
7.Wide-angle lens (wider than a 170 with a wide-angle lens screwed on)
8.Readout of distance and zoom length display.
9.More 'steps' in Iris so less 'clunks' when changing iris manually.
10.Shot transition feature (in an era of no assisitants, a fantastic tool)
11.Component output to view HD on HD monitor/TV
12.Ability to record to DV tapes and get 60+ mins v. DVCAMs 44 mins
13.Extended focus
14.Skip scan (if that was also on the PD150/170 I never realised it!
15.LCD/Viewfinder marker guides (would have liked to have the 150 guide too)
16.Ability to remove all info and just see picture on LCD?viewfinder
17.Great pics when using all gain settings
18.Pal/NTSC
19.Battery display feature.

There, happy now!

PS I have a few more negatives too so don't push me.

Cheers, T

Forgot to say - Boyd I saw your explanation re shutter speed and lines etc (bit technical for me!) but looking back at tests I did (1/25 PAL) on an HD monitor I saw no difference in picture quality except for normal shutter blur and would have no issue shooting HDV at 1/30. With ballet it might be a problem but in opera they don't move so quickly do they!!! By the way in a theatre I wouldn't have thought the light would have got that low (perhaps you were shooting rehearsals). On stage do you always use the Indoor factory setting? T

This thread is beginning to head in the direction of antagonistic posting; let's try to keep it to the tools of the camera and leave the pointed and personal comments out of it, please?

Tony: actually opera can be very dimly lit. There can also be a lot of movement (believe it or not!). Sometimes it's so dark that the ambient light spilling from the orchestra pit overpowers the stage lights. We were doing Wagner's "Die Walküre" and this sort of heavy dramatic piece can get really dark. Added to this, the theatre in Argentina is modeled after European houses and they use "bridge spots" which are followspots mounted on light bridges above the stage. They tend to point straight down most of the time, and even worse, with modern staging the singers come all the way to the edge of the stage which puts the follow spots behind them. The result is almost no light on their faces.

Even so, the Z-1 produced some nice images at 1/25 50i wide open with 12 dB gain boost.

Point taken Mr Eagle. Apologies.

I know what you mean Boyd. About 15 years ago I paid what seemed like a small fortune to see something at La Scala and I honestly thought the lighting people were on strike. There was just a main light either side of stage and if anyone came further forward or back from the light pattern you hardly saw them. Nothing from front of house at all.

You seem to forget I have consistently said how great the pictures were from the camera and have also noted other good features. My point in placing this post is simply to make folk aware of some of it's limitations before jumping in.

Tony, I have no problem at all with your critique, since I feel you are sincere and honest about it. In my impression you are not here to rant. People may disagree with your opinions, but then we also have a fruitful discussion. I value your (and other) opinions.

Just praising our Sonys wont make us learn anything. We all know that the Z1/FX1 kicks ass, so why do some feel the need to get in a defensive mode? The cams dont need any defence, they can stand up for themselves.

All right gents.

Maybe I should set the record straight.

Tony, please don't feel that I am attacking you personally. I have no doubt as to your expertise, professionalism and as to the quality of work you deliver and my postings were never directed in a personal way. Yes, I am miffed at the comment but this in no way means that you now move to the bottom of my food chain!

If anyone has taken a personal offence to my comments, my apologies.

Maybe I just had a bad day yesterday because I got chucked out of one of SA's very large department stores - yes, chucked out! Why you ask. I was trying to be an informed consumer.

I had walked in to view their 42" plasma monitor they had - yummmmm. Very nice one since it supported HDTV for DVI as well as Component and I thought - finally!!!! Anyhow, I queried the obviously ill-informed and untrained floor salesman as to the specifications of the unit and after much searching a manual for the unit was found.

After paging and seeing the resolution specifications, I queried the salesman as to whether I would be allowed to plug my camera into the unit and do some live testing via component - after all, when one spends that kind of money on a unit, you want to be sure the thing works to your satisfaction. "No problem" came from the salesmen so yours truly promptly returns home, grabs the Z1 and a tape and races back to the store. After stopping outside and grabbing some footage before going into the store, I walk in.

As a point of background to the story, you folks must understand that this particular department store group (hell I'd love to mention their name - grrrrr) had just a few days before suffered a rather unsavioury strike action by their unhappy staff because of managements policy not to include staff in the selection of staff process - yeah! Customers had been locked in the store - some for up to two hours!!!

As a further point of background info, from the store I had called a friend on his cell phone to tell him of the monitor since we both are looking for suitable monitors and have been searching and testing units for the last few months to find the right solution.

After reaching security at the entrance to the store, I point out to the resident and nonchalant security person that the camera as well as the cables sticking out of my back pocket belonged to me and off I went to the appropiate department. Said ill-informed staff member promptly helps me to plug in my component cables and I switch on and start reviewing my footage just shot outside - wow, finally, a monitor which shows me great viewing of footage at the right resolution and its simply plug n play - wow - yum - drool.

I also at this point need to point out that I had now asked ill-informed salesperson to check on stock levels and he promptly returns and gleefully informs me that they have two in stock - and at this point I pat my backside pocket to make sure my wallet is there - yum.

Now folks, its at this point when the excitement and anticipation comes to a mind shattering and soul numbing halt!!

The next minute, a burly and obviously gleefull security chap appears at my side and promptly queries as to whether I have permission to bring the camera into the store. You all know what the answer to that is so I politely point out our ill-informed salesperson and turn back to my cam and do some zooms and pans to see how this monitor performs.

Poof - next to me appears the "I am the acting store manager and why do you have a camera in the store?". Now normally I am a mild-mannered individual and not normally prone to losing my rag easily - well, not relatively easily :)

I promptly point our resident ill-informed salesperson and pass the buck to him to which our "acting store manager" replies, "You don't have MY permission". Now thats when this mild-mannered and normally calm individual just simply becomes a fully deflated individual and the neck hairs start taking on a form of their own. No amount of explanation or protest from my side would persuade this now VERY IMPORTANT "I am the acting store manager". He continues with much pomp and ceremony as to the fact that HIS permission was not obtained and blah blah blah.

By this time, I have become so dejected and deflated that the obviously alluring and so beautifull monitor becomes a blur. He also raises the point that "I want the tape in the camera". I know some choice words were uttered amongst others - "over my dead body". Our "I am the acting store manager" methinks realises that the only way he will get the tape will probably be over my dead body and chooses in the face of defeat to promptly ORDER his security staff, which by now had swelled in numbers to about 8, to "escort this man out of the store"!

Yours truly is promptly 'escorted' out of the store by two security staff members and to add insult to injury am stopped AGAIN at the exit by two MORE security staff members and they wanted to know where I purchased the camera! Now the phrase - "I just lost it" comes to mind and proceeded with telling the "i am an important security person" that "over HIS dead body" comes to mind and to step aside or be stepped upon.

Anyhow, that was my Saturday morningand top crown it all, I find myself reading Tony's post a few hours later.

Tony, as I said before, please don't take offense and I will try and adjust my comments so that at least you don't feel "over my dead body" - lol.

Enjoy YOUR day folks!

Cheers

Now sadly for the "I am the acting store manager", I had chosen to keep the camera on record so all his rants and raves ARE ON TAPE. I will be visiting the store's group head office on Monday.

Yours truly is promptly 'escorted' out of the store by two security staff members and to add insult to injury am stopped AGAIN at the exit by two MORE security staff members and they wanted to know where I purchased the camera! Now the phrase - "I just lost it" comes to mind and proceeded with telling the "i am an important security person" that "over HIS dead body" comes to mind and to step aside or be stepped upon.

My god, Jeremy! I've encountered some rude people in stores but never to this degree! I've not even been thrown out of a bar.

I'm sure you will get generously compensated come monday at the head office. Could be handy to have an ace up your sleeve, that some potential buyers are watching this case on an Internet forum.

Dunno about South Africa, but generally I find salespeople in the US are bit more polite than in here in Sweden.

My god, Jeremy! I've encountered some rude people in stores but never to this degree! I've not even been thrown out of a bar.


Now a bar hmmm... - that I'll live with :)

Cheers