I have set myself a little conundrum.


The Fremantle Symphony has generously given me two nights of their time and effort to shop, rehearse and record some sample concept underscore varations on Fra Diavolo for an expanded trailer of "I Belong To The Shadows" plus "The Overture From Fra Diavolo".

Very, very generous I think.

I don't have the ready cash for any sound studio let alone big enough for a 90 piece symphony orchestra or any sort of mix desk, so it will have to be their practice studio which is a repurposed community hall/gym and my limited audio resources.

The walls are very live, painted brick and one side is all windows and timber frames. One compensation is that the floor is timber over joists, not concrete.

The workspace mitigates against traditional mike placements if I had enough of them in the first place. I did a few tests tonight with C74 directionals right up close to the glass windows and brickwork as PZMs and get an acceptable sound. The instruments which dominate don't come over the strings too much if I put them distant.

However the sound I get by the "PZM" method is fairly dry, - the Sony directional mikes which were never intended for this sort of abuse.

My kit is nearly all Sony directionals, two C74s, two C76s, two ECM-674s. I may be able to get hold of a studio dynamic mike.

I have an old Fostex DMT8 mixer HDD recorder modded for 42 minutes per track pair but it is 44.1 Khz. and phono inputs, not XLR, which the mikes are.

Recorder-wise, I have a Sony TCD10 Pro2 DAT and Zoom H4n.

Any suggestions on how best to use this kit to record a 90-piece symphony would be appreciated.

Can you beg, borrow, or hire a couple of small diaphram cardioid mics such as the Audio Technica AT3031? A coincident X/Y pair on a stand 8 feet or so above the floor and 6 feet or so behind the conductor's podium might be a place to start experimenting. Your various shotgun's directivity are working against you here as they're just too narrow for one to effectively and smoothly cover even half of a 90 member orchestra.

Or even further along Steve's line of thinking to beg, borrow, rent a pair of very-small-diaphragm mics like the Earthworks SR-71. The AT-3031 will have lower self-noise and be more commonly found, but the Earthworks can give good results in very lively, problematic venues. If you can't find the Earthworks, then the AT-3031 or AT-4021 or Shure SM-81 would also work. Some Rode mics like the NT4, NT5, NT55, and NT6 would also work. Maybe a local Rode dealer has some demo models.
You're going to need a reasonably good stereo preamp or mixer that provides full phantom power (unless you use the NT4).
I don't think your DAT has phantom, I believe it's the same model I used to have. Your H4n has phantom but generally I prefer to use an external preamp. With the volume of an orchestra though you might be able to get away with it unless this piece has many quiet passages.
I assume you did your testing using batteries in your Sony shotguns or did you use the H4n?
You could try to use some real boundary-layer mics if again you can beg, borrow or rent them.
I've also used regular mics in the pseudo-PZM placement and that can work surprisingly well, but I've never tried it with shotguns. I think you will need to find something less directional to get really good results unless you just have no other available option.
Let us know what other mics you might be able to search out.

Steve and Jay are giving you the equipment starting points.

Without getting too personal, what are you thinking!?! 90 musicians donating their time, and you have a "what equipment can I repurpose" approach? To me this seems very disrespectful of the substantial contribution others are making.

Find the gear. Spend some money. Do it right or defer to a time that you can do it right!

I could go on... but won't. Again, nothing personal, but do think about this!

********************************
Your mics might be useful as spot/soloist mics.

A cardoid pair for some stereo technique does seem like the minimum starting point.

You most definitly want to be recording in 48KHz. Any device that only has phono inputs should be out.

I'd want to add some sort of multitrack and 6 channels of preamps.

Then, you need good monitoring & evaluation to help you with the mic placements.

All this needn't cost too much to hire. One more consideration - local churches frequently have the best acoustics around, and may not cost much either.

Seth.


Thank you for your response. I hear you entirely and wholeheartedly agree as a muso myself. This has moved on a bit faster than I anticipated from what was an initial ambit enquiry. I explained from the outset this was for an underfunded pre-prod trailer and they have still embraced it.


Steve and Jay. Thank you for for your responses.


Anything that stops me from going down a dead-end is much appreciated.

Okay gentlemen.


I can get my greasy hands on the following hardware :-


Mikes.

Between 8 and 12 Sennheiser ME35 on goosenecks.

8 AKG CK31 on goosnecks if all are operational.


Mixer.

2 Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro mixers.


I may be able to get a man with a computer running up to 24 individual tracks.


As for the hostile recording environment, it is one where the least inconvenience is incurred, parking being the biggest one for the orchestra anywhere else.

There is not a lot I can do about the reverb except put some furniture blankets up.

It did not sound all that bad in my PZM tests.


Any furthur advice is much appreciated.

For a large orchestra, often micing the whole ensemble with a single stereo pair or Decca Tree will give better results than trying to close-mic individual sections or performers. One of the most stunning recordings I ever heard was the New York Philharmonic and Metropolitan Opera chorus mic'ed with a single Blumlein array stereo pair.

For a large orchestra, often micing the whole ensemble with a single stereo pair or Decca Tree will give better results than trying to close-mic individual sections or performers. One of the most stunning recordings I ever heard was the New York Philharmonic and Metropolitan Opera chorus mic'ed with a single Blumlein array stereo pair.

Agree with Steve on this one. Best approach here is to keep it simple. You do NOT need to multimic this when a simple Blumlein crossed-pair (or slightly spaced apart for a little more out-of-phase component - more stereo effect - but watch out for slightly poorer mono compatibility) in the right location will do the job.

The key to this is going to be the location for such a large size orchestra. Simple micing techniques work great in the right location utilising good (natural sounding) acoustics. A poor location using multimics will often (in my experience) produce poor results.

My mic choice and starting point for this would be Schoeps slung about 10-20 feet above the orchestra about 30-50 feet back from the conductor.

In a previous post: The mention of Mackie and Pro in the same sentence... Aaagh!

:)

I'd find a church with good acoustics, keep it simple and get a good sound guy who really knows their stuff.

Claire.


Mackie and Pro?? Sounds like like you have very exacting standards or had a bad experience. I could have asked for a Gentner but they are software driven things and my life is hard enough already with the limited time I now have for this gig.

You will probably cringe at me saying this, but except for poor reproduction from older 78 records, I find the "reality" otherwise of big bands and orchestras surprisingly good in some instances, the verification of simpler is best philosophy.

If you have to use the list of mics you've provided - the the AKG CK31 is the most suitable one you have available - the co-incident pair (x/y) will probably do the best job in a room that sounds good - does it?

You've got some recording kit that with the mixer getting the levels up to line, will work. You need a VERY good set of headphones so during rehearsal you can experiment with the mic position - or a room where you can set up the kit and use real monitors - which would by far be the best bet.

Another vote for a simple stere pair in a good spot - although I usually set the mics pretty much above the director's head when possible since directors usually contrive to get things to sound in best balance where they're standing. All depends on the venue - I've had very good luck back about 20 - 30 feet in the audience in a nice hall where it wasn't practical to get anything above the orchestra.

I think the only need to use spot mics would be so you could add a slight bit of boost to a section when camera zooming in on them. I sometimes use a PZM mic on the underside of the lid of a grand piano and add a very small amount into the mix when zooming in on the pianist, for example. I think it complements the visual feeling quite nicely, but if I'm just doing a CD I would not want to boost it.

I don't think of myself as the audio equivalent of a plastic surgeon - balance, proportion, and beauty is up to the orchestra, my job is to do as good a job as I can of being faithful to what they've done. I really don't think a lot of multi-track manipulation is appropriate for classical music.

Having said that, though, I have to admit that I'm being pressured by the pianist to do post magic to fix a "mis-touch" in a Beethoven violin sonata, and since she's my wife I may have no choice but to have a shot at it!!!

Bob, I agree with Jim, a co-incident stereo pair, no multi tracking especially if the recording is to be made in the Leckie Hall .. 3 pix.

Photo gallery Fremantle Symphony Orchestra (http://fremantlesymphonyorchestra.wordpress.com/photos/)

Looks like there's been some attempt to damp the hall, but it's a small venue for a classical orch sound and I'd spend much time positioning the mics. Monitoring to balance the sections by moving the mics will be tough, long balanced mic cables out into another room with a small speaker set up might be the go.

But then again this may not be the venue :)

Cheers.

Claire.


Mackie and Pro?? Sounds like like you have very exacting standards or had a bad experience. I could have asked for a Gentner but they are software driven things and my life is hard enough already with the limited time I now have for this gig.

You will probably cringe at me saying this, but except for poor reproduction from older 78 records, I find the "reality" otherwise of big bands and orchestras surprisingly good in some instances, the verification of simpler is best philosophy.

Sorry about that Bob, just my knee-jerk. I withdraw that statement... But yes, exacting is probably right!

Having said previous, MTV's Remote Audio 8, Nashville has/had a small Mackie (think it was an 8 or 16) for ancilliary stuff on piggy-back to a Lawo MC66.

Good luck with your project - sounds awesome.

:)

Thank you all for your continuing advice.


Allan.

Yes it is the Leckie Hall and thanks indeed for publishing the website and the image. The conductor's podium is uncomfortably close to the glass doors and confines the workspace.

My resources don't amount to a large studio. I did enquire to see if Studio 620 was still extant and that I might be able to borrow that but it is no longer an option. It has apparently been heritage listed though.

I had heard it had been torn down but since told it is still there. Whether it will ever again be a working sound studio is another matter.

ABC's new East Perth studio is booked during the window of opportunity but also would not be affordable for me right now. Parking for 90 pieces down that end of town or bussing them from a carpark would be an unaffordable nightmare.


My initial faux PZM best test results happened to left and rear of David's podium for best "apparent" balance of the strings and the stronger portions of the orchestra. As soon as I turned my test mike around, the strings became very strident. Using the floor for PZM effect at the same position was almost as good but bumps. shuffles and clicks seemed to come through a lot more. With all the feet and instruments in the way I would have thought there would be less incidental noise.

When strong music is being played, the acoustics are not so cruel. Quiet phrases with flutes
are very echoey. We will work out on Monday just what parts will be played so after then, can make my decisions for any closer mikes for the quiet instruments.

My test rig was Sony C74 directional mike > Sound Devices MixPre > Zoom H4n recorder at 96K stereo.

My deal for the Mackie and AKG mikes fell through. It was apparently misunderstood that I was to use them for an in-house project.

The little canteen down the far end of Leckie Hall might be an option for a monitoring booth with the hatch door down.


I just learned today that there is also a Western Australian Philharmonic Orchestra now. I have not kept myself up-to-date on these things.


Thanks again all.

Do come back and tell us how you get on Bob.

Would love to hear...

:)

Claire


Thanks for your assistance and encouragement. Either celebrating how I fared or crying in my cups in public if I did not, I will surely let everyone know.


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A risk of getting into a politically incorrect debate I am hesitatingly inserting this lower footer which seems to be a practice these days.

________________________________________________________________

QUOTE: "- - - - hits lower, 'ceptin' when she hawlin' off an' swingin' that castiron skillet, then bruvver, you don't be hangin' 'round, standin ye ground. That's a fool's game. You better be runnin' already.

________________________________________________________________
and one of my own.

A person can be a great Jack of all trades, except that life is too short.

SI2K. EX1. NAGRA 4L and a few other bits and pieces.

Have built the "Decca Tree", - adjustable from about 600mm to 1000mm on each arm.

Gave it a quick test tonight with the short directional Sony mike in centre and one each C74 on the arms, oriented to use the rear lobe of the pattern as I understand the recommended arrangement. Seems to work well on the stereo. Gaining up or dropping down the centre mike pretty much does as the literature suggests.

How well remains to be seen. That revelation will happen this coming Wednesday. Hopefully I will have a warmer and non-directional mike on the centre arm by Wednesday.

Thanks everyone for your assistance in this cliff-face learning curve so far.

Here is a link to a copy of first rehearsal and recording test.

YouTube - FRA DIAVOLO EXTRACTS WEB EXPORT.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPsmk_ijz2k)

It is not really valid as an example because I levelled the channels with normalisation to 95% and put some compression on in Cool Edit, otherwise the quiet stuff was buried really low.

Left channel was a bit strong. Right channel was kept down as the horns had me bluffed. I will try riding it next week on some of the takes as the other channels don't seem to pump with it being moved.

Left channel on the first piece is a bit brushy. All channels were down on the first piece. I brought them up and gained the recorder down for the next piece and that seems a bit cleaner but still has that noise.

Bob, that does indeed look a very difficult place to record an ensemble of that size. You seem to have done pretty well considering, but it would be great to hear even a very short extract of the original full quality file so that we can discount any unwanted compression effects from posting on Youtube.

One problem with home made Decca trees is the health and safety aspect - is yours actually suspended above the conductor (and what's actually holding it up)?

This is the daft kind of gig that I get roped in for. I did a youth orchestra open rehearsal recording in a huge games hall (with similar acoustic to a swimming pool) using a pair of Rode NT1As in an ORTF setup about 10ft off the floor on heavy duty stands. It sounded better than I have expected but obviously not studio quality.

Interestingly enough the you tube page had a link to a performance by Tito Gobbi - ancient recording, noisy, terrible from a modern day recording perspective - but the interpretation was brilliant!

Fast forward to now - I'm still thinking that a good stereo pair might be a better choice. Certainly simpler to set up and lighter overhead! I'm thinking that for this one, the challenge is more to get good sound than optimal stereo image.

I'm worrying that at close range the orchestra is quite spread out side to side and I'm afraid a shotgun will wind up rejecting a lot of the instruments at the extreme ends of the orchestra (Violins for example)

There seems to be a bit of noise coming from somewhere - not sure if it would be mic or somewhere else in the recording chain - maybe H4 isn't quite up to the challenge??? Not sure at all. Also You Tube didn't do anything to improve things I'm sure.

Keep at it - best of luck.

Colin.


The Decca tree as such is free standing on a light stand and sandbagged. It is also out of "arms reach" of falling on the conductor which might also mitigate against recording quality.


Jim.


Simpler may be better but of best mikes, I have but one of them. The Tito Gotti clip has turned up since last I ventured to youtube. There is also a lot of drift through that recording relative to the orchestral backing which makes me wonder if his vocal went down to playback of a pre-recorded backing.

Recordings onto optical film might not have been so easy to line up, especially if the playback was not easily audible to the singer once he lit up and added his own expression to the pacing of the piece.

Yes, I understand - we always run into the reality of not having exactly the right kit for whatever comes along, otherwise I think we'd need a 5 ton truck full of gear. I always have the same problem myself - don't quite have exactly what fits the situation but have to make do while fighting miserable room acoustics all the while.

Oh well, that's where creativity enters the picture I guess.

The Gobbi recording was utterly deficient from a recording perspective, but it was fun to listen to nevertheless. Something like the media NOT being the message, rather the message transcending the media.

Wish we were closer - I'd be happy to loan you my kit and borrow yours when the need arose if we were't on opposite sides of the earth! I'm pretty well set up for classical stuff, but sadly lacking when it comes to dialogue/ jazz, etc.

Here is a link to a copy of first rehearsal and recording test.

YouTube - FRA DIAVOLO EXTRACTS WEB EXPORT.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPsmk_ijz2k)

It is not really valid as an example because I levelled the channels with normalisation to 95% and put some compression on in Cool Edit, otherwise the quiet stuff was buried really low.

Left channel was a bit strong. Right channel was kept down as the horns had me bluffed. I will try riding it next week on some of the takes as the other channels don't seem to pump with it being moved.

Left channel on the first piece is a bit brushy. All channels were down on the first piece. I brought them up and gained the recorder down for the next piece and that seems a bit cleaner but still has that noise.

I'm confused about what you meant when you said you have the C74's oriented to use the back lobe. Does that mean you're aiming the usual front of the mic AWAY from the orchestra? Also, what do you mean by the above "pump when being moved?" Did you take the mics directly to the recorder or did you go through a mixer? If it was direct to recorder CAN you go through a proper mixing desk next time? Your issues with gain settings would be much more controllable if you could.

Decca trees are traditionally done with omnidirectional mics or occasionally cardioids, not extremely directional mics such as your Sonys. Isn't there anything you can do to get proper mics? I'm with Jim that a pair of small-diaphram cradioids in an X/Y coincident or an ORTF semi-concident arrangement will probably give you the best results. Wouldn't even consider it with shotguns.

The performance went off tonight as planned. David Pye, the conductor or the Fremantle Symphony Orchestra and arranger of the pieces, reset the orchestra slightly differently and modulated their individual performances to fit according to the rehearsal recordings from last week.

One of the C74 mikes has a very slight buzz on some peaks, to be expected I guess after some 30 years. It had to be replaced so I went into the debt and bought in two Rode Nt2a mikes.

There were three NT2a mikes on the Decca tree. The centre mike was switched to omni-directional, the wing mikes were switched to bipolar ?? ( figure 8 ) and arranged as per recommendations.

Best of all, Il Direttore Steve Rice was able to get a smart young fellow who knows his sound stuff to come along.

He observed the setup with the Yamaha mixer and suggested that as I was only using three channels and I had picked up some line noise last week, that I should use his Sound Devices three channel mixer along with his headset and H4n, which he had brought along "just in case".

What a relief it is to have someone along who knows what he is doing and can make it happen. Even more, an affirmation that all is most definitely not lost with the young generation.

The session went down in three takes for the first piece and two for the second and is a delight to listen to.


So. Thank you all for your helpful contributions to the project in the way of advice and also giving me the necessary poke in the arse to better respect the orchestra's endeavours with a better effort on the sound recording side.


I will post an extract in the next few days once I have copied and tidied up the edges.


My reference to "pumping" is not correct soundie's terminology. I refer to an unpleasant thing which happens if you drop level on one channel a bit too much and then try to relevel in post and the rest of the recording comes up un-naturally as well.

Bravo!

I look forward to hearing some samples! Kudos for emerging on the other side of a challenging project in good condition, with recordings you can live with.

Hi Bob

Congratulations! Sounds (pun intended) like you got it!

Seriously, I've been really happy with my NT2-A. I'm thinking of getting another one shortly. I've heard a chorus recording using two of them in an ORTF configuration and they sounded really good. Give it a try sometime.

With three of them you could do surround sound (two in cardioid mode facing front and back and one in figure 8 mode covering right and left.)

Or two in figure 8 mode crossed at 90 degrees in a Blumlein configuration. Lots of combinations possible.

Hi Bob, yes kudos for hanging in there and also to the band for the same.

You West Aussies certainly have a reputation for that .. just have to taste your Margaret River wines :)

Cheers.

Well, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, here is the final outcome, each channel normalised to 95% in Cool Edit Pro at 96Khz but otherwise unaltered except for what recoding to YouTube imposes.

YouTube - FRA DIAVOLO ARRANGEMENTS FOR IBTTS.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWpBhIyuq8k)

There is an artifact evident once or twice in the first piece. My jury is out on whether it is a disharmonic beat between two strong sounds like you get when two girls scream at the top of their lungs nearby or something caused by the room acoustics or my pole picking something up and resonating to it.

Any hints at minimising it would be appreciated also any of your personal preferences as to how I should massage the recordings.

The pole had foam padding at the arm junctions and at the mikes. I made suspensions but got it wrong and had no time left to remake. We put some furniture blankets up on the walls and opened what windows we could.


Thanks again everyone. Regards from Western Australia.

I'm curious why you're normalizing. Varying dynamics are such an important part of the emotional expression in classical music and normalizing reduces the dynamic contrasts of the recording. If some of the music is loud and other parts soft, that's the way the composer and the conductor intended it to sound so don't try to smooth it out.

Steve.


Normalising in Cool Edit Pro as I interpret it, seems to bring the whole recording up to in my case, 95% of saturation at peaks without altering the relativity of the softer areas of the recording.

I have applied no compression which I understand pulls the highlights down closer to the general level of the recording.

The clip posted is an early version for the orchestra members and others in the "I Belong To The Shadows" crew to promptly hear back their work.

My job is now pretty much done. Better hands and ears than mine ( about 15db low on the right side @ 4000Hz ) can take it to the next post-production level.

Hi Bob.

Thanks for the link to YouTube.

I think (as was discussed earlier) this project would have benefitted from spacious acoustics, although I must say you have done a great job given the circumstances.

Personally, I did feel that some members of the orchestra didn't quite come up to spec. There are some passages that could have been performed better. And here's where larger acoustics can come to the rescue.

Love Perth. I have been on a number of occasions visiting your TV stations. Enjoyed the Margaret Valley wines especially.

:)

Claire.


Thanks for your observations. There's better things I could have done with the recording but this was a baby on a budget.

Margaret River. Yes. it is one of our jewels these days, a far cry from when our wine and our vinegar were far less separated as to taste and quality.

The Fremantle Symphony members are not paid or salaried performers and comprise, students, retired people and people with other dayjobs.

To hear something come together from concept to performance in the space of two weeks was still a thrill. The folk there are genuine lovers of music.

just to follow up with what steve mentioned, you might want to give the mastering eng the raw stems from the recording as well as your normalized mix because the "finalizing" outboard gear is going to do a better job than running a simple mathematical algorithm (normalizing) in your software editor. That way, he/she has more options in post, that's all.

But good job with working in such a difficult environment.

Aaron.


The original recordings will be archived. Their purposes were to demonstrate and prove a concept and they have done so admirably.

It is now up to the production entities to do with them what they will.


Thanks again to everyone who gave their helpful advice and information. My sense is that it would have been a frustrating mess if I had gone it entirely alone.

And of course, thanks to Chris and the other wranglers and sponsors who initiated and support this site. There is lots of good stuff that would not have happened if dvinfo was not here.

That is in no small way attributable to the affirmative oversight with which dvinfo is maintained and people are re-directed to task when propagating unproductive forment and contention becomes their objective.