I rented in the 7D over the weekend to shoot along side my Canon XHA1 at a wedding. Here is the results from my low light tests at the reception. In all cases color/noise and brightness looked better on the 7D. My conclusion is that the 7D is definitely a good low light camera for wedding receptions.

No color grading or editing was done to the images.

But the 7D is also showing a good deal higher contrast level. It is blowing our the whites in the video to expose for the faces. The A1 is showing more much more range to work with.

The difference in the flowers between the 2 is staggering. And your not in a high contrast lighting scenario at all.

I shoot with the XL H1S and the 7D together, and I limit the 7D shots to closeup shots.

Michael I agree with you, however this was my first shoot with the 7D. I've noticed it's very hard to judge exposure and easy to over expose shots without Zebra Stripes to help.

I agree with that. But the thing here is your exposure for their faces is within range of where it should be. And the flowers, the guys white shirt, etc. are all blowing out tremendously in a low contrast lighting situation. It shows the limited range the SLR has in relation to the A1.

You should try shooting with the Marvel cine setting that you can download from his site. It lowers the contrast a lot in the 7D. Still not at the level you can get out of the XH/XL but it helps.

2 part question here....

A) Could any overblown whites be brought down in post?? Or are the pixels lost?

and

B) Could a 35mm adapter address the same light issues that the 7D doesn't have? I realize you can't manipulate the ISO setting in the XH A1, but it would be nice to know if an adapter could allow for more light..
The only reason i ask of option B, is because i'm considering buying an adapter..Especially if everybody's starting to get rid of them due to the 5D and 7D's DOF and ease of use...

Thanx..

2 part question here....

A) Could any overblown whites be brought down in post?? Or are the pixels lost?

and

B) Could a 35mm adapter address the same light issues that the 7D doesn't have? I realize you can't manipulate the ISO setting in the XH A1, but it would be nice to know if an adapter could allow for more light..
The only reason i ask of option B, is because i'm considering buying an adapter..Especially if everybody's starting to get rid of them due to the 5D and 7D's DOF and ease of use...

Thanx..

A) If it's overblown, there's not much you can do to bring back details
B) You will actually lose a few stops by using a 35mm adapter.

Try dialing down the contrast and sharpness on your 7D and practice shooting+editing with the footage. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it soon enough :) As you probably noticed, the LCD is more of a guide rather than a true representation when it comes to properly exposing your scene.

Thank you Nicholas, for sharing this interesting test.
I've tried the 7D video mode at dawn but I've found that above 1250ISO it becomes too much noisy in mid tone and dark areas, don't you think so?

Yes Ronan, this is my experience too.

That's what perplexes me about these SLRs at the moment. One thing they are praised for is their lowlight capabilities, yet I find that anything exceeding ISO1250 has a lot of noise, particularly chroma noise.

Ronan, it's definitely noisy at ISO 1600 but it does look better than the noise I get at 12dB. As a guide I try to never shoot above 6dB. These days I try to light the area properly instead of shooting in the dark. This was the first time I handled the 7D so I'm sure much can still be learned. I would like to test it against the EX1 some time. I used one 800W tungsten light about 12 meters away to provide light for reception. It was also very hard for me to get critical focus using the LCD.

I also tried the 7D with a 50mm f1.4 lens @ 1000 ISO, 1/50, and the result are interesting : I had average on the screen the same level of light as it was on the stage.
Unfortunatly there is no zoom opening at f1.4!

The EX1 is much more sensitive than the XHA1 I think.

For the consumer market, Sony will release soon a camedorder which is suppose to be very sensitive… but not professionnal (so not good for wedding!):
HDR-CX550V | 64GB HD Handycam® Camcorder | Sony | Sony Style USA (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921666073231)

I though that Dslrs in general should have a wider dynamic range....not less. I am seeing similar issues with my 7d in situations where the lighting "is" low contrast to start with. And I have already set my contrast as low as it will go. Have to admit it does pull a great image out of not so well lit situations but often times it appears that it has a built in S curve that blows out the whites and crushes the blacks all too easily if you are not careful.

Where can I find that super low contrast preset?

The lowest I know of is to choose "Faithful" and then reduce contrast to the minimum. I prefer "Natural" with contrast reduced. If you start with "Standard", the contrast will be fairly high.

Ok. So maybe I just had a realization....maybe I didn't. Each of the "presets" such as faithful", "natural" are unique in reference to the slider adjustments? What I mean is if I pick a preset, look at the settings it will all be "zeroed" out and any changes plus/minus will adjust from there? So the scale of adjustments are shifted according to the preset?

I am asking because I just always thought that the presets were just pre-configured versions of the sliders. I'll have to look into this as it may answer why I can't seem to lower the contrast enough.

Thanks.

ehh.. ok.. i'd like to know this too!

I also agree that the 7D is blowing out detail in the whites.

At least the XH-A1 camcorder is maintaining a lot more detail in the flowers, shirts and face cheeks etc.

The 7D files may look more punchy and vibrant strait from the camera, but the 'duller' XH-A1 files hold far more details and could be worked easier in post to replicate the 7D files...but not the other way round.

The XH-A1 could also be adjusted in presets to deliver more punchy high contrast shots straight from the cam if that is what is required.

The 7D should be more than capable of getting as good a dynamic range as the XH-A1. I wouldn't recommend any special "superflat" styles, however, as they tend to ruin skin tones. Just use neutral with contrast all the way down, sharpening all the way down, and saturation maybe one up (yes, the profile you start from does make a difference). The standard profile on the 7D is absolutely terrible. It's a shock that anyone at Canon approved it. As an aside, I think your problem in these particular shots is dramatically accentuated since the 7D is slightly over exposed and the A1 is slightly underexposed.

Tony definitely, I usually try to shoot as flat as possible on the XHA1 in order to color in post. I would never use the XHA1 footage without grading it. Jesse the XHA1 is under exposed however is wasn't possible to get anymore light as I was already at 1/25 shutter, Iris wide open, I do feel 12dB is unacceptable.

Here is another comparison. This one I graded with Magic Bullet.

I know the conversation is about the tonal range but what strikes me is the color. Is the wall green or brown? I expect it is brown.

As others have said, the blown whites are an exposure problem. Yet, your Magic bullet examples look pretty good to me. In fact, I have noticed the tendancy of the 7D to appear to over expose whites (auto Photo mode). Then, just do minor contrast and tonal range adjustments and get an amazing print.

Judging from the color in the above images, I would pick up the 7D over the other camera for picture quality. Note that I am not a pro video guy. It would be great for those of you with good understanding of these topics to make a few points about the color differences and the issues in dealing with them.

Learning a lot here!

Thanks.

Tony definitely, I usually try to shoot as flat as possible on the XHA1 in order to color in post. I would never use the XHA1 footage without grading it.

How did you shoot the 7D footage? Did you turn down the contrast and saturation? I feel like you could have shot a stop lower and brought it up in post but get less noise.

Ethan it wasnt a very scientific test, I just happened to have the 7D for the day, which was the first time I handled the camera. The 7D wasn't even my primary camera I simply took a few shots to compare in post and help me decide if the 7D is a useful camera for weddings.

Ethan it wasnt a very scientific test, I just happened to have the 7D for the day, which was the first time I handled the camera. The 7D wasn't even my primary camera I simply took a few shots to compare in post and help me decide if the 7D is a useful camera for weddings.

I was just asking to get an idea of how it was shot. For the first time using it I'd say you did well

simply stopping down with the 7d a bit would have looked better in the original example, not sure using an overexposed image as an example is fair in this comparison.

Each of the "presets" such as faithful", "natural" are unique in reference to the slider adjustments? What I mean is if I pick a preset, look at the settings it will all be "zeroed" out and any changes plus/minus will adjust from there? So the scale of adjustments are shifted according to the preset?
Yes.

I am asking because I just always thought that the presets were just pre-configured versions of the sliders.
No.

A picture preset is actually a configuration whose parameters cannot be modified in the camera, except with small adjustments via the sliders. You can create your own picture preset with the software the comes with the camera.

A) Could any overblown whites be brought down in post?? Or are the pixels lost?
If it's blown-out, then it's lost. The camera does better with underexposure.

Could a 35mm adapter address the same light issues that the 7D doesn't have? I realize you can't manipulate the ISO setting in the XH A1, but it would be nice to know if an adapter could allow for more light..
Unfortunately, this idea is upside-down. All 35mm adapters eat light. You lose light through the adapter itself, and you lose more light with whatever lens you attach onto the adapter. Just think about it. Anything that you attach in front of the camcorder's built-in lens can only decrease the amount of light that gets passed to the sensor, not increase it. That's one of the main reasons why people are ditching adapters. It's not just the added bulk and operating inconvenience.

The 7D files may look more punchy and vibrant strait from the camera, but the 'duller' XH-A1 files hold far more details and could be worked easier in post to replicate the 7D files...but not the other way round.

I don't get it. Why would you want to make the images dull?

Mikko, dull images allow for better grading options in post. Images when filmed is naturally dull, the camera then enhances the image so that it looks better, the camera is doing most of the grading for you already however should you decide to change the look of the image later it's harder to achieve the look you want because you are applying a grade over a grade and thus losing quality. It's for this reason that shooting RAW is so popular.

I find that using the Neutral custom setting on the 7D with saturation turned down and always biasing slightly to underexposure helps out. Even when using a monitor it's difficult to keep exposure correct. In situations where there aren't second chances and the situation is dynamic, consider using Manual shutter and aperture settings in the best lit scenes with ISO 160 and then put ISO into Auto. I think you will find fewer "blowouts" this way and the camera smooths out the exposure better than you can with the discrete aperture stops on a DSLR. You can always press exposure lock to override a pan where I don't want the exposure to adjust.

Give it a try around the house and see if it doesn't perform better than you when jumping between a variety of lighting situations

Tend to agree Roger. Good tip about exposure lock too.
I'd prefer to let the cam do it since I cant trust what Im seeing myself.
Need Zebras.

Mikko, dull images allow for better grading options in post. Images when filmed is naturally dull, the camera then enhances the image so that it looks better, the camera is doing most of the grading for you already however should you decide to change the look of the image later it's harder to achieve the look you want because you are applying a grade over a grade and thus losing quality. It's for this reason that shooting RAW is so popular.
There are those who believe that the codec isn't strong enough to allow for a lot of grading before noticeable artifacts appear, so in their opinion, trying to get to the final "look" as closely as possible in-camera is a wiser option.

Another option is to enable Highlight Tone Priority. I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned it here already. However, HTP has been shown to slightly increase image noise.