I met today with the president of a chain of restaurants here in Quebec, Canada, who wants a 30-second commercial spot for television. He has a very clear idea what he wants and he obviously knows a little bit about this, as he proposed up front removing the front glass panels on his refrigerated counters to avoid reflections. He wants a straightforward presentation of the food, no scripted scenes, with a female voice-over. We should be in and out in less than 4 hours if everything goes smoothly.

He called me because he said a local broadcaster charges "too much" for the production aspect and is looking for a cheaper (albeit not cheap) alternative. I've done corporate but no thirty-second spots before and I don't want to charge more than is customary (or so low that he won't take me seriously).

What is an approximate rate for a thirty-second commercial spot produced with a three-man crew? I'll add separately the cost of the voice-over actress, equipment rental (if any) and transfer costs, depending on what the broadcaster wants.

Thanks.

A few ramblings thrown together in no particular order.

I would allow for a couple of days shooting, if your renting in gear you may need an extra day to get used to the gear, you might also have to go back for pickups.

All depends on the budget, not always easy to get but handy if you can. If this is going to be a good piece for your portfolio and a stepping stone for potential clients then you can afford to do this on a small budget.

It's the thought process and the hours and hours of research we spend before we even pickup the camera thats hard to cost, I always call that bit 'cake'. Do a rough costing and add cake for all the creative background stuff.

Goto the location and takes lots of still from every angle, not the suns direction and available light, as this will effect your budget if you are hiring lamps.

Crew, if it's just runners then allow £180 - £380 depending on days & preproduction meetings.

Motion graphics, logos supplied in vector format or will you have to redraw, screen graphics, titles this could eat up a morning or a day.

If there's no talent involved apart from the VO then this will save a lot of time on the Pre-production screen sessions and alike. When you do get the VO back you will probably need to recut to fit your 'new cut'. Are you writing the script for the VO?

If you are only recording incidental sound on the shoot this will save on having a sound guy or extra pressure on you. What about the background music costs. Cheap these days but still should allow a couple of hundred.

Will you be suppling a story board / shooting plan prior to shooting? You could just use stills and copy for this. I know you he didn't want a script but you need some sort of plan.

When look at the voice, you may have to include studio costs for them to lay down their tack, although a lot of artists will have their own setups and email you the VO. You would need to supply them an online, web viewable cut of the TVC with a burnt in timecode for reference.
They charge by the word so get a draft script for them to cost. Allow around £300.

I would allow for 2/3 days postproduction, although there might be many client amends so pencil in another day for this. It will take half a day to output the file to broadcast specs in a format of their choice. If they need this in SD then they might go with an IMX codec. £1,500

If he will use this on Viral advertising then you need to allow for costs for file conversion. Even if its just going on YouTube if will need maintaining.

You will need the broadcast specs from the station, they will supply a pdf or direct you to a online page with details.
These will have to be followed, things like safe colours / audio levels / freeze frames / clocks should all be covered.
The station will get you to liaise with their technical department if you have any problems. They will reject the TVC if you do not follow their specification. They may allow you to upload via FTP, this would be handy for you.

You can download a simple free clock online from http://idustrialrevolution.com.


Add about a third onto what you were thinking, if you can.

On this one if its a first or you need it then I would charge around £2,500-£3,000 (Sterling). If he argues this he may give away his budget and its up to you how much you want the job. Don't go under the budget go over.

Good Luck.

James

Thanks James.

The four-hour shoot is non-negotiable, he wants to do it in the morning before opening while he has all the refrigerated and hot counters filled with food. It's a make-it or break-it condition, so I'm planning everything within that framework. 3-4 lights (its inside a mall, no daylight), no tracks for the dolly, every shot planned beforehand, no sound (foley or sound banks in post). If anything goes wrong, I'll save the next day for pick-ups.

I will figure in all the itemized costs for rentals, actors, etc. I just wanted a global figure that people charge for a three-man, four-hour shoot and adjust accordingly. This is a very well-known chain of fast-food restaurants, so I am definitely ready to do it at cost for the exposure (although I'm not telling him that). I just don't want to bid too low.

I have done many restaurant commercials. One thing I always tell clients is " if you can't afford to shoot food right, don't do it!"

I always spend at least a day on table top photography for food clients.

You can see the results at my website.

Lizardlandvideo.com
Phoenix video production

One thing I always tell clients is " if you can't afford to shoot food right, don't do it!"

He won't. That was made clear. The conditions I presented are non-negotiable. Yes, I know it usually takes at least a day.

EDIT: I will propose, however, doing two 4-hour shoots on separate days. Great if we get everything we need the first day, but at least we won't have the clock breathing down our necks.

I would like advice on pricing, however. Thanks.

J.

It might be only for 4 hrs but *15 years experience! (*or what ever).
Ok 'just' the shooting for 3 man, say 1 camera, 2 runners/grip for 4 hrs £580 (sterling). 2 Camera £800.

It might be only for 4 hrs but *15 years experience! (*or what ever).
Ok 'just' the shooting for 3 man, say 1 camera, 2 runners/grip for 4 hrs £580 (sterling). 2 Camera £800.

Thanks James. We all know the story about Picasso's napkin. :-)

I'll add the associated costs to this and bid accordingly. If his budget is too low, or I feel that I can't do it in the conditions/time allotted, I'll just pass.

J.

On a quick side note. I once missed a placement of a blonde lamp that was too near a massive shop type window (coffee shop, french door style, double glazed). I only noticed because the glass had warped and distorted the view.

I made an excuse, had a quick chat with the director and called a wrap for the day, I quickly moved the light and made no reference to the distorted panel. When I arrive back early the next morning the glass was perfect and flat, much to our relief. The client was unaware.
That won't happen again.

Thanks James. We all know the story about Picasso's napkin. :-)

J.

Yeah I know, but some clients always forget!

Good luck on the bid.

I have done many restaurant commercials.

Paul, I posted in the "Taking care of business" forum about rights for commercials. Do you renounce all rights when you cash the cheque, or do you negotiate extra fees for additional territories or the client modifying the ad after you've completed the project (such as a different voice-over language)? Does the client own the ad completely?


J.

Yeah I know, but some clients always forget!

Good luck on the bid.

Thanks. the goal is to get enough exposure in commercial (as opposed to event or corporate) productions not to deal with nickle-and-dime stuff like this anymore and bank on my reputation to dictate the parameters for shooting, instead of having the client do it.

In this case, having the name of this restaurant in my portfolio is going to rank me right up there with the majors, which is why I'm so accomodating.

J.

If getting the job means that much, I'd factor the costs of paying your help, paying any expenses (rental, travel, whatever), and then throw in enough to cover your personal time, and call that a quote!

If getting the job means that much, I'd factor the costs of paying your help, paying any expenses (rental, travel, whatever), and then throw in enough to cover your personal time, and call that a quote!

I guess that's what it boils down to.

I have other considerations, also. Because this is a commercial production (as opposed to a low-budget short film), I don't get to claim "independent production" status with all the breaks that entails. If I go union, I have to go all the way. I would hate not to, if only for the voice actress who would forfeit royalties. I'll have to do two budgets and compare.

Do people with experience producing commercials here usually go union or not?

J.

Making food look delicious and appetizing on screen is notoriously difficult. A specialized "food artist" is usually on set to prep and dress the food items. For example, if you shoot a nice juicy steak, it usually photographs too dark, and looks either too greasy or too dry. Green salads look dead and wilted on screen even if they're fresh. In many cases, the food isn't real. Ice cream melts way too fast to photograph, so they usually use frozen mashed potatoes instead. Do you know what kind of food you're shooting, and does it require a professional food prep artist to make it look delicious?

Making food look delicious and appetizing on screen is notoriously difficult. A specialized "food artist" is usually on set to prep and dress the food items. For example, if you shoot a nice juicy steak, it usually photographs too dark, and looks either too greasy or too dry. Green salads look dead and wilted on screen even if they're fresh. In many cases, the food isn't real. Ice cream melts way too fast to photograph, so they usually use frozen mashed potatoes instead. Do you know what kind of food you're shooting, and does it require a professional food prep artist to make it look delicious?

Here's a quick photo from a Hellman's Mayonnaise advert, the burger is about 15years old. Doesn't look to bad.

Making food look delicious and appetizing on screen is notoriously difficult. A specialized "food artist" is usually on set to prep and dress the food items. For example, if you shoot a nice juicy steak, it usually photographs too dark, and looks either too greasy or too dry. Green salads look dead and wilted on screen even if they're fresh. In many cases, the food isn't real. Ice cream melts way too fast to photograph, so they usually use frozen mashed potatoes instead. Do you know what kind of food you're shooting, and does it require a professional food prep artist to make it look delicious?

Yes, we've got that covered. It'll all be prepped ahead of time, and not necessarily edible in real life.

In this case, having the name of this restaurant in my portfolio is going to rank me right up there with the majors, which is why I'm so accomodating.
J.

Which is the reason he's coming to you, because the majors would tell him to take a hike with his non negotiable unrealistic requests. If you want to be ranked right up with the majors, know your cost of business and charge accordingly. Four hours to shoot??? Have fun!! Believe me when I tell you this is NOT how the majors got to where they are. It will only serve to piss them off and give you a reputation as a lowballer. The owner of this chain knows exactly what he is doing and is more than likely well aware that you will be doing this at cost or lower. You will be setting a precedent that will be very hard to move up from.

But to answer your question. I just did a 3 man 5 hour shoot which involved full light setup, boom audio, and a on location set design that needed to be ready for talent in 2 hours. I charged $1500 US. It was a non profit so my price was a bit lower than what a commercial or corporate client would have payed because I like working with non profits.

Jacques,

I know this is sort of piling on, but this seems like a potential setup for disaster.

If the client is so restrictive going in, one would think that it might be tough to please them on the back end as well.

Shooting food in a fridge case is going to pose some lighting challenges to get it looking like the food often seen on broadcast T.V. Shadows and nice soft directional light are going to be difficult.

What camera(s) are you going to use?

This is sad to see as people just seem to want the world but in 1/4 of the time and effort needed.

Butting a shoot up against a restaurant opening for business is quite scary as well. I know time is limited for this industry but four hours and people are coming through the door means sacrifices. Which often leads to unhappy clients.

This all boils down to expectations. If they are realistic, then you will be o.k. If the client wants the moon, you have a negative for your resume.

But to answer your question.

Thanks...

I just did a 3 man 5 hour shoot which involved full light setup, boom audio, and a on location set design that needed to be ready for talent in 2 hours. I charged $1500 US. It was a non profit so my price was a bit lower than what a commercial or corporate client would have payed because I like working with non profits.

I give back to the community by occasionally doing production work for charitable organizations - i.e. I only charge them for supplies and assorted fees (unions if any, permits, etc.). Some of them have little enough money to support their charitable work as it is, I don't feel right charging them for my time. I invoice them the full amount and they give me a receipt in exchange (minus costs detailed above), which I then deduct as a donation.


J.

Follow-up: I'm tendering my offer to the client next week.

I appreciate the intentions displayed here, really I do, but I'm afraid that some people wasted a lot of time presuming that I'm just a kid with a camcorder wondering which end to point. I can assure everyone that, having done corporate work for several years now, I am well aware of the restrictions and the stakes. For instance, I planned a second 4-hour day for additional shooting. I did not mention this because it's not germane to my original question, and I didn't feel that I needed to justify myself. I was trying to keep it fairly simple by asking only about the financial aspect - not the technical - to avoid muddling the issue, as is happening now.

How - or even if - I planned to do this depended solely on my having a better idea of what the industry usually charges for a 30-sec commercial spot. A few of you have been very helpful in quoting ballpark figures, and again I thank you.

Ironically, I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the legal aspects yet. If anyone has done professional work for TV broadcast, they'll know that camera work and lighting are the least of their worries. There are permits to be had, insurance to be purchased, clearances to be obtained (the restaurant is inside a convention centre), and I'm not even going to address the legal quagmire of dealing with actors' and technicians' unions and the restrictions on using a non-member (just showing a restaurant employee expertly preparing the food requires all sorts of special permissions and extra fees from the local guild). And what about territories, broadcast schedules, S&P (some broadcasters require a certification, which is free but has to be filed properly)? That's the responsibility of the producer, not the client, because I'll be the one getting the nasty registered letter from the unions if the client decides to play the commercial for an extra week, or outside the agreed-upon territory.

Compared to this, coordinating the actual shoot is child's play. But I wouldn't go so far as presuming that none of you didn't already know this. ;-)

Thanks again. I'll let you know if the client accepts the offer.

J.

Jacques, I am sorry if my post caused offense, but to be fair, your original post painted the image of somebody who was accepting a job that they have never done before and looking for an amount to charge for it.

How can one put a rate on a broadcast commercial? This type of question is asking the impossible.

If you want to include the term "broadcast", you are going to get replies based on the top end of the video world. And as most know, this means in the millions. The question and answer can be very broad.

Nobody has said you do not have the skills to do the job, but the fact that you are trying to make the job work speaks enough.

I was actually trying to make the point that you are selling yourself short and putting your reputation in jeopardy by agreeing to a 'get something for nothing' type of situation.

I wish you luck and hope everything works out well with the shoot.

Thanks Tim, but your post didn't offend me. I didn't want to go into the specifics about the nature to the job to avoid well-intentioned but misguided advice about the technical aspect, but I was interested in knowing what the range of prices people charged for a 30-second spot.

I can say now that, if I go full-union, there's no way I can pull this off for less than $10,000 (not including the broadcasting). The actor's union is brutal, to the point of dictating how many people I must hire (whether I need them or not). I would have liked to know how many people go non-union, while still paying fair wages, just to avoid dealing with all the red tape.


J.

That's the rub about asking for pricing, the technical aspects are at the heart of determining how to quote any job.

Good to see your are protecting yourself with the pricing. If it is too high for the client then you have made a good decision.

Ditto on the apologies Jacques, offending you was never my intention. Good luck with the project.

Really, Mick, I wasn't offended. I would have liked a wider sample pool, of fees, however. From the figures that I've seen, I don't know how people do it. Maybe they don't bother with unions or insurance?


J.

Thanks...
I give back to the community by occasionally doing production work for charitable organizations - i.e. I only charge them for supplies and assorted fees (unions if any, permits, etc.). Some of them have little enough money to support their charitable work as it is, I don't feel right charging them for my time. I invoice them the full amount and they give me a receipt in exchange (minus costs detailed above), which I then deduct as a donation.
J.

While you're efforts here are admirable, in the U.S. this is against the law if you're not claiming the FULL amount of the invoice as income BEFORE you take the charitable giving deduction. Which kind of makes it a moot point. The reason for this is you could invoice them for some ludicrous amount, say $50,000 for a $5,000 :30 PSA, claim that as a charitable donation and not have to pay any taxes on it. If your business only made $50,000 that year, you wouldn't owe any income tax at all. If I'm pointing out something you already know, please disregard.

While you're efforts here are admirable, in the U.S. this is against the law if you're not claiming the FULL amount of the invoice as income BEFORE you take the charitable giving deduction.

Well obviously, I can't deduct donating money that doesn't t exist on paper...

While you're efforts here are admirable, in the U.S. this is against the law if you're not claiming the FULL amount of the invoice as income BEFORE you take the charitable giving deduction.

Well obviously, I can't deduct donating money that doesn't t exist on paper...

EDIT: how the heck do you delete a duplicate post?

No, you can't deduct it at all, here in the States. What Mick is saying is that it's irrelevant whether it exists on paper; if you don't actually receive income, you can't deduct against it as a charitable donation. So if you bill and receive 100K for the year -- that's your real gross -- and you also donate a job worth 20K, you'd have to declare 120K to then deduct the 20K donated effort, which is the same as neither billing for it nor deducting it. You can't deduct the 20K against the 100K of real income no matter what you do, no matter how much paper there is.

If the tax laws differ in Canada, you're lucky.

And you can't deduct a duplicate post either. Notify the mods by using the "report post" button and they'll do it for you.

So if you bill and receive 100K for the year -- that's your real gross -- and you also donate a job worth 20K, you'd have to declare 120K to then deduct the 20K donated effort, which is the same as neither billing for it nor deducting it.

That's precisely what I was saying.

I bill the client for the job. The client hands me a tax receipt for a donation. I declare the amount, then submit the deduction.

J.

Just curious, to what end? Seems there is no benefit to doing this. You wouldn't save on taxes doing this as it's the same as not doing it at all. Or am I missing something?

(Sorry to drag this thread further OT, but this is intriguing...)

Adam: just so my records coincide with the organization's records, in case of an audit. They need to put the value of my work in their books, and I still need them to reimburse costs for supplies.

Got it, thanks.

Producer, director, writer, cameraman, DOP, lighting technician, sound technician, grip, set decorator, craft, editor, distributor, accountant... How do we do it?

More importantly, when you're used to doing everything well, how do you learn to delegate? I lie awake at night... :-)


J.