I am wondering if it is possible to produce software tutorials with the nanoFlash. Specifically, the computer has a DVI video output. So, would using a DVI to HDMI adapter and setting the screen refresh rate to 24 Hz (or 30 Hz) and its resolution to 1920x1080 make it possible to record the video output with a nanoFlash?

I know there are other ways of grabbing screen output directly on the computer, but I would like to know if this would work. And if so, has anyone done it?

Dear Adam,

Yes, this may work, but it is not guaranteed.

One needs to feed the nanoFlash a clean HDMI signal, with one of the standard frame rates and one of the standard resolutions, 1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720.

We know that the Nvidia Quadro FX 4600 can not be used with the nanoFlash. The frame rate/frequency of the output is not within spec.

We know that other graphics cards do work.
(But, I do not have a list of what works and does not work).

Thanks, Dan. How about GeForce 6200 TurboCache? Would that one work?

Dear Adam,

We have not tested that graphics card with the nanoFlash.

One of the problems is that there are hundreds, if not thousands of graphics cards.

Also, we can not tell by reading the spec's.

In certain cases, we can tell if a card will not work by reading the spec's, but it has to be tested to determine if it actually works or not.

Also, generally the spec's do not include the information we need to determine if the card will work or not.

So, to be as helpful as possible:

We need to be able to record in standard video formats, in standard video frame rates.

In other words, it has to look like video for us to record it. For example, a resolution of 1600 x 1200 is not acceptable.

I have read the spec's on this card. If you can select 1920 x 1080 at 23.976, 23.98, 24, 29.97, or 30 frames a second, then we may be able to record from your card.

The video card needs to detect a monitor; then will output according with that.
You can pass the signal through an HD TV and record with the NANO the HDMI OUT of the TV.
That one should be standard.
May work.
Rafael

Thanks, both of you. I am hoping the card will detect the nanoFlash and assume it is a monitor. Though I could always pass the signal from the nF to my smallHD monitor, which can accept HDMI signal. Indeed, I would have to, otherwise I would not see what I was doing.

I also have a Sony Vaio laptop which has an HDMI port and I have successfully connected the smallHD to it. But I would rather use my desktop. Nevertheless, if I have to, I can use the laptop.

Thanks again,
Adam

PS, I just checked. The card does support 1920x1080 but the lowest refresh rate it goes to is 60 Hz, which I assume is comparable to 60 frames per second, not 30 frames per second.

I will have to see if there is some kind of DVI to HDMI converter that can turn it to 30 fps.

I've done extensive testing of capturing computer output. This is something that is highly dependent on the video card. Also, be aware that many video cards will be limited to the refresh rate (frame rate).

I'll say it does work pretty well from what I've tried but I'm mostly using a laptop with an analog video output, converting that to a digital signal that can be recorded by the XDR.

I know there is one guy on the forums here, who captures XBOX 360 output via HDMI. I'm sure he's went through a lot of the same trial and error discovery that I have.

It's working pretty well for me though, my biggest issue is that the XDR/nano can't record true 60i in Quicktime format. This however, is addressed in the next version of the firmware update. Can't wait to try it out.

Dear Rafael,

In order for the nanoFlash to work, we have to negotiate with the sending device, via the HDMI link.

We do this.

There is no necessity to have a monitor in between us and the sending device.


XBOX 360 can not normally be recorded via the nanoFlash, as the "Broadcast Flag" is set, indicating that the signal is copy protected, thus the nanoFlash can not record it.

The company that is recording the XBOX 360 is a game developer. As such, they have a special developmental system, where the "Broadcast Flag" is not set.

Does this negotiation work when your computer has a DVI output and you put a $10 DVI->HDMI adapter in-between?

Dear Adam,

Yes, it should.

This is if your DVI graphic card supports HDCP.

Adam, I have done recordings with DVI->HDMI cable. Also, the DVI->HDMI cable is a simple wiring adapter, not a converter since the signaling is the same.

Again, though, your video card needs to put out a signal on the DVI port that the nano will be able to sync to.

Since PowerDVD refuses to play Blu-ray on that computer, I do not think my card supports HDCP, but compared to the cost of the nF, a new card would be peanuts. So, I have just called B&H and ordered the nF. I will have to call them back tomorrow to arrange for the payments, but it is a done deal now.

They do not have it in stock but say they will have it within a week or two.

Of course, my main use will be with my Sony EX-3 anyway, but I am glad to see it can also be used to record the output of the video of the computer.

Dear Adam,

Welcome Aboard!

Please feel free to contact me at anytime for support or assistance.

The point to force the DVI to output an standard signal, and any certified video card should do it when detecting an HD, PAL or NTSC monitor.
Then the NANO should be able to record that signal.
Rafael

Thanks, Dan. I'm sure I'll have more questions once I have received it.

I have just received an email from B&H that my nF has shipped and should arrive on Friday. I will then test if my video card works with it and in the likely case it does not, will ask you for a suggestion on which card to get to replace it with.

Well, for some reason I cannot plug the HDMI cable into my nanoFlash. I tried two different HDMI cables. It appears nF's HDMI is not same as a computer HDMI. Any advice here?

Dear Adam,

Are you using a Type C HDMI cable connector for the nanoFlash end?

The original HDMI connector was a Type A (large size).

The smaller, mini size, connector is a Type C.

There are Type A to Type C cable available. One source is nanoFlash.net (http://www.nanoFlash.net), one of our premiere dealers.

Some cameras use the Type C HDMI connectors also, thus one would need a Type C to Type C cable. These are harder to find. There are Type A to Type C adapters available.

If your cable already has a Type C (mini) connector on the nanoFlash end, then the size should match our nanoFlash connector and it should just work.

Does the cable end appear to be the correct size?

I have two cables. One came with my smallHD monitor, the other is a DVI to HDMI adapter cable. Both have standard HDMI connectors (male). I did not know there were different types of HDMI. Oh, well, I'll need to get more cables.

Now, as to the original question of this thread, I am looking into a new video card. Can you tell me if this GeForce 9800 GT (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130440) would work for my needs (i.e., to connect my nF to it and save the computer output to video)? Or can you suggest the right card?

Dear Adam,

We have not tested the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9800 GT.

We do know that the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9600 GT does not work with the nanoFlash.

If you do get the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9800 GT I would make certain that you can return it, without a large financial loss, if it does not work.

Dear Dan,

Is it safe assuming that if a graphics driver software (like the Catalyst with my ATI card) can configure the HDMI output as 1920x1080 @25Hz (it's also possible to set to 50 or 100 Hz), there is a chance the nanoFlash will be recognized?

Of course, for NTSC area this would be 30, 60 or 120 Hz.

Dear Piotr,

We do not do a lot of testing with graphics cards.

I recommend that you just perform a test, if you have the cards.

I would make certain that you can return it, without a large financial loss, if it does not work.

No, they only offer returns for replacement if the card is non-functional. I wish you had a list of cards you have tested.

Anyway, if the 9600 GT does not work with the nF, chances are the 9800 GT does not either. Do you know of any GeForce that does work? Especially in the 9xxx series?

OK, how about this SAPPHIRE 100253HDMI Radeon HD 4650 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102829) card? It has an HDMI connector on the card and several reviewers have said they use it to play videos on their TV. Several also mentioned it plays Blu-ray. Would that be an indication it would work with the nF? I don't mean to record Blu-ray, which obviously is not possible, but if it plays Blu-rays, it seems reasonable it should support the proper frames per second.

It is not terribly expensive either.

Adam,

I understand Dan is in no potion to know about each graphics card model; when I find some time I'll test it for you on my ATI 3870 card (all ATIs should work the same as the Catalyst software that is used to configure output parameters is the same for all current models).

Dear Adam,

As always, we would like to help you as much as humanly possible.

But, the only reason we know that the GeForce 9600 card did not work is that a customer reported it, then we helped him troubleshoot it.

This community of friends is in much better position to help.

If anyone has an HDMI equipped Graphics card, and a nanoFlash, then they can run a test, if they so desire.

We hope you obtain some results and advice from the members of this forum.

when I find some time I'll test it for you on my ATI 3870 card

Dziękuję, Piotr, and thank you, Dan.

Dziękuję, Piotr, and thank you, Dan.

Cala przyjemnosc po mojej stronie, Adam :)

PS. I wonder how our fiends with no CE code page on their computer like all those Polish characters...

I would hope that all the recent versions of Windows have the CE fonts readily available. Otherwise they will just see a a little square in their place. Though under Unix lynx just substitutes an e for the ę.

I just realized that my laptop has an ATI card. I will go ahead and order an HDMI to mini HDMI adapter, and when it comes, I should be able to test it myself.

Also, all NVIDIA cards use the same driver software, so chances are if the ones Dan mentioned do not work, none does.

If enough people post their test results, I would be more than happy to produce a web page on Pantarheon (http://www.pantarheon.org) which will show all the test results.

Dear Adam,

Here are some technical details.

When most cameras output a video signal, the signal is typically very accurate in frequency. Typcially, it is within 5 parts per million or 5ppm.

We lock on to this signal.

While the signal is typically within 5ppm, we search for the signal within 100ppm.

With the NVidia GeForce 9600 card, we found the output to be way off; it was not within 100 ppm. This is either a hardware or firmware problem, on their side, as we see it.

So, our first experience with the 9600 card was such that it did not work. Recently another customer was using the same type of card, and it did not work either. They tried another computer, with a different graphics card, and it immediately worked.

We await your results using the ATI card.

We await your results using the ATI card.

I ordered the HDMI - mini HDMI cable from B&H this morning. It is expected to arrive on Friday. Assuming it does, I will be testing it either on Friday or Saturday. And I will post my results as soon as I finish.

Hi all,

Just to mention that another approach to this issue is to buy the Blackmagic Design DVI extender unit, which acts as a monitor and requests the correct resolution from the graphics card. It then outputs HDSDI which can be recorded by the nF.

Blackmagic Design: DVI Extender (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/dviextender/)

OK, it's another $395, but it may let you use the nF with a wider range of graphics cards.

Dave

Wy bother to try to connect the nanoFlash to your computer? There are a lot of free 'screenrecorders' available (softwaretool) that does a great job in capturing what's going on on your screen (p.e. camstudio).

Dear Dave,

Did this work for you?

If so, what graphics card were you using?

It would also be nice to know the resolution and frame rate settings.

Just to mention that another approach to this issue is to buy the Blackmagic Design DVI extender unit, which acts as a monitor and requests the correct resolution from the graphics card. It then outputs HDSDI which can be recorded by the nF.

Hi, Dave,

Very interesting. I have almost ordered it but then I noticed it uses 3GB/s SDI. I do not believe that the nF could work with that. If it could, this would be the perfect answer to my needs.

Maybe Dan can confirm (or deny) it would work.

Wy bother to try to connect the nanoFlash to your computer?

Because the software tools you are mentioning (and which I mentioned in the original post of this thread) are not as great as you may think.

Take a look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYFLJpze5Co). In it, I was playing a midi composition of mine. The computer was displaying each note as it was playing it. I was capturing it with that software. Now, at the beginning of the capture the video and the sound are perfectly synchronized, but toward the end the video is lagging behind the sound.

Of course, on my computer the video and the audio were in perfect sync from start to finish. But in the capture they were not. And in some other compositions I have done the synchronization was even worse.

Now, that may be fine for a YouTube video (though it bothers me), but it is unacceptable for professional work.

And that is just one of the reasons.

Dear Adam,

3G HD-SDI devices almost always work with the much more common 1.485 Gigabit per second flavor of HD-SDI.

I have not tested the device, so I do not know if it will work or not.

Also, the nanoFlash was special circuitry to handshake with the device sending the HDMI signal.

If this has been tested and actually solves the problem, then great. I do not see why it would be necessary.

However, it could be that the Blackmagic unit is more tolerant of an out-of-spec signal from your computer.

Thanks, Dan.

Then it should work. According to their documentation, the DVI Extender should work with nVidia cards. Note that they work with DVI, not HDMI.

Also, I have updated the driver for my GeForce 6200 TurboCache. It now lists 1080p and 1080i, both 60 Hz as possible modes. I will wait till my mini HDMI adapters arrive to test both my desktop and laptop via HDMI.

Nevertheless, the DVI Extender seems like a very useful device to have even if it turns out I can use my nF directly with my computer.

I see the same company also offers an HDMI to SDI "mini" converter (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/620830-REG/Blackmagic_Design_CONVMBHS_Mini_Converter_HDMI_to.html). I wonder which would be more more useful in the long run, the DVI Extender or the HDMI converter.

We await your results using the ATI card.

I have tested it and am uploading the results to YouTube. Alas, I seem to have a very slow connection, as it is saying it will be uploaded in three and a half hours. And since it is midnight, I am just going to leave my laptop on and am going to bed.

But, presumably, the test results should be available within a few hours of this post on my YouTube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/RustyTube). The name of the video is nanoFlash Test 1.

Here are the results of the nanoFlash with ATI test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KvoV6fjFd8). Best viewed at 720p HD and in full screen.

And here is my nVidia test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFZ8w8YBv_Y).

Hmmm... No reaction to my tests from Dan???

Dear Adam,

I am sorry it took me so long to respond.

I was swamped working on a special project yesterday.

I watched both videos. I was very pleased that you found a Graphics card that worked with the nanoFlash.

On the second video, there was an audio problem, I heard the audio multiple times.

I did not comment since I thought you would detect the problem then repost the clip.

Are you going out via HDMI or DVI. If you are using DVI, then there is no audio, and you have to get audio in via the analog audio inputs. Even so, the audio appeared to me to be a computer setup issue, not something that the nanoFlash would normally cause.

(But, this is too early to tell the cause of the audio problem.)

Did you hear an audio problem was it just me?

An audio problem? I will have to re-listen to it, but I added the audio in Vegas. The nanoFlash did not pick any audio in either test. It seems my laptop is rather finicky about passing the audio via HDMI: I finally managed to let the audio through last night but did not want to upload that one to YouTube for privacy issues. I will find another source and post that. And yes, the laptop has an HDMI port built in.

The one from my desktop (the nVidia) had no audio because it was coming from a DVI port with an adapter cable.

I still need to figure out how to convince my laptop to go all the way to 1080p or at least 1080i. It forces 720p at 60 fps. Yesterday I also received the Blackmagic HDMI to SDI adapter. That one seems to get 720p at 30 fps but no sound yet. All in all, it seems I do not really need the Blackmagic adapter. I am actually quite annoyed at Blackmagic. It is fairly expensive yet it does not come with any docs, software, or a USB cable: I had to download the docs and the software from their web site and use a USB cable I already had. And the software did nothing. The docs were about how to use the software but not the device itself.

Anyway, I will perform further tests, but both nVidia and ATI worked with the nanoFlash.

The first time I was working with the ATI (where I was playing the card game), it was recording nicely but it kept flashing a message about an "intermittent source". After that, I downloaded the latest ATI driver, rebooted the computer and did the second part of the ATI test (going to YouTube and recording a video of the browser) and this time, the nF did not flash the message.

The nVidia card has the most recent driver as well. I just installed it last week. This driver has added the support for 1080 "TV" and, as the test showed, it works. So, I still have to wonder if all those nVidia cards you mentioned did not work would work now with the latest driver software.

I also found that when I nearly filled up my card (SanDisk Extreme 60 MB/s, 32 GB), the nF would say there was no card. I moved about 9 GB from the card to my computer, but the nF still thought the card was full. I did not have enough space on my hard drive for it all, so I burned some files to a DVD 9, deleted them from the card, then moved the rest of the files to my hard drive. Even then I had trouble formatting the card in the nF, which kept saying something about an unrecognized card (I do not remember the exact words, it was late and I was ready for bed). I had to take the card out and stick it in several times until it finally agreed to format it. This worries me as it is not always possible to prevent applications from modifying the contents of the card (Vegas in particular likes to write to the card when you place something on its timeline directly from the card).

P.S. I just went to YouTube and I did not hear the audio multiple times. Is it possible you had the second video open in several browser windows at the same time? Then you would only see it once in whatever window was active, but you would hear the audio from each of them, overlapping. That is a common YouTube quirk.

Dear Adam,

Yes, I must have had multiple YouTube windows up accidently.

I tried it again, and the audio was fine.

The nanoFlash does not support taking cards to a computer, deleting some of the files, then reinserting the card into the nanoFlash.

This would cause fragmented files, thus slowing down the recording process.

After a card is uploaded to a computer, then we request that the card be reformatted in the nanoFlash.

The Unrecognized Card message indicates that this is a new card, or one that we do not recognize (such as the STT file being deleted). In this case the card must be formatted in the nanoFlash.

It is nice to know that the nanoFlash is working with your graphics card.

It is nice to know that the nanoFlash is working with your graphics card.

Sometimes... This morning I somehow switched my laptop's HDMI port to 1080p and redirected the sound through it as well. Here is the result. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jmzj1mdiQE) And I have been unable to switch the HDMI back to 720p, though it no longer sends the sound out through it.

The video card seems to have a mind of its own, and that is quite disappointing.

Dear Adam,

I watched your video and you noted that the audio was too loud.

You can adjust the audio gain in the nanoFlash.

Correction: Adam pointed out, correctly, that since the audio input was "Embedded", the Gain Settings in "Analog Settings" do not apply. Thanks Adam. For historical reason, l left my original comments below.

I recommend the following settings:

Audio:

In: Embedded
Preamp: 0dB
Gain: -3dB

Please let us know if this helps. The audio level meters may be used during recording to ensure that the audio levels are ok.

Also, you may adjust the audio level in your PC.

Really? Because that section is marked Analog Settings, I assumed it was only valid for analog sound.

Anyway, in the Windows Control Panel / Sound, I found a way of lowering the levels before they are sent out through HDMI and that works. My Test #4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz5_bCCfFuw) is being processed right now and should be available shortly.

I finally managed to record the full 1080p/30 and its sound. However, Sony Vegas could not decode the sound from the MXF file. I used the Snell & Wilcox utility to extract the video and the audio to separate files. The audio file had the AES extension suggesting that either the nanoFlash or the HDMI driver encrypted the audio.

Eventually I extracted the audio into a WAV file with VLC and Vegas was happy.

Dear Adam,

Yes, you are correct.

I was not thinking correctly, so I made a correction to my original post, above.

It is very strange that Vegas could not use the audio, without further procesing.

What version of Vegas are you using?

Are you creating ".MXF" files in the nanoFlash?