Why do you think so? As a longtime stills photographer, since when has the Rebel series ever approached the xxD series in quality, let alone the 7D or 5D?


The Rebel Ti/500D had cleaner high ISO's than the 50D. That was well known.

From what i understand this is an EU only regulation. Im pretty sure the 4GB limit (being normally around 12 mins) is purely due to FAT32 limitations so am very interested to see if this will mean an end of the limit with these new cards.

No, it's not a fat32 limitation, it's a choice by Canon, Nikon, Pentax etc, and yes, it _is_ due to the EU regulation. Canon/Nikon/Pentax is not releasing a EU only camera, so we're all stuck with the same limitation.

This has been discussed _many_ times.

I'll be watching this, my GL2 and a few dollars could go a long way.

If only it weren't for the time limit on it.

Is this codec similar to the new one Canon just announced? I'm wondering about what sort of computer horsepower would be needed to edit 720p. I've got a machine capable of HDV, but wouldn't go anywhere near AVCHD.

Greg

Is this codec similar to the new one Canon just announced? No. This is the same codec used in all HD-capable Canon D-SLRs since the EOS 5D Mk. II first came out.

The one that was announced is intended for a pro video camcorder, a tapeless replacement of the Canon XH series.

That's what I had guessed. I have some research ahead of me as to what editing that entails.

I'll see if I can get a hold of a little 7D footage from a buddy of mine and how my machine handles it.

Greg

FYI, I have a T1i and just tested transforming the mov files with Cineform into avi files and imported into Premiere CS4. Note that I was using 720p30, as the T1i's 1080p20 is useless! It edits just fine so I don't think you'll have a problem, depending on your workflow. I'm not done testing the Cineform Neoscene / NeoHD just yet. But the T2i files are supposedly just the same. (Hope this helps!)

having one processor vs. two.
any effect on video?
Or is it both video and stills?

JJ

I tested on a Dell Precision laptop with a Centrino dual core processor, 4GB ram and running Windows 7 enterprise. The process of importing the files from the built-in SD card onto an external RAID then Cineform conforming of about 30 minutes of video took about 15 minutes. (I didn't time it exactly, but it was still faster than real time, which is a good thing in my book!)

having one processor vs. two.
any effect on video?
Or is it both video and stills?

Remember that the 5D mkII only has one processor... And that certainly doesn't make a difference to the video... No idea about the stills.

It is an import taxation limit for normal Stills DSLR cameras which states that it will be raised to a higher taxation band if it is able to record more than 30-minutes at a time (which equates to all DSLRs providing maximum 30-mins of SD recording, or only around 12-mins max in higher HD mode).For the EU the customs duty on a camcorder is 4.9% while it is 0% for a stills camera. Although this difference in duty is often quoted as the reason for the limitation I seriously doubt that a Japanese company will make a design decision based on the fact that a particular model will cost the consumer 4.9% more in Europe than otherwise.

Specific European models of DV camcorders without Firewire input were produced because otherwise they were classed as VCRs with an import duty of 14.9%. It would be simple enough if Canon thought it necessary to produce a different firmware version for Europe that avoided the camcorder classification & extra 40 pounds 45 Euros on the price but the extra is so small as not to be worth considering.

No, it's not a fat32 limitation, it's a choice by Canon, Nikon, Pentax etc, and yes, it _is_ due to the EU regulation. Canon/Nikon/Pentax is not releasing a EU only camera, so we're all stuck with the same limitation.

This has been discussed _many_ times.As I have pointed out elsewhere the extra EU import duty is only 4.9% on a camcorder versus a stills camera i.e. 945 Euros instead of 900 Euros for the 550D. As a point of comparison in Europe sales tax (VAT/TVA) is around 20% in addition.

In the past the Japanese camera companies have produced specific European model DV camcorders so even if they thought the extra 45 Euros on consumer prices were significant they could easily develop specific firmware for the European market that kept under the 30 minute record time that classes a device as a camcorder.

This has been discussed _many_ times.

i've also seen it discussed many times (i'm basing my 'expertise' on bits and pieces i see discussed here at dvinfo and other places!) but i've never seen it discussed with this being given as the reason for the 5d/7d recording limits, are you sure youre not mixing it up with the GH1?

5d/7d recording limits

IIRC, there are three stages of limit: the 4GB limit, the overheating limit, and then the final cap at 29 minutes.

The first one, for docco/interviews at least, requires a 'weather eye' and a quick 'stop-start' when convenient, assuming scratch audio on-camera, one long take on the audio recorder, and something like PluralEyes.

The second one is odd, unpredictable, and why some people have at least a couple of bodies for these circumstances. I really hope this will be less of an issue with the 550/T2i.

The third and final one is the EU thing and just the sort of limit that's going to be hacked by some enterprising soul (like region blocks and FireWire IO).

I was debating between the 7D and 5D and now I'm getting T2i. I own the 5D (non Mark II purchased late in it's cycle) and love the full frame stills but like everyone else want the video feature of the current dslr's. The firmwear update for the current 5D kept me from pulling the trigger and I'm glad I did. For the price of the T2i I can keep my 5D and wait until the 5D mark whatever comes out.

For those that are interested B&H has the camera on it's site and you can use their email notification system to alert you when it's in.

Canon | Canon EOS Rebel T2i Digital SLR (Body Only) | B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/675617-REG/Canon__Canon_EOS_Rebel_T2i.html)

i've also seen it discussed many times (i'm basing my 'expertise' on bits and pieces i see discussed here at dvinfo and other places!) but i've never seen it discussed with this being given as the reason for the 5d/7d recording limits, are you sure youre not mixing it up with the GH1?

I think the reason it's not often mentioned is that the 12 minute limit in HD is due to the file limit. The 29 minute, 59 second in SD is due to the taxes on camcorders...but I don't think many people around here record in SD, so whenever the time limit comes up, it's discussed in relation to the file size limit.

It'd be great if the T2i went up to 29:59 in HD, but though people have talked about the SDXC cards allowing that, the specs on a couple of sites for the T2i (i.e. dpreview.com) specifically say that movies are limited to 4GB. My pessimistic nature makes me think Canon would have specifically said something about "almost unlimited file size of movie length with SDXC cards" if the camera supported that.

I was debating between the 7D and 5D and now I'm getting T2i.

This is an interesting decision. Many people here, having sat on the fence for so long, will probably go for a T2i/550.

Is it down to cost?

If it's possible to leave aside the cost difference... If you're looking at the video side only, does the extra durability swing you to the 7D, or the SDHC cards swing you back to the T2i/550?

And if we go 550, can we wait for the likes of M2 and Zacuto to make new viewfinders? (I find it kind of silly that, because I have a deadline of April but I also have 16 SDHC cards, I want to go 550 but may have to go 7D simply because there's a viewfinder available for it.)

Would you prefer a 7D if budget allows? Why?

Matt,

For the price you could buy the T2i and a really nice lens for less than the price of the 7D alone. (Heaven knows I don't need any more lenses, but I'm sure that would sway some people)

Good luck or bad, it seems whenever I purchase something, immediately following the next latest and greatest shows up. It happened when I purchased my 5D and again when last year I bought the A1s. Now that I think about it, it's been happening since I purchased my first Brownie in 1966.

So this time I'm getting this right out of the gate and this will keep me happy until the 5D mark whatever comes out, that's what I really want. I'll keep my 5D for stills and use the T2i for video in conjunction with the A1s and hv20.

Now that I know which way I going with this camera, I can start worrying about the A1s and it's replacement. Whenever I think about that, I find myself in a cold sweat clutching boxes and boxes of tapes, not sure if there is any future in solid state recording.....:)

I was debating between the 7D and 5D and now I'm getting T2i. I own the 5D (non Mark II purchased late in it's cycle) and love the full frame stills but like everyone else want the video feature of the current dslr's. The firmwear update for the current 5D kept me from pulling the trigger and I'm glad I did. For the price of the T2i I can keep my 5D and wait until the 5D mark whatever comes out.

I agree. I'd love Full Frame for wide angle. 5DM2 video is way behind the development/feature curve. A T2i and my Trusty old 30D will work for me until the 5DM3 ships. The T2i price is just too good to ignore. Competition is great, with the other SLR players and Red all crowding this market Canon is shipping some great products at amazing prices.

As I have pointed out elsewhere the extra EU import duty is only 4.9% on a camcorder versus a stills camera i.e. 945 Euros instead of 900 Euros for the 550D. As a point of comparison in Europe sales tax (VAT/TVA) is around 20% in addition.

In the past the Japanese camera companies have produced specific European model DV camcorders so even if they thought the extra 45 Euros on consumer prices were significant they could easily develop specific firmware for the European market that kept under the 30 minute record time that classes a device as a camcorder.

Double the difference for a 7D, 3x or 4x the difference for the 5Dm2 and on up, now it's hundreds of euros. Where do you start and stop? Then there's the issue of gray market cameras and the resulting warranty issues.

The fact is, Canon also does the same on even cheaper digicams, use the arbitrary 4gb limit. There's no file limit problem on even the cheapest Canon HD and flash based camcorders, they simply create another file, my HF100 actually does it at the 1gig mark. The fat32 4gig file limitation has been solved a long time ago, it's _not_ a technical limitation that requires exFAT or some other new technology. Canon and others are simply choosing to let 4gigs be a limitation.

Do we really think that something so simple as a 4gig file limitation is what is preventing a multi-billion dollar corporation like Canon from breaking the "12 min's in HD" limitation?

Do I also think that the EU tax happens to be a convenient excuse to cripple the T2i, 7D, 5Dm2, 1Dm4 etc? Yes. All of these cameras are still much cheaper than the cheapest interchangeable lens HD camcorder.

So, here's a little something for you all to chew on... Best footage test yet from this camera...

Sample Movie (http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos550d/player_book_of_days/movie.html?high)

Comes from this page:

Canon: EOS 550D / EOS REBEL T2i - Sample Images & Movies (http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos550d/)

Let the fray continue!

Thanks - I now feel like a trainspotter cross referencing all those shots to lenses.

Oh the joy of primes! The 50mm 1.8 did well, but definitely want the 50mm f1.4. That'll do, as they say. That'll do. Scratch that, I want the 85mm and that macro too...

But wait a minute - the best is last. The Canon /Kiss/ X4?

550D - very teutonic. Can't go wrong with that. Everyone happy. Rebel - mm'kay, T2i doesn't exactly trip of tounge and sounds like Tatooine's neighbor. But there is a region where this li'l puppy is called a Kiss X4?

They've always been the "Kiss" series in Japan, for quite awhile now. How sweet! Heh.

xxxx

DAMN!
I was looking at the 7D as well but this makes it a no brainer for my entry into the DSLR game. The fact it uses the same cards as my HMC-150 eases the strain too. I already have 144 gig of SDHC cards I could split between them!

NOW...my question since I know nothing about the variety of lenses out there (other than it's overwhelming) What would be a decent "bang for the buck" lens for the DOF effect, and what would be a good zoom lens for doing some distant shooting?

Yeah, I bet big, local (to some people) camera stores who also sell online like B&H get them pretty quickly. Faster than my local camera shop for sure. Oh, and they are sponsors too. The real contest is to see who can post the pictures of unpacking theirs so that Chris can put it as the first sticky in his brand new listing of EOS 550/T2i under "Canon HDV, AVCHD & EOS Camera Systems".

Canon usually ships to both online and local vendors at the same time. B&H will probably get several times as many units as a local store, though.

Well, I will just have to go for the Snog instead of the 7D now. My life would be incomplete without the 85mm and the 50 1.4. I survived on 135, 50 and 24 Nikkors for almost a decade (ohhh - going all misty-eyed), so the 85mm will be the talking heads lens and the 50 will get the 'doing stuff' shots... Got my adaptors on order for the Nikkor 11 and 17-55 2.8, so all set.

Right! (rubs hands)

Come on Canon, where's my camera?!

Chris can put it... in his brand new listing of EOS 550/T2i under "Canon HDV, AVCHD & EOS Camera Systems".That will happen as we get close to the actual ship date. I still need to fire up the new Sony NXCAM forum first...

Don't think they'll be shipping until early March. I do know there are test models out there, as youtube has a few sample clips to view (most of which aren't that great...can't wait for Bloom and Laforet to get their hands on one and give it a go). I've heard the vid specs are quite similar to the 7D. I'm interested to see how it handles low light, rolling shutter, etc. with both the L-glass and the cheaper lenses.

I was ready to buy my 7D, lenses, support, etc. Now I'm left wondering if it'd better serve me to save that extra $800 by going with the 550D... Is it roughly the same size as the 7D--enough so that the support, VF, etc. will fit without having to buy a bunch of extra plates and stuff? And with single processing versus the 7D's dual processing, how will that affect my video?

It's very exciting to see new stuff come out. A little more complicated for new buyers, but exciting nonetheless.

So, here's a little something for you all to chew on... Best footage test yet from this camera...

Sample Movie (http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos550d/player_book_of_days/movie.html?high)

Comes from this page:

Canon: EOS 550D / EOS REBEL T2i - Sample Images & Movies (http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos550d/)

Let the fray continue!



Ahhhh nice shallow DOF!!! Sharpness, color and indoor low light look great. I'm sold!

Philip Bloom is at it again. This one is even funnier than the 7D Downfall video:

Mr Hitler is really not happy about the new Canon 550D/ Rebel T2i (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdF-jHkO4AE)

It has a great ending.

Phil claims it'll be his last one... which should be a relief to Bruno Ganz.

Does that mean Phil thinks we've seen the end of innovation?!!

I think it means he finally realizes just how played out all of those numerous "Downfall"
parodies are -- there are scores of 'em on YouTube (well over 100), and I think their
day is pretty much done. Phil's versions always had the best dialog, though.

It's been almost like a variation of Godwin's Law. New technology comes out,
somebody does a "Downfall" parody. Not knocking Phil because his were funny,
but the saturation level was exceeded quite awhile back.

No, it's not a fat32 limitation, it's a choice by Canon, Nikon, Pentax etc, and yes, it _is_ due to the EU regulation. Canon/Nikon/Pentax is not releasing a EU only camera, so we're all stuck with the same limitation.

This has been discussed _many_ times.

Yes, it has been discussed many times and you are still wrong. For any storage device that has been formatted with FAT32, the maximum possible file size is 4 GB minus 1 byte (232−1 bytes). That is a fact.

I imagine the reason that Canon and Nikon don't employ the more modern NTFS file system is because even though it would allow for larger file sizes, it adds an additional layer of compression to the data. This extra layer of compression probably wouldn't degrade the image quality but it would definitely overload the processor in HD mode.

Canon is a manufacturer of electronic devices for a worldwide market. They do not globally "hobble" devices to circumvent the import duties of a small portion of their market.

What's strange to me is that the same FAT32 rules apply to their solid state consumer cameras, but they are able to deal with it by "chunking" the data. For example, on my HF100 no individual file is larger than 4GB, but the camera can create many of these files without dropping any frames while recording for long periods of time.

Why not do the same thing on their DSLRs? Why am I forced to push the record button every 12 minutes?

The 29:59 limit in SD mode is not due to the 4GB limit.

my HF100 no individual file is larger than 4GB, but the camera can create many of these files without dropping any frames while recording for long periods of time.

Why not do the same thing on their DSLRs? Because your HF100 is a camcorder and is defined as such.

D-SLRs are not defined as camcorders, they are still-photo cameras. That is the distinction, and that is the reason why they are hobbled with 30 min. video recording, to prevent classification as a camcorder and therefore taxed higher (in the EU, but affects all cameras worldwide as there is only one model worldwide, and not a separate model for the EU). In other words, the limitation is there to keep the price down.

Guys, we're not going to debate the reason why the file size limitation is there, because that debate is not going to change anything... the fact is that the 4GB limitation exists, and yes it will be present even when recording to SDXC cards. For what it's worth, I've been told by more than one person at Canon USA that the reason is due mainly to the EU restrictions. Let's stop arguing about it please. Arguing about it doesn't change the fact that it's there.

For all we know it could even be some Canon internal agreement enforced between the still camera division & camcorder division so that the former doesn't steal customers of the latter.

Canon has completely re-organized last year and those previously separate divisions have since merged together. Within Canon USA, high-end camcorders such as the forthcoming tapeless replacement to the XH series plus all existing HDV models, together with the entire still photography EOS Digital SLR line and the imagePROGRAF large format printers are now all under the auspices of PPMD (Professional Products Marketing Division). Blame it on convergence, but those product lines are not competing with each other.

It's been almost like a variation of Godwin's Law. New technology comes out,
somebody does a "Downfall" parody. Not knocking Phil because his were funny,
but the saturation level was exceeded quite awhile back.

The original parody about the D3x was the best:

YouTube - Hitler rants about D3x (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnwf2RShNV0)

Some of the subtitles even matched what Hitler was saying. All of the other camera/Downfall parodies were probably derived from this original one since they seem to follow the same basic script.

As for the T2i, looks like a nice camera. I've been waiting for something like this at this price point. I'm most likely getting this one!

that is the reason why they are hobbled with 30 min

30 minutes sounds pretty good to me! is there any reason people dont think we'll see an increase in recording limit with the new cards?

(sorry chris i know you said you dont want to discuss it but i think its kind of a big potential selling point, for me at least - but i agree theres no need to argue about it!)

edited post.

...are now all under the auspices of PPMD (Professional Products Marketing Division)..

That sounds like a Canon USA (marketing) re-org. The structure in Japan might be different.

So being a complete newbie to the DSLR front... The 4 gig limit that we are talking about literally means that you have to hit record every 12 min or so???? I had assumed that it just recorded continuously but no file was larger than 4 g's. ( A whole bunch of 4 gig that you later stitch back together.)

how the heck does anyone shoot a whole ceremony with one of these!?
ha! :o)
I guess it will still be amazing for the cutaways, B-roll, etc but I probably wont be tossing out my XHA1s anytime soon...
I had hoped I could mount a few around the church inconspicuously, hit record, and then let'em roll... all the while roving with a 5th 550D getting the creatives....
32 gig card at 4 gig per 12 min = 96 min... That's plenty for the ceremonys I shoot.
What are others doing for this then? manning all cams? running them in intervals?
Very excited to see how this plays out for my wedding business....
:o)

Darrick,

That's a better question to post in the Weddings forum.

Personally I use the dslr for b-roll at weddings, though there are a few that use only dslr.

Dslr are just another tool in the box. There are certainly situations where the traditional camera is still superior, though I find myself more and more reaching for the 5d2 instead of the XLh1.

That sounds like a Canon USA (marketing) re-org. The structure in Japan might be different.Canon USA is Canon Inc.'s biggest customer. As far as the US market is concerned, the pro video and D-SLR product lines are managed by the same team of tech reps and sales managers. In other words, they don't compete against each other -- they're all under the same roof.

My point is that R&D, engineering, and product planning could be organized very differently, and those are the groups that most influence the technology and products that we enjoy. Personally, I have yet to work in a company in which marketing drives products. They're usually focused on selling what they've got rather than envisioning what we could have in the future.

Among most major corporations including all of the major camcorder manufacturers (not just Canon), marketing drives products. Marketing determines what the product will be. They are the product planning division, and it is very much a customer-driven approach.

32 gig card at 4 gig per 12 min = 96 min... That's plenty

Don't forget that these cameras can overheat. A colleague has switched to DSLR from HVX (lucky he didn't sell it!). Leave them on, shoot lots, and the li'l red thermometer starts flashing, and if you don't do anything about that, the camera will. It shuts down. The end. No switch back on until IT is ready, not you.

Luminaries such as Dan Chung and Philip Bloom mention it in passing, but that immediately will discount DSLRs from some shoots - half way through speeches?

Got a spare body for that moment? Not even that would really work.

Remember, Philip Bloom shoots only 15% of his work on DSLR. For videographers, it's an additional, special effects, crashcam, arty GV, sneaky stolen shot, night-time camera. It gives good 'interview' too. But long form? I'm glad I've got two EX1s for that.

Over-heating is a concern - though with the price of the Rebel, buy two bodies and switch them through the day to keep them from overheating!

I agree though, there's a lot of stuff that I wouldn't use a DSLR for.