I'm really over Adobe and their "upgrades" Now with CS5 coming out and requiring a brand new super computer to run it, it seems like a good time to make the switch. If I have to buy another computer anyway I might as well get a Mac. So for those of you who have made the switch, how hard is it to get up to speed on Final Cut and Motion? Was it like learning a new language or just a different dialect? And what kind of specs on a Mac do I need to make it sing??? And can I use my current monitors or do I need a Mac specific monitor?

Have you used Mac OSX before? Any previous knowledge with the environment helps.
All NLE share commonalities, such as, timeline based editing, source/record monitors, rendering, ect. So, the short answer is it will not be like learning a new language but using that same example, the best way to learn is total immersion.

As for monitors, are they 1920x1080? I ask because monitors have fallen so greatly in price these days it is worth it to have at least that type of pixel ratio. I use apple's 30" - although that is almost overkill and the refresh rate is slow (as apposed to ACD).

If I were in your boat, I would look at eBay and getting a used MacPro. Nothing too fancy or new - these older late 2008 systems are more than sufficient for heavy duty editing plus you'll save some money.

There are so many great books and resources for learning this system. Also, hanging around forums is a great way to pick up chops when you are switching platforms.

Good Luck,
-C

The first NLE I ever used was Premiere. I had crashes and frustrations with it. Pretty much like any complex applcaition :)

I switched to FCS because of clients that wanted FCS centric assets. I have had crashes and frustrations with Final Cut as well. It's the nature of the beast with these things. All of that being said, I have no regrets switching to FCS and the Mac platform. I think the value of the FCS product for $1K is unmatched:

A robust NLE (FCP), an incredible audio application (STP), a slick motion graphics / compositing app (Motion), an incredible color correction application (Color), a networkable batch compression app (Compressor) and an OK DVD mastering app (DVDSP).

The only Adobe apps I use now are After Effects and Photoshop.

If you are just starting out on FC, there are a TON of great resources on the net for learning it:

Final Cut Pro (All Versions) Tutorials & Training (http://www.lynda.com/home/ViewCourses.aspx?lpk0=345)
Final Cut Studio Tutorials, Final Cut Pro Tips, Seminars and Training (http://www.larryjordan.biz)
Ken Stone's Final Cut Pro (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/fcp_homepage_index.html)

And many others. Larry Jordan has a great free newsletter for FCP that I highly recommend.

And finally, bear in mind that switching to a Mac is not some panacea that solves all of your problems. The Mac has one overriding failure and it will always have this issue: It's a computer.

HTH

Have you used Mac OSX before? Any previous knowledge with the environment helps.
All NLE share commonalities, such as, timeline based editing, source/record monitors, rendering, ect. So, the short answer is it will not be like learning a new language but using that same example, the best way to learn is total immersion.

As for monitors, are they 1920x1080? I ask because monitors have fallen so greatly in price these days it is worth it to have at least that type of pixel ratio. I use apple's 30" - although that is almost overkill and the refresh rate is slow (as apposed to ACD).

If I were in your boat, I would look at eBay and getting a used MacPro. Nothing too fancy or new - these older late 2008 systems are more than sufficient for heavy duty editing plus you'll save some money.

There are so many great books and resources for learning this system. Also, hanging around forums is a great way to pick up chops when you are switching platforms.

Good Luck,
-C

Thanks for the advice and I have used a Mac a grand total of 1 time and it was last week when a guy I work with had his laptop with him. He has a copy of CS4 on it and I was able to go just about as fast on it as I am on a PC. Not to worried about the OS learning curve, but I am concerned about the editor. I downloaded Avid Media Composer's free trial and man that thing is not user friendly to me. About the monitors that I have, they are 24 inch Samsungs with HDMI, they are 1920 and only about 6 months old.

Again thanks for the advice and yea I know that they all have bugs, but have you seen the specs that Adobe is quoting for CS5???? They are crazy and although I have a Nividia 3800 card already it seems pretty ridiculous to require a $1,000.00 dollar (and up) video card to run a NLE... on top of a computer that is outrageous.

Any advice on what I should be looking for in a Mac to edit with FC? My workflow is 7D to cineform to NLE.

Yeah I am aware of the sys reqs for CS5 as my company has been doing stuff with closed beta. What is your budget for the new setup? Do you have a preference for desktop or laptop?

Jerry,

Right now is a tad early to consider jumping platforms. Apple is on the cusp of releasing what they claim to be "next-gen" hardware both in laptop and tower configurations; Adobe's final version of CS5 has yet to go gold so final requirements are subject to change.

Also, the debate as to whether or not to switch from PC to Mac or the reverse has been covered in multiple threads with relevant threads that started less than a month ago. I'd use the search feature and read up on what's being exchanged before recycling what is now very reused information.

Unless Apple brings much required updates and bug fixes to both the FC suite and their hardware there *currently* is no compelling reason to invest in the time and money required to switch platforms. In fact you can get more done for a lot less money on a PC platform than currently possible on a Mac. In many instances - not just BR authoring - it's common for Mac-based editors to have to switch over to a PC platform, either stand-alone or via Boot Camp to finish a job. Seems ludicrous that having a Mac would ever require investing in PC-based assets to complete any work but that's the reality currently.

Lastly: 99% of people who make the switch either direction are never fully prepared for the hidden "gotchas" of migrating their entire library of programs and media over to the new platform, taking much longer and or costing more money than they had imagined. Spend extra time doing your due-diligence before pulling out the wallet; time spent now could save you hours and or hundreds if not thousands of dollars later in mistakenly putting money where it's not required.

Thanks Robert,
Sage advice from the resident expert! Maybe I should just deal with what I have until it simply will not work anymore. That's what I did in the past when money was SUPER tight and I always seemed to pull through. This stuff is just moving so fast these days and (I always seem to crave the latest and greatest when the older stuff worked just fine.) Maybe CS6 and a new computer in a two years is really what I should be thinking of.

In many instances - not just BR authoring - it's common for Mac-based editors to have to switch over to a PC platform, either stand-alone or via Boot Camp to finish a job. Seems ludicrous that having a Mac would ever require investing in PC-based assets to complete any work but that's the reality currently.

So, outside of BR authoring, what are they having to switch to Windows to do?

I have to say that I have been a Windows user for years before switching to Mac & FCS.
I love the Mac way and FCS in every way other than no Blur-Ray.

I occasional have to use Windows and man it's so buggy. I now have Windows XP on my Mac and run VMWare which is fantastic and so easy to use.

Any advice on what I should be looking for in a Mac to edit with FC? My workflow is 7D to cineform to NLE.

First check about transfering the video files from the 7D camera to a Mac. Some people had problems with this last year although I heard that using a card reader instead of a direct USB connection with the camera avoided this.

You might investigate using Apple's Pro Res codec instead of CineForm. It works really well for most situations and it comes with FCS. If you have a chance, get to an Apple store and play around with FCP and Motion. Switching from Premier to FCP isn't that much of a leap although I did that a long time ago for 24f projects. Motion is a different beast and while I know a number of people who quickly became quite proficient with it, I haven't been able to make the leap from AE for anything.

If your workflow is as simple as you describe it should be a painless switch-over. I have guided dozens of clients with no Mac experience into their first Final Cut set-up and none have really had any problems outside of the initial learning curve. Just two days ago a long time PC centric IT friend (who sneered at Macs) just got his first MacPro with FCS and all he could say was that he was in heaven.

I know many people and production facilities with FCP stations and none switch over to PC for anything. Edit and finish in Macs. Now there are situations where a PC might be needed but outside of complex BluRay authoring, these are situations that are usually in the very high-end production environment.

I would also recommend waiting a little, unless your sanity is under immediate attack. You can edit easily HD ProRes files with a 2-core iMac and an external FireWire800 drive. If you are in the habit of applying lots of filters, you might want to look into the 27" 4-core iMac or a quad-core MacPro. The rumor is that Apple is preparing to release 6-core and 12-core MacPros in the next few months so waiting is a good idea.

Thanks Robert,
Sage advice from the resident expert! Maybe I should just deal with what I have until it simply will not work anymore. That's what I did in the past when money was SUPER tight and I always seemed to pull through. This stuff is just moving so fast these days and (I always seem to crave the latest and greatest when the older stuff worked just fine.) Maybe CS6 and a new computer in a two years is really what I should be thinking of.

One quick method of clarification as to whether or not making the shift makes fiscal sense is this: Take up a general snapshot of the entire cost of switching, both hardware and software. Then figure out how long it will take you to recoup those costs, in other words, the new stuff has to be able to pay for itself in a reasonable timeframe, usually less than 6 months. And "paying for itself" means that the new equipment is able to help you make *more* money than the old, not just keep the status-quo of your current profitability.

The rule for our industry is that there's generally no reason to purchase new hardware/software until things are either so outdated that you're no longer competitive or, you have a massive failure in hardware requiring a large cash sum to replace what's broken. Outside of that, simply getting the "latest and greatest" or worse, totally switching over platforms could not only be expensive but could easily take away your profits without replenishing them.

As I'm fond of saying in this weakened economy: More than ever before it's wise to take a serious look at your business need and step away from the emotional drive to get the new toy.

This spring promises to showcase plenty of truly new updates in everything from cameras to NLE plug-in's by the time NAB hits. Unlike the past 2 years which were dismal in the lack of new offerings or significant updates logic dictates it would be both fiscally and pragmatically smart to see what's coming down the pike and determine if the "new" will give you better capabilities or, just take money out of your bank account. Until that information is fully disclosed it would be foolish to consider opening the wallet.

If you've got a hole burning in your pocket right now, train those dollars on spiffing-up your skill-set; more knowledge is vastly more powerful than more equipment.

I know many people and production facilities with FCP stations and none switch over to PC for anything. Edit and finish in Macs. Now there are situations where a PC might be needed but outside of complex BluRay authoring, these are situations that are usually in the very high-end production environment.

My wife has edited feature films, shorts, TV shows for ESPN and Home and Garden TV. All in FCP. She has never gone over to a Windows environment to fill a gap here. I am still curious about Robert's statement here:

In many instances - not just BR authoring - it's common for Mac-based editors to have to switch over to a PC platform, either stand-alone or via Boot Camp to finish a job. Seems ludicrous that having a Mac would ever require investing in PC-based assets to complete any work but that's the reality currently.

What gap are these people filling in a Windows environment, Robert?

My wife has edited feature films, shorts, TV shows for ESPN and Home and Garden TV. All in FCP. She has never gone over to a Windows environment to fill a gap here. I am still curious about Robert's statement here:

What gap are these people filling in a Windows environment, Robert?

Just because one person on the FC suite has a specific workflow doesn't mean the rest of the community follows lock-step.

Aside from the obvious missing Blu-Ray options here's just a few:

- P2 MXF is easier to handle on the PC side (the distinction is less so now that third parties have stepped in to add functionality); all PC-based NLE's don't require transcoding, it's all drag-n-drop. FCP to this day still requires Log & Transfer or a third-party plug-in. Mac OSX will attempt to write Spotlight data to P2 cards when inserted (unless they're write protected first), to my knowledge no version of Windows makes that attempt (Win 7 might change that).

- Some audio workflows can *only* be done on a PC because the requisite Pro Tools hardware still doesn't talk to OSX. (this is supposedly being fixed this year)

- All hardware-based MPEG2 stream and program encoders are PC-controlled only and to date, no software-based encoder, not even the Omni-Cinemacraft plug-in for Compressor can compare to the top-notch quality of a hardware encode.

This is just a small sampling of some of the gaps in pro workflows but the point being, there are a few key areas that Apple has fallen way behind from it's PC brethren. It's not that it can't be done in OSX it's just that many of the developers for the technologies simply don't get support from Apple to make it happen. It's one reason Flash, for example, has always been an issue for Mac; Steve Jobs is very outspoken about his discontent for anything Adobe.

Any advice on what I should be looking for in a Mac to edit with FC? My workflow is 7D to cineform to NLE.You won't want or need Cineform as ProRes is equivalent & supplied with FCP. First Light which is the Neoscene equivalent of Colour the application that is part of FCS is only available as part of Neoscene HD at $1000. As mentioned previously the Final Cut Studio package is a great bargain.

On a more general note I see a whole raft of postings in forums from long term Windows users saying how happy they are to have switched to Mac. I don't think that I have ever seen a single posting from a long term Mac user who is grateful to have switched to Windows.

Just because one person on the FC suite has a specific workflow doesn't mean the rest of the community follows lock-step.

I was not trying to imply that at all. My question was genuine. Thanks for the response.

I was not trying to imply that at all. My question was genuine. Thanks for the response.

Right - that wasn't my intended meaning but I'm going on less than 6 hours sleep in 2 days so I'd expect my english skills have all but disappeared by now...

...I don't think that I have ever seen a single posting from a long term Mac user who is grateful to have switched to Windows.

You certainly won't see that on a Mac-centric forum however, one of my biggest clients did the unthinkable last year and spent 2 months completely migrating their entire post suite over to a Win/Avid/Edius/Scenarist platform after getting tired of the "wait and pray" that Apple would finally deliver everything they'd been waiting for. In fact I posted a fairly thorough overview of their reasons for the changeover and their subsequent feedback here on the forum after having their new systems online for a time; they're completely happy.

As always with threads/debates like this it should always be pointed out that there is no such thing as the "perfect" system across the board; each has it's weaknesses, triumphs and things that go bump in the night that make us all nuts. The key is stepping away from the emotional nonsense that the marketeers want us to use for our purchasing decisions and stick with factual, real-world info.

On a more general note I see a whole raft of postings in forums from long term Windows users saying how happy they are to have switched to Mac. I don't think that I have ever seen a single posting from a long term Mac user who is grateful to have switched to Windows.

You will find many of them if you go to Canopus and there Edius forum

Cheers

Hans

One quick method of clarification as to whether or not making the shift makes fiscal sense is this: Take up a general snapshot of the entire cost of switching, both hardware and software. Then figure out how long it will take you to recoup those costs, in other words, the new stuff has to be able to pay for itself in a reasonable timeframe, usually less than 6 months. And "paying for itself" means that the new equipment is able to help you make *more* money than the old, not just keep the status-quo of your current profitability.

I switched to Mac 2 years ago. And I partially agree with you here. However, if you have to end up on the Mac it's always cheaper to do it earlier than later. Your 6 month timeframe is too short. And you also have to factor in future costs. I believe the costs of ownership for a Mac are actually less than a PC. It may take a few years to realize this. Since I switched to Mac my hardware costs have dropped precipitously along with OS problems and maintenance time. I was continually replacing power supplies and motherboards on the PC. And dealing with an OS that was not as fast as it should be. I believe the Mac hardware and software is superior to anything on the PC side. And workstation PCs are actually no cheaper than the Mac counterpart.

The ultimate thing that led me to Mac. I can edit FCP on Mac and not a PC. Avid and Adobe are on both. So if you want access to all major editing programs (excluding Vegas which doesn't have broad professional acceptance) you have to be on a Mac.

The costs of switching are not insignificant. I probably spent around $2500 to switch software, but I probably had more than the average user with audio plug-ins, multimedia programs, etc. Some of these programs were getting to the necessary point to upgrade on the PC so I'd have had to spend some money there anyways.

Ultimately switching to Mac has made my life a lot easier. It was well worth the cost.

You will find many of them if you go to Canopus and there Edius forum

Cheers

Hans

I think that's Thomson/Grass Valley (http://www.grassvalley.com/products/edius_5) now...

You will find many of them if you go to Canopus and there Edius forum

Cheers

HansI took a look. I couldn't find any.

I found guys wishing that Edius would run on Mac OS. I found guys wishing that Edius would run on Windows 7. I found guys who were happy to have switched from other NLEs to Edius. I found guys who were running Edius on Macs using Bootcamp.

I did not find a single post from someone saying he was happy to have dumped Mac OS in favour of Windows.

Thanks everyone for you input and insight. What I'm hearing here is to sit tight for a little while and see how it works out. Mac has major hardware coming soon and CS5 is due to release in the spring (which means it will be out of BETA by the fall) well it's a good time to be where I sit then. I have a system (albeit frustrating to work with sometimes) that works and now I need to wait and see who gets the next big chunk of my paycheck.....

Thanks for the discussion. I'm a PC user as well looking to make the switch, so I truly appreciate the comments from the MAC folks. Actually, I was trained on Avids back in the day when they were only on MACs.

I'm in the XDCAM camp now, and just tried my EX3 footage with FCP and Snow Leopard.

I'm going to hold off making a purchasing decision (either Mac or PC) until CS5 and until Apple makes some more splashes with new hardware.

My thoughts (and where I'm at):
1) I like having the choice of Adobe Premiere and FCP on one workstation, but it's not critical for my work. (=MAC)
2) I NEED a substantial Blu-Ray authoring application. I'm familiar with Encore and the CS workflow already. (Not to mention Bridge w/ After Effects, Photoshop, etc) If I go with a Mac, I'll NEED to invest in both software applications right out of the gate to deliver to clients. (=PC)
3) I did some rendering tests with FCP. I was surprised it didn't use all of the available processors or RAM. It could have been a setup issue (as I'm no MAC expert yet), but if I'm going to invest in hardware, I want it optimized. (=?) I'll wait to see what CS REALLY needs and where Macs are headed.
4) The amount of software/hardware configurations and support on the PC side is insane. With Premiere CS4, I need Main Concept plugin to export XDCAM. Lots of other "hidden" issues. (=MAC?)

Again - I appreciate everyone's thoughts and insights!

On issue 4, FCP is not adept at using multiple processors and is also a 32bit application. While the current version of the Mac OS is indeed 64 bit, FCP has not yet been updated to take advantage of that.

That being said, I have never really had much of a performance issue with FCP. I say that with the caveat that I run a 2.8 gHz 8 core machine and rarely use any effect more complex than a simple transition.

Compressor, however, DOES use multiple cores and can also delegate processing to other machines on a network. Since this is the app that you will use to conform final output with, Apple focused on making it the performance champ in the suite.

Now, all of that being said, I suspect we will see a 64 bit update to FCS. Recently, Apple's DAW software, Logic Studio, received a free update to bring the app to 64 bit. It's a huge improvement. And it was free.

A robust NLE (FCP), an incredible audio application (STP), a slick motion graphics / compositing app (Motion), an incredible color correction application (Color), a networkable batch compression app (Compressor) and an OK DVD mastering app (DVDSP).



I think this is the best description I've seen for FCS on this forum. It summarizes what FCS actually is, rather than stressing what it isn't.

4) The amount of software/hardware configurations and support on the PC side is insane. With Premiere CS4, I need Main Concept plugin to export XDCAM. Lots of other "hidden" issues. (=MAC?)

The last version of Premiere that I used was Premiere Pro 2, so I don't know how it's now, but with FCP, you just buy one version which has support for MANY MANY codecs in importing or exporting. You can output easily in the XDCAM codec, or write back to an XDCAM disc if you want (if you have a deck attached and use the Export to XDCAM command in FCP, which also uses the XDCAM Transfer Tool by Sony).

So, with FCP you don't need extra hidden purchases to export or import many professional codecs, which is really nice. When I used Premiere in version 2, you indeed needed to 'buy' extra plugins to be able to import certain formats.

One format you can't export to in Compressor out of the box is Flash...

But you can export to H.264, and then just change the extension from .mov to .flv and
guess what? You've got a flash file that will play just fine......

But you can export to H.264, and then just change the extension from .mov to .flv and guess what? You've got a flash file that will play just fine......No, you have an H.264 MPEG4 file that should play OK in newer versions of the Flash Player.

Ok, you got me there :-)

But you can use it just as if it were a flash file.....I've built a flash player on several
different websites and they play back this type of file just great.

Didn't come from Premiere but from Sony Vegas. Didn't take long to get up to speed in FCP coming from Vegas so I guess from Premiere won't be a problem as they are more similar. I never looked back and love FCS. By the way, you mentioned Motion. Motion is good but it is no AE if that's what you are expecting.

Aperture too was recently updated to 64-bit so I suspect Final Cut Studio is next. And I suspect it will be announced as a free update at NAB 2010.