I guys,
I'm having one last go at getting a Blu Ray out of DVD Architect 5.
I have had no luck so far as DVDArc stops half way and produces various errors and right now I don't have this info on me.
When I building the DVD and prep for the build DVDArc says that my bit-rate is to high and needs to get under 28mbps. Now this is weird as I thought Blu Ray had a peak of 40meg and could go an average of 34meg.
My previous renders have been 34mbps avg and peak @ 38mbps

Can anyone help me with this matter and offer me some advice.

Cheers

Simon,

This is why I mentioned last night... if you are going to do AVC BluRay in DVDA, make the bit rate no higher than 16Mbps. If you are making an Mpeg2 Bluray, then keep the rate at or under 25Mbps.

You can take my advice and make it work.. or you can keep getting errors. I've been and done that. Doing it again tomorrow with a DNxHD .MOV file coming out of FCP.

Hi Perrone,

Thanks for the info. Is this 25Mbps avg? What should my peak be.

Thanks

"Thanks for the info. Is this 25Mbps avg? What should my peak be."

there is no option for defining peak in DVD-A (least i haven't seen it).

the workflow Perrone is describing is not the same one normally used for authoring DVD's using Vegas/DVD-A, ie: render a great mpeg-2 from Vegas which quickly transcodes in DVD-A).

the workflow is more like:
1) render a high-quality master from Vegas
2) load up a Blu-Ray preset in DVD-A
3) have DVD-A do the rendering from master to mpeg-2

i'm using AVC rather than MPEG-2... haven't tried VC-1 yet (gotta figure out what software to author with).

anyway, been testing AVC bit-rates of 16Mbps and 18Mpbs in DVD-A: tried 25Mbps and after 15-20 minutes the bluray player began having difficulties with playback (strobing, pulldown-like quality to motion)

note: i'm working with 1280x720@23.976 (your mileage may vary)

good luck

It's truly a sad state of affairs. After more than a dozen attempts of trying to get something workable out of Vegas to go into DVDA without a re-encode, I gave up. I just rendered my master from Vegas for archiving, and then dropped that master into DVDA and let it do the encode. That took I don't know HOW many false starts trying to find a bit rate that actually worked.

This is the total opposite from how I do SD DVDs... but I don't have time to waste when I am trying to deliver product. I've got to push one out the door tomorrow, and it's rendering at the office right now. Every one of these I have done has played perfectly.

As soon as I can move to a better BluRay authoring tool, I am GONE...

Hey Guys,
I'm on Mac and using VMware Fusion to run Windows on my Mac.
Now Perrone are you saying that you render out an AVI from Vegas and them import this into DVD-A and let DVD-A render this out to it's respective files.

I used to be a Vegas user with DVD-A for years and I'm now FCP, Mac of course.
So with Blur-Ray in DVD-A you don't bring in pre rendered files, is this correct?

Cheers

Hey Guys,
I'm on Mac and using VMware Fusion to run Windows on my Mac.
Now Perrone are you saying that you render out an AVI from Vegas and them import this into DVD-A and let DVD-A render this out to it's respective files.

I used to be a Vegas user with DVD-A for years and I'm now FCP, Mac of course.
So with Blur-Ray in DVD-A you don't bring in pre rendered files, is this correct?

Cheers

Essentially, yes this is correct. Except my masters are usually not AVI files. But everything else you said is correct.

I'm attempting the same thing as Simon Ash. I used to edit in Vegas and have switched to Mac. I still own Vegas 8 with DVDA 5.0b. I have an 8 core Mac Pro with FCP 7. I'm running Windows 7 using Bootcamp to run DVDA. I'm attempting to burn a BD-RE using a Panasonic BDR-205 burner inside the Mac.

Can anyone give specific settings for FCP or Compressor to use in DVDA? Using Compressor, I've tried MPEG-2 and as long as the file has the .mpg extension, DVDA will accept it. The result was not very good at default levels. I'm trying a higher resolution in Compressor but the render is taking 26 hours for a 30 min. movie. I'll report back on those results.

I've tried Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) on an .avi clip and it burned beautifully in DVDA. For some reason DVDA does not accept the ProRes when I export the entire movie. This is all being done in Compressore using the same settings.

Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Why are you doing ProRes in an AVI? Install quicktime in your bootcamped Win7, export a ProRes file from FCP put that into DVDA, and render out. Works fine (other than the gamma shift). I am currently working with a project where the FCP editor is exporting Avid DNxHD files from FCP and handing them off to me to burn on DVDA. Working beautifully. Just handed a new Blu Ray off an noon today.

Perrone, thanks for responding. What's better for .avi? Just leave it alone and import into FCP or some other render before importing?

Perrone,
I don't understand why it is so problematic in your case, but I input an MXF file to DVDA, and it renders out to 35mbps AVC Blu-ray iso that plays just fine on the several Blu-ray players I have. I'm living in the past with version 8.0(c), but I don't ever have a problem with either the bit rate or finishing the render. I suspect it's just happy getting MXF for source files.

That said, there's no reason to toil away on something creating so much grief. I know Deank's free authoring app (Doom9 forums) uses TSMuxer to author nice menus, and it's majorly more forgiving since it doesn't insist on fully compliant spec to author flexible output. The name of it escapes me now, but I'll post it later. This is from my Blackberry.

I've said this before, but I find the AVC output from DVDA to be exceptional in quality, you just don't get much control with so few parameters beyond bit rate, and it's slow. But being mired at 16mbps is not necessary. The AVC encoder that sucks is the one in Vegas, not DVDA. And for sure, that sorry piece of junk does confine you to 16mbps. Perhaps what's going on is that you are still trying to get DVDA to smart render a source file that came from Vegas? If so, you are indeed trapped to either the Vegas 16mbps AVC or 25mbps mpeg-2 at the default template settings.

Perrone, thanks for responding. What's better for .avi? Just leave it alone and import into FCP or some other render before importing?

I have no idea what you just asked me.

Perrone, thanks for responding. What's better for .avi? Just leave it alone and import into FCP or some other render before importing?

I've said this before, but I find the AVC output from DVDA to be exceptional in quality, you just don't get much control with so few parameters beyond bit rate, and it's slow. But being mired at 16mbps is not necessary. The AVC encoder that sucks is the one in Vegas, not DVDA. And for sure, that sorry piece of junk does confine you to 16mbps. Perhaps what's going on is that you are still trying to get DVDA to smart render a source file that came from Vegas? If so, you are indeed trapped to either the Vegas 16mbps AVC or 25mbps mpeg-2 at the default template settings.

I am not smart rendering anything. But I am also not putting any MXF files on the DVDA timeline. Maybe if I get bored one day I'll fool with another workflow. Nice to know that someone is having success.

I was able to burn the Blu-ray disk and it looks great. I started with a new sequence and used the ProRes 422 (HQ) files that I converted eariler from camera .AVI I set the A/V settings to match the ProRes. An experimental ten minute video took one minute to export using QT. DVDA took eight minutes to render and burn the BD. I'm having a beer, maybe two/eight to celebrate.

I've said this before, but I find the AVC output from DVDA to be exceptional in quality, you just don't get much control with so few parameters beyond bit rate, and it's slow. But being mired at 16mbps is not necessary. The AVC encoder that sucks is the one in Vegas, not DVDA. And for sure, that sorry piece of junk does confine you to 16mbps.

I partly agree on this. However, being mired at 16 Mbps is perfectly fine if the end result is going to be HD content on red-laser DVD (aka BD9/"BD5" or "AVCHD" DVD) - but IMHO too low if the end result is going to be authored onto true BD-R/RE disc. But the Vegas' Sony AVC encoder may cause crashes on some systems, and does error out when the overall bitrate is set above 17 Mbps. This is what sucks about the encoder, not the image quality (unless the overall bitrate is set too low for the content being encoded).

The version of the MainConcept AVC encoder included in Vegas Pro, on the other hand, sucks for a different reason: It was intended primarily for low-definition or standard-definition encodes for use in a portable media player (e.g. an MP3 audio player with video playback capability). High-definition encodes are possible, but will never be compliant with Blu-Ray standards. (MainConcept does sell a version of the AVC encoder that is Blu-Ray compliant, but that encoder will set you back a couple of thousand bucks.)

And yes, 16 Mbps AVC encoded with the Sony AVC encoder does produce superior image quality over the typical 25 Mbps MPEG-2 HD encode, especially with the right content.

I partly agree on this. However, being mired at 16 Mbps is perfectly fine if the end result is going to be HD content on red-laser DVD (aka BD9/"BD5" or "AVCHD" DVD) - but IMHO too low if the end result is going to be authored onto true BD-R/RE disc. But the Vegas' Sony AVC encoder may cause crashes on some systems, and does error out when the overall bitrate is set above 17 Mbps. This is what sucks about the encoder, not the image quality (unless the overall bitrate is set too low for the content being encoded).

I agree.

The version of the MainConcept AVC encoder included in Vegas Pro, on the other hand, sucks for a different reason: It was intended primarily for low-definition or standard-definition encodes for use in a portable media player (e.g. an MP3 audio player with video playback capability).

Also agree.

I took 100 mbps 4:2:2 mxf file from the EX1 with Nanoflash, dropped it onto the Vegas timeline. Since the Nano changes the header to make Vegas recognize the file as 50 mbps XDCAM 422, it also smart renders it out with no recompression. The smart rendered MXF is not accepted by DVDA 5.0 as compliant, so it recompresses it. It would have to anyway, nothing in the optical realm (Blu-ray) can play 50 mbps. So it's not really worth it to smart render at this stage, unless your intent is to let DVDA use its superb AVC final render from this native MXF source, to AVC h.264 Blu-ray.

On the other hand, if I used the Main Concept Mpeg-2 encoder inside Vegas, it output a nice quality 35 mbps (average) using the 2-pass encoder, which is fairly quick. I set the max bitrate for 40 mbps, av 35 mbps, min 30 mbps. This file when rendered from Vegas was accepted by DVDA 5.0 for smart rendering with no recompression.

So I dunno. It works without much problem for me, especially well as Perrone noted with MXF source files, either straight from the cam (EX1/EX3/PMW350), or from the Nanoflash at 100 mbps 4:2:2.

But again, this is Vegas 8.0(c) and DVDA 5.0 running under Microsoft Vista.

Old thread this I know, to clarify fro previous posts on this thread

1) Is 16Mb/s the max AVC Blu-ray rate Architect 5.2 will build without the mux error?
2) Is there a maximum for MPEG 2 blu-ray? I've used 25mb/s successfully. Anything 28mb/s or above gives a warning during build about being above max rate for HD on DVD, guess that warning can be ignored if burning to BD disc? Is there a max for MPEG2 BD?

Use a CBR of 16MB/s for AVC (although I avoid AVC usually - too iffy). 16MB/s is the max.

Calculate your bitrate for Mpeg 2 using the only Blu-ray bitrate calculator on the net I am aware of. Again, I recommend CBR.

DVD-HQ : Bitrate & GOP calculator (http://dvd-hq.info/bitrate_calculator.php)

John

Shame AVC is so iffy with Architect. Even if 16mb/s works, we'd rather use a higher rate, max the quality and use up the disc space.

So there is no Architect limitations or bugs with MPEG2 then.

With 384kb/s ac3 the calculators state a max of 46.2mb/s. Thats asking for trouble IMO, depending on the encoder and the player. Perhaps 40mb/s CBR leaves a suitable margin. Have you done much around 40 mb/s and been successful?

Just noticed this

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-happens-vegas/472174-what-bit-rates-blu-ray-dvd-architect.html

Simon,

This is why I mentioned last night... if you are going to do AVC BluRay in DVDA, make the bit rate no higher than 16Mbps. If you are making an Mpeg2 Bluray, then keep the rate at or under 25Mbps.

You can take my advice and make it work.. or you can keep getting errors. I've been and done that. Doing it again tomorrow with a DNxHD .MOV file coming out of FCP.

maybe 40mb/s will be problematic and safer sticking to 25?

i create 720p BD's and use MPEG-2 format @ 25mbps... it's been great and is more than enough for quality. i use CBR not VBR as the text fades suck for me using VBR; the sharp edges crumble as it drops towards black whenever i use variable bit-rate no matter what sweetening i do to the font.

-

that said, i haven't made any 1080p BD's (2.4x larger screen-size than 720p) using MPEG-2 25mbps... my guess is it should be enough; but i'd wanna see before saying yes :)


anyway, think i'd be inclined to go AVC or VC-1 rather than MPEG-2 for 1080p; haven't researched this yet tho, and probably won't til i have to go that way (don't wanna figure something out only to have it go out-of-date before i get around to using it)

Hi

You can always give a bit of software I wrote a go, it makes it easy to use the very good and free x264 encoder.

There is a bug with DVD Architect where it will not support interlaced footage output by x264, so I tend to use MultiAVCHD, another free application that makes Blu-ray discs without re-encoding compatible footage.

Instructions and post is here http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-happens-vegas/503665-easy-way-create-blu-ray-avchd-using-x264-encoder.html, read further in the post to get a link to the latest version.

Regards

Phil

Looks an impressive piece of software Phil. I haven't tried it out yet. What BD authoring software have you tested or know accepts the final .mts files without transcoding? Or best demux software to pull out the elementary streams?

Hi

To pull out the elementary streams use TSMuxer (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/tsMuxeR), this is used internally by the program to mux them together, so will work fine to demux them.

The encoder the software uses is X264, this produces valid Blu-ray files that have been used on professional discs, but I know what you mean, authoring software seems to be very specific and often wants to interfere and re-encode, often had the same problem with DVD. The one authoring software I've used that seems pretty happy without re-encoding streams that are compliant is MultiAVCHD (http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/), this is free although isn't as user friendly as more commercial offerings but has made discs that have played perfectly in different Blu-ray players for me.

Best Regards

Phil