It won't be "XH" since the model numbers change along with the format (recall the that HDV successor to the XL2 was not designated XL3 but rather XL H1). I believe the XH designator is tied to the HDV line, which is going away. My own guess is that the model number will be something like "XF" (the F is for flash memory), perhaps XF A1 and XF G1, but nobody outside Canon knows for sure, least of all me.

Similarly for the likely-to-happen interchangeable lens version, which will probably keep the XL mount... it won't be "XL H" as that was the HDV format. I'm guessing "XL F" instead (the F is for flash memory), as in XL F1 or XL F1A (without SDI) and XL F1S (with SDI). Something along those lines.

They shouldn't bother with two models anymore, the sony NXCAM give you HDSDI for roughly $5000cad while the XHG1 is like $8000cad, it makes no sense. No way in the world these ports are worth a $3000 premium now, this isn't 2005.

I agree with you on that one Evan.

They shouldn't bother with two models anymore, the sony NXCAM give you HDSDI for roughly $5000cad while the XHG1 is like $8000cad, it makes no sense. No way in the world these ports are worth a $3000 premium now, this isn't 2005.

Actually I think they should still do the 2 models. The XHG1 type model should come down in price instead. NXCAM still has the AX2000 sibling which is in the 3's which is the price range of the XHA1.

I think Canon will probably offer two models since that's what Sony is doing (with the NX5 and AX2000). At the SuperMeet presentation last week in San Francisco, Joe Bogacz said that the new camera will have a very attractive price point. I agree with Evan that the days of a $3,000 premium for SDI are finished. I'll bet they'll try to hit the Sony prices.

When Canon releases their interchangeable lens model, I hope for a sharp viewfinder like Sony's EX3, that the XLR jacks are on the side and NOT on the back of the camera like on the XLH1. Nothing is worse than your jacket brushing the mic cable and ruining your audio. Also the camera must be approved by National Geographic and Discovery HD for 100% content before I'll consider buying. I plan on upgrading from my XLH1 and I hope Canon won't disappoint.

Leon Lorenz
Canadian Wildlife Productions: Grizzly Bears, Bighorm Sheep in Alberta & BC Rockies DVD Videos (http://www.wildlifevideos.ca)

I actually prefer the XLR jacks on the back rather than the side.

The main improvement would be to the viewfinder to help improve manual focussing.

And you'll also need a proper focus ring for that too!
Steve

I've got used to the MF rings on the 20X and 6X lenses, and the iris ring on the 6X is a nice addition; although I also got so used to using the aperture adjustment tab on the XL camera bodies that it doesn't now overly bother me when using a lens without an iris ring.

The wide ring on the black XL 16X MF lens does provide a nicer manual focus control, although full manual lenses do tend to provide a better 'feel' compared to the MF rings on fully electronic lenses. Similar could be said about the difference in MF between older Nikkors and later AF and 'G' Nikkors.

I do a lot of manual focussing, and almost 100% of tripod work is in MF, but there are times during run-n'-gun shooting that AF is a big help. Decent AF & IS, revolving viewfinder plus motorized zoom during filming are probably the four major items I'm going to miss more than anything if I ever finally go full 100% DSLR for my filming.

I'll be interested to see the price in UK for the "XL-F" interchangeable lens version. I've got a feeling that it will be even higher than the previous XL-H1s. It will also be very interesting to see if they bring out one or two completely new HD lenses with the body, or just a slightly updated 20X.

I saw the mock-up version at the DVexpo in London today. The lens is considerably bigger than the XHA1, as is the camera generally. Of course it was in a perspex box so i didn't get to see much, but there was an XHA1 near by and it definitely looked significantly larger. A rep said it had L quality glass too, but they had little other info on it. An Apple guy was going through the FCP workflow with some clips Canon had sent them, but unfortunately i only caught the tale end of it. So not much to report, but i'll have another look on Thursday if i make it down to Earl's court.

Don't know if anyone actually can answer this question but perhaps someone have a qualified guess:

Will this new codec need an upgrade of the NLE:s, for example Premiere Pro CS4 to CS5(?) or will any NLE supporting MPEG2 be able to handle this codec?


Regards,

/Bo

Probably it might(!) Don't honestly know, but at the SuperMeet where Canon did a presentation about this Codec, they made a big thing about how they were working with the NLE developers, showing video clips from people at Adobe and Avid, and then a guy from Apple came out, and they all basically said they were working with Canon...

So while they didn't say "it won't work with your existing NLE" the impression I got was that it required some changes from the NLE developers.

"Will this new codec need an upgrade of the NLE:s"

Don't quote me on this Bo, but i'm pretty sure the Apple guy i met said i'd have to upgrade to FCP 7 at a cost of around £125 - 150. Can't remember the details.

I may well go to the London show tomorrow and if i remember i'll ask about Premiere Pro, but the impression i got is that Final Cut 6 folks - like me - will need to upgrade. But as i said, don't quote me on that.

I think that MPEG2 4.2.2 @50Mb/s is the same codec as Sony's XDCam HD 4.2.2, so if your NLE can manage XDCam HD 4.2.2 I suppose that it should manage MPEG2 4.2.2…
I use a NanoFlash which gives me MPEG2 4.2.2 files and they are recognized by FCPro 7 as XDCamHD 4.2.2.

So, is Canon trying to clearly beat the performance of the EX3 with this model?

I think they will: the spec comes within that which broadcasters (BBC in particular) will accept for HD aqcuisition. The EX3 has to use the NanoFlash lash-up...

So, is Canon trying to clearly beat the performance of the EX3 with this model?
I don't think there's much doubt that not only are they TRYING to do it, but that they actually will - at least in terms of codec performance.

But the codec is only one part of what makes up the overall performance of any camera. What was seen as revolutionary about the EX cameras was the front end - 1920x1080 chips, 1/2", true manual lens etc. There's no use putting a first rate recording codec on a camera with a second rate front end, and currently there is no official information out yet about what the Canon front end will be.

The best current speculation is 1/3" chips - and if this does turn out to be so, then *OVERALL* I doubt it will match the EX3. Then again, the initial speculation about the new Canon was only for AVC-HD - maybe there'll be an equally pleasant surprise when the full details come out for the front end.

You can always put a better recorder on a camera with a fully approved front end, you can't put better chips on a camera with a fully approved codec.

Please, oh please, manual controls on the lens. And a great big clear display and eyecup. Broadcast accepted. And under $3,500.

Please don't wake me up, I'm enjoying this dream.

For those of us who aren't necessarily aiming for a BBC-approved, production-level camera, the idea of an under $4000 camera with 4:2:2 and 50 Mbps is still very very exciting - especially with Canon's track record for good glass and a high level of user control.

Pat

But it won't just be the BBC, Nat Geo and Discovery etc want 1/2" or larger sensors. There's no getting away from the fact that larger sensors bring a whole host of benefits including fewer diffraction issues, lower noise, higher sensitivity and greater dynamic range. Maybe Canon will still surprise us with a DSLR with 50Mb/s 4:2:2 and all the aliasing issues sorted out.

Expecting the camera to have 1/2" chips when it's probably going to be under $4,000 is asking for too much in my opinion. I mean it's like expecting the HMC40 to have chips bigger than 1/4" when it not only cost much less than cameras that that has bigger chips, it's also much smaller.

Adding something to an EX series camera in order to have a better codec costs a lot unless you got the money. The chips of the EX series cameras may be bigger and have more pixels than what we may see in this new Canon but I'd say neither is better than the other if you think about it.


I'm still hoping this thing gets 720 60p.

The chips of the EX series cameras may be bigger and have more pixels than what we may see in this new Canon but I'd say neither is better than the other if you think about it.
I disagree. Even if they were 1920x1080 (but 1/3"), that front end is likely to be noisier or less sensitive than an equivalent 1/2" front end. The aperture range will be more limited by diffraction, depth of field control will be worse, and for the same aperture, lens blemishes will be more noticeable. All of that is likely to be immediately noticeable on an uncompressed output from each camera.

I don't disagree that the 50Mbs codec is more desirable than 35Mbs, but I doubt it would be possible to spot the differences on first generation raw material in anything like the same way. The 50Mbs codec is good, no doubt about it, but if it was a choice between that, or 1/2" v 1/3" chips, I'd go for the bigger chips and 35Mbs.

Is the $4,000 an officially released figure, or speculation? At a recent show, all the Canon people would confirm was the codec and that it would be solid state. If it will be $4,000, then 1/2" don't seem very likely, but then I see it as being less an EX-killer, more a killer of most other 1/3" cameras on the market. It will certainly give it an edge over such as the JVC HM700, let alone the AVC-HD 1/3" cameras.

1/2 inch full raster chips are easily worth more than a 50mbps 4:2:2 codec alone. It's way harder to break the XDCAM 35 mbps 4:2:0 codec than you think, and until you do, it's hard to spot much difference even with 100 mbps 4:2:2. from my Nanoflash.

I would say for Canon stepping up needs even more importantly to fix the chromatic aberrations from the XH-A1/XL-H1 series, and not let that carry over into this new cam. Sony's EX have automatic lens aberration correction built in. It's reasonable to expect Canon to deliver a new best in class image, but you can't break the laws of physics for size. Unless they give it 1/2 inch chips it can't match the shallow depth of field, and likely can't match the low light either. In my opinion it doesn't need to. It can still deliver great images and value within it's market segment and pricepoint, but it won't be an EX killer.

Totally agree!
But for around the 4-5K price point it is a steel. I doubt it will be as good as the EX1 / 3. I wonder whether there are plans to offer at higher end cam with bigger chips? This definitely looks like the A1 replacement but what about a XLH1 replacement?

I'll be disappointed if it doesn't at least equal the EX cams. even at $4K. If not, I'm not sure many will trade in their older A1's.

I expect Canon will pull something out of their hat for this one, given their recent moves on the 5D, 7D, and now 2Ti. Who saw those coming as quickly as they did?

I wonder whether there are plans to offer at higher end cam with bigger chips? This definitely looks like the A1 replacement but what about a XLH1 replacement?

I don't believe it's in Canon's grand master plan to produce network/broadcast/eng cams that go far beyond the niche they've carved for event cams like XH-A1, XL-H1. Canon and Fuji have been making most of the lenses for the big network cams from Sony HDCAM/XDCAM/CineAlta and Panasonic Varicam. I think they are satisfied with that, and I don't believe they intend to compete head to head in the market for the cameras, basically because the others have complete lineups and many models, whereas Canon has not even one individual cam in that category. And then there's the matter of all the support equipment that goes along with supplying cams, editing decks, VTRs etc.

But even before getting into all of that, the new Canon cam would have a few more holes to fill before it could be mentioned in the same sentence as the Sony EX series. For example, nothing has been mentioned concerning the nature of the scanning. Will the chips be native progressive? That's important because currently, the Canon chips are scanned interlaced. The XH-A1/XL-H1 shoot really impressive interlaced footage as it is, but when the mode is switched to Canon's proprietary 24F, there is a vertical resolution drop of about 12% compared to its interlaced resolution. But interlaced scanning is already compromised by row summation to minimize interlacing artifacts, thus the vertical resolution for interlaced is about 25% lower when compared to native progressive scanning, even before you consider the additional 12% cut taken by 24F. The bottom line on that, is when comparing Canon 24F to Sony EX 24P, the vertical resolution is currently about 575 lines versus 1000 lines. That's a lot to make up in one leap.

Also, in putting full raster 1920 horizontal photosites versus 1440 in the same 1/3 inch chip, it's going to be a struggle to improve much on the XH-A1/XH-L1's low light performance, which lags the EX by a good margin, again owing to the physics of more light gathering area for the EX.

And what about overcranking, slow motion? Hasn't been mentioned. From what's been announced, it just seems an impossible stretch that in one swoop this potentially great cam from Canon will be a game changer that's going to take all the sales from the EX, especially when you consider the EX line is essentially one link in an unbroken path all the way to the F23/35. Canon doesn't even have this one cam yet. But as speculated, it would appear to compare more or less to the Panasonic HPX300, which is a solid state full raster cam with 1/3 inch chips, which although produces sharply resolved images, hasn't killed the EX1 either for the same reasons, it loses on low light and depth of field to name a few.

Of course it has something to offer, newly packaged values, that will really count for the targeted niche, where it may really excell in some uses.

I'll be disappointed if it doesn't at least equal the EX cams. even at $4K. If not, I'm not sure many will trade in their older A1's.

I expect Canon will pull something out of their hat for this one, given their recent moves on the 5D, 7D, and now 2Ti. Who saw those coming as quickly as they did?

Solid state workflow will be a big reason why A1/H1 owners will upgrade, and so is the 50 mbps 4:2:2 codec that will be much better for grading and color correction work than HDV. I also have a hunch that Canon will use low cost flash memory, possibly putting pressure on Sony and Panasonic. Sony just recently announced firmware upgrades to the EX series that specifically enable alternative memory types to the up until now, expensive SXS express cards.

Wow i can't wait until NAB, simply to see what Canon does bring out. Ok so we know they are bringing out a new cam with the new codec, but that's all we know. There is so much speculation about this/these new cameras from Canon in this thread, but at the end of the day, until we see an official announcement from Canon showing their hand with this, then speculation is all this will be. If all Canon come up with is a solid state version of the XH A1 using the new codec, i think that will be a great camera, however, if they do actually pull something out of the bag with all those things & a bigger sensor, then regardless of whether it's an EX "killer" or not, i think we will all benefit from it.
Bryce

Some aspects are known factors and not speculation, such as the chip size (1/3rd inch). There are those who will say that the 1/3rd inch sensor size prohibits it from being a direct competitor to the XDCAM EX series. Instead it looks like it's being positioned against NXCAM and AVCCAM.

I just don't think one is completely better than the other and that's assuming this Canon gets a good price and progressive chips. Without any type of support, the EX1 should get tiring after after hours of usage. I know from experience that even the Z1u can get tiring after a while.

And CCDs will also set it apart from the EXs, and make it favourable to some shooters even with 1/3" chips.
Steve

That's part of the reason why I don't consider the chips on either camera being better than the other and that's assuming Canon uses progressive chips. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

And CCDs will also set it apart from the EXs, and make it favourable to some shooters even with 1/3" chips.
Maybe - assuming they are CCD. Canon haven't confirmed that. (AFAIK)

To others, CMOS may be the better choice - more sensitive (quite apart from 1/3 v 1/2"), and they seem to have more latitude.

My own view is that CMOS chips seem to show their strengths on most shots (especially if it's the only way to get full res chips), whereas CCDs only show their strengths on occasional shots, such as flashguns.

When will this camera(s) be officially announced Canon, at NAB?

My own view is that CMOS chips seem to show their strengths on most shots (especially if it's the only way to get full res chips), whereas CCDs only show their strengths on occasional shots, such as flashguns.

Weird then that the high end is dominated by CCDs then.
I thought Chris had got confirmation that it was CCD?
Steve

Weird then that the high end is dominated by CCDs then.
Red?

And I think it may be more accurate to say "has been dominated by CCDs". Because of the samaller numbers being sold versus consumer cameras, new technologies often become prevalent in the cheaper, higher volume markets first. The top end has more inertia. The PMW350 may be a sign of where the higher end is going.
I thought Chris had got confirmation that it was CCD?

Chris?

The reps I spoke to didn't confirm that to me (and yes, I did ask), they didn't confirm or deny ANYTHING except that it would be 50Mbs 422 MPEG2, and it would be solid state.

the question is: when they will announce anything official about this camera? it will be released until when?

No one knows when they will officially announce their new camera. Personally I'm not holding my breath for NAB, I hate waiting with anticipation only to be disappointed.

CCD *not* confirmed. Expect it to be announced and shown at NAB.

I see that the news section only has seven threads with comments in March, and two are locked. The weeks before NAB are like a video news black hole.

We should definitely know more about the camera at NAB. And, come April, the news section should bounce back to life. :)

tick . . tock . . tick . .tock . . .

It all sounds rather yummy indeed; saw the mock-up at BVE London Earls Court last month and visited my fav London store 2 days ago. The sales guy there couldn't have had his arm twisted at all! - Soooo tight lipped, any tighter and his chin would have touched his brow!

tick . . tock . . tick . .tock . . .

Grazie

Exciting.
To me, the 2 most important things they have to work out to make this worthwhile is a manual focus ring and a "proper" viewfinder.
Those 2 factors where what made me sell my XL-H1 the day the EX-3 came out.
The H1 produced stunning pictures, specially the winter action sports I shot with it were great, but when the light level were low I had no way of controlling focus and I shoot manual 99% of the time.

The bottom line is the EX-3 made me jump ship after years with Canon, but i doubt the new Canon would make me jump back. They just took too long.

I hope they come out with something that might have me consider the camera though, nothing like a bit of competition.

They just took too long. - Yes.


I hope they come out with something that might have me consider the camera though, nothing like a bit of competition. - Yes again.

Grazie

Joachim, I mentioned exactly those 2 things myself, very very important. The VF on the EX3, for a small camera is really really good, same with the manual focus and iris.
Let's keep our fingers crossed!
Steve

Steve, you are certainly right about the EX-3 viewfinder.
It´s interesting to see how Sony now has a high-end color viewfinder for the XDCAM HD 700 camera. It is truly great and I find it´s a pain to go back to B/W viewfinders.

I´m sure canon comes out with something good, they certainly knows how to make great glass.

But as said before I think they lost a few customers waiting this long to come out with a solid state camera.

I think they lost a few customers waiting this long to come out with a solid state camera.
hey, it's never too late, just make sensor 2/3", or better yet APS-C - I'll switch just like that :)

Remember, one person's perfect camera is another's something to complain about. It will be a really good camera with a great codec and, while it migh not be perfect to everyone, it will be another great tool at our disposal. I look forward to seeing it at NAB.......if its there!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Well I understand this camera maybe of no interest to some, but I can't wait to sell my current XHA1 for it. To be able to record solid state without the need to transcode, and finally have a lens that will focus while zooming and have crisp LCD image. I'm wide awake and waiting in line.

And here we are seeing what Jim said just in bright lights using 0DB gain!

I too am awaiting what this camera will be (the XL version of it).