Two questions:

How many of you actually wanted to buy a 5D2 but went with the 7D because of the lack of 24p and 60p on the 5D2 (even despite the fact the 5D2 is supposedly getting an eventual update)?

Of those folks, now that you have a 7D, how many of you plan on ditching it and getting a 5D2 once the new firmware comes out?

(Note: I know some us will go for both bodies, so that complicates things a bit, but mention that if that's your scenario...)

I choosed the 7D because of the 60p over the 5D
and over T1i because of the external mic plug.

I'm mostly filming car race & drag racing.

No plan to change now.

I bought the 7D because I liked the price better.

I already had a 5D and 5d mkII, bought the 7D mainly for the extra reach of the 1.6 crop.

I stuck with the 5D2, which I bought in December 2008. The lack of fast wide primes for the 7D, and my faith that Canon would deliver 24p, led me to stick with it.

Pal land here, had no choice. happy now though. It was a painful wait watching all that lovely 5dmk2 footage and not being able to use it.

The price and frame rates were the deciding factor for me. I bought it as an experiment and as a back up camera. Now I can't put the thing down -

Oh, and the nice HD HDMI out when recording.

I bought the 7D because:
- 24p/29.97p now
- I could get it "same as cash" for 6 months @ BestBuy (and I didn't have enough credit line to get the 5D2)
- some better video-centric features
- lovely HD HDMI output for studio monitoring

After shooting a bunch of video with it, I know now I'd also like a 5D2 body for the wide stuff. Because wide & fast glass is expen$ive (nod to the 5D2) and long and fast glass is expen$ive (nod to the 7D). And full-frame? Who doesn't want some of that?

I shot some corporate interview stuff with my 7D today, using my old XH-A1 as my second-cam... and I really can't see using that old cam anymore. Cutting to the 7D footage is just so much better. My A1 is just an over-priced field recorder for me now... and all of the zebras, XLR inputs, form-factor benefits, ergonomics ... you name it, just don't make up for that glorious super-35mm image. I'll put up with the hassles to get it.

Besides, it makes my clients feel like they're in a Hollywood feature when I slap that slate in their face!

Hope this helps,
Brian Brown
BrownCow Productions

7D here, just bought a few days ago. The only reason I wanted the 5Dmk2 was the full frame DOF (not sure what you mean Brian but 7D isn't super35, it's APS-C which is a good deal smaller) but a 7D with a fast lens isn't shabby either. Some people would complain about sharpness of wide-open lenses, but 1920x1080 recording on a 18mp sensor skips so many lines that the sharpness of a photo lens for video becomes a moot point.

7D also has fantastic low light performance--beats RED even!

Of course it also depends on your lens choice--I have a tamron 17-50 f/2.8 with IS, about $650. Very fast, very pretty image. Fast lenses for 5D are the L series, which are $1k+ ($$$)

A side note about 24p vs. 30p: a friend of mine shot a spec commercial for Nike on RED, and also on Canon 5D (this was before 7D). The guys at Nike actually preferred the 5D 30p footage!

The APS-C chip is very close to Academy 4-perf, but smaller than Super 35. The 5DMKII is closer to 65mm film, I believe. I went with the 7D because of that chip size, 24p and slomo. I don't want any shallower depth of field than what I get with the 7D. Sometimes I have to work a bit to get it deeper when I need to. If I were primarily a still photographer who does some video, then I would have got the 5D, but I'm a video guy who does some stills and for me the 7D works for that. The bigger chip, of course, has a bit better resolution, a bit better low light performance, and as mentioned it's easier to get wide angle lenses. However, lenses like that Tokina 11-16 are good, sharp, reasonably fast at f2.8 and affordable.

I haven't had my XH A1 out of its bag since I took delivery of the 7D the first part of October. Originally I bought the 7D because it was time to upgrade my still camera (from a 20D) and I thought the video capability would be nice to have as backup, especially for out of town trips where a problem with the XH A1 would be disastrous. However, after initial testing, the XH A1 became the backup camera. On local shoots I don't even take the XH A1 with me anymore, though it goes on out of town shoots and stays in its bag. I have some Steadicam work coming up soon and haven't done that since getting the 7D. I may use the XH A1 for that because of the higher depth of field, which is good for Steadicam shooting.

So, my real question is quite simply this:

Who here would have rather had bought a 5D2 but bought a 7D instead because of the framerates, and now that you have the 7D, are plenty happy and have no intent to upgrading to a 5D2 once the firmware comes out.

What I'm trying to get at (Canon are you listening?), is whether Canon is losing money because of the drawn out wait for the firmware. I personally know two people in this camp, and I was curious how many of you might also be in that camp (e.g., you would have happily paid $1000+ more for the 5D2 if it had the framerates, but since it didn't you went with the 7D, pocketed the extra, and are perfectly content now and won't be upgrading when the firmware comes out)?

According to this:
http://blog.tylerginter.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sensor-size-71.png

Super-35mm (1.85): 24 mm x 12.98mm
4-perf. (1.85): 20.96mm x 11.33mm

Compared to:
7D sensor: 22.3mm × 14.9mm
5D2 sensor: 36mm x 24mm

At any rate, compared to my previous 1/3" sensor world... the 7D is a whole 'nuther world, indeed.

Bill, let's not forget that Canon sells these cams to primarily STILLS shooters. Probably by a factor of 10,000:1. So the small subset of us that want to use 'em primarily to shoot video is not a very large contingent for them to worry about losing $1,000/body.

The 1DMkIV is a much bigger fish for them to sell to pros. And the choice of a pro-sumer full-frame or crop body on the way down to the Rebel series makes for a nice vertical offering from them.

So "are they listening?" Probably not, compared the the masses of stills shooters out there. Why would they?

I have yet to buy my 7D, but have chosen it over the 5DmkII mainly for the lower price and slo-mo options. With that extra $1K, I can get another really nice lens. A common practice among 7D owners.

How cheap would the 7D be if many of the still photography features were stripped down/completely removed, while maintaining the same video capabilities? What if those still features were REPLACED with additional video capabilities (i.e. built-in audio monitoring/mixing, zebras, scopes, longer clip limit than 12 min., etc.) but still kept it simple? how much would that camera cost? Interchangeable lenses on video isn't new, but the ability to use the wide gamut of lenses on such a small and stripped-down unit is, and another quality that attracted me to the 7D (versus the bigger cameras like the EX1 and so forth).

Give us a small, simple, but CAPABLE camera that shoots the 35mm look without an adapter, and if it shoots stills too, that's cool. Just don't raise the price for the stills stuff!

To clarify...the size of the 7D, the simplicity of what it does, and the amazing moving images it captures are what we love about it, right? All we want are a few more small features. If Canon could keep the price down by taking away some of the still shooting aspects, making it a "video camera that takes nice stills" (as somebody on the forum so eloquently put it), that's a camera I'd be interested in.

Bill, I think it's a bit inaccurate to talk about the 5DMKII or the 1DMKIV as "upgrades" to the 7D. Each one is a different beast. If you're a photojournalist, National Geographic photographer, or military photographer shooting in the sandstorms in Afghanistan, then the 1DMKIV is the best tool for the job--excellent in low light, and as close to airtight as any camera made. For still photography and 30p video the 5DMKII is excellent. Some cinematographers are using it and going through the big hassle of 24p conversion just for that extra resolution--it's a great look. The 7D hits another market--filmmakers who want the latitude and depth of field control.

There are some people out there who have all three cameras and use each one when it's the best for what they're doing. I think these hybrids are very much like the RED, in that each camera is a "brain." You buy the one you prefer for what you're doing, and the nice thing is that if you decide you need a different "brain," that's all you have to buy--all your lenses, rods support system, mattebox, sound gear, etc., will work on any of the cameras (assuming you're using "full frame" lenses).

I know quite a number of filmmakers around here who are now using the 7D for the reasons I mentioned in the earlier post--good control of DOF without being ruled by it, 24p capability, and 60fps slomo capability. Nobody seems to talk about price as that big a factor, because once they get the necessary lenses and all, they've spent more than what an XH A1 cost a couple of years ago. I've already doubled the price of my camera and don't even have a follow focus system yet (which I'm coming to believe is essential if you use any of the DSLR zooms because of the short focus throw they all have--my ancient Nikkor lenses are much better in that regard).

By the way, here's the latest film being made with a 7D (only half a million dollar budget, but sounds pretty good):
http://www.reelchicago.com/story.cfm?storyID=2683

If Canon removed photography features, the 7D would probably lose sales volume and the price could actually go up.

Always keep in mind that manufacturing cost and sales price don't always agree. My favorite example is when touch-tone phones first came into the market. Touch-tone switches were cheaper than mechanical dial-click switches. Yet, phone companies charges customers an extra dollar per month for touch-tone support. Crafty, eh? :)

I'd certainly like to have a 5D Mark II, but I went with the 7D due to cost, the frame rate options, and the slightly better UI (a button!) I was also thinking that a 5D Mark III might come sooner rather than later, but now I'm not so sure.

I bought the 7D because I like to do art type shorts and things look incredible if you don't have too much motion. Once things start moving, focus for me is very difficult on this camera. Taking "snippets" of events, nature, family life, is incredible. I don't want shallower DOF. Throw in the fact that its a good still camera, I'm very happy with the 7D.

Still want a good event camera, and may go with one of the new small camcorders by Sony or Canon.

I have both, although I use them more for photography than video. The 5D Mk. II is for wide-angle work and the 7D for telephoto. I have fallen head over heels for the 1D Mk. IV, it's in an entirely different class altogether. I can't justify buying one yet, but I'm thinking hard about it.

What I'm trying to get at (Canon are you listening?), is whether Canon is losing money because of the drawn out wait for the firmware. I personally know two people in this camp, and I was curious how many of you might also be in that camp (e.g., you would have happily paid $1000+ more for the 5D2 if it had the framerates...No, they're probably not losing money if people buy the 7D instead of the 5D Mk. II -- we don't know what the profit margins are on these cameras, and as Nigel Barker points out (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/466093-canon-announces-free-24p-25p-update-eos-5d-mk-ii-11.html#post1479554), it's quite possible that the actual profit per unit is the same no matter which model or price point. Regardless, they are not competing with themselves. They will be happy to sell a 7D or a 5D Mk. II to you, or anything else they make.

Nor would it matter if you knew twenty people or one hundred in that camp, the simple fact is that these cameras are first and foremost *still photo* cameras and their primary market that buys the 5D Mk. II are photographers who might never use the video capabilities of the camera. You have to look at the big picture: the number of still photographers buying this camera exponentially dwarfs the number of videographers buying this camera, to a very large degree.

How cheap would the 7D be if many of the still photography features were stripped down/completely removed...If you remove the still photography features from the 7D, then you wouldn't have a camera anymore.

The 7D, like all other D-SLRs in the Canon EOS product line, is first and foremost a still photography camera. It happens to have the ability to record HD video, but that's almost superfluous relative to the design and feature set of the 7D and other D-SLR cameras.

There are three primary physical features of any Canon EOS camera such as the 7D: the still photo EF lens mount, the mirror (which is what makes it a single-lens reflex camera in the first place), and the pentaprism above the mirror, which houses the viewfinder. None of those three things are required or desired on a video camera, and yet if you take them away from the 7D then you're left without a camera at all.

I think what you might be driving at, rather than taking away still photo features from a still photo camera, is perhaps an entirely new camera dedicated solely to video which is built around this particular image sensor. Such a thing would not have an EF lens mount, a mirror or a pentaprism, since it's not a photography camera. Therefore it wouldn't look anything like a 7D or any other D-SLR for that matter.

The trouble with making this kind of camcorder -- one that uses such a large sensor -- is providing a proper video lens and AF system that would make it suitable for videography. Unfortunately this won't happen anytime soon. I've explained the reasons why in much greater detail in my article here (http://www.dvinfo.net/features/canon-reveals-their-next-pro-video-cam.html#aps-c). Hope this helps,

My "upgrade to the 5D2" comment was a bad choice of words. Just for the record, I am very deep into the "primarily a stills photographer" camp, and I'm well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of Canon's entire lineup on that front. So, I should state that I have nothing against the 7D whatsoever, it's an awesome camera no doubt, and if I were to ever replace my 30D body, I would without a doubt replace it with a 7D. That said, I love my 5D2, and FF is my preference 99% of the time given what I'm into. What I was trying to convey, was for those who wanted a 5D2 to begin with (the folks who didn't want a 7D), of those folks who went for the 7D because of the framerates. I was coming from the perspective of folks who prefer the 5D2 but for the framerates, that's why I said upgrade, what I really meant was would they ditch the 7D and go back toward their primary preference or not once the firmware came out.

And that's a very good point on the profit vs. revenue comment. I still think this is a very undesirable situation for Canon, it's causing a lot of animosity and frustration, most of which is directly brought on by them because of the announcement. They wanted their cake and to eat it too (it will have the framerates, some day), they could have just as easily not announced and/or not made the change. And I would actually be fine with that, I will keep my 5D2 no matter what, but at least then folks could make decisions accordingly just like we do with all products like this. But the six month window with loads of uncertainty just feels lame in my book. They handled it wrong in my opinion.

the number of still photographers buying this camera exponentially dwarfs the number of videographers buying this camera, to a very large degree.

i think this could be a little hard to measure or comment on from now on.. i was shooting a fashion show last week (with the 7d), i spoke with 3 photographers there who had 7ds who were all speaking very enthousiastically about their cameras video function, i would guess a factor in their purchase decision

Then i was shooting at a conference during the week (with the 7d) and 2 attendees came up to me telling me they'd bought the 7d too and were really excited about the video, i would guess from a more casual/consumer viewpoint.

Then last night i was at a dinner at friends and met someone working for an airline, who just coordinated a video with a filmmaker and was telling me how amazed that this guy shot with a DSLR (she thinks a 7d) and produced such beautiful images from it.

Im really suprised how quick this thing is spreading! It seems like theres many people, even with no connection to video making or photography are already aware of the phenomenon, we'd need some kind of official survey from Canon to actually know whos buying it for what reason.

(correct me if im wrong Chris or if anyone knows of such surveys or statistics would be interesting to hear..)

i know if i was responsible for either sales or product development for canon i'd be much more interested in knowing what percent of the camera/video aspect triggered the purchase decision than putting customers in a box of 'photographer' or 'videographer'. In my case it was about 95% / 5% video/photo but it seems for many others its more like 50/50 or 60/40.

...the six month window with loads of uncertainty just feels lame in my book. They handled it wrong in my opinion.I agree with you wholeheartedly. The six month window is a bit bewildering and totally out of character for their typical corporate policy, which is generally to release new product within 60 to 90 days of announcement (sometimes even shorter). In my opinion they should have sat on it until it's ready, and if it's ready now, what's the point of waiting for some industry "event" such as NAB or whatever. Just get it out there.

(correct me if im wrong Chris or if anyone knows of such surveys or statistics would be interesting to hear..)I have no hard data to back up anything I've said here. I think we're all just speaking honestly but speculatively from our own experiences. The problem with that is, we all have different experiences!

Manus makes a great point. Most might buy the Canon for stills, but video can still be a big selling point. A local friend of mine is a professional photographer who is now expanding his business from still portraits to include video portraits. I don't think he would have chosen to buy a video camera, but by using his existing camera and lenses, it's really attractive.

When a stills shooter is shopping for their next camera, I'd guess that the video feature an important check box. And a little digging into reviews will unearth the comments from video shooters. Good reviews from us 0.1% of video purists might have a big impact on the 90% of people who read lots of reviews before they buy.

I think we're all just speaking honestly but speculatively from our own experiences. The problem with that is, we all have different experiences!

thats definitely true.. lets just hope canon (and others) keep listening to us in the minority to keep bringing out great new tools (although i'm more than happy with my 7d!)

There could be many hidden reasons why they are holding back. One of many possibilities is that Canon has found a minor problem with the free firmware upgrade for the 5D and are at this moment reworking & proof testing prior to the new software release.

I am sitting on my hands at the moment, waiting for this year's updated full-frame hybrids from Nikon and Canon before emptying my bank balance. The 7D has ticked some positives for all of us in Pal-land, and I'm sure that the full-frame bodies from Canon & Nikon will soon follow suit.

"When?" is the question on most of our lips. Grumblings in the background are that Nikon is also holding back their intended release of the D700 & D3X upgrades to hybrid for later in the year.

I've just sold a tonne of pro stills gear and want to refill that void with hybrids...but neither Nikon or Canon are ticking all of my boxes; time is fast running out and I need to make a decision soon before the next major expedition.

And now the upgraded Canon XL-H1s is possibly on the horizon....so many decisions yet to make!

So many different options this year, and making the correct choices are slightly more difficult...but this also makes it all quite interesting and exciting... :)

I also bought my 7D for 95% video and 5% photo.

The reasons, 1080 24p.

I also use my XH-A1 as a second camera now.

Maybe wil be buying a 5D with the updated firmware or Scarlet if it ever comes out.

Manuel,

I'd love to see what you are turning out with the 7D and how you like working with it versus the A1 and your recent work using Red.

Hello Roger nice to talk to you!, I still own you the acueduct video, I'll soon upload it to vimeo. You can see some of my stuff here: Manuel Hernandez-Stumpfhauser on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/user2590027)

I like a lot the DOF of the 7D but I'm still not shure if it has greater image quality than the A1. I'm still using the A1 for wide open shots, fast whip shots and chroma keying.

I think that being careful we can still mix both cameras and with color grading they can coexist together.

The red obviously has better dynamic range, resolution and DOF than the 7D but it is very expensive to work with it here in Mexico. You have to hire a big and expensive crew and many local clients don't understand why they have to pay that much. And in addition, I still have to rent it, because for me it is very expensive to buy.

I just finished shooting with the 7D my version of the Canon's and Vincent Laforet contest "The story beyond the still". I think some images turned out quite spectacular and would never have achieved them with the A1.

I'll start editing it tonight and hopefully upload it next week to the contest page. vimeo.com/groups/beyondthestill

Regards,
Manuel

I think what you might be driving at, rather than taking away still photo features from a still photo camera, is perhaps an entirely new camera dedicated solely to video which is built around this particular image sensor.


I guess I could have been a lot clearer about things... I figure video people are buying teh 7D for similar reasons (the lens choices, the beautiful DOF, the price, the size, etc.) so why not a video camera based around these specific features, that uses a full-frame sensor (5DMkII) or even a crop sensor like the 7D, that has the capability of mounting the wide array of lenses used in the DSLR photography world (eliminating the need to ever have to purchase a lens adapter kit again). I know the RED Scarlet is going to be something similar, and will no doubt be an awesome video camera once it's released. I am also aware of all the issues that surround the DSLR sensors and the necessary functions of a good video camera (i.e. aperture and zooming, rolling shutter, etc.). It's all about dreaming up stuff that is way too hard to build and way too easy to use. Oh well...

theres some great answers to some of those questions from Chris here:

Canon Reveals Their Next Pro Video Cam at DVInfo.net (http://www.dvinfo.net/features/canon-reveals-their-next-pro-video-cam.html)

Manuel,

IMO the 7D looks significanly better if you can avoid the aliasing and if you nail the focus. With a lot of light, the A1 is still quite impressive if you don't require shallow DOF. I'm shooting a stage performance the next two nights without having seen the rehearsals and I'll be using 3 A1's. Can't risk the 7D on live content and don't want to mix the footage since it will be low light and the A1 and 7D will look very different in this environment. With a little noise reduction the A1's will do fine.

I look forward to the Aqueduct footage.

Now that this is kinda topical... I bought a 7d because of the framerates and because i dont need tighter than super35 for DOF.

Now that the 550d is announced? I'll be selling the 7d and buying two of those.

heh. For the price of a 5d you could have what, 4 550d? Just give one to everybody on set and have total coverage.

heh.