Hi. I am a newb at this and need help. I downloaded a trial version of Neo Scene and converted a clip to avi (24p). I also did the same using ZoomBrowser but converted it to mov (h.264). I can't say I see any difference but my experience is very limited. Would you recommend Neo Scene over ZB? Or should I just wait for the 24p firmware fix to come out and not spending $100 on Neo Scene? Thanks

Have you tried each format on your editing program? I find that .mov files are not editor friendly (Vegas 9). Even with a powerful computer, they will not preview smoothly, especially as the project size grows. The AVI files work great. I convert my AVCHD (HMC150) and .MOV (7D) files to AVI for editing. I save the original files because they take up less space than the converted files.

I use Neo Scene which works well, especially when converting a folder full of files. I also found a free converter Squared 5 - MPEG Streamclip video converter for Mac and Windows (http://www.squared5.com/) which appears to do the same. I just installed it last night so I have limited experience, but it seems to work fine.

Good Luck,

Doug

The reason I downloaded Neo Scene is because I've read great reviews about it. I can tell you this much, converting to avi in ZB sucks. The quality is very poor. I do have Vegas 9 but I did not try editing it in there yet. Will try when I get home

I agree, NeoScene is very easy to convert files.
Throw 5 minutes of .MOV on the timeline in Vegas and you will see what I mean. At some point (not much past 5 mins) I totally lose the ability to preview and Vegas becomes ineffective.
The link I provided to the other converter enables you to convert to one of several formats.

Good Luck

The benefits of Neoscene involve lessening the load in you processing and playback routines, and its near lossless editing capabilities. This means you can render a clip to the Cineform codec, then add it to another bunch of clips in a new Vegas time line, and know the quality from that render will still hold up to the original. Using the native files, or other formats that are intended as capture formats is a drain on processing power and will result in more loss in successive renders.

Thanks for the explanation. I am a photographer but decided to explore the video capabilities of the camera. So everything related to video is new to me. So from what I understand I will still need Neoscene even when Canon comes out with 24p firmware fix?

There are a lot of different tactics used to edit the output from these camera. Some are editing the native stuff, others converting to various codecs. Cineform has been modified to handle quirks in the 5D footage, normalizing the footage to achieve maximum editing benefits. It correct actual frame rate from 30 frames to 29.97 frames per second, and readjust where blacks and white fall, extending latitude- due to something peculiar Canon had done in the codec.

I am not saying you have to use it, I just think it is the best thing going to get maximum results out of the camera. The other nice thing is the Cineform is continuously updating NeoScene, and when the firmware for the 5D finally comes out, I am sure if they don't work with that footage right away, they will be on top of it quickly.

Thanks again for the explanation. By the way what I've noticed is that after conversion some darker areas of the clip looked lighter. And that was pleasing because those areas were really dark and some details were lost. Is Neoscene responsible for that too?

Yes. 5D2 footage has these flaws, or, um, "characteristics":

* It shoots 0-255. Video is generally 16-235. 0-255 is good because you get more levels, but it needs to be accounted for.

* The header says 1088 lines, rather than 1080.

* It's 30p, rather than 29.97p

* If you conform to 29.97p, the audio will go out of sync.

* The native files have to be decoded by *something*. That something is usually Quicktime which messes up the gamma. (To check, do a full resolution capture and look at the histogram. If there are gaps and bumps, that means the gamma got screwed up in 8-bit world, which is really bad for color correction.)

* It's hard to decode by editing systems

So, aside from having the wrong speed, resolution, bit range, and gamma, and being hard to edit with out-of sync audio, it's perfect. ;)

In Vegas, you can fix all of these things manually. That includes opening every clip in Quicktime and exporting to M4V format. The rewrap is fast, but it's click-intensive for the user.

Or you can run the content through NeoScene. It fixes every single problem listed above. Point it at a folder, click "Start", enjoy a cup of coffee, and edit away.

Back in December 2008 there were a lot of man-hours spent with people trying to figure out how to edit this stuff. When NeoScene became available for the 5D2, there was a collective sigh of relief!

Now that was really convincing :) Thanks everybody for your help

Jon:

Great technical explanation of all the benefits... I'm gonna cut and paste your explanation for this question in the future-- with attributes to you of course !

Thanks Ilya and Chris.

Over the past year, I had kinda forgotten about all the detailed problems with the raw files. As I was writing, I had a series of "oh yeahs". By the time I got them all together, I remembered why NeoScene was one of the easiest $100 I ever spent. It's not just about editing speed.

Just to point out that Neoscene as an editing CODEC is only necessary on Windows PCs. If you are using a Mac then importing the files into iMovie (which ships for free on every Mac) will convert to AIC. If you edit in Final Cut Pro then convert to ProRes (supplied with FCP) using MPEG Streamclip before editing.

I had a chance to play a bit with Neo scene today and noticed that after converting to 24p the quality dropped down considerably. When the camera was steady then it was ok but when panning I saw unpleasant distortions. Not sure what they are called. I did not see the same issue when playing raw files in ZoomBrowser. It was not as bad as when I did not convert to 24p (Maintain source fram format option) but still was visible. What is that and is there a way to minimize it?

Ilya:

Cineform is indicating that you shouldn't use Cineform Neoscene to convert 30p footage to 24p. It is an option, but it it can have some nasty results.

In Vegas, I can slow down playback to 24 fps, and you get clean 24p, but motions is also slowed down. Other wise, when a conversion occurs, the likely scenario is that to go to 24p by conversion, the coverting process has to drop 1 out of every 5 frames. In fast motion you will get obvious issues. In static scenes could be fine.

There are some programs that rebuild frames, using extrapolation, but even those, I suspect will have errors. Again, shooting native 24p is the true answer, and that is coming soon from Canon, we hope.

Yes, that's what I figured. I also read a few threads abouth these jitters/judders whatever people call them. Is that a rolling shutter issue?

The first thing I notice about this camera is hand holding is a lot more difficult because of what it is... a flat camera. Any movement up or down is right at the the film axis, if you are grippoing the camera like a 35mm shooter would. Its similar with the short HV20 I also have. Now bolt it on a shoulder brace, and you cut that down quickly. I think that jitter is primarily what we are seeing, and when you mount it, you will see a lot of that disappear.

Yes, but actually I do not have any issues with raw files when I view then in ZoomBrowser. Not that I am seeing any, anyway. But they become visible after conversion even if I set Neoscene to keep the same frame rate setting during the conversion. I do see them, however, during actual filming on the camera's LCD. I will do some mroe testing during this week and will update. Thanks

Hi ! i´m a newby into dslr video, but fast learner : )
Jon is possible if you can explain me a bit more about:

* It shoots 0-255. Video is generally 16-235. 0-255 is good because you get more levels, but it needs to be accounted for.

* The header says 1088 lines, rather than 1080.

0-255 and 16-235 are the gamma levels or it has to do with the ccd performance? And the 1088 lines is because the full frame?

thank´s!

Hi Elena,

Regarding 0-255 and 16-235... 8-bits allows 256 levels of information (0-255). For computer graphics and photos, the range of the image is 0-255. In the video world, they left some room for the (originally analog) signal to go below black and above white. They set black at 16 and white at 235 to allow this extra headroom.

Most video editing systems work in the 16-235 range, but this is only 220 shades of gray. Canon DvSLRs provide 256 shades of gray, and it's nice to have those extra levels. The only challenge is that we need to squeeze the range to fit in the 16-235 space to give the proper levels in our editing systems. Cineform does this automatically. It's a 10-bit codec, so all 256 levels of gray remain unique.

I've heard that Premiere clips video at 16 and 235. If so, it could ruin the blacks and whites. Vegas does not clip, but one needs to manually convert from "Computer RGB" to "Studio RGB" in order to get the proper levels.

Regarding "1088", that is an error. It should be "1080". Maybe they use 1088 because it's divisible by 16. In Vegas it can add a black line at the bottom of the video if not corrected. Cineform corrects the error in its output.

Have you tried each format on your editing program? I find that .mov files are not editor friendly (Vegas 9). Even with a powerful computer, they will not preview smoothly, especially as the project size grows. The AVI files work great. I convert my AVCHD (HMC150) and .MOV (7D) files to AVI for editing. I save the original files because they take up less space than the converted files.

I use Neo Scene which works well, especially when converting a folder full of files. I also found a free converter Squared 5 - MPEG Streamclip video converter for Mac and Windows (http://www.squared5.com/) which appears to do the same. I just installed it last night so I have limited experience, but it seems to work fine.

Good Luck,

Doug

Doug,

So what were your thoughts on Squared5 MPEG Streamclip with your 7D files?

Thanks,
Roy