Do most people keep the Tiffen T1 filter on all the time?

I have an EX3. I live in Australia which means hot golden sunny afternoons.
I have the Schneider 486 + the T1
At present I try and shoot everything with no filter (only UV filter) and would only use the 486 if I thought I was going to have a problem

I find the yellow tinge (after whitebalancing) of the T1 quite unattractive against having no filter, especially with Skin tones.
Using no filter gives a subtle reddish depth to faces.

Whether of course this noticeable when the final product is for Web or DVD is another question.

Personally I need to get everything as right as possible in the camera.
I colour correct the footage in Final Cut - and this is basically adjusting the whitebalance, improving skintones and brightness.

The T1 changes the colour quite a bit in the camera. I don't really have the skills to undo that in Final Cut.
Does anybody have good Picture Profile settings to fix up the picture in the camera?
Of course I would like to have true blacks - but not at the expense of loosing the lovely clear picture that the camera has by itself

Do you not white balance with the filter in place to get around the problem?

Yes but it still looks sort of murky to what it was before without the filter

I use a UV filter on my EX3 and EX1R all the time except when using the mattebox with filters.

I have never had a far red problem. I know I am lucky, I am not saying the problem does not exist. I have shot quite a few black suits, maybe it is the fact that I almost always use daylight lights HMI, fluorescent or lately LCD's. I think tungsten lights seem to aggravate the situation.

What I do if I notice a problem in the shot, is white balance with some of the questionable black fabric in the frame with the white card (about 50/50). Having a good evaluation monitor helps spot the problem before it bites you hard.

I think tungsten lights seem to aggravate the situation.


They absolutely do, Olof. However, even with natural light, when you use heavy ND filtering the far red problem is obvious.

Perhaps you just happen to use some special PP, which crunches blacks a lot - this would turn all possible shades of black into deep black?

Re: the OP's question - after proper WB-alancing, I do not have any color shift with my T1.

I have shot interviews with staff dressed in green corporate colours and now they have maroon/brown jackets! Tiffin filter now in place at all times and no problems. You do not know what is around the corner to stuff you. By the way the Tiffin filter thread will not hold filter ring for fixing on matte box so now have to get rails, all because Sony fitted the wrong filters.

I have found that the T1 seems to muddy things somewhat. I am going to do more experimentation though. I will say that it is an absolutely essential filter to have in the toolkit first gen EX1's and EX3's, but I doubt I will keep mine on all the time.

I set out a black fabric tripod case & a black fleece on a black leather sofa. Lit with plenty of indirect daylight. The leather sofa was BLACK, the tripod case was somewhat red and the fleece was very reddish brown. No tungsten, no direct sunlight. Very blue indirect daylight.
I shot a project outdoors on a cloudy day. Many, many people wearing various black clothing. Virtually all the black synthetics turned reddish brown. Looked like a UPS convention. This was before I received the T-1 filter.
It's definitely not just tungsten.

Since this problem came up with EX, I've been watching for this on TV. I've been seeing it a lot now that I'm looking for it. It isn't just EX cameras. I'm sure a lot of what I have seen was not shot with EX. It's less of a problem but it's still there.

It's definitely not just tungsten.


Agreed. I've done a number of shoots outdoors over the past 7 months with an EX1 and the problem is evident in all outdoor lighting conditions.

The most amusing was a shot of a brass band playing. You could see exactly which members had cheaper jackets/trousers that had a synthetic blend, and which members had the more expensive natural fibres!

One member had a jacket that was OK except for the fact his lapels were synthetic!

My T1 is on order but I'll only be using it where it is required.

I can just see the situation now,

"Sorry old chap, but your taste in clothing is far too cheap to appear in front of *my* camera."

I can just see the situation now,

"Sorry old chap, but your taste in clothing is far too cheap to appear in front of *my* camera."

It was just amazing how 10 or so people in what looked like identical attire to the naked eye were all in fact not wearing not quite identical attire at all. Luckily for me it didn't matter on that occasion.

But imagine you were covering a concert orchestra only for the view to be peppered by people wearing brown/purple instead of black!

Even if some people reading this think they don't need a T1, they could save an awful lot of explaining to the client if they stash one in the camera bag just in case.

You mean something like this.

A great illustration of the problem!

I have found that the T1 seems to muddy things somewhat. I am going to do more experimentation though. I will say that it is an absolutely essential filter to have in the toolkit first gen EX1's and EX3's, but I doubt I will keep mine on all the time.

I have the same feeling, just looking at a red LED through it I can see how much it is attenuating the visible red part of the spectrum. By very crude measurements using the camera I'd say the loss is over 1 stop. By comparison the 486 shows no loss. The 486 stays on the camera.
Only reason I bought the T1 was to try it out and also to see if I could fit it behind my WA adapter.

I could be wrong, but I felt that on the last shoot I did that the T1 made peoples faces a bit pasty. Again, it could have just been the light and I need to use it a bit more to be sure.

I have the same feeling, just looking at a red LED through it I can see how much it is attenuating the visible red part of the spectrum. By very crude measurements using the camera I'd say the loss is over 1 stop. By comparison the 486 shows no loss. The 486 stays on the camera.
Only reason I bought the T1 was to try it out and also to see if I could fit it behind my WA adapter.

Yes it IS attenuating the visible light spectrum, and yes - it DOES inflict considerable light loss.

Nevertheless, I find the T1 attenuation correctable much easier than the 486's green vignette, and as to the low-light capabilities - well... It usually so happens with me that the more I care for an event's colors being rendered truthfully, the better it's lit (more powerful stage lights, etc.).

All in all, my case is the opposite to Bob's: I used to have the 486 which I sold away, and now have the 77mm screw-in T1 AND its 4x5.65" version coming soon...

But keep it on at all times? Not at all!

I haven't had a chance to try mine out yet, but what problems do you suppose I will run into under stage lighting. What did you set the white balance to?

John

I could be wrong, but I felt that on the last shoot I did that the T1 made peoples faces a bit pasty. Again, it could have just been the light and I need to use it a bit more to be sure.

My understanding is that skin is a fairly complex thing. Not only is the outer layer reflecting light but the blood itself is reflecting deep red and IR which can penetrate through the skin.

What the T1 filter is doing is altering the response of the red channel sensor. White balancing does not correct this. Technically speaking the 486 filter gives more accurate color reproduction than the T1. Plots of filters similar to the T1 show this, interesting that Tiffen do not provide plots of the T1 whereas B&W do for the 486 and a warning about using it at wide angles.

I had hoped to get the T1 tested using the right equipment and I have gotten as far as finding a lab with the gear to do this. Unfortunately it's going to cost at least $400 and for me at least only confirm what I already know.

Tiffen have shown a general spectral curve for the T1 vs a stock EX. It does cut pretty strongly across the board.

http://www.tiffen.com/userimages/T1_IR_Charts_SS.pdf

Thank you so much for that David, that saved me either some money or a bit of jerry rigging.
For comparison the response curve for the 486 is on page 5 of this document:
http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/industrial/Industrial%20Optics%20Filter%20Catalog.pdf

My understanding is that skin is a fairly complex thing. Not only is the outer layer reflecting light but the blood itself is reflecting deep red and IR which can penetrate through the skin.

What the T1 filter is doing is altering the response of the red channel sensor. White balancing does not correct this.

Yes - spot on again, Bob. Having also noticed what you describe, I simply developed a special PP for those situations where I MUST use my T1, whereby a (quite wide) skin color range is shifted a bit towards red.

This (plus a proper white balancing) makes my pictures quite neutral, while preserving the blacks (and dark greens, and dark blues)...

I bought a T1 with little hesitation after a painful experience naively trying to match with a Z1. couldn't seem to get those browns to agree...

Any advice on good PP settings to compensate for T1 green tint would be much appreciated.

In conference or PR business shoots where the suits of the speakers seem to predominate in black ... I have noticed a difference between T1 and no T1. I've yet to have a skin tone problem but will check on that more closely.

This shot was done using a Lowell DV Creator Kit #55, which is of course, all incandescent. You'll notice that the area of the black drapes lit by the hair light creates more IR contamination than other areas. Thankfully, all it takes to fix this is one click in FCP's 3 way colour corrector.

I have had 2 Tiffen T1 IR filters on order for a while now.

- Don

Don that Redish glow on the back curtain doesnt really bother the picture much, if i was analising this i would think that turning her into a red-head :-) would be the thing THEY would notice . In THIS case couldnt you just offset the light(s), solve the excess in the center, and kill the light reflection on the glasses in the same move?

that wouldnt cause me to stuff a filter on, thier skin tones look ok and all thier blacks other than her hair is ok. and the whole thing doesnt fall into the OMG look what happened realm. I can see it, but its not destroying everything at all.
If you can get them to smile, instead of worring about such excess technical stuff :-) why it wouldnt exist at all

We interviewed about 40 sets of people over a 2 day period in 2 different rooms. I was the card wrangler and hired 2 crews, including boom operators, to do the actual shooting with my gear. The lack of smiling was because of the subject matter: serious human rights violations. The frame grab was taken before that particular interview got underway.

- Don

My T1 arrived this morning after what feels like years of trying to get hold of one. Just done a few experiments.

Wow, it does fix the black problem. However the blacks still don't look quite as they look to the eye (or indeed my Z1). Highlights on them tend to lean towards being greenish. This is despite white balancing. The Z1 was coping just dandy.

Yes, there's also the loss of light. Not much but might be enough to be critical in marginal situations

Conclusion - It won't be staying on all the time as some people recommend. Instead I'll pop it on for interviews and specific material where I can see there is a problem. Otherwise you'll end up having to colour correct every shot to make it look more like the EX1 we know and love.

It's like any other filter I carry in the camera bag. I wouldn't leave the polarizer on all the time and I'm not going to leave the T1 on all the time either.

Would be interested to hear if anyone has a preset look for the T1.

Markus,

There is no such thing as the "best" PP for the T1. The only thing I'm trying (with varying success) to incorporate into my own PPs (for those situations where I need to put the filter on) is some color correction (shifting the hue of skin tones towards red just a bit).

Thanks everyone for all your comments and suggestions.
I'm going to stay away from the T1 as much as possible

Today I was filming this girl in a black t-shirt. I noticed the black browning up in the flip out screen and put the 486 filter on. This fixed the shot and it looks really good even though there's not much light
The full wide wide shots did not show any vignetting that I can see

But on this grab of a shot 1/2 zoomed in you can see a weird blue corner
There's a window just to her right so I guess the rays are coming in at a low side angle and hitting the filter
I remember now I didn't have the lens hood on so that may have caused it

Apart from that a great day!

Yep, sure looks like a light flare to me, too.

Hello EX1/EX3 users!

We here at Schneider have developed a new and better mouse trap for your EX cameras and IR pollution.

We have a new 1/2 stop loss IR filter that blocks all IR light in the appropriate range. It loses 1/2 stop of light and has a slight blue cast which is easily white balanced out. In our extensive testing, we have been able to greatly reduce if not eliminate the IR issues with the EX series cameras.

This new filter features absorbtive IR technology which unlike the 486 or True-Cut series will not create any off-axis color shift at wide angles. The 486 and True-Cut still remain active products because they do not have light loss and can be better for situations where longer lenses are used and 1/2 stop light loss is a critical issue.

If anyone is interested in testing this filter for everyone here and posting the results, I will gladly send one to you; first come first served. I should have our own sample images up soon. Please email me here if you are interested.

Thanks,
Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Sent you an email!

I'm in too. I have a 486 just gathering dust here so this is interesting. Email coming.

Count me in. Email sent!

Ok, I have reached the maximum number of people that I need to do our testing in just a few short minutes. Thanks to everyone who responded. We should have a message posted in the next couple weeks from a dvinfo user who will accurately and hopefully unbiased review the new Schneider 1/2 Stop IR filter.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Would have been interested as a new T1 owner. Never mind.

Used the T1 in anger for the first time last week. Even after a full manual white balance I do seem to have a slight green cast. Its easily colour corrected out but is a pain. It was only evident on certain colours though it had to be said.

That said its far less of a pain than my blacks turning dark purple. But it does confirm I'll only use the filter when I can see a problem in the viewfinder (as I did last week).

We have a new 1/2 stop loss IR filter that blocks all IR light in the appropriate range.

What sizes?

All sizes will be available but first production run sizes are 77mm and common square and rectangular matte box sizes.

Pricing and ordering info to follow shortly.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Ryan,

Will this new filter have a front thread this time? And when is it likely to ship? Was going to pull the trigger on a t1.

Dan

Good question Dan. The TI filter has a short thread that is useless so had to find otherways of fitting mattebox to EX1. It seems every solution brings another set of problems. All because Sony decided to give us a unique feature instead of fitting the correct filter. Still love my EX1 though.

Good question Dan. The TI filter has a short thread that is useless so had to find otherways of fitting mattebox to EX1. It seems every solution brings another set of problems.

Good point about the T1's front thread being ridiculously short - this alone made me buy both the 77mm and the 4x5.65" versions :(

I ordered my T1 as a normal fully threaded filter specifically from Tiffen - not a "slim" filter because I will sometimes use it between my lens and a 35mm adapter.
Also I tested and knew a normal filter would still have room inside the Sony Ex-1 lens shade.
Granted mine was a special order because I helped test the filter. Are all the ones on the market the "slim style"? I'll bet you could complain and either send it back for a retrofit. Its probably just a question of getting all or part of a different ring unit. You could probably do it yourself with cheap $10 filter that you opened up.

Tiffen is pretty customer friendly so I bet if you all complained you'd get a retrofit and maybe a change of marketing policy.

I ordered a standard T-1 filter. It has front threads that I use for my matte box. No problems. The stock lens shade for the EX-3 also fits.

Will the Schnieder filter come in a size to fit the Fujinon EX-3 wide angle lens? It appears to be a 95mm thread.

How soon?

I have been leaving my T1 on all the time. I do a white balance, and the far red problem is fixed. However I still would like to make a preset WB in a Picture Profile for daylight sunny shooting. I haven't got around to it yet, but before using the T1 I had a PP with WB set to 5600 that worked great for general outside sunny use. Theoretically I should be able to go out on a sunny day, set a WB, note the temp, then make a PP with that temp as the preset - replacing the 5600 as a go-to temp for outdoor shots you don't have a chance to get a proper WB on.

Has anyone tried this? What temp did you come up with?

Unfortunately, a CT preset will not work by itself. You need to compensate each of the 3 channels differently, which only can be done balancing with AWB.

That wouldn't be much of a problem, except it's too easy to inadvertently knock the AWB push button during the shoot, and spoil the WB as the switch is not at the "preset" position.

I have been leaving my T1 on all the time. I do a white balance, and the far red problem is fixed. However I still would like to make a preset WB in a Picture Profile for daylight sunny shooting. I haven't got around to it yet, but before using the T1 I had a PP with WB set to 5600 that worked great for general outside sunny use. Theoretically I should be able to go out on a sunny day, set a WB, note the temp, then make a PP with that temp as the preset - replacing the 5600 as a go-to temp for outdoor shots you don't have a chance to get a proper WB on.

Has anyone tried this? What temp did you come up with?

I don't believe this will work because as far as I can see the filter affects each colour differently and it depends on the conditions.

I would also refrain from keeping the filter on all the time. I was using it for the first time in anger last week and ended up far from impressed. It cured the problem I had for the shots in question, but even after a WB certain colours took on a green tinge and the image lacked a certain "punch" which took some work with Colorista to restore.

The T1 should only be on the camera when you have a specific problem IMO. Its solved my black problem fantastically but not only did the image take on the aforementioned characteristics, the light loss in the situation I was in was annoying.

Piotr, is AWB different from ATW? If so, how does one AWB which compensates for each channel?

I recently got the T1 and notice a green cast, which is easily fixed in post.

Steve,

Very generally speaking: in ATW mode, your camera is *supposed* to track and adjust CT completely automatically for you (e.g. when following your subject, you are shooting inside with tungsten light and then you need to go outside for day light - and you cannot afford to stop shooting for taking manual WB). On some cameras this can actually work, but not on the EX cameras where it's pretty useless.

AWB is triggered manually by pressing the button while pointing the camera at what you want to appear as white (or shade of, hence a "white card" or "warm card").

I think this IR issue might not be specific to the Sony EX line. Last night I was watching the Chicken Buster episode of Dirty Jobs, and I noticed some of the dark blue/black uniform trousers had that reddish-brown tint. I was careful to note the shots where I saw it... all were from whatever shoulder-mounted HD cams the show is using. The trousers looked fine in the shots from the Z1Us.