How do I go about putting copy protection on a dvd? Is this something that the higher end NLE's have or is this strictly done at an post production house?

You'll have to send your DVD off to get that protection...
Check out Macrovision RipGuard-MOD: Protecting DVD Content Owners from Consumer Piracy (http://www.protecteddvd.com).

Adobe Encore has a built-in lower level protection.

Keep in mind that copy protection schemes on DVDs are relatively superficial. There are a number of ripper products that defeat copy protection.

What's the point of copy protection on a DVD? It won't stop any serious counterfeiting operation (or even slow them down). All it will do is perhaps keep a few folks from giving a copy of your DVD to a friend here and there, and even then, only the ones who don't know how to rip a DVD (which isn't exactly what I would call challenging).

That's exactly what I said in my earlier post in this thread (which seems to have been deleted). It's just not worth it and only deters the casual copier of the DVDs.

Andrew

Fully agreed.

I think a note saying something along the lines of "by purchasing this DVD you will contribute to [fill in the blanks], while making unauthorized copies just makes my life a heck of a lot harder..." is a lot more efficient.

I've already seen DVDs from smaller production houses who sell thousands if not tens of thousands of copies without any copy protection.

It's so easy to break, not worth locking. BluRay was barely emerging two years ago and the copy software was already floating on the internet, for free.

What's the point of copy protection on a DVD? It won't stop any serious counterfeiting operation (or even slow them down). All it will do is perhaps keep a few folks from giving a copy of your DVD to a friend here and there, and even then, only the ones who don't know how to rip a DVD (which isn't exactly what I would call challenging).

I am adding to what is being said. You can put copy right protection if you want. DVDA have that feature. Copy right is only good prevent copy DVD to DVD but it will not prevent from RIP it. They are a crap loads of programs can do that easy as pie.

And don't be too concerned with putting the standard legal boilerplate on such as the record companies do.

Just put "Copying this DVD is wrong." which I imagine is more effective at communicating the issue than something a lawyer might come up with. Put it back on their conscience.

Andrew

One way is to use a DL printable. Most people try to do a DVD to DVD copy using a standard DVD and it won't work. If someone wants to "rip" the DVD, there is not much you can do.

Actually that's a pretty handy idea there. The expense overhead that has hindered wide-scale adoption of the dual-layer DVD could well be the thing that can save the day for this issue.

Andrew

Other than the most observant computer techie... Nobody expects the master to be on a Dual Layer DVD when the program is under 2 hrs.

Gary: Wouldn't a simple "fit-to-DVD" checkbox in Toast or the comparable over-the-counter copy and disc management software circumvent that or am I missing something?

I am sure it would, but if you can fool just a few of them it would be an improvement. From my experience, most of the people who do this would not even try to to check the box and after the first try would figure it was copyguarded and maybe stop.

sure we dont find running and having special software and ripping a dvd challenging, but the people who are BUYING the dvds have what? standard computers, built in software, and limited skills.
If you can put on the cheeziest copy protection, to stop it from drag and drop instant copy off of any computer sold with an operating system, i think you do reduce the "who Cares" blind copy and passing to another person that you will now not sell one to.
Turn around an look at some of the BS people have gone through to rip-off a copy of somones protected stuff, and you wonder if a job flipping burgers woudnt be easier, then they can just buy a copy.
many people have jobs that would easily pay for the DVDs and they have computers and burners and all that suff paid for by the same jobs. But they arent nessiarily natural born pirates (err brilliant tech geeks), or have spent thier time decoding some protection, or spending hours on web sites to find the right virus filled software to crack this weeks protection scheme. They have a normal life, and with Zero protection, they have a normal computer and a copy done with a few easy steps.

so the first Level of protection would be anything that stops Normal humans that dont live on computers, from putting the DVD in a normal computer, and pushing one button and it working, and all aspects of it working, the menu, the chaptering, everything you did gone in one press of a button on a machine they already own. If they have to "work" for it, they can do thier real job and easily pay for it :-)

oh wait the first level is getting paid for everything you do, so who cares if they copy the DVD :-)

By the same token, if rather than spending a lot of time and effort on trying to copy protect DVDs, you simply spent the same amount of time and effort working in a burger joint, you would likely come out much further ahead.

I was thinking of working at WalMart :-) . . . to pay for the "protection" .
or if you have to pay Macrovision $10,000 a year Plus have all the special Machines to work with it , like back in analog days, then you might as well become a duplication facility and hang up the camera altogether.

Someone told me a long time ago: Locks only keep honest people out.

My dad taught me how to pick locks, and I'm certain that modern-day folks have learned to pick electronic locks as easily.

Maybe as someone said, put in a message that creates a sense of compassion against theft: Have a short video of a little girl in difficult circumstances and have a VO: Buying this DVD will help Danielle get through college someday and provide for her family. Thank you for your contribution.... etc. :-)

You can put copy right protection if you want. DVDA have that feature. Copy right is only good prevent copy DVD to DVD but it will not prevent from RIP it. They are a crap loads of programs can do that easy as pie.

Bruce do you mean Sony DVDA, if so which version? We're at this stage and has been said
we only want to stop someone making a friends copy.

Using DL stock sounds good but the blanks cost a bundle.

Cheers.

8X White Inkjet Hub Printable Double Layer can be found for about .70 cents each. I think for small jobs, it is a good option and much cheaper than most copy guard systems. Like someone said in an earlier post.. It is only going to stop the novice pirate. Anybody that reads these pages will know how to get around the error message that comes up.

I am sorry to say that I was caught by this a couple years ago. I duplicated a project on DL and got a customer call wanting to know why I copyguarded their program. Took me a while to figure it out, but they were just using nero wizard to make a simple DVD to DVD copy and they were getting an error because of the DL master to single DVD. I plan on trying this DL method in my next project and I will update here if it works.

There's no way that you are going to wind up with more profit, from the possibility of increased sales by perhaps stopping somebody (but probably not) from copying a DL disk that cost you more than twice as much to burn than a SL disk (and Nero's suite, which is awfully common and includes "Nero Recode", makes it just super easy to recompress a DL DVD video to fit on a SL disk - okay, some folks are as dumb as petunias, but not everybody).

For every buck you gain in revenues (if any at all) from folks that buy a disk because you thwarted an attempt at copying one, by using DL disks, you're probably going to spend over $100 extra burning needlessly expensive disks. I mean, for goodness sake, if you burn a thousand DL disks, is that even going to yield a net gain in sales of 1 disk???

It's really paranoid to think that everyone buying your video is going to rush out to the store, buy a pile of blank disks and make lots and lots of copies, and that the folks they give them to might actually have purchased a copy of your video (or even known of it's existence) if their buddy hadn't handed them the dreaded pirated copy.

Actually, it happens to a production company that I do some work for. They will come in and video an end-of-year concert, paid for by the sales of the DVDs.

They have actually overheard people stating that [friend of the family] is buying one so they'll just make a copy for themselves on the computer.

It's quite disheartening for them as they sit there at the ordering desk.

Andrew

yup when you charge by the disc instead of for the production, a single person with any ol computer can take you for $300-1000 , without a thought or any action required to break the protection.

EX: long ago i charged $30 a disk for a stage event, with 20 required, most people bought 70-100 copies, one group ordered the stock 20. i called the group leader Mrs. Smiley , i guarentee she didnt know how to break a protection, she just got the required 20, and did whatever she wanted after that.
and next year she wasnt smiling :-) when we had better things to do than her work.

I have done this before and it works. What you need to do is to add 10 minutes of blank / black video at the end of the last chapter. After the DVD is burned, use an exacto knife to make some mark on the outter edge on the DVD where the different shade is visible to you.

In that case, the DVD can still be played fine on computer and DV player. However, when someone try to make a copy with the computer, it will report error and won't copy the entire disc. If they ignore the error, they can copy everything except the last 1GB file in the Video_TS folder.

another trick that is similar, that i have not been willing to unload on my customers because of its ramifications.
Add that extra video or 2 at the end of the project, duplicate in a "tower" (they sell small towers for really cheap) When the video copy gets to the last bit of data 4312m or wherever the last few megs of useless junk you have added on, Then Crash the tower, by turning it off right in the middle. (probably kills the backup TOC too)

Every DVD player i have tested with it, plays a dvd a lot like a tape, so it doent know what hit it till it gets to the mulched data point, then some will freeze up, but not permenently. if it was on (say) the last Track, with one track before it playing the "star spangled banner" :-) they can turn it off before it hits that point.
also special scripting (i cant do yet) can keep a normal dvd player from ever playing that track at all.

With average copying software , the software crashes :-) Some Rippers will even crash when it reaches this nasty ending. put back in the tower it wont pre-scan proper, and trying to tower copy it it shows an error. The fun thing is nobody knows that it is about to happen, so they waste all the time and boom they get nothing.
Add in the scenario that they just promised the 5 other people they split the costs with a copy, and they are back on the web for a few hours trying to find the right ripper :-P

ramifications , on peoples computers it can crash the playing software, if it plays that area. as long as it is an NT type system (like xp and vista and all) the program playing it can then be task ended, but it is sure to tick off some people. Dont know what happens if they play that part on a mac.

an analog copy is then a piece of cake still of course.

its Nasty, but cheap , and i dont have to pay anybody anything. It is also unexpected , as all the special ripping software is looking for appropriate protection , not a hack job smashing the data into oblivion.

The most clever copy protection I have been made aware of recently being implemented by some studios goes something like this: They build their DVD's with 99 chapters (the maximum), actually encoding the DVD so that the VTS is in non sequential order, then scripting the DVD so it seamlessly plays in the correct order.

If you rip a DVD that has been set up like this, then you will end up with a file that has 99 non sequential clips that need to be edited and re-arranged to get back into the original order. Makes it very hard for personal use copying, or those who would rent and rip. Obviously large scale operations may take the time to rearrange those 99 chapters to the movies correct order, assuming they knew the movies correct order, but the extra time and effort for them probably helps the window of time for the studios at least a littlebit.

How about someone just make a copy of the video_ts folder? Does your trick has any impact on this action?

Bruce do you mean Sony DVDA, if so which version? We're at this stage and has been said
we only want to stop someone making a friends copy.

Using DL stock sounds good but the blanks cost a bundle.

Cheers.

My Sony DVDA 5.0 have this copy protection but I don't use it. > Project Properties> click copy protection> you will see Disc copyrighted yes or no.

The most clever copy protection I have been made aware of recently being implemented by some studios goes something like this: They build their DVD's with 99 chapters (the maximum), actually encoding the DVD so that the VTS is in non sequential order, then scripting the DVD so it seamlessly plays in the correct order.

If you rip a DVD that has been set up like this, then you will end up with a file that has 99 non sequential clips that need to be edited and re-arranged to get back into the original order. Makes it very hard for personal use copying, or those who would rent and rip. Obviously large scale operations may take the time to rearrange those 99 chapters to the movies correct order, assuming they knew the movies correct order, but the extra time and effort for them probably helps the window of time for the studios at least a littlebit.

Craig

I've come across this and it seems to me to work pretty well. Do you know whether it is something that a small operator (well tiny) like myself can use, but I'm guessing that it is more the province of the large studios.

I heard that not only are the 99 chapters in a non-sequential order, but the order can change between different pressings. So if someone posts on a hack site and says here's the order you need to put them, then it will only work for discs from that particular pressing.

actually encoding the DVD so that the VTS is in non sequential order, then scripting the DVD so it seamlessly plays in the correct order.

Don't you run into seek-time delays as it physically seeks to the next logical chapter?

Shaun

No delays on the one example I saw.

No seek delays that I saw either. I am not sure if there is any consumer DVD authoring software that can handle this process at the moment, it probably requires something that digs deeper into the DVD architecture, but it's certainly the cleverest anti-piracy tech out.

I'd certainly like to know how they actually do it. Brilliant idea.

Doesn't surprise me that there isn't any gliches from seek times. Given how the drive mechanisms for computer DVD drives are well beyond the 1x spec, it would go without saying that this tech improvement would easily be back-ported to DVD player mechanisms.

I'd expect that decent DVD players would have a buffer internally so that any minor interruptions to reading the disc don't manifest to the viewing experience.

Andrew

My solution is simple: I don't take projects where my income depends on a per-disc charge. I get a flat fee for the production, then charge a fair price for DVD duplication (typically $2.25 per copy in paper sleeves, a little more in cases.)

If the client wants to make sharpie copies of the DVD, that's fine by me, but I'm sure they'd rather pay me for a professionally made copy.

If a client calls and wants me to shoot an event and they try to tell me how much I can make on DVD sales, I'll tell them $xxxx for the production and I'll provide xxx DVDs for them to sell.

I am not sure if there is any consumer DVD authoring software that can handle this process at the moment, it probably requires something that digs deeper into the DVD architecture, but it's certainly the cleverest anti-piracy tech out.
Probably something like DVDLab will do the job. DVDlab DVD authoring tool (http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/)

My solution is simple: I don't take projects where my income depends on a per-disc charge. I get a flat fee for the production, then charge a fair price for DVD duplication (typically $2.25 per copy in paper sleeves, a little more in cases.)

If the client wants to make sharpie copies of the DVD, that's fine by me, but I'm sure they'd rather pay me for a professionally made copy.

If a client calls and wants me to shoot an event and they try to tell me how much I can make on DVD sales, I'll tell them $xxxx for the production and I'll provide xxx DVDs for them to sell.

Aside from eliminating all the screwing around, that's also much kinder to people buying the DVD, to whom the video represents a priceless memory and may have a genuinely legitimate interest in backing up for the long term.

Anyone tried or heard of this?
Patronus - DVD Anti Rip Copy Protection (http://www.fortiumtech.com/patronus_dvd-anti-rip-copy-protection.aspx)

The logic is that if you can't rip it, you can't make a copy. It works with dvd burners.

It sounds promising, but if it is software based then it will eventually be defeated by the people out there with a content protection breaking hobby. It's only a matter of time until they notice it, especially if major labels are going to be using it.

So it might do the job for now, but I doubt that it will work for the rest of time.

Andrew

While it is true that software can be defeated, if they continue development to keep up with hackers, then it might be good. But I do see the point that if I can lock the dvd now, it can be unlocked later by a hacker next year. This is from their website:

"Keeping ahead of the mass ripping technologies out there is an ongoing 'arms race'. Patronus is being continually developed to keep ahead in this race with typically 2 new versions being developed at any one time. Vigorous testing based on rip ability and playability is the key criteria in the release of any new version to ensure that a high level of customer satisfaction is maintained."

The issue for already released DVDs is that you can't physically replace them with newer anti-rip versions.

On the other hand, if it can get you through the peak sales period for a commercial title, then it may be good enough to get the job done as far as the business case for it is concerned.

Andrew

Anyone tried or heard of this?
Patronus - DVD Anti Rip Copy Protection (http://www.fortiumtech.com/patronus_dvd-anti-rip-copy-protection.aspx)

The logic is that if you can't rip it, you can't make a copy. It works with dvd burners.

Here is a quote from their FAQ:

The original media content is not modified and play-back quality remains unaffected. This is achieved by introducing copy control encapsulation in areas of the disc that are not read by DVD players during playback.

Translation: Anybody can copy the DVD by using the readily available DVDFab (http://www.dvdfab.com/docs/) software in its "pathplayer" mode. In that mode the software reads the disc the same way a DVD player does, completely bypassing the "Patronus" (what a name, did they rip it off Harry Potter?) and copying only the video to a new disc. The new disc can then be copied without any special software. And of course it will play everything that is on the original disc.

You'd think they'd at least come up with something original. In reality, Disney has been using the same type of copy protection on all of their DVDs for years. And they have been ripped successfully by DVDFab for just as many years. And the same type of protection was used back in the days of 5.25" diskettes! And soon the program CopyIIPC was able to bypass that protection. In the 1980s!

Save your money! If someone wants to rip your DVD, he will. No amount of copy protection will stop them. Most people do not know how to do it. But those people do not know how to defeat the standard CSS protection either. So, use the standard protection and do not worry about hackers. After all, chances are they would not buy your DVD anyway, so it makes no difference to you financially.

I have done this before and it works. What you need to do is to add 10 minutes of blank / black video at the end of the last chapter. After the DVD is burned, use an exacto knife to make some mark on the outter edge on the DVD where the different shade is visible to you.

In that case, the DVD can still be played fine on computer and DV player. However, when someone try to make a copy with the computer, it will report error and won't copy the entire disc. If they ignore the error, they can copy everything except the last 1GB file in the Video_TS folder.

Thanks Taky, I tried this and it works. My sales for an annual event doubled over last year.

I have one possible reservation. By making the small "cut" in the black video on the surface of the DVD, I wonder if , over months or years, that cut could "expose the sublayers" and then that exposure could spread into the program and ruin the disc for playback. Possibly causing oxidation or something like that ???

I wouldn't think so. The polycarbonate disc wouldn't go through too much flexing in its lifetime, and with DVD writeable discs, the data layer is literally on top of the opposite side of the disc platter.

Andrew

Hi Andrew

Ur name sounds very familiar to me...R u working for OPTUS in Brisbane??

Thx
Pushpa de Silva

The issue for already released DVDs is that you can't physically replace them with newer anti-rip versions.

On the other hand, if it can get you through the peak sales period for a commercial title, then it may be good enough to get the job done as far as the business case for it is concerned.

Andrew

Nope, that's not me. Plenty of other Andrew Smiths around ... lotsa fun when it comes to voting at election time. :-)

Andrew

U r right...Thanks Andrew...

My sales for an annual event doubled over last year.

Why do you think your sales doubled? Was it because you notified people that the disks were copy protected, or was it because people bought a disk, went home to try and copy it, realized they can't and came back to buy more?

I'm just wondering because if it was the "copy protection notification" method, you could just say that without actually defacing your disks.

I wouldn't think so. The polycarbonate disc wouldn't go through too much flexing in its lifetime, and with DVD writeable discs, the data layer is literally on top of the opposite side of the disc platter.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew, I hoped someone , like yourself, with a bit of knowledge about the makeup of a DVD disc would put my mind at ease.....

Chris, In the past, like now, orders are placed and prepaid for "X" number of DVDs. That has normally been the end of it. This year, however, the normal number of orders were placed and then about a week later, we got more orders. Almost as many as the original number. Then, a few days later there were orders for even more....

Interesting thought about the using the note and not doing anything to the disc.

I DID place a small note on the DVD cover and on each disc stating that the disc was "protected" with copy-guard. My conclusion(s) might be way off, but that's all I know to attribute to the number of extra orders.

Taky / Tom,

I really want to try this for an annual dance recital that I do for which the sales are way off this year. Many of the parents are friends and I have reason to suspect that there may be some copying going on.

I added 10 minutes of black video to the end of the show in Premiere and authored the disc in Encore with the final chapter having the 10 minutes of black after the credits. After burning, I can clearly see the band on the disc. I took a razor and made several cut marks using a magnifier to make sure I am in the band area only.
Tried the "copy disc" function in Cyberlink Power2go and the "copy to disc image" in Infrarecorder. Both made flawless copies with no errors. I keep going back to the disc and beating it up more until now it has about 15 deep nicks and a 2 inch strip that has been scraped totally opaque and still no errors. I thought it might be the blu-ray drive I am using to read the disc so I tried on a different machine with a regular dvd drive using Nero and still no errors.
Is there something I am not doing correctly?

Thanks,
Mat

DVD are written and read from center (with some exception for dual layer)
So , if you got a DVD that is not full, you can see where data stops, because the dye is not the same color when burned.
Looks like you are scratching the empty zone of the DVD, hence no effect.
you have to know too, that DVD are not hard disk, so , there is no track , sector.
the laser is witing a "cloud" of bits, with some of them redundant. If you scratch a disk, there are chance that the internal error correction system can compensate for it (if relevant like video-DVD).
The main difference between reading a video on a DVD and copying it as data is when wathing video, you do not really care to loose some pixels, or even a full GOP, you just want the show to go on.
When copying data, you want a digital copy, meaning a bit for bit image.
That is why where a DVD player could forget about some scratch, a computer reading the same disk could give up displaying some error message about CRC (cyclic redundancy check) or read error.

The worst thing that can happen with scratched disk protection is that some customer could return it saying it is a defective disk (and he would be right), since DVD are not supposed to be sold with scratches. Or specifically put a disclaimer about that.