I am looking to upgrade my nle but want to stay on a windows platform. Final Cut seems to be an industry standard, but what nle is the pc equivalent to Macs Final Cut? I'm talking in terms of stability and overall capeabilities. I'm currently using Pinnacale Studio 12.

AVID is also an industry std for PC.

In terms of how it works and what it does, Premiere is for the PC what FCP is for the Mac. They were apparently written by the same guy.

Avid is not for humans.

But it depends upon what you are doing. FCP and Premiere are both more suited for short form material, while Avid is more commonly used for features, from what I've seen.

Avid is not for humans.

Ok, help me out here.

I've seen numerous comments like this about Avid. Yet it remains a film industry standard. I downloaded it a couple weeks ago for a trial expecting the worst after reading comments like this. I felt comfortable with it very quickly.

Avid can be very expensive of course for the higher end products. It did not seem as difficult for me either. I would recommend Sony Vegas or Adobe Premiere however. Vegas seems to support the most formats and is easiest to use. I use Premiere myself because I work with the whole Creative Suite; Photoshop, After Effects, Encore, etc. Download tryout versions and see what suits you best.

Perrone--

Um, it was sort of a joke. You're smarter than most, as evidenced by your posts around here, but the conventional wisdom is that Avid is still around really as a legacy product, hanging on from when it was the first/only NLE out there, and not designed, as you pointed out, with the computer user in mind, because there weren't any computer users yet.

But once you get the hang of it, it's apparently fine. I tried it and after a few hours, just burst into tears and uninstalled it. I felt like I was on Mars. But then, I feel the same way when I look at a Mac.

Interesting. Perrone, I wouldn't have placed much stock in your impressions of Vegas after two weeks of using its trial version either. You will get to know Avid's quirks and bugs soon enough. What you will also learn is that the biggest complaint that many have about AVID is that they spend an inordinate amount of energy preening for their stockholders and by comparison precious little on their customers. The quaint UI that you are so enamored with is described by many as an arcane relic from the past that the company is too cheap to update. They have been losing money for years. In fairness, your company (who is writing the check for it) needs to know that as well.

Please do us all a favor. Continue to share your impressions of Avid MC as you BEGIN to get to know it but spare us all of the pedantic remarks. We are all getting a little weary of it and we want the old Perrone back. We have very much appreciated all of the helpful advice that you have shared with us in the past but be careful to not let your hat size get too big. Describe your impressions of MC as you see them but you don't need to wrap your comments in snide criticisms of other products and users.

the conventional wisdom is that Avid is still around really as a legacy product

Adam, no disrespect intended, but you should be careful chucking out comments like that. It's just so completely untrue. Do some research about Avid vs. Final Cut's penetration into broadcast and film editing. I think Apple has been better at marketing lately than Avid, but that doesn't make Final Cut a better NLE per se. Both are great professional programs with their own strengths and weaknesses.

From my own perspective, I started on Premiere (self-taught) moved on to Avid and found it easy to pick up. Last year I bought Final Cut and am still struggling to figure it out. It feels so slow compared to Avid that I want to slit my wrists when I'm using it. But I need to learn it because it's one of the two big NLEs, and an editor has to know both. There are things I feel Final Cut does better, and vice versa, but I still find Avid much easier and faster.

I have to agree with my dear friend Vito, AVID rules and FCP drools. But with educational facilities turning out more and more FCP kids the new generation of editors are certainally leaning towards FCP. As for AVID no other NLE even comes close to its media management system. I think that whoever commented about the two handed style of editing nailed it, I can cut faster with the keyboard and mouse working together than I ever can just with the mouse.

Without a doubt FCP is a professional option but it seems all the big, award winning movies and broadcast are cut on AVID-theres a reason-- when $ are on the table and there are no excuses allowed pros choose the best. AVID workflows may not be the Swiss Army knife of editting, but when the job needs doing it delivers world class performance. With the new pricing structure for MC placing it in the same range as FCP it really should rise to the top of poularity again as it will become more accessible for new users. Not long ago MC was a $20k plus solution, now its under $2k for a software only workstation.

Try it, you'll like it.

Jim I get it. You don't care for Avid. That's cool.

FCP is not the industry standard, Avid is.

If you want something like FCP in that works in a PC, the answer is FCP...in a Hackintosh. There's a dongle that makes running Leopard on a PC fairly easy.

Ok guys, time to dial it back a bit. We keep it friendly around here. As always, it's best to express your knowledge about a certain workflow, product, etc. without putting editorial on top of it.

Bottom line is, use what works for you and your needs or, the needs of your employer.

Thanks,

Greg Boston

Please do us all a favor.

The tone of your post won't be tolerated here either. If someone's post offends you, use the "Report Post" button located at the side of every post. This will alert Chris and the moderators to take a look and decide what action to take.

That's why I said you guys need to dial it back a few notches. lest it get out of control quickly.

Thanks,

Greg Boston

You guys need to remember that DV Info Net is *not* your typical internet message board. It's really irritating
how some of you find your way in here from other forum sites, and you're bringing in the snark that you're used
to slinging around elsewhere on the web.

We don't do snark. Period. For those who insist on treating this place like all of the other sites out there, this is why
accounts get locked. I don't mind if you read DV Info Net, but if you want to post here, leave the attitude out of it.

Thread stays open for now, because I'm confident that those who get what we're all about will have something
helpful to say about the topic of discussion. Meanwhile, we're watching closely.

Well based on my interpretation and research that I have done, it appears that AVID, Adobe and Sony Vegas is on the top of the list. I currently use Pinnacle and Im wondering if the AVID work flow is somewhat similar since its in the same family. I downloaded a trial version of Edius which I liked, but it seems that not as many people are familer with it which may make it difficult if I need assistance with projects. Im sure that I could download trial versions of each, but getting to know each one could be quite time consuming. I guess I will have to do a little more research.

Well based on my interpretation and research that I have done, it appears that AVID, Adobe and Sony Vegas is on the top of the list.


I'd say that's probably fair.


I currently use Pinnacle and Im wondering if the AVID work flow is somewhat similar since its in the same family.


I've never used Pinnacle, but if I remember correctly, Avid purchased them. Given that, I don't know how much of Avid's roots are apparent in Pinnacle.


I downloaded a trial version of Edius which I liked, but it seems that not as many people are familer with it which may make it difficult if I need assistance with projects. Im sure that I could download trial versions of each, but getting to know each one could be quite time consuming. I guess I will have to do a little more research.

Kevin, I could only suggest that you take a hard look at what your needs are, and are likely to grow into. Are you producing projects that need to go to broadcast? Are you working for yourself where you can take your time, or do you need 24/7 support? Are you willing to wait while your files get transcoded into the flavor of codec your NLE prefers or do you have a need to just drop it on the timeline and cut. What camera do you use and what is the workflow for that camera in each of the NLEs.

These systems are really more similar than they are different. But each puts a slightly different spin on it.

If you have questions about specific features or needs, I am sure the community here can help answer those, and maybe help you narrow your choices.

I always seem to be in the choosing problem mode, but for me - they key thing is familiarity.

A couple of years ago, I was upgrading the video side of my business, buying new machines and wanted to buy 'the best' software. So, I found myself in one of the rows of seats on the Adobe stand waiting for the premiere session at a video show. I watched it, decided it was for me, but then did the Avid session on the stand next door, and changed my mind. Then finally, I did the FCP session on the stand on the other side and changed my mind yet again.

All these sessions introduce new features to you, and the speed the presenters make things happen is impressive.

I bought a hardly used Avid system from one of the liquidated stock auctions. Got the machine, the interfaces and the manuals. Absolutely hated it. Why, simply because of shortcuts. I've been a Premiere user since version 6, and while Avid is a perfectly solid system, it took me longer to use, because I was doing everything from scratch. I kept using the wrong shortcuts and it frustrated me - so I sold it on ebay. I bought CS3, and since have gone to CS4. Oddly, I've never been a photoshop user. A previous trial had failed badly - hating it. However, I started to use it, simply because of the integration, and a year later, I couldn't see why I hated it. The reason was simply getting to know it. I currently hate After Effects, but I know it's simply me, not the software - and when I have time to get better, I'll love it.

The facts are that Avid, FCP and Premiere - not to mention Vegas et al, are all good products - and their longer term users are happy. They may not like certain ways of working that you need to follow, but by and large, they're happy. The time element in changing is simply not practical. Buy new software and turn a four hour edit into 2 days? and perhaps take 6 months to get the time back?

Legacy customers I'd guess are what most of us actually are. Video and Audio software is now so complex, a quick ten minutes doesn't even scratch the surface, and sometimes these frustrations then get turned into net reviews, which unfairly dismiss products.

I have Adobe products - I'm very happy with them, and just accept the others as very similar products, but I'm not competent with them, so don't feel I can comment - and that probably sums up most of us.

I have similar problems with audio - I love Soundforge (but I don't do Acid?) and hate Logic, which is why I use Cubase through choice. I do have Sibelius for score writing, but am really, really rubbish with it - my colleague plugs a numeric keypad into his laptop, and his hands blur as the music appears. In an hour I can do input work that he could finish in 5 minutes! It doesn't mean Sibelius is rubbish - it's me!

To answer the OP, imho it's Adobe Premiere & Sony Vegas. AVID seems a little more higher end if you're a hobbyist.sole propietor. If you're a busy agency, then yes I imagine it's perfect. I think Vegas is cheaper, especially for a version to handle HD, however Adobe is more compatible with it's entire suite lineup of Photoshop, Flash etc.

However, I started to use it, simply because of the integration, and a year later, I couldn't see why I hated it. The reason was simply getting to know it. I currently hate After Effects, but I know it's simply me, not the software - and when I have time to get better, I'll love it.

Legacy customers I'd guess are what most of us actually are. Video and Audio software is now so complex, a quick ten minutes doesn't even scratch the surface, and sometimes these frustrations then get turned into net reviews, which unfairly dismiss products.


That's an excellent point. A pro level NLE will have a substantial learning curve for anyone who isn't familiar with it. The first part of the learning curve is likely to be awkward and frustrating. For that reason, I have suggested to friends, who are considering evaluating a new (for them) NLE, that they evaluate it for a month, not an afternoon, so that they don't prejudge it before they become sufficiently familiar with it.

I have FCP and AVID on my macs as I need to cover the industry standard packages if I hire an edit suite out.

I also have over 30 years broadcast experience but have never been able to get to grips with AVID but other editors I know absolutely love it.

I love FCP though and it is my personal edit choice but for audio I am back into the AVID camp with pro tools.

Well, here's the thing. To my knowledge no one's ever seen a great piece of work and said, "Wow! That could have been awesome if only it was edited on XXX." The point is that no one can really tell what a great piece of work was edited on. They only know that it was great.

So, the question should be less "which is best" or even "equivalent" but more "which meets my needs, compatibility and price point."

I think the hardest to answer is compatibility. By this I mean, which will work best with the other editors/broadcasters/peers that I'm working with. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective, there is no "standard" if you look at the production industry as a whole. I work for a local cable broadcaster producing spots and prepping spots from other production houses for air on our system. They moved from Avid to FCP several years ago do to budget concerns. I edit on Adobe at my home studio. I get spots edited on FCP, Adobe, Avid, Vegas, Flame & Smoke and even some consumer-based softwares (spots from non-profits and do-it-yourself advertisers). These days it's so much more about codec management than it is the editing software itself.

That's my 38 cents. Happy Editing!

In my opinion, editing software is like most other things, it's an individual preference thing. You just have to download some trials of different software and see which interface and program's workflow best suits your editing style.

I have always liked Premiere the best because of its ability to integrate with the rest of the Adobe creative suite very well, its interface design and because of its versatility working with multiple file formats.

Other people I work with use Vegas because they enjoy the way that it works, some thing Final Cut is the best. Others only will edit on Avid.

It's all a preference.

but it seems that not as many people are familer with it which may make it difficult if I need assistance with projects.

While I love DVInfo and it is my main source of things video, Grass Valley/Canopus maintains its own forum where several employees and many very knowledgeable people hang out. And, its been awhile since I've used it, I believe they have an 800 number for support.

Don't let that stop you.

Yes indeed -- don't underestimate Edius. It's a shame they don't have a better presence here since they're
easily my favorite NLE. But they're doing their own thing on their own site. More power to 'em. Edius rocks.

The multi camera support in Edius is terrific - probably better than other mainstream NLE's.

The Edius forum has ALWAYS been a great resource, even before Grass Valley entered the scene. Their email support is also pretty good, at least it was. You'd get the same service rep every time and wouldn't have to re-invent the wheel every time you need assistance.

Kevin, I see you are coming from Pinnacle Studio 12 and you are asking if the workflow is somewhat the same in avid, well there is no comparison. Avid is in a totally different league, not only pricewise but it's a very complex program compared to studio 12. That's why I"m sure that for Pinnacle 12 or 14 users Avid is serious overkill but it all depends on what your future plans are.
If you need integration with other applications, nothing beats adobe, but it doesn't like big projects in HD, it's instability increases with the size of your project. I have been a adobe user for years and it's only the integration part that keeps me with them.
I also have used edius and in terms of stability and speed it's much better then adobe but I found that it's audio capabilities were less good.
There is one NLE that can't be considered to be aside the "top" nle's but I"m very curious about it but you hardly hear people talk about it, it's called "speed edit" from newtek and it has an unique storyboard which should speed up editing changes considerably. As far as I have seen they have not yet a demo available which I think is not that smart and is the main reason that it is not that known.

I'm a real weirdo because I still use Liquid (also a Pinnacle/Avid product, but now discontinued).
I've read that Edius is the most similar NLE to Liquid.
I've never used Studio and suspect that Liquid is quite different, even though from the same stable. But you may feel at home with Edius so it's worth checking out.

Kevin...

Something else to consider is whether you will collaborate with anyone in the editing process. It's much easier if you share the same software -- and the same version -- with the other editor(s).

Just so happens that the people I collaborate with all work with Final Cut Pro. I worked with the old version of Premiere (4.2), spent a few years with Media 100, then moved to FCP just before I started working with HD.

The specific procedures were different, but all the fundamentals were the same.... tell a story with pictures and sound. Some of the greatest films ever made were assembled with little more than knives and glue.

The Edius forum has ALWAYS been a great resource, even before Grass Valley entered the scene.Thanks. Ten years ago back in the Canopus days, that was Mike Downey and me. That's where I learned how to manage a forum and it taught me a lot. In many ways the experience was a big part of DV Info Net's initial success. Much appreciated,

back in DV days, the reason the Canopus editing forums had little to no activity, was everything just worked everytime. i am not sure how many people did or didnt own it, but it was rare that people spent days trying to get it to work :-)
you gotta admit that a lot of any forum is going over issues , issues people have trying to get something to work, often the same ones too.
so dont judge a product by its web :-) in the Automobile forums you wont find much info about how to fix a car that keeps working either. The working car made a booring forum on it.

i am just saying . . .

If you need integration with other applications, nothing beats adobe, but it doesn't like big projects in HD, it's instability increases with the size of your project.

Sorry, but I have to jump in very quickly. I've read this a lot, twice in this thread alone. I've edited two features in Premiere. One back in version 6 in SD and one in HD using Cineform in CS3 as an intermediate. Adobe and FCP are capable of long format work just as Avid is. Do you have to use some project management strategies? Yes. Can Avid handle the project size better? Yes. But it's a disservice to our forum users to say that Adobe and FCP can't.

Have a fantastic day!

I agree with Chris Hurd - Having made the switch to Edius from Vegas has been a breath of fresh air. I had a 6 minute project that I had initially started editing in Vegas Pro 9 using Cineform Neo Scene AVI's - I was having all sorts of issues - especially since it was a fresh install on Win 7 Pro x64. The moment I spent the money on Edius Neo 2 (yup - the limited feature version), I was able to bring everything in, transcode to Canopus HQ, rebuild and edit the project without a single issue and render out a beautiful 720p final render for the web.

Needless to say, I was shocked and at the same time - pleasantly surprised. Edius is a serious tool that is rock solid as far as I'm concerned.

Vegas IMO, is not suitable for serious production work and makes one a lazy editor.

Just Sayin...