Hi all,

Not posted for a while!

I know you'll be fed up with the "what camera shall I buy" threads, but I've got a couple of questions. I believe I'm right in saying that HDV records at 25Mbps right? Well, after searching the net it would appear the NXCAM can record up to 24Mbps. Does this mean that the Z5 (it has the same chips) will be better quality? Having said that, HDV will have way more artifacts than the AVCHD won't it? Not forgetting AVCHD is a lot less hassle when putting the footage on the computer and searching through clips whilst shooting.

It seems like the Z5 and NXCAM range are very similar, so for me it's just down to what recording format will give the better quality.

Thanks for your help,
Ollie Needham

what kind of artifacts :-) the codecs are different, but given enough pixels changing on the thing they all have some issues. given a choice i would rather have AVCHD codec in use to compress best, and HDV to decompress easier :-)

from what i get so far
both have the same type of lens
one is tape the other is strictally chip
the chip one has a SSD device for long time shooting 128g now
both have same type of 1/3" cmos
being HDV one is stuck at 1440, not that that is a big problem.

and the one thing i would like to see, is that the (optional) SSD device AND the internal chip can be recorded on both at the Same time for backup, that would certannly make it different.

HXR-NX5U
Sony | Micro Site - NXCAM (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-nxcamsite/)

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/micro/nxcam/pressreleases/Sony_AVCHD_camcorders-CES10-FINAL-1-6-10.pdf
The professional HXR-NX5U model is part of Sony’s NXCAM family of video products for professionals. It features Sony’s Exmor™ CMOS sensor with ClearVid™ array, to deliver full high-definition resolution and low light sensitivity with low noise. The camcorder will record AVCHD up to 24Mbps, delivering 1920x1080 high definition images with both interlace and progressive modes along with native 1080/24P, 720/60p and MPEG-2 standard definition recording. Only the professional NX5U camcorder includes both HD-SDI and HDMI™ outputs,

Hi Marty,

Thanks a lot for your reply.

I've never had a tape camera before, my first and current camera is the Canon HG10 which is AVCHD. I used a friends DV camera a week ago, and was disappointed because there was some kind of distortion that affected the footage every so often (would describe it as a "flash" of a white or black "splodge"), so I put this down to it being a tape rather than a tapeless format - am I wrong to think this?

I live in the UK, and have found the price of the NXCAM which is £4000 GBP. The Z5 on the other hand is £2,800 which is a lot more affordable for me (being a student!). All I want to make sure is that if i'm spending close to £3000, I want the quality to be as good as possible and to not have the risk of frequent distortions in the image - if that make sense?

Thanks,
Ollie

You say you can get the Z5 for 2800 GBP
I can only find for about 3700 GBP when searching in UK

So I wonder where you have found it for 2800

Cheers

Hans

If you're not in a super hurry and don't want/need to output to tape, yeah, I'd strongly consider waiting for the NXCAM. It's full 1920x1080, PCM audio, built-in GPS, 4:2:2, time-code capability and other features. I imagine (speculating here) since it's a revised cam the low light and image will be enhanced to some degree and as these things go there will likely be a few other neat features or enhancements over the Z5 ...as is usually the case with newer cam designs. Being solid state, it probably does loop recording so you can have immediate 'go' when you pull the trigger. That would be huge for me and you don't get that with tape (Pretty sure MRC1 does it though). I think GPS is a really nice feature. I'd love to have that for what I do! These are all nice features that will make it a great cam I think.

As for the tape, it depends on what you do. Many need fast transfer and tape is a hassle. It's pretty obvious that tape acquisition is in it's last gasps as a format (already is for consumer cams). I personally like tape back-up. I generally don't need fast transfer. I even do a lot of family recording with my cam too and I rarely ever transfer that. Tape is good to go back and watch later. Tape is a cheap, low-tech and reliable archiving medium. I'm not bullish on DVD archiving as we've all had DVD's (even quality discs) that were unreadable or full of errors after even a few months. Tape allows users to archive a 'master' original copy that can be pulled off the shelf 10 years later if need be (I've done it). I haven't had HDV for 10 yrs to see how it will hold up over time on tape, I'm sure some have negative experiences. Of course you can archive to HD too and store it that way too. Many do that now that storage is so cheap. But it doesn't sound like there is any desire or need on your part for tape storage. Tape also brings along with it the characteristics and potential pitfalls of an electro-mechanical tape transport system and tape heads. Sony systems are pretty much rock solid and you rarely hear of Sony tape systems dying (Canon, different situation). Sony has had decades to refine the technology, but it's not out of the relm of possibility and tape heads do wear over time if you use your cam long enough. Drop outs can occurs as well and getting into condensation situations, dust, sand, the occasional crappy tape all can wreck your day, although prudence can prevent most of these issues. You get away from all that with SS memory. Theoretically the cam doesn't have many wear points to go bad. I guess these are things to factor into you decision making matrix. It seems like the NXCAM's feature set might be a good fit for you. You shouldn't have to wait very long anyway.

Good luck,

Mark,

Where did you read about the 4:2:2?

-Chad

4:2:2 is output to a drive per the article below:
ProVideo Coalition.com: TecnoTur by Allan Tépper (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/atepper/story/sony_launches_nxcam_tapeless_camera_family/)

You should probably place 4:2:2 in the context of the article "even full compatibility with 10-bit 4:2:2 external recording with a device like AJA’s KiPro"

The Z5 would also be 10-bit 4:2:2 with the KiPro. I would venture to guess that NXCAM AVCHD codec would be 4:1:1

I was also thinking of upgrading my Z-5. However, after much thought, I realized that with my MRC unit and using tape simultaneously with the Z-5; I have the best of both worlds.

HDV uses less computer power for rendering as well in the form of .m2t files vs. my AVCHD camera.


It also seems that in order to use the less expensive SD card(s), an $800 dollar unit must be attached to the forthcoming camera on top of the purchase price.

Lens and chip appear the same to me as the Z-5. I don't need GPS-for what? I own one in my car and I-Pod.

However, this is my opinion. Your mileage may vary. :-0)

According to the Adam Wilt review, the NX5 has a noticably better picture, partially because it's full raster and partly because of the AVCHD. If you haven't read it, read the review I posted a link about the NX5.

Last word from Sony indicates it will ship with the ability to use Memory Stick Duo AND SDHC cards! So it can read either. That's huge. It also has an optional 128G the external HD that will store up to 11 hrs of highest quality video. You don't need the external HD to use SD cards. Apparently it's faster with the MS Pro Duo. I like the GPS aspect too. I'm not going to run out and sell my Z5 (because I just got it not that long ago), but if I were in the market for a new cam I'd probably go with the NX5.

Hi all,

Thanks very much for all your responses, it's very helpful!

The Z5 can be bought here: Sony Camcorders - Sony HVR-Z5 HDV Camcorder (http://www.simplyelectronics.net/mainproduct.php?pid=7164&gclid=CKi8h8P3q58CFQiZ2Aod8HOzzg) for £2899. Whereas the NXCAM is currently at around £4000.

There are many benefits of getting the NXCAM against the Z5, however that's quite a large price difference for me being an A-Level student. It would also appear that both are great cameras, but as the NXCAM is of a newer generation, it may be best to save some more and buy that one... As my current camera is AVCHD, it would be easy to combine footage from both cameras too. The only thing i'm not sure about it what to convert the AVCHD footage to? As i'm concious of how much processing power it requires. I'm using Premiere CS4 if that helps with giving advice.

The only other alternative is buying the Z5 with the external drive, although for that price I may aswell buy the NXCAM.

Thanks for your help,

I really appreciate it!

Ollie

I hope you understand that the camera is a " grey import" so you won´t get 2 Years of Sony Silver Support.

Cheers

Hans

Oh right, is it? How did you know that - just so it helps me for future reference!

Thanks!

If they had been authorised Sony Broadcast dealers they would have said that the cam came with 2 years Sony Silver Support

cheers

Hans

Ah right I see!

Thanks for your help Hans!

I used a friends DV camera a week ago, and was disappointed because there was some kind of distortion that affected the footage every so often (would describe it as a "flash" of a white or black "splodge"), so I put this down to it being a tape rather than a tapeless format - am I wrong to think this?

C'mon Ollie, we've had HDV onto Mini DV tapes for many years now, and if tape was subject to splodges it wouldn't have got past the first hurdle.

I wouldn't worry too much about it being a grey import. The difference in price to the white import simply pays for another year's guarantee, and I bet you can buy that cheaper. It's still exactly the same Sony camera, remember, and guarantee repairs are still done by Sony here in the UK whatever colour of the import.

But to your original question. You can bet your boots that the NXCAM is the Z5 replacement. I know Sony appear to sub-divide the niche, but these cameras are just too close to remain in the same brochure.

tom.

C'mon Ollie, we've had HDV onto Mini DV tapes for many years now, and if tape was subject to splodges it wouldn't have got past the first hurdle.

I wouldn't worry too much about it being a grey import. The difference in price to the white import simply pays for another year's guarantee, and I bet you can buy that cheaper. It's still exactly the same Sony camera, remember, and guarantee repairs are still done by Sony here in the UK whatever colour of the import.

But to your original question. You can bet your boots that the NXCAM is the Z5 replacement. I know Sony appear to sub-divide the niche, but these cameras are just too close to remain in the same brochure.

tom.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your reply.

Yeah, fair point - bit stupid of me to say that then! I've found the Z5 with the two years guarantee but it's £3818.75 inc VAT which is the same price as the NXCAM. It'll be a little while before I can afford a new camera, but considering what you and the other members have said, it would appear that the NXCAM is a replacement, and with that in mind the NXCAM is probably the best option to go for. Especially as the world appears to be moving to tapeless.

Have you any pointers regarding converting the AVCHD files to something that my computer could handle easier?

Thanks so much for all your help/replies - I've not been here long but have found this forum to be a very helpful place!

Ollie

You could use Cineform Neoscene Cineform Neoscene (http://www.cineform.com/neoscene/) to convert or buy Edius Neo with Booster EDIUS Neo 2 Booster | Grass Valley (http://www.grassvalley.com/products/edius_neo_2_booster) for a little higher price and get native AVCHD editing.

Ron Evans

Thanks for your reply Ron. I've heard of NeoScene before, so will look at it in greater detail!

I got to play with a pre-production NXCAM yesterday.
Controls - identical to the Z5
Outputs - has both an HD SDI and HDMI out.
The NXCAM also has built-in GPS sensors that will embed information as metadata. I'm thinking of applications for that. I'm hoping third party developers can use it along with time code to track shoots. Still, not finding much use for it in my head.

Yes. AVCHD has a maximum bit rate of 24 Mbps. Same as HDV and for certain design reasons. Everyone, right now, let's agree that bit rate is not the last word on resulting fidelity just as pixel count, sensor type and orientation, and proprietary processor alone doesn't determine quality. I know a lot of folks tend to get excited or distracted by numbers and spec but when was the last time your client ask for sensor type, pixel count or processor brand?

AVCHD is by most measures a more efficient codec than what we have on our HDV cameras. Because most edit software can't edit natively, AVCHD needs to be transcoded. It's here where the rub lies with folks. AVCHD really pounds the edit hardware processor. A minimum system should have a core duo second generation to mitigate stalls or crashing.

The up side is that AVCHD, even in prosumer level cams, results in surprisingly impressive images even with one-chip sensors. Finally, Sony is bringing AVCHD into its pro level cams after all, Sony is one of the AVCHD developers. The NXCAM will be THE cam to settle the AVCHD vs. HDV debate (in whatever area being discussed) because there will be a constant platform (the Z5 for HDV and NX5 for AVCHD) to measure.

Indeed, while some are looking forward to faster workflow because they think solid state, file-based editing is quicker than spooling video off of tape. Nicht so schnell mein freund. Slow down pardner. The transcoding on some systems may take up to three or more times real-time to ingest than importing HDV tape which happen in roughly real time. Also, folks will have to adjust their soup to nuts workflow and consider how does one archive the files. Tape users simply label the tape and, boom, your archived.

The up side in using AVCHD over HDV is the probable increase in video quality in terms of resolution, especially in the horizontal. The claims indicate fewer artifacts especially in busy frames with movement. It'll be cool to see the shoot offs.

I'm hoping that edit software and hardware catches up soon.

Dave

When you move to tapeless you will have to think like an IT person. Tapeless is quicker. Most of my projects use two FX1's ( HDV ) and SR11 and XR500 ( both AVCHD). I can ingest the AVCHD using Sony Browser Software and convert to Canopus HQ, 2 hours of AVCHD in about 1 hour and 20 mins, 40 mins faster than the tape capture. Recent transfer from the SR11 or the XR500 of 2 hour and 15 mins took about 12 mins, the rest is the conversion time to Canopus HQ for editing in Edius . So I am ahead by 1 hour 20 mins for two AVCHD cams compared to the two HDV tape cameras. I can do a lot of editing in 1 hour and 20 mins. For backup I have an IT tape backup unit, a Quantum LTO3 HH ( which cost less than the AVCHD camera) with 400G tapes at about $25. Tape backup and restore is as fast as my hard drives will go on a sustained transfer of about 65MBps. Backup of 2 hours of AVCHD is really quick!!!! When I get the NXCAM to replace the FX1 I think I can get around 4 complete 2 hour projects with data from 4 cameras and the final output with project files on a single $25 data backup tape that is a lot more reliable than HDV or video tape. Physically its also about the same size as 4 HDV tapes so saves space a well.Certainly at the moment the HDV tape capture is the slow part for me. It would be nice to use native AVCHD and I am looking forward to the Edius NEO Booster technology being available on Edius Pro. My PC is a Q9450 Quad Core ( 2.66Mhz), 8G RAM running Vista 64 ( though most of the applications are 32 bit). Boot drive is 250G, temp drive 250G, working RAID of 1.5T and two 1T drives for project storage etc.
As an aside the XR500 often produces a picture much better than the FX1!!. That's why a NXCAM is likely my next cam to replace the FX1.

Ron Evans

well, a few personal pov's:

a. i HAVE to shoot tape for a number of clients, incl national broadcaster. this facet of my business is not going to go anywhere soon.

b. i've ordered a mc1k for a tapeless work flow for my own projects, BUT i'll still shoot tape at the same time. on a paying job there's no way i'm going to depend on a 'archived' hd, or the like. a clearly labelled tape is infinitely preferable to a badly organised, collection of hd's (that are not necessarily guaranteed to spin up after 10 years on a shelf!)

c. i edit client avchd regularly on my i7/920. it works for cut to cut, and basic editing, but for anything more (and it's always more eventually), i find myself encoding to .mxf (i use vegas) for serious speed / quality.

i welcome tapeless, but for the foreseeable future, it's not going to be completely tapeless (and that includes backing up to a quantum tape drive ;-))

leslie

Yes I understand your position. I don't trust hard drives either. The combination of simultaneous backup recording on the NXCAM is also good. My comments on IT approach also agree on tape backup which is the standard in the IT industry. As to organization of archive that is totally dependent on the person, whether using video tape , hard drives or any other form. When I go completely tapeless acquisition it will be possible to organize complete projects in a folder on the backup system with fast access. I use EMC Retrospect software as the backup software and this keeps a very nice record of whats where and can restore as needed very fast ( again much faster than recapturing video tape). The Sony Browser software also keeps a record of activity for the AVCHD too.
I use Vegas for the audio on the projects or family single track AVCHD ( essential cuts only ). Anything more complicated and the AVCHD gets converted to Canopus HQ and edited in Edius.

Ron Evans

Good conversation here. I'm glad people are looking at more than just a single point in a issue that is as important as workflow all the way through archiving. I want to add that in my HDV experience, the tape was always the backup to simultaneous recording onto hard drive which in my case has always been Focus Enhancements products. I used the JVC specific DR-HD100 and now the FS-5. By doing so, of course, I get the benefit of having two capture media from the get go, a "tapeless" file-based workflow, immediate edit capability without transcoding, simple archiving, and lots of peace of mind. In the early days as a producer on corporate shoots I once had to request a reshoot because one of the guy's hard drive (not a Focus drive) and his sole capture medium pooped out. The talent was a company VP. Fortunately, everyone was gracious enough to allow us the reshoot but the client warned me, as I deserved, that we could go elsewhere if that happened again. You can be sure I now insist on redundancy.

Regardless, I'm excited at the prospect of the NXCAM. Along with the possibilities of other technology, I think it moves our industry forward. In the meantime, we can't forget that technology occasionally hiccups.

Disclaimer: I have no financial or other interest in Focus Enhancements other than being a customer of their products.

Dave Burckhard
PicturePoint On-line

Aside from tape v/s solid state memory, does anyone know already if the AVCHD codec on the NXcam is improved over, let's say, the Panasonic 150?

With a modern (and faster?) encoding chip on the Sony, it could make better use of the all the advanced coding possibilities of AVCHD compared to older AVCHD cams right?

Bram, hard to tell what you mean by "improved". Again, wouldn't it be great if we could look at one spec or one number or one technology to tell if one camera is better than another? No one will be able to answer that for you because there are so many factors that determine what's "improved." Not even video shootouts will answer that question for you because you also have your own personal workflow and legacy equipment. Changing video gear is like changing swapping out an engine in your car. If it's more powerful, you have to upgrade the transmission and drive chain, rework the suspension, probably modify other subsystems. Yeah, a Chevy 327 is going to be more powerful than an inline four but is it an improvement if you have to make so many other adjustments?

Don't mean to make a mountain over a mole hill but I think you really have to do consider your entire workflow and investment in your gear including your edit system before tackling the decision of camera changing.

Dave

It was just that I read somewhere that the Panasonic (being a first generation AVCHD cam) doesn't use the H264 codec to it's best.

Supposedly newer cam's with more powerfull processing could give you (much?) better quality with the same codec / bitrate.

Glad to see my topic has generated questions and answers from other members too! So thanks for that - it's answered some of my other questions!

I've been doing some more research, and after watching some demo footage of the NX5, it does look fantastic, it'll still be a while until I can afford one - but it does look like the Nx5 would be the better camera for me at this point in time.

Thanks for all your help guys, very helpful!

I have at the moment the Z5 and I am planning to buy this NX5 but I am scared that my newly purchased PC would not handle the AVCHD format well. My PC is Intel Core (TM)2 Quad CPU 2.40GHz - 4GBRAM - Windows XP Pro. What do you think shall I buy another Z5 or the NX5?

Stelios

Stelios, at this time no computer will handle native AVCHD well.
While native AVCHD can be cut on a timeline, as soon as you start adding transitions, effects (color correction) and the like your computer will bog down. So most will transcode their footage to an intermediate codec anyway, like Cineform, ProRes etc.

this should work well fro most computers and software. The only downside to this if the extra time needed to transcode, still less than capturing tape, and the 3-5X file size increase from native AVCHD to intermediate codec.

But overall if you transcode from the compressed AVCHD codec to an Intermediate, you should be just fine.

PS. for me I am going to be moving to Z5 from FX1 cameras. The main reason is that even though I have been using the MRC1K with my FX1s of a couple of years now, I still like the archival nature of tape, and not be entirely solid state. If I was ready for all solid state though, I would get the NX5/AX2000 in a heartbeat. All solid state means that need to configure a reliable backup and archival solution for past projects as well as projects to be edited.

...But overall if you transcode from the compressed AVCHD codec to an Intermediate, you should be just fine...

Michael, thanks for the info. That sounds fine then. Do you loose any quality from this transcode business?

Stelios

Not really, nothing noticeable.

Do you loose any quality from this transcode business?
Stelios

i regularly transcode to .mxf (vegas) for doing anything more than c to c. if there is any loss i certainly can't see it, and editing it becomes a joy*....

*well, depending on what it is ;-)

I transcode to Canopus HQ and edit in Edius with no noticeable change and the editing runs as fast as DV in Edius. Bear in mind that which ever intermediate you choose will result in files that are from 3 to 5 times the size of the AVCHD files and will need to be on a fast hard drive too as the data rate will be proportionally higher. External USB drives may not work, eSATA will work though. Edius Neo will apparently work for several tracks native full resolution with a fast PC so you may want to look into that too.

Ron Evans

Also remember.... Edius 6 will probably have the AVCHD "Booster" incorporated and Premiere CS5 should be built on the Mercury engine that can handle multiple native AVCHD files with effects like butta.

So, we may have a few months of transcoding, or straight cuts in PPCS4 before the updated software is released.

Until then you could do the Neo2 booster and edit it in RT if so desired.

Has anyone bought from Simply Electronics before?

I'm liking the price of the Sony FX1000, (to replace my FX7)

James

James, if you look at the web site for Simply electics, for the Z5, under Special Deals, they say
" The Sony HVR-Z5 Camcorder comes with an interchangeable HD Carl Zeiss lens and a 1/3 bayonet joint mechanism. You can also use lens from popular Sony SLR cameras with a special adaptor."

If they're saying that they either don't know the product or have copied it from the Z7.

Peter

HWM Sony HXR-NX5 Review Firewerkz Films by Sean Seah (http://seanseah.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/hwm-sony-hxr-nx5-review/)

Heres a review i did last Friday. Edits ok on my Dell XPS on vegas9.

Hey, liked your test of the NX7 and your jump at the start. Didn't quite understand your evaluation at about the 8.5 minute mark saying low light was limited to +6 dB of gain, so could you expand on that please? Also the top screen - how does it compare in Bright Sunshine to my Z1, which is superb.

tom.

Hi Tom, I meant that the usable gain is 6db to me. I found the noise at 9db too obvious for personal preference.

The LCD is better than Z1 for sure. I tried the Z5 against the FX1 sometime ago and that showed up quite obviously. The resolution is much better too. Only thing is there is a purplish coating on the LCD which makes it a little reflective at certain angles. Other than that the EVF rocks too. Better than what I have on the EX1.

Sean, I see you had Z5 next to NX5 - how do you compare images from both cams? How's the different codec affecting the image quality?

And also - how much video can you fit on 16GB card in max quality?

Lukas, I didnt have the chance to take the z5 out for a side by side comparison. But when I compared the footage in V9, AVCHD looks a little better but that is not scientific so I didnt make a claim.

at 1920x1080 25p FX (24Mbps) mode, a 16Gb card can do 85min. So 2 cards already does like 3hrs with one FP 970! That is outstanding in my option, especially for a wedding / events chap.

Affordable media also means one could have loads of backups, which is not too far from the tape days. I guess the only thing that would hold me back would be editing AVCHD on a lower spec machine. I'm running an XPS I7 here so it was pretty ok.

Thanks for your views on the screens and it sounds as if (from your replies) that the NX5's screen is a lot better than the Z7's (which I presume is the same as the Z5's).

I ask about viewing in direct sunlight as that's where I work mainly - run 'n'n gun weddings on summer lawns. In this specific circumstance the Z1’s screen is far better and for one big reason – it’s perfectly visible in bright, direct, full-on sunlight.

I’m a great believer in filming strangers using a side screen, as approaching people with 2.5 kg of camera sticking out of your forehead (using the conventional viewfinder) can make the bravest of the guests apprehensive. But the near invisibility of the Z7’s screen image in sunlight was a real shock to me. I’d far rather have a softer image that I can see than a sharper one I can’t. In the fright of the day I was at times reduced to pointing the camera and hoping; the side screen was as bad as that.

tom.

Has anyone bought from Simply Electronics before?

I'm liking the price of the Sony FX1000, (to replace my FX7)

James

Do a google search for them.
Sound like a right bunch of scammers.