I'm a real newbie to the SLR/HD world, so please bear with me here. I very recently picked up my new 7D. Almost immediately, I departed on a HD shoot and brought my new camera along to play with. I have been shooting much of the same content on my 7D as I have on my XDEX both for comparative purposes, as well as having a second camera on the shoot.

So far, I am extremely pleased, but have a concern that I'm not sure is a playback issue, a hardware issue, or pilot error?
I'm shooting 30p w/ 30th second shutter. The video looks beautiful, but when playing back clips with quicktime, the video looks like it's dropping frames or something.... kind of stutters now and then which I attributed to a playback issue on my MBP.
My client was interested in seeing some of the video from the camera, so I sent one clip via FTP to them. They commented that the stuttering was a real problem, and they were looking at it in an edit bay, with lots of processor power. They also reported that FCP wouldn't import the file normally, Final Cut would hang and they'd have to restart it. I thought these .mov files would import directly into Final Cut? Am I doing something wrong, here, or is there possibly a problem with my camera?
Thanks for any advice.... I'm going to be shooting more this week and would love to figure this out so the video can be used from this great little camera!

There is nothing wrong with your camera. There must be 100 threads on this exact same revelation by 5D/7D shooters. Take some time and read.

Shortcut: Transcode to ProRes and your problems will disappear

Two things.

1. If you are in 30p, then change your shutter to be 1/60th not 1/30th. Try to get as close as possible to doubling the shutter from the fps number. This could add to your stutter feeling, although your problem is mainly below.

2. You can't edit/deliver in that high bitrate H.264 format (still .mov extension). Use Compressor (part of Final Cut Studio) or download MPEG Streamclip (free) and convert the H.264 codec into something else more friendly with your system. I use Pro Res (Apple codec that others can get a reader codec for) but others include DVCProHD, HDV, etc.

I thought some of my early 7D footage was stuttering so I transcoded it to a couple of formats I knew played perfectly cleanly. The "stuttering" persisted. I believe the rolling shutter and inadequate stabilization is causing this complaint.

With inadequate stabilization your frame may change very rapidly from one frame to the next. This is especially true if it is a momentary bump where the camera changes directions rapidly. If you go frame-by-frame over an area that consistently "stutters" at the same point you may notice that things appear a different size or shape relative to one another.

Ex. Put a person in front of a 7D and start rolling. Bump the camera. The person is skinnier in some frames and wider in other frames. When these two frames are immediately adjacent, our brain thinks "there are some frames missing there" and our familiarity with crappy video playback on computers leads us to think it's a playback issue.

Open up the movie properties in quicktime and watch the "fps" value to determine if your player is dropping frames or if you have found the achilles heel of the 7D.

-Robert

Thanks for the input everyone..... Looks like I need to study up on this one. I didn't have time to read much of anything (much less the manual) before departing on this shoot, so I do apologize if this has been covered before.

I did try transcoding one clip to ProRes as suggested, and the stuttering persists. Robert, I'm familiar with rolling shutter issues (I also have an EX3) and this is definitely not a rolling shutter issue. The camera was locked down on a tripod. The image is wonderful, with the exception of the vehicles moving on the highway which seem to skip forward as they pass laterally across the frame. Other clips where vehicles are moving either toward or away from the camera do not seem to be as quite as bad....

You're shutter speed was not helping you. It's far too slow to capture that rate of motion smoothly. You should have been on at least a 1/60th shutter.

Would there be a benefit to bumping the shutter to 1/120 at 30p? I also noticed that fast moving objects in a scene seem to stutter quite badly. For instance, a guitar player strumming the guitar vigorously will look pretty bad when you pay attention to the hand movement. When played frame by frame you can see quite a gap in the hand motion.

I also see this problem with my XHA1s in 30p, which where 60i usually has to come into play.

Would there be a benefit to bumping the shutter to 1/120 at 30p? I also noticed that fast moving objects in a scene seem to stutter quite badly. For instance, a guitar player strumming the guitar vigorously will look pretty bad when you pay attention to the hand movement. When played frame by frame you can see quite a gap in the hand motion.

I also see this problem with my XHA1s in 30p, which where 60i usually has to come into play.

Hear me out...

One of the things I often recommend to folks is taking a basic photography course when getting into this kind of filming. I don't mean that to sound condescending, but there is just SO MUCH you absorb by really learning the ins and outs of F-Stops, shutter speeds, framing, etc. I came from a photography background and there isn't a day that goes by when I am behind the lens that I am not thankful for those years of training and experience.

To answer your question, it's hard to say if going to a 1/120 shutter will improve the look. It certainly imparts a DIFFERENT look, but it's hard to say which is better, because that is totally subjective. Does that make sense?

I hear yah, thanks. I think I understand shutter speeds in photography, but it seems to be a bit different from filming. To capture fast action stills you generally need a higher shutter speed, otherwise the shutter is not fast enough to freeze the fame - so to speak. That combined with fast glass and correct aperture will generally yield crisp - sharp fast action stills...as opposed to blurry ones. Like shooting water droplets...

It makes sense in photography and the results show it. But with filming it just isn't the same result, yeah? I can't simply up the shutter speed to compensate for fast action and expect to have a clean sequence in playback (like i would in photography). Which I guess was where my question came in. I think for myself the lack of knowledge is use of shutter in video, not photo. Never experimented with higher shutter speeds before.

Your answer does help reinforce that 24p and 30p generally yield poor fast action results, regardless of a higher shutter rate. Thanks for the tips!

But with filming it just isn't the same result, yeah?

I can't simply up the shutter speed to compensate for fast action and expect to have a clean sequence in playback (like i would in photography). Which I guess was where my question came in. I think for myself the lack of knowledge is use of shutter in video, not photo. Never experimented with higher shutter speeds before.

Your answer does help reinforce that 24p and 30p generally yield poor fast action results, regardless of a higher shutter rate. Thanks for the tips!

I think this is what catches many people out. For those who DO have a background in photography, you just need to learn how much shutter you can dial in before the video starts to strobe. There is no "frames per second" in stills (outside the motor drive) because photos are seen in isolation. So if you want to get smooth motion, you need to up the frame rate to say 60fps. But that's not suitable for broadcast (or the internet) so it's a balancing act.

Interlaced recording is really the broadcast answer to the motion problem because although it's doing fields, it's temporal movement is 60 fields per second. So fast moving things like cars, athletes, etc., tend to stay crisp. And staying with a 1/60 or 1/90 shutter tends to yield results more in line with what you'd want for that kind of action.

Perrone, thank you very much for your input. While I may not sound like it, I have been a professional photographer for almost 30 years making my living off of broadcast video and still photography. I am definitely going to try a 60th shutter speed, but my experience in the past with Betacams was anything faster than that causes a strobing effect (not to be confused with what I am seeing in the 7D now) on fast lateral moving objects in the frame. Of course, Betacams never had adjustable frame rates, so everything was 60i. Perhaps that is part of my problem, but the stuttering I'm seeing appears to be more than just an improper setting on the camera, although I'm sure it can be making the problem worse or at least more noticeable.

These 'stutters' cause lateral moving objects (in this case, traffic) to jump what looks like a 4 or 5 frame drop distance in the frame. And, it's inconsistent.... a jump here, a jump there, but not consistent in a way that would be the result of an improper frame rate/shutter speed issue. A lot of what I've been reading out there seems to center on the bitrate of the H.264 codec, what version of FCP one is using, and even what type of flash card (speed) is used. As you pointed out, many people are experiencing the same issue, and I've tried some of the 'fixes' but to no avail. Curiously, others seem to have not experienced this issue at all, even when working with the native H.264 codec. This is confusing to me.
I will report back after I try the faster shutter speed, here's hopin'.

I've also experienced this, however just one time only. From what I can tell from my researching is that this is a memory card related matter. Apparently some cards don't play so well with the 7D. It doesn't seem to matter how quick they are from what I've read. I would look into trying a different CF card or manufacturer.

You're shutter speed was not helping you. It's far too slow to capture that rate of motion smoothly. You should have been on at least a 1/60th shutter.

No, you've got that round the wrong way. A 180 degree shutter will be more film like with more strobe. But you're right, a 180 degree shutter is best for this camera.

I agree, with William, it sounds like the camera is dropping frames, which is more than likely a card issue.

The CF card needs to be at least 133x.

Thanks again, everyone. This is why I love these forums..... interesting input to ponder.

My CF card (recommended by the retailer, who is a high-end camera store, but admittedly not an experienced solid-state video store) is a SanDisk Extreme 16GB 60MB/sec. If what Liam tells me is correct, (and I've heard just the opposite too, Liam, which is adding to the confusion) then my CF card is woefully underpowered. While this also bears further investigation, how would it explain some people experiencing success in solving this problem by transcoding to ProRes?

None of my CF cards are faster than 80X, so I guess I'd better go shopping tomorrow....

Also, are there any requirements regarding the ingest hardware? I'm using an old CF card reader I've used for many years to ingest digital still images. I (maybe incorrectly) assumed that a reader is a reader is a reader... (it is firewire 400)

I should be a little more specific about my CF card.... it is a 60MB/sec read/write UDMA card, 16GB capacity. But what I don't know is, what the 'x' write speed it is. I'm getting the feeling now that it is at least 133x, which means I'm back to square one with what is going on with my camera....

No, you've got that round the wrong way. A 180 degree shutter will be more film like with more strobe. But you're right, a 180 degree shutter is best for this camera.

Normally with camcorders I'll use a 180 degree angle, for 30P this would be 1/60th. However, I often use a 1/30 or 'shutter off' setting for the 7D and other camcorders. I haven't found that this increases 'stuttering' but could result in lack of detail for faster moving scenes, potentially more blur in each frame.

I actually like this extra blur in many cases, I actually think 1/30 or 'off' looks more smooth, not less smooth, so some of the statements here about the 1/30 setting causing stuttering are confusing to me.

Regarding the stuttering Derek has mentioned, it seems a bit perplexing to me other than some problem during the capture or playback. However any Mac Book Pro should be able to playback native 7D files without stuttering. Some lower-powered Mac minis I've used do exhibit a kind of stop-start every second or 2. I've been pretty pleased with the smoothness of the 7D playback in most situations, either played natively or transcoded.

On the subject of Compact Flash card speeds, the 60MB/s equates to ~400X. The video data rate maxes out at about 5MB/s which is ~50X. To be safe, you should budget for double that sustained data rate, so I would be comfortable with a quality card at 133X or higher for video work. The only benefit you might see from a UDMA 4 60MB/s is when offloading the card to your computer which will go considerably faster than the 10MB/s of a 133X card.

I know exactly what you're talking about and have a careful watch now on these motion artifacts whenever I am shooting. The squishing and stretching of things is indeed not a rolling shutter issue.. Does anyone have a name for this phenomenon that is more descriptive than "motion artifacts"?

Anyone have a better word to describe this phenomenom?

Thank you, Keith.... this is what I have always felt was appropriate as well. Unless I needed to slow something down (without an overcrank option), I always thought a slower shutter would result in a smoother motion than a faster shutter speed. I still intend to try the 180 degree shutter with my 7D, but I'm afraid that the stutter I'm seeing has nothing to do with either frame rate or shutter speed.

You have a 7D? What type and speed CF card do you use? I also believe that I should not have had any problem viewing the native files in quicktime on a dual-core MBP. While I have seen a similar stutter before viewing HDV files on my old G4, this was always due to an underpowered processor, and was a playback only issue. This 7D stuff is different, and is going to make this camera unusable to me if every clip has to be transcoded just to make it work. For the most part, my clients are not going to be that interested in an extra step just to take files from this camera..... especially if it means transcoding in compressor due to the extremely long transcoding times. Time is money. (literally, when you're paying editors by the hour)

unfortunately no matter how fast your machine is you and your clients will probably have to get used to that extra step!

you will spend much much more time working natively with the files, its possible but every clip and every fade/effect, every time you move something a little to the left or right will need to be rendered to playback in the timeline..

good luck with it!

This 7D stuff is different, and is going to make this camera unusable to me if every clip has to be transcoded just to make it work. For the most part, my clients are not going to be that interested in an extra step just to take files from this camera..... especially if it means transcoding in compressor due to the extremely long transcoding times. Time is money. (literally, when you're paying editors by the hour)

Ditch the 7D now. Because it's going to be a while before CPUs are fast enough to handle 7D footage on their own without a boost from a GPU or offboard processor. People have been discussing this issue with the 5D and 7D since early last year. I'm sorry you somehow missed all that before you spent your money.

However, I will say this. Nearly every digital cinema format that comes in the door needs prep time. This is what asst. editors do. Whether its from a RED, and ARRI, or comes in on HDCAM or HDCamSR, or film. Nearly everything has to be transcoded to ProRes, DNxHD, CanopusHQ, or something else for edit. Stuff get's transcoded to DPX/Cineon for VFX folks to work on. The idea of throwing native, 8bit, 4:2:0 footage onto the timeline seems to come only from broadcast news, or other outlets where speed has to trump quality.

[QUOTE=Perrone Ford;1469645]Ditch the 7D now. Because it's going to be a while before CPUs are fast enough to handle 7D footage on their own without a boost from a GPU or offboard processor. People have been discussing this issue with the 5D and 7D since early last year. I'm sorry you somehow missed all that before you spent your money.


Ditch the 7D now?. Wow, that's unexpected. I was coming here for advice.... Sorry I'm behind the curve on this, but that's what I thought these forums were for. To get up to speed, and get some helpful advice from others who have some to share.

Others have posted that they have no problem without transcoding. This is what I'm trying to nail down, why some have to go through this extra step, and others don't seem to have to. I also was just trying to make sure my camera is not buggered. If it's something as simple as updating my FCP, or using a different flash card.

And for the record, most of my work IS for broadcast network news, so speed is often of the essence.

i think it was just a misunderstanding..

you should be able to simply play the raw files without transcoding, but editing will always require transcoding, otherwise you'll have to continually render in the timeline, which would end up costing you much more time..

the transcoding isnt so bad though, dont let it put you off.. Prores is a good and efficient codec.. you'll have to work with bigger file sizes but otherwise should work fine on any reasonably good working Mac..

I think most people find the normal Prores 422 codec is enough, and probably wont make a big difference in selecting Prores 422 HQ.

Ditch the 7D now?. Wow, that's unexpected. I was coming here for advice.... Sorry I'm behind the curve on this, but that's what I thought these forums were for. To get up to speed, and get some helpful advice from others who have some to share.

Others have posted that they have no problem without transcoding. This is what I'm trying to nail down, why some have to go through this extra step, and others don't seem to have to. I also was just trying to make sure my camera is not buggered. If it's something as simple as updating my FCP, or using a different flash card.

And for the record, most of my work IS for broadcast network news, so speed is often of the essence.

There is no misunderstanding. And I am giving you the advice you need. Just not the advice you want to hear. I'm sorry if that doesn't rate as "helpful". You clearly stated that the camera would not work for you if you had to transcode, and your clients would not accept doing that extra step. Well, with the 7d you ARE going to have to transcode and your clients ARE going to have to do that extra step. Therefore the 7D will not meet your needs or your criteria.

No one here is posting that they can edit 7D footage smoothly without transcoding. Playback, yes. Edit no. There is nothing wrong with your camera, other than the fact it shoots in a format that is too difficult for any of the modern machines to slug their way through. At least only on CPU power.

There are options available from third parties (not sure for Macs) that can leverage the GPU on the quadro cards to assist and make this easier. To make matters worse, you also have an outdated Mac for doing heavy HD editing work.

So to reiterate, if you need a speedy workflow because you are in a broadcast situation, you have a camera that is wholly unsuitable to the task. You can either transcode the footage, suffer through the problems you have now and learn to live with it, or purchase a camera that meets your and your clients needs. Simple as that.

Thanks, Manus
That's exactly what I am getting at..... I can't even view these files in Quicktime without the stuttering, nor can my client. Since they play clean when transcoded, I can safely assume the camera is not the problem.

I did receive this reply from Canon:

"Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and
appreciate the opportunity to assist you. We are sorry to hear that you
are having issues with drop frame video on you EOS 7D.

The choice in memory cards could certainly be the culprit in this case.
I would recommend trying a few different cards if possible, to eliminate
this is a possible suspect. Class VI cards and higher should be able to
used without much impact on the camera. Updating your software to the
latest version of Quicktime may also resolve this issue for you. We
certainly apologize for any inconvenience this issue causes you at this
time."

I have heard this before, too..... but what really makes it confusing is hearing some people say that their card was not fast enough, or others say a card TOO fast can cause the problem. I do have the latest version of Quicktime, so I know that's not the issue.
My card is plenty fast enough according to Canon specs... maybe it's as simple as switching CF card brands? However, that said, IF the card was the culprit, then I would expect the file would not be corrected by transcoding, and would also stutter in-camera which these files do not.

I really don't have a huge problem with transcoding, but if I have hours of footage the time involved simply to get the clips into a loggable format is going to be daunting and a hard sell to clients who are already wary of solid state media. I know this is the future, and I love the aspect of no tape, discs, or spinning hard drives, but it takes some clients a while to warm up to the fact that they aren't getting a tape in their hands at the end of the day. Since I primarily hand off content at the end of a shoot, I have to sell this idea to some rather 'old school' mentalities that are often slow to adapt.

I really don't have a huge problem with transcoding, but if I have hours of footage the time involved simply to get the clips into a loggable format is going to be daunting and a hard sell to clients who are already wary of solid state media. I know this is the future, and I love the aspect of no tape, discs, or spinning hard drives, but it takes some clients a while to warm up to the fact that they aren't getting a tape in their hands at the end of the day. Since I primarily hand off content at the end of a shoot, I have to sell this idea to some rather 'old school' mentalities that are often slow to adapt.

Derek,

I've been shooting tapeless since 2004. There are lots of ways to solve this problem. I shoot XDCamEX. It does not require a transcode to playback smoothly, or edit smoothly. Others do the same with P2 based DVCProHD, or AVC-Intra. Both will play back smoothly on a modern machine. However Handoff becomes a slightly bigger issue because you need to make a copy rather than give your very expensive cards away to clients.

You could choose to shoot on a camera with an HDMI/SDI port and use a NanoFlash. That records on CF cards and you could hand that off to the client. But the nano is $3k, though the output more than justifies the price.

I really am not trying to be harsh here, and I am really trying to give you real professional advice, one pro to another. You've painted yourself in a corner with your camera selection and your stated criteria. So either the criteria has to bend, or the camera does.

did you mention anywhere in all this, if you FrameStepped through the video and saw it, or just on a real time playback. to determine if there are any "frames" actually "missing" from the original recording itself?

are the jump locations in areas where the whole frame of pixels changes?
just curious.

Thank you, Keith.... this is what I have always felt was appropriate as well. Unless I needed to slow something down (without an overcrank option), I always thought a slower shutter would result in a smoother motion than a faster shutter speed. I still intend to try the 180 degree shutter with my 7D, but I'm afraid that the stutter I'm seeing has nothing to do with either frame rate or shutter speed.

You have a 7D? What type and speed CF card do you use? I also believe that I should not have had any problem viewing the native files in quicktime on a dual-core MBP. While I have seen a similar stutter before viewing HDV files on my old G4, this was always due to an underpowered processor, and was a playback only issue. This 7D stuff is different, and is going to make this camera unusable to me if every clip has to be transcoded just to make it work. For the most part, my clients are not going to be that interested in an extra step just to take files from this camera..... especially if it means transcoding in compressor due to the extremely long transcoding times. Time is money. (literally, when you're paying editors by the hour)

Hi Derek

I have a 7D, and I have several macs, my main edit machine is a Mac Pro 8 core with a ATI HD 4870 Graphics card, it's a pretty fast setup so on that system there's no problem playing back 7D footage and doing assembly editing natively, that is using a 7D-native timeline to edit 7D clips. However, as other posters have stated, if you're doing to do ANYTHING to the 7D footage that would require the Mac to render the footage, such as effects, dissolves, color correction, you won't be able to get real time playback on pretty much any system on those areas of the clip(s) that have to be rendered. For example, my 7D is definitely a 'B' camera for me, my primary camcorders are Sony EX1s and a JVC HM100s, whose EX codec is pretty high quality and pretty easy on the CPU for editing. If I create a EX-based timeline so I can do quick editing with the EX1 (with the FCP rendering set to use Prores 422, that way renders are automatically transcoded to a codec easier on the CPU) then any 7D clips I drag into the timeline either need to be rendered or cannot play back realtime. If I want to eliminate the rendering issues with the 7D clips, I'll render them into whatever codec my sequence is using, in my case usually Prores of some sort or XDCAM EX.

Usually on lower powered computers, I'll get stuttering, sometimes it's acceptable, sometimes it's not.

I also have a 2 year-old MBP dual core and I get stuttering, strangely, on my weaker Mac Mini Dual 2gHz, I get less stuttering. Maybe newer MBPs with better GPUs might get less stuttering. With more movement, you'll get more stuttering, that is if the frames change greatly from one to the next, the CPU is going to need more power, that's usually when you get the stuttering. If you have successive frames without a lot of differences between them, you'll see less stuttering. If you're playing back the files in Quicktime player, to a 'command-I' and look at the 'playing FPS' rate. If it's less than a continuous 30FPS, you're getting stuttering.

Do you have access to a 4 core or 8 core Mac Pro to test out your footage? You'll be able to see if it's inherent in the clips. There are also great utilities to view your CPU usage, one that I have running all the time is a Preference pane called "Menumeters" which shows, real time, the CPU usage. On the 7D clips on my older MBP, I get pretty maxed out (95+%) CPU on both cores, which means there could be stuttering. On my 8 Core, I get about 25% while playing complex 7D clips.

I've also heard that sometimes using IS on lenses will result in a kind of jumpy motion due to the IS that isn't optimized for video recording. I haven't seen this much with my IS lenses, but the rumor is out there.

I think that in highly-compressed and complex H.264s out of camcorderswon't currently playback real time all that easily, though the 7D's version of H.264 seems a little easier on the CPU then the typical AVCHD on some camcorders. On the cards, I use a couple different ones, mostly a Kingston Elite 32GB 133x, which, while not the fastest card seems fine for video for me and is a great deal.

Good luck with it.

There is no misunderstanding. And I am giving you the advice you need. Just not the advice you want to hear. I'm sorry if that doesn't rate as "helpful". You clearly stated that the camera would not work for you if you had to transcode, and your clients would not accept doing that extra step. Well, with the 7d you ARE going to have to transcode and your clients ARE going to have to do that extra step. Therefore the 7D will not meet your needs or your criteria.

No one here is posting that they can edit 7D footage smoothly without transcoding. Playback, yes. Edit no. There is nothing wrong with your camera, other than the fact it shoots in a format that is too difficult for any of the modern machines to slug their way through. At least only on CPU power.

There are options available from third parties (not sure for Macs) that can leverage the GPU on the quadro cards to assist and make this easier. To make matters worse, you also have an outdated Mac for doing heavy HD editing work.

So to reiterate, if you need a speedy workflow because you are in a broadcast situation, you have a camera that is wholly unsuitable to the task. You can either transcode the footage, suffer through the problems you have now and learn to live with it, or purchase a camera that meets your and your clients needs. Simple as that.

It's not MY workflow that is the problem. I don't generally edit what I shoot. All I am trying to find out is why I can't playback quicktime files on several different adequately powered computers in Quicktime. I think my clients would be fine transcoding if they have to, as long as they can log the raw and just deal with the transcode on the clips they want. Having to transcode everything just to view it normally seems unreasonable when I have read others are able to do it.

And quite frankly, comments like "Ditch the 7D now" ARE unhelpful. Your advice is welcome, and will be useful to everyone else who is behind the curve like me. I don't think comments like that serve any purpose other than to bring some attitude to the thread that is unnecessary. If I'm asking dumb questions, then don't reply. Others are offering useful advice, too.

It's not MY workflow that is the problem. I don't generally edit what I shoot. All I am trying to find out is why I can't playback quicktime files on several different adequately powered computers in Quicktime. I think my clients would be fine transcoding if they have to, as long as they can log the raw and just deal with the transcode on the clips they want. Having to transcode everything just to view it normally seems unreasonable when I have read others are able to do it.

And quite frankly, comments like "Ditch the 7D now" ARE unhelpful. Your advice is welcome, and will be useful to everyone else who is behind the curve like me. I don't think comments like that serve any purpose other than to bring some attitude to the thread that is unnecessary. If I'm asking dumb questions, then don't reply. Others are offering useful advice, too.

Ok,

You cannot play back the footage because your mac is too slow. What you deem "adequately powered" seems to be mismatched. If you have a fast quadcore or an 8 core, then yes, it should play back. But I wouldn't bet on ANY dualcore being able to play this stuff back.

My comment to ditch the 7D may seem unhelpful, and for that I apologize. But that may be the most realistic advice you get here even if it was a bit sharp. You aren't asking dumb questions. You are asking the right questions, but unfortunately, you are asking them after you've already spent your money. And you clearly indicated that you did not want to pursue the primary things that would solve you issue.

I wish you the best with this, but I still think your best solution is going to be transcoding, or shooting in a different format.

Thank you Keith, for the very informative reply!
This is the kind of stuff I come here for. I am learning that this is indeed the case for editing, however at the moment on no computer am I able to playback the files in quicktime without the stuttering. I know the client is using a very powerful quad-core mac editing system, and they report seeing the stuttering. When I first viewed the quicktime clips on my MBP, (2.6Ghz dual-core) I just assumed it was playback stutter, but for that computer I was surprised since I routinely view HDV and XDEX as well as XDCam files with no issue whatsoever. The 7D is obviously a different beast, but I was hoping that at least the quicktimes would be more friendly.

All of the stuttering I have experienced is exactly as you describe, occurring more often with object moving rapidly through the frame. (in this case, traffic) I'm locked down on a tripod (this is also a b-camera for me, I'm manning an XDCam while the 7D is getting some gravy shots) I have not used IS on any lens, and in fact everything is set manually.

The idea of the flash card is curious, because I have found that coming up fairly frequently in other forums, and now the reply from Canon.

Thanks for your input, I can also pass this along to the client.

it would seem to logical to say if the transcoded files are smooth you can rest assured your camera and/or CF Card are not the issue in this case...

i would do a little more troubleshooting before reporting anything to your client, there were some good suggestions before from Keith, a few posts back..

it does seem unfortunately that the issue lies with both your and your clients system in being able to play the files in realtime..

I've also heard that sometimes using IS on lenses will result in a kind of jumpy motion due to the IS that isn't optimized for video recording. I haven't seen this much with my IS lenses, but the rumor is out there.That's a classic description of what happens when you have IS switched on when the camera is on a tripod & you do any panning. The IS system senses movement & desperately tries to mitigate the effect which works up to a point & then breaks down & desperately tries again until the movement exceeds the ability of the IS system to correct.

You cannot play back the footage because your mac is too slow. What you deem "adequately powered" seems to be mismatched. If you have a fast quadcore or an 8 core, then yes, it should play back. But I wouldn't bet on ANY dualcore being able to play this stuff back.That is simply not true. Native H.264 files straight off a 5DII card play fine on any modern Mac using QuickTime & I doubt that video off a 7D will be any different.

I just checked with my wife's 3-year old 2.16GHz white MacBook & that has no problem playing files copied straight off a 5DII CF card. I understand that Windows machines often struggle playing these native files although apparently using vlc as your player it is possible to obtain smooth playback if you tweak the settings to reduce the playback quality a little (PQ reduction is almost imperceptibly I have been told). 5D Mark II (7D) video playback | PHOTOGRAPHY WITHIN (http://www.theis.dk/blog/index.php/17/01/2009/5d-mark-ii-video-playback/)

That is simply not true. Native H.264 files straight off a 5DII card play fine on any modern Mac using QuickTime & I doubt that video off a 7D will be any different.

I just checked with my wife's 3-year old 2.16GHz white MacBook & that has no problem playing files copied straight off a 5DII CF card. I understand that Windows machines often struggle playing these native files although apparently using vlc as your player it is possible to obtain smooth playback if you tweak the settings to reduce the playback quality a little (PQ reduction is almost imperceptibly I have been told). 5D Mark II (7D) video playback | PHOTOGRAPHY WITHIN (http://www.theis.dk/blog/index.php/17/01/2009/5d-mark-ii-video-playback/)

Nigel, are you talking about playback off the OS or in the NLE? My laptop (PC based core2duo) was used for onset playback of 5D files and it did fine. BUT try to drop that into an NLE and playback and it was a NO GO.

If we are talking about the fact that Derek cannot playback the footage even from just the OS, then something is certainly wrong. I wonder if it's this way when the file is copied to the local HD if that's the case.

I also believe that I should not have had any problem viewing the native files in quicktime on a dual-core MBP.Nor should you. As I noted in another post 5DII native files play fine on a 3-year old 2.16GHz C2D MacBook so provided that your MBP has better specifications than that system you should be OK.

While I have seen a similar stutter before viewing HDV files on my old G4, this was always due to an underpowered processor, and was a playback only issue. This 7D stuff is different, and is going to make this camera unusable to me if every clip has to be transcoded just to make it work. For the most part, my clients are not going to be that interested in an extra step just to take files from this camera..... especially if it means transcoding in compressor due to the extremely long transcoding times. Time is money. (literally, when you're paying editors by the hour)Transcoding times on my 18-month old 2.8GHz Mac Pro are OK as files are converted in around real time. It's less time-consuming than ingesting HDV tapes.

wouldnt it be pretty related to how much RAM there is and not just processors?

or maybe the quicktime version?

This just keeps getting more interesting. Nigel, I agree with you... I thought I would have no problem with a 2.6GHz dual-core MBP running the latest version of Quicktime to at least view the files. This does not work, whether I play back from the card, or from the file copied to my drive. It also does not work even when I transcode using compressor to ProRes. (although it did correct the stutter slightly doing this)
My client reported that when they did a transcode (I don't know what they used yet) they were able to view it normally.

There has to be a simple answer....

Hey Derek,

I've missed a few days of discussion and hopefully I am not recovering anything that has been stated (I tried to read everything).

1. My CF card is a Sandisk Extreme III and IV. I have had great results with the 30MB/s (III) and the 45MB/s (IV). Although now all are 60MB/s, the 45MB/s was UDMA labeled. Your card isn't your problem.

2. You may see some stutter in your shots when shooting 30p and 1/30th shutter. I did this on occasion with my XL2 and other video gear for wedding videos if it was a still shot for extra light. Movement would show stutter.

3. It's true that it's really hard to play/edit H.264 on a computer, but my early 2008 MBP 2.6GHz with 4GB ram can play it. My quad-core G5 can't. I haven't tried editing the material until after I converted to ProRes.

4. What is your hard drive speed? I've asked everyone this off the bat and no one looks into it. My MBP was upgraded to a 7200rmp drive—not the 5400rpm. If the drive is a low speed, it won't keep up with the video.

Can you host a zip of a clip from the camera we can download and look at within our own systems? If I see a problem on the clip with my own proven workflow, then it was a problem with the card or the camera writing to the card. If there isn't a problem, the we can narrow it down for you.

Hi, David
Thanks for your reply. I do have a 7200rpm drive, so that's not the issue. I did shoot some new content yesterday with 60th second shutter, but the stutter still exists in playback.

I will try to get a clip uploaded.... to make things even more complicated (or, maybe this helps narrow it down?) I'm currently ingesting some EX files, and upon playback they're stuttering too! I haven't seen this before with EX files on this computer. I have a lot to ingest, so I can't really delve into it until I'm done. It does appear to only do this in full-frame playback, but the 7D files were doing it in any frame size.

It also does not explain why my client was also seeing the stuttering, even if my problem is based with my MBP.

I appreciate your input, and I'll try to get something uploaded as soon as I get my other clips ingested. I don't have a vimeo account, what is the best way to upload something here?

Nigel, are you talking about playback off the OS or in the NLE? My laptop (PC based core2duo) was used for onset playback of 5D files and it did fine. BUT try to drop that into an NLE and playback and it was a NO GO.

If we are talking about the fact that Derek cannot playback the footage even from just the OS, then something is certainly wrong. I wonder if it's this way when the file is copied to the local HD if that's the case.Yes, I did mean simple playback in QuickTime which was what I thought what was being described. After all if you just want to play the files then why would you drop them into Final Cut if you are not going to edit them. I don't have FCP on anything other than a octo-core 2.8GHz Mac Pro & on these systems the native 5DII files can be used directly in FCP for simple assembly edits & trimming without problems. For any more complex manipulation then transcoding to ProRes prior to editing is quick & simple.

Looking at CPU Utilisation when playing my sample native 5DII video file in QuickTime X it uses about 90% (of one core of the 2.8GHz octocore) & when laying the same file in FCP6 it uses 130% so I would guess that any modern Mac would have no problems with either playing the file in QuickTime Player or Final Cut.

Ah ok... I generally dropped my files into the NLE since we were looking at the waveforms and histograms. Playing it back off the OS should be no trouble whatsoever, PC or Mac.

And if Derek can't play back XDCamEX files, then there are computer related issues. That stuff is marginally more difficult than HDV. A modern Mac or PC should be able to play 3-4 streams of it easily.

Derek, what's your memory and CPU utilization when trying to play back the XDCam and 7D files? Is it off the charts?

Ah ok... I generally dropped my files into the NLE since we were looking at the waveforms and histograms. Playing it back off the OS should be no trouble whatsoever, PC or Mac.

And if Derek can't play back XDCamEX files, then there are computer related issues. That stuff is marginally more difficult than HDV. A modern Mac or PC should be able to play 3-4 streams of it easily.

Derek, what's your memory and CPU utilization when trying to play back the XDCam and 7D files? Is it off the charts?

Hi, Perrone
ironically, thanks to Nigel's post, I looked at CPU utilization in my activity monitor. (hadn't though to do that before) I'm running 130-150% while just attempting to view 7D files in Quicktime. I don't recall seeing what the memory requirement was, but nothing else was open except Firefox.

I have a 2.6GHz dual core MBP, with 4 GB ram. I did notice that my drive capacity is over 90%..... something which could certainly cause some hiccups. I need to offload some material and free up some drive space. However, this does not solve why my client was experiencing the exact same thing.... but I am waiting to hear back about exact processor speed, memory and app versions involved with their systems.
I'm traveling for the next couple of days...... but hope to have more soon. Maybe I'm zeroing in on something here?

are you shooting in 24fps or 30? I think 24 studders more.

are you shooting in 24fps or 30? I think 24 studders more.

Shooting in 30p, but this has nothing to do with the typical frame rate 'stutter' seen in 24p and to a lesser extent in 30p. That is normal.
This is more of a 3 to 5 frame drop randomly where moving objects will suddenly skip forward an alarming amount. I'm really believing this is a computer playback issue now, but have to figure out why, and more importantly why it has occurred on several different platforms.

at least I'm relatively confident now it's not my camera, and it's not being recorded this way, which is a huge relief.

nothing like a good mystery!

Hi Derek,

I had the same problem for a good while. Here's what solved it for me:

1. Update your 7D firmware to the latest version (you can dwnload it from canon.com)
2. Transcode your footage using Cineform. I use Prospect, but I heard that Neo also does the trick. You can download a free trial to see if it works for you.

Before that I also tried the CF card thingy, updated my computer to a Quad Core 3.2ghz/8Gb and nothing solved it.

Here's a clip before the solution: A day in Santa Monica on Vimeo

And one after it: A day in Cancun - 7D - MAOP on Vimeo


Hope this solves your problems.

Best!

Mauricio

[QUOTE=Perrone Ford;1469645]Ditch the 7D now. Because it's going to be a while before CPUs are fast enough to handle 7D footage on their own without a boost from a GPU or offboard processor. People have been discussing this issue with the 5D and 7D since early last year. I'm sorry you somehow missed all that before you spent your money.


Ditch the 7D now?. Wow, that's unexpected. I was coming here for advice.... Sorry I'm behind the curve on this, but that's what I thought these forums were for. To get up to speed, and get some helpful advice from others who have some to share.

Others have posted that they have no problem without transcoding. This is what I'm trying to nail down, why some have to go through this extra step, and others don't seem to have to. I also was just trying to make sure my camera is not buggered. If it's something as simple as updating my FCP, or using a different flash card.

And for the record, most of my work IS for broadcast network news, so speed is often of the essence.


Im using FFMPEG by placing a .bat file in the root folder of FFMPEG with these settings and getting great results that can be played on most any PC without any sort of lag or glitchyness.

ffmpeg -i E:\original.mov -y -vcodec libx264 -b 9000k -minrate 90000k -maxrate 9000k -aspect 16:9 -acodec libfaac -ab 128k -ar 48000 -ac 2 E:\output.mp4
pause

:: sizing -s 320x240
:: frame rate -r 30
:: Codec for h264 -vcodec libx264
:: Audio Codec -acodec libfaac -ab 128k -ar 48000 -ac 2
:: Aspect Ratio -aspect 16:9

Give it a try, works really well

Derek,
Do your clips play back smoothly on the LCD screen of your camera directly from the card? They should. If they don't I suspect something is wrong with either your CF card or the camera itself. At least this simple test can help you determine if the problem is in the 7D or in your editing setup.