Been browsing and searching in the forums here for the last few weeks and it's like being back in school - learning a lot. Been paying particular attention to the threads with Ty and the other knowledgeable folks regarding studio mic setups.

So here's the question. We just set up a small studio room for video. The room has been acoustically treated. Videos we're taping are all talking head stuff with individuals (both men and women). Up until now we had been using a Sennheiser K6 lav, but I am getting really tired of trying to remove bumps and mic brushing in post and would really like to put a mic on a boom. Was originally going to try the ME66 capsule we have, but after reading the forums though I have decided to go with either the AT4050, or the 300b/c93 setup. I also considered the Oktava and NT3 but have since ruled them out. I also considered the Schoeps but since we are doing web video primarily I am not sure the $1,500 difference in price will ultimately show. Off axis qualities will definitely matter here because the talent sometimes moves around (they are not seated).

Has anyone had some first hand experience with these mics and how they might work with various vocal qualities?

You had me right up to the line about "Off axis qualities will definitely matter because the talent sometimes moves around (they are not seated.)

Huh?

This is voiceover booth recording. If your narrator has any real experience and talent, he or she will work the mic properly - going "off mic" ONLY when the sound of being "off mic" is a necessary part of the performance.

Or are you saying that this is some bozo actor who can't "feel" the performance unless they're jiggling all over hell and back? If so, fire the actor and hire a VO professional.

Sheesh.

Yeah, OK, if you're using premium brand actors in order to sell your project, then get yourself a primo large diaphragm Neumann and a pristine pre-amp and let said Hollywood A-lister duck walk wherever they want in the booth and you'll be fine.

But if you're recording voice performances, hire someone who knows how to do the job and you won't see them move more than an inch or two off mic unless theres a REASON to do that. And that rock solid consistency of level and intonation is something you'll come to EXPECT as a part of the performance that saves you an amazing amount of time and hassle in post since you'll be getting consistent, easy to work with tracks that don't NEED another few hours of twiddling with in order to mix properly into your final.

FWIW

I am with Bill. Any pro in a VO booth should know how to work a mic so off axis response should not be a factor for you. Most studio mics specs are aimed toward highly REDUCING off axis response. My favorite studio mic is the Neumann TM103, I have owned one for about a decade, it is a great booth mic and has very good off axis rejection and is pretty inexpensive. In the case of most of us that do not have a truly soundproofed room within a room, this is a highly desirable trait.

I am partial to Neumanns, there is nothing that compares in the price range. The other mics you mention are also very good but ideally, a large studio diaphragm Neumann with a good pre-amp is the industry standard for a reason.

If you are not doing VO and the a large diaphragm studio mic would be visible on camera and you need to locate the mic farther from the talent than right in their face, there are a lot of good choices. The Sanken CS-3E is a great mic without spending a fortune, the Sennheiser MKH-60 is also excellent. The Sanken CMC641 is the industry standard, pay the money if you want the best and if you want a mic that you will probably never have to replace. With care in a studio environment, any of these mics will last basically forever.

I would take a listen to determine which mic will best suite your needs. AKG wimped out and would not loan me their mics so I discount them as far as evaluation, if they are too afraid to put their mics up against the competition, that says something to me. http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html

Dan

Thanks Dan and Bill. My bad on the original post, I was not clear. These are not actors doing voice overs. These are faculty, consultants, and authors talking about organizational strategy, marketing, etc. We will be doing filming and compositing, so need to keep keep the mic off frame. Some of these folks are energetic in their presentations, which actually helps for educational clips on topics like this, but it means they may not always be positioned perfectly underneath the mic. I don't mind dealing with some volume issues if they move a tiny bit, but if the sound changes drastically that would not be good.

I remember your thread saying that AKG would not loan you a mic Dan, their loss for sure. I almost took it off the short list based on that alone.

As much as I try to avoid that darn MCM641 it keeps coming back to hit me over the head - lol. May just have to bit the bullet and do it. Audio plays an very important role in what we do, probably even more than the video. Since everything gets stomped on for internet delivery I wasn't sure that the cost difference in the 641 was justified.

The Sanken CMC641 is the industry standard...

...that darn MCM641 it keeps coming back...

You do mean the Schoeps CMC641 don't you ?

Schoeps CMC641 Set - Schoeps - Microphones - Trew Audio (http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=385)

It's the standard indoors where a boom is less advantages, but unless you're going to train the talent or use a boom operator it may not be your best choice. It's pattern is pretty tight.

You do mean the Schoeps CMC641 don't you ?

Lol - Yep, was running out the door when I typed it in and mixed up the letters.

Been reconsidering my stand on the CMC641. Some of these faculty we work with make $25,000 to $40,000 a day. Starting to feel that the least I can do is record them with a really good mic. I am still not sure that that extra $1,500 is going to show up on a web video, however, and would love a little reassurance there. ;)

Dan is that Nuemann the TLM103? Does that have some qualities above the Schoeps, or would the Schoeps still be your number one choice?

The key to good final audio is good source audio. That's true not matter what your end product is to be. The higher the quality of your original recording the better it will survive the compression of the codec you use for the web.

The Schoeps CMC641 will give you the sound of the talent. The TLM-103 will give you a Nuemann sound with the bump they're known for and a boom from the room it there is any standing wave at all. There will be one, I guarantee it.

A good read and a useful resource:

As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html)

Been browsing and searching in the forums here for the last few weeks and it's like being back in school - learning a lot. Been paying particular attention to the threads with Ty and the other knowledgeable folks regarding studio mic setups.

So here's the question. We just set up a small studio room for video. The room has been acoustically treated. Videos we're taping are all talking head stuff with individuals (both men and women). Up until now we had been using a Sennheiser K6 lav, but I am getting really tired of trying to remove bumps and mic brushing in post and would really like to put a mic on a boom. Was originally going to try the ME66 capsule we have, but after reading the forums though I have decided to go with either the AT4050, or the 300b/c93 setup. I also considered the Oktava and NT3 but have since ruled them out. I also considered the Schoeps but since we are doing web video primarily I am not sure the $1,500 difference in price will ultimately show. Off axis qualities will definitely matter here because the talent sometimes moves around (they are not seated).

Has anyone had some first hand experience with these mics and how they might work with various vocal qualities?

I think you're getting sidetracked here. A boom mic for recording dialogue needs to be directional in order to reduce pickup of superfluous noise on the set, hence the suggestion for hypercardioids indoors and shotguns out. But that's not what you're doing here. You're in a quiet studio booth with minimal extraneous noise to contend with. A cardioid would be much more appropriate in this context - a little directional to help prevent pickup of page rustles, etc but not so directional that the talent will be going off and back on mic with normal head movements. While a lot of VO pros have favourites and may use a wide variety of mics (including hypers and shotguns) in different situations, a VO staple is the large diaphragm cardioid condenser, the aforementioned Neumann TLM103 being a prime example. A step up from that is the Neumann U87 while if that's too rich for your blood, a step down that is still perfectly capable is the Rode NT1a.

There is often confusion as to what a mic for in-studio recording is supposed to do. There are a couple of uses for a studio recording. Disregarding sound effects and Foley, speech is either supposed to be in the scene, such as dialogue replacement, or outside the scene, such as voice over and narration. If you are recording speech that has to cut into the scene, you want to use the same sort of mics (hypers or 'guns) that recorded the location dialogue so the timbre is the same and they'll intercut smoothly. But if you're recording narration, that voice is NOT part of the scene and should be distinctly different, closer and more intimate with the audience. A mic that gives a warmer, fuller sound is more appropriate for that application.

You also said you were doing a lot of talking heads and the lavs were giving you trouble with bumps and rustles. It may be that the solution to your problem lies in the mic rigging and not switching to a different type of mic. If the mic is placed on the lapel about where a boutonnière would be worn and rigged with a broadcast loop strain relief in the cable, then running the cable under the clothing, there should be few if any bumps - your talent would have to slap themselves on the chest to bump the mic - and cable noises should be virtually eliminated.

Thanks Kirk.Thought I had found most of Dan's articles but had totally missed this one somehow. I'll have a look (and listen) today. Totally agree with your G.I.G.O. statement.

Thanks too Steve, appreciate your reply. Mic rigging is something we have been doing for a few years now as a way to alleviate the noise issues. It certainly helps, but does not totally eliminate the problem. For some reason these people always seem to get testy when they have to start over because of a technical (sound or video) issue - no matter how nicely I explain it will improve the final product.

I was wondering about the hyper vs the standard cardiod decision. It's one of the reasons I was thinking the AT4050 might be a good choice - hyper if they tend to stand in one place, and cardiod if they move a bit. Of course with some of these mic's I could potentially change the capsule depending on the talent and their propensity for movement. Absolutely bang on BTW - The talent will definitely be moving their head and not speaking directly into the mic the entire time. While they may stay under the mic, if I am lucky and they actually listen to me, they will certainly not be speaking directly into it like VO work.

One thing I seem to be gathering from the replies so far is that everyone would pretty much recommend a large diaphragm mic for this type of shoot?

Appreciate all the replies so far everyone :)

For talking head work I might suggest a Sennheiser MKH 50 suspension mounted on a boom just out of frame.

All the Best!

It seems there is still a lot of confusion about what it is you are actually shooting. Most of the posts have followed the line of thinking you were doing voice-overs. Since that seems NOT to be the case, then looking at the posts that talk about a dialog mic would be in order. The Neumann TLM-103 is used a lot for voice-overs, but would suck at being a boom mic (held by an operator or stationary on a C-stand). So would the AT-4050. Now maybe you are thinking of the AT-4051 (cardioid) or AT-4053 (hypercardioid), which would be similar to the Schoeps CMC-641 mentioned.

So to recap - if you are shooting talking head interviews, then either lav mics or something like the Schoeps CMC-641 or AT_4053 would be in order. Many people run a lav to one channel and the boom to the other so you can choose later which you want to use, particularly if you get them hitting the lav with their hands or something.

Hope this helps.

Rob

Yeah Rob, definitely NOT a VO setup (sorry everyone, tried to be clear on that) we're talking a boom for interview type setup. Might do the lav plus boom, at least for the first few shoots with a new mic so I have some options at the end of the day.

...and we're back to the Schoeps I guess :D

Seriously though, sounds like some other options to look at and that the 4050 may not be as good of an option as I thought.

The 4050 is a great sounding microphone - planted in exactly the right place, which will be the wrong place if you are shooting video at the same time. Out of frame in even a head and shoulders shot, it will sound a little thin, and nowhere near as good as it should be. The same applies to the Neumanns, not by any means a classic sound, once used at a distance. I'd suggest that if they stay static enough to not go out of the frame, then most hyper-cardioids should produce the kind of sound you want - maybe even a standard cardioid just out of frame. Even simple mics, correctly positioned can sound much better than expensive ones working out of their comfort zone. Your Presidents have never sounded bad on Shure SM57s, and that's worked for years on many different voice types.

I really think you need to try some different ones and do a test - even hiring/borrowing a few could make your choice much easier. Try them out, and once you get a sound you like, then buy it. The room and the voice will be far more important - we're talking subtle differences between brands and types, the room will enhance or destroy these.

Hey Jon,

I use a AKG 300B/CK93 on a boom pole with a boom operator in a studio setting very similar to yours. My talent gets up and walks around and I have no control over it. It is part of our content so I have to work with it. The AKG has been an excellent mic for us. I have actually shot with it on cam at times and it did fairly well there considering it was on cam. On the pole it does a great job. Our content is mostly web but some makes it to DVD.

Do you have a rental house or can you borrow one from somebody for a test shoot to see what you think before you buy a mic?

Thanks!

Bill

...
One thing I seem to be gathering from the replies so far is that everyone would pretty much recommend a large diaphragm mic for this type of shoot?

Appreciate all the replies so far everyone :)

I was offering my advice regarding a large diahpram carioid thinking that you were in a voice-over announce booth kind of scenario. Now knowing differently, I'm going to back off on that and go with the others suggesting a hyper (AT4053b, AKG SE300B/CK93 or 480/CK63 ULS, Schoeps CMC641, Sennheiser MKH50 or MKH8050) on a boom. But you WILL need someone to adjust aim as the speaker moves - it won't be a set it and forget it situation if you want to garner the best results. With the mic 24 inches from the subject there's a sweet spot about 12 inches in diameter that their mouth has to stay within - if they move their head more than that, the mic has to move to follow.

Hmphh...Sanken CMC641. I didn't know that they had partnered for this latest mic. My error ;-)

And yes, agree with Steve, a large diaphragm studio condenser like the TLM103 would be a terrible boom mic for out of frame, it needs to be positioned about 8-12" from the mouth of the talent to sound good.

You can mess with the ATs or AKGs but if you want the best and to buy just once, I would buy the Schoeps too. It is an outstanding mic and is an industry standard for a reason. Also, once you buy one, you are done, there is nothing else to aspire to for a cardioid as far as I am concerned although I too like the MKH-50. It comes down between accuracy (the Schoeps) vs. impact (the Sennheiser). I always thought that the MKH-50 would be the ultimate VO mic for action movies, it sounds big, loud and exciting. The CMC641 sounds like reality and reality is not always that exciting sounding. Ah heck, buy them both, then you can use whatever the situation calls for.

Dan

Ah heck, buy them both, then you can use whatever the situation calls for.

Dan

Okay Dan, let me get you the number for my accountant, you and he can talk about my needs... lol

So both mic's sound like they would be good options. I like the idea of a little bit more lively sound like the Sennheiser might give (some of these videos can be pretty dull), but I think I would be better doing something with that in post and just getting the cleanest sound possible, which sounds like the CMC641. I have spent a lot of time and money chasing 'upgrades' in other areas of my life and learned that you often and up at the same place and have just wasted resources along the way. Once I become rich and famous (heck, I'll settle for just rich) then I can try out a few other mics for some variety. Also sounds like the Schoeps will be good for a little off-axis recording - lowering the volume, but not coloring/changing it.

Been looking for some rental places here in the SF Bay Area, but not finding any that have the different mics I would like to check out.

Good to hear more about the large diaphragm mics. Used one for some vocals and acoustic guitar once, which sounded great, but I was up close and friendly with the mic during the recording. Was not sure how it would work on a boom.

Jon, the Schoeps Dan suggested is a great mic. The only reason I didn't suggest it over the MKH50 is that it can pick up a little more handling noise in the wrong hands via boom pole transmission. The MKH50 has a little more beef in the low end similar to the VO mics mentioned earlier. But either one would be great for the type of shots you were talking about.

All the Best!

If you can afford the Schoeps or Sennheiser MKH then I would get one of those and be done with picking your primary mic as others have suggested. If you can't afford the best and must procede with recording immediately, then I can suggest the relatively new AT4021 small-diaphragm cardioid. It has very low self noise and will work well in a treated room on a fixed boom where there is some movement of the on-camera talent. Price ranges from $249 to $349 depending on where you look. Since everybody needs more than one mic, this AT won't be a waste even if you later upgrade to the best. I've been very pleased with mine and I think it represents a new performance/price point that sounds better than my AT4053a and pretty close to my AKG C480b/CK61 and CK63 (which have gone up and are closing on the $900 mark).
As always let us know how your project procedes and what can be learned from it.

Thanks Jay, and everyone else. I am going to wait for one more check to come in and then grab the Schoeps. When I have refilled the bank account then I may try playing with a couple other mic's, but it seems that everyone is in agreement that if you can do it get the Schoeps.

Spending a lot of money on equipment to upgrade the studio, so would be stupid of me to try and cut corners on such a critical element as the audio.

Now that we all understand what you're ACTUALLY trying to do - we can actually help you.

You have gyrating amatures to record - check.
They have variable voice abilities - check
You want consistent and clear voice recordings - check.

The answer is to get a microphone positioned as close as humanly possible to the human pie-hole (technical term) that remains fixed with respect to said pie-hole regardless of the movement of the speaker.

You need a simple, headworn condensor vocal mic such as the Countryman E6. I'd go for the Omni model so neither the talent or the technicians can rig it very wrong.

Cost you about $350 retail. You can use it with a modest wireless rig like the Senheiser mid range units if you must, or make it absolutely bullet proof by running it via XLR cable direct to your recorder.

You will get superb recordings of whatever the teaching bozo (yet again, a technical term) sounds like. For better or worse.

Once positioned properly, it will stay at an exact distance to the sound source making your recordings consistent and clear. The proximity to the mouth verses the room will nearly GUARATNTEE you clear speech.

Next question?

Thanks again everyone. I'll definitely let you know what I end up doing. Looks like it's between the Schoeps and the MKH50.

One last question - for studio work would I need the cut-1 on the Schoeps for any reason? This will be a fixed boom. If so then I will have to go with the MKH50 due to cost.

ya know schoeps makes a zillion mics / modules. a CMC 64 cardiod would be more forgiving in its pick up pattern if the on camera moves around a bit. it can also cover two people if they are close. its got a wider sweet spot, but the trade off is getting it closer to improve the s/n ratio. however with a treated space, this should be much less of an issue.

I'd rent both a 4 and 41 capsule, and do some tests, THEN buy. rental is cheap ;)

the sound of the mic exceptional.

Steve Oakley

Thanks for the advice Steve. I'll look around a bit more and see if someone rents the Schoeps in the SF Bay Area - so far no luck. Any advice on the cut-1? When would that be called for typically? Sorry if it's a dumb question ;)

BTW - Thanks for the tip as well Bill. It's a great suggestion - and I will recommend it for our live events. Unfortunately the Madonna concert look is not what I am looking for in these videos. Really want the mic off their bodies (and heads) if possible.

I may seat these folks to keep movement down to a minimum, but that can also make the video dull.

Okay, went with the Schoeps and an MK4 capsule. Could not find any place to rent so finally just picked the pattern that I felt best met our needs based on the specs. To be honest this mic will blow away our K6/ME66 combo so I am sure I will be very happy. Actually found a place right down the street that sold them for $300 less than BH - so that was nice.

Never heard from anyone regarding the cut-1, so I am praying I won't need it. Given the environment I think we should be okay. Anyway, I'll let everyone know how it works out.

Now, time tostart posting questions about editing, lighting, and HD workflow :)

The Cut-1 is to reduce low-frequency wind and handling noise. You can get nearly the same effect by engaging the low-cut filter on the mixer input you connect the mic to. The advantage of having the filter in the mic is that in high-noise environments it is possible for infra-sonics to cause the capsule to drive the mic's internal pre-amplifer to clipping, thus putting the cut-1 filter between them is more effective. But as you say, it doesn't sound like that's going to be your situation. You do need a good shock mount, however, even if you're putting the mic on a fixed boom - it's sensitive enough that it can still pickup vibrations such as from passing traffic or footsteps in the room traveling up the mic stand. I find the Rycote Invision mounts to be a very good solution and quite cost effective. Many users of the notoriously sensitive to handling noise CMC641 find that an Invision on a hand-held boompole reduces the vibration to such an extent that they've been able to dispense with the cut-1 even for location recording where it was needed in order to eliminate the residual handling noise making it through other types of shockmounts.

Thanks again Steve. I appreciate the explanation. That's pretty much what I thought the cut-1 would do, but I am such a neophyte at this, better to ask and be sure :)

Yeah been reading how everyone is so happy with that Invision mount. It's deceiving looking at it, would not think it would be as effective as it is. Can't judge a book by the cover and all I guess... Sounds like a good investment to replace the garbage shock mount I'm using now.

Thx again for the help everyone. Now to figure out this ex1r and some chroma key lighting issues!