OK, that's it. If I get asked to do one more free gig I think I am going to snap. 2010 will be the no-pay gig free year (as in not doing gigs for free). You volunteer to help someone out and next thing you know they keep hitting you up for more unpaid work.

People think that doing gigs for free or very cheap will "lead to something later". They are right, it leads to never ending requests to do more free/cheap work. I swear they have a hotline to find out who did what for next to nothing.

In my case I knew better and was helping someone out but it's turning into an extreme annoyance.

Not anymore. I have bills to pay and the kicker.. it takes time away from my OWN business.. Sorry I just needed to rant.

Very good rant with a very good point. 99% of the time doing a project for free will lead to nothing but disappointment and headache. Just say no to free, lol.

You know, I have been tempted to say "Well, I'll except your soul as payment", then hand them a fountain pen filled with blood and a contract. lol

Hi Denny

You also forgot to say that the freebie clients are more fussy and more demanding than the paying ones!! My attitude to the "freebie askers" is that IF I did your wedding for free, it would stalemate at the very end of the queue and probably never get done as my paying clients some first. I know I'm hard but I would rather do nothing than work my butt off making a loss...and a freebie IS a loss ... it costs you time and money and you don't get anything out of it!! Yeah right ..."we will tell all our friends how great you are so you will get tons of business" ...more correct is "You did Jen's wedding for free so how about ours???"

When I started weddings a long time ago, I did one friend and one relative (wedding present) and those were my demos to start me off. I have never done a freebie since!!!!

Stick to your resolution for 2010!

Chris

Referrals are often cited as the best form of advertising but in my experience they only work if your prices are about the same - people expect the same job for the same price as the referrer.

Initial bookings (and thus the price level) and referrals are often two years or more apart. In many cases the annual price increases are regarded as unacceptable by the referred client.

Working for free is good, because when you do it you learn that it's not good at all! :) And I agree, when you do a job for free or for the minimum of money, nothing good comes from it. We used to believe otherwise and we did many things just for forming a portfolio. We formed that portfolio, although it would have happened anyway, just not so soon, but it didn't gave us more work from the people we worked for. Only one thing also mentioned above and that was more demands. The cheaper you get, the more demanding (in a bad way) the client. If you go for free then you prepare to deal with some serious problems. And that is because if they don't pay you, they don't respect you, they always think that something cheap is either stolen or bad quality.

So, unless someone is a good friend or a fellow videographer that needs immediate assistance, common sense says no free, not for 2010 or for any other year.

Philip. I couldnt agree more.

This year we did some weddings for just £600. I know I know, but they were bookings we took 2 years prior when this was just a bit of on the side fun. We delivered our gold standard product and they loved it but now everyone they speak to they say "Yeah, it was only £600". Fantastic thinks the friend.

The only people who do well out of referrals are those who have had the same prices for the past 10 years.

We also get couples who bargain hard, tell us how many guests they have who are getting married and they will deffinatly recommend us. So this year we've been very strict, the price is what it is.

Here's my mindset with clients-both wedding and non. Actually I have said this to people mostly in the wedding side although a few corporate client have heard it too.

You either like the work or you don't. You either pay the price or not. Either way is OK just make a decision. If you don't like the work we're done, if you won't pay the price we're done. Either way is OK, just make a decision. If you want to negotiate, go buy a car or a house and make an offer, my price is my price. Either way is OK, just make a decision.

Sound harsh? Maybe, but it keeps me from doing work for no or little pay. OH but you'll get credit. Great, tell that to my creditors or wait, when I go buy grocery's, I'll tell the store, I don't have any money but I got credit on the work from the cheap bast***s who didn't want to pay. NO WAIT! I accepted the job, blame me.

JUST SAY NO!

Add me to the chorus of agreement. I'm also very aware that you need to tightly control the first project for a new client as this sets the tone in the clients mind (budget vs. end product) for all future work.

If the client is paying by the hour, they can have something exactly how they want it.

If I am doing something pro-bono (for a non-profit), what they get is what I feel they need.

Andrew

You either like the work or you don't. You either pay the price or not. Either way is OK just make a decision. If you don't like the work we're done, if you won't pay the price we're done. Either way is OK, just make a decision. If you want to negotiate, go buy a car or a house and make an offer, my price is my price. Either way is OK, just make a decision.

That's exactly how I handle it now too, but you've also got to factor in that we've got experience, a name, and have learned our lessons the hard way. Someone just starting out has none of this, thus the free/cheap work. We can tell them all we want that it's not the best road to go down because we've got perspective they don't yet, but I'm not so sure it's going to stop those just starting out from doing it.

It's much easier to stick to your guns when you've got a few years of quality work to back you up, some money in the business account to weather the storm, and a few battle scars as friendly reminders of past mistakes.

No! No! No! You people don't understand.

You can put the work on your demo reel :)

I've been caught in the same trap before and am also at the point where I have said "No more."

When you are starting out with absolutely nothing I believe it is acceptable, but you have to start charging after you have demonstrated that you can do the job, and you must let the freebie know, "This service would cost this much, but since I have nothing to show you, you get it at no charge." They have to understand the value of what they will receive, even if it is for free.

Hi Denny

You also forgot to say that the freebie clients are more fussy and more demanding than the paying ones!!
Chris

I second this, freebies and the low ballers tend to be more demanding. This is a very good thread, I for one has vowed never to deal with low ballers again. The bookings I have for 2010 pays well, I know sometimes we all need the money but after a bad experience with a low baller this year, I vowed never again.

Note: I have never done a freebie except for close relatives (they are forever grateful).

In my opinion, a product that's paid for has much more value than a freebie ever will be.
A client who pays for your product views it with more value, and will take care and cherish it much more than a product that was given to them.

The time, stress and energy put into a production can be many hours, even weeks, including money (one example is equipment that you paid for, is not cheap) all this takes it's toll.
2010 and no more free gig, is the way to go.

I think an argument can be made for startups just flat out needing material for the reel and charging nothing (or just north of that) for the service...but a line must be drawn in the sand.

Totally agree, we all started out, did some freebies to build up our portfolio. In those cases the argument's from the clients are valid.

In our experience the clients promise of more work or potential work never happens. But that is the voice of experience which the starters don't have and they will make the same mistakes we all did. Its a cycle which will never end.

There will always be someone who can film a wedding for £300 here in the UK and the couples who ask "Why are you so much more expensive"... Because we all produce the exact same product... right?

I echo Don's words. When someone says to me "I love your work but this guy will do it for £500 less". We simply tell them to use the other guy then. There's a reason we dont charge the same as the other guy.

Reminds me of an American guy I knew who used to have a job selling super-computers to the Chinese. And the inevitable clash of cultures when it came to negotiations.

They'd talk with you a bit and then go to their end of the table (or even another room) and discuss strategy/response amongst themselves before returning to talk again some more. (He never did let on to them that he could understand what they were saying in their native Chinese tongue, but I digress ...)

Inevitably, their response would be .... "We really like your computers, but we need it ... cheaper".

His response? "Sure. What part don't you want?"

The Chinese delegation really hated that.

Andrew

.... "We really like your computers, but we need it ... cheaper".

His response? "Sure. What part don't you want?"
Andrew

I laughed when I read this because I've said that to people. they say, "hey, can you do the job cheaper?" Me: "Sure, I just won't use tape so there won't be any need for editing, that'll save you a lot of money"

Some people though just don't have a sense of humor. Too bad!
O|O
\__/

Great thread.

It is tough but stick to your guns. Giving away your services or even under charging leads to burn out.

This is quite serious for small operators because if we burn out, there is nobody else to step in and take up the slack.

I see it as protecting your energy because the demanding want something for nothing types will suck the life out of you.

Our first two weddings ever were done for free. You need to start somewhere, and not only were these our first weddings but our first gigs of any kind. We honestly did not know what would come out of the camera.

But of course doing the immensely demanding job we do - one that has huge dollar, time and emotional costs (due to our emotional investment in our work) - is not an option at all.

I think it gets a tad more complicated when asked to offer a discount. If it's a Saturday in July, there is no way because that is a high demand day. But what about a Friday in March? Of course the costs are the same to us; I can't go to rent a lens and say, "It's for a Friday, can you give me a discount?" The equipment wear and tear and the editing time will be the same.

But from the couple's point of view, psychologically they expect something, and they'll be disappointed by paying full price, even if they did have the option of walking away. So consider adding something of high value to them and little cost to you rather than discounting the price. Like an additional hour or two of coverage.

Or remove elements of your service (an editing feature, raw footage) that won't adversely affect the product you deliver.

Another approach, though something I haven't done myself, is to incorporate some type of promotion within the wedding to help "get your name out" in exchange for a (slight) discount. But without being tacky if that's possible. Business cards on place settings is becoming more acceptable in my area, though I can't stand it. Name-dropping you during a speech is pretty natural and subtle. Any other ideas on this?

Have a conversation with your client about your costs and offer them the above, if anything it will lead to them having a deeper understanding of what you do, not a loss of respect.

The discount for midweek/out of season weddings stems from the venues. To us the costs are the same but to the venues weekend staff cost more to hire than week day staff (time and a half or double time here). We cant film every day as 1 day filming is 1-2 (or more) weeks of editing. But the venues discount as they want to sell the venue every day of the year.

This then means the budget brides book and expect all other vendors to offer the same discount. Which then means if we were to follow that we need to charge our peak season brides more to pay for the deficit generated by the out of season brides.

We used to offer extra hours but then realised 1 hour is an extra 2 tapes (2 cams). 2 hours of capture time and untold hours of editing the extra footage.

Where we are Winter is June/July and it's also the rainy season!!! So a bride can expect a cold damp wedding. However I have never been asked for a discount due to the fact we here consider the end of May to end of August "off season" Brides getting married in mid Winter pay exactly the same as brides in mid Summer!!

At our wedding reception venues they charge a lot less for a Sunday!! Saturday is considered premium rate but I won't change my rates..regardless of the day, I still do the same amount of work so I expect the same amount of renumeration!!! Simple as that!

I actually did a Thursday wedding last month..first time ever !!! and the bride paid normal prices and never questioned the cost or expected a discount due to the "midweek" period

Now and again I get asked to "sharpen my pencil" and like Don, I simply tell them no problem, we'll cut out filming the bridal preparation..they soon change their tune when they realise that they are not going to get the same coverage for less cost!! I might, of course, add in a little extra that the bride never asked for, as I'm at the venue and basically doing nothing...I call it a bonus but it's an "on the spur of the moment" thing and totally at my discretion...if they specifically ask me to do more than we agreed upon, they pay extra.

Chris

The mid-week discount thing isn't reasonable for me because, like Danny said, there is still the post production time which is the bulk of the production.

This may be a little off topic, but I think this anecdote is related.

A few months ago I was talking to a studio that I won't name because I'm not sure if they would want me talking about them. One potential client said that they loved the work and price, they just wanted a simply effect on their highlight reel It was something cheesy and cliche that can be seen all over the wedding videos of the early 1990s and 1980s.

I said, "Why not do it? It will take two seconds and it will get you that much closer to being fully booked. They very politely said to the client that they appreciated the interest, but feel that you're looking for something different than we're offering.

As it stands, they are fully booked for 2010 and have clients that all say the same thing -- we trust you, we know you'll do a great job. Let us know if you need anything.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that it is important to stick to your guns. It's easy to fill up the calendar with cheap weddings that come with more demands, but there are couple's out there who value your service and those are the couples that you should be waiting for.

Part of delivering a premium product is finding couples that inspire you as much as your work hopefully inspired them. It's tough to do that when you know they're getting a deal that you really shouldn't have given them.

Reminds me of a thought I have every now and then: When the client doesn't take you seriously, it's time to raise your hourly rate until they do.

Andrew

This thread is discussing a number of different things that are actually separate issues. Marketing strategies are quite a bit different from allowing one's self to be taken advantage of by some cheapskate. In the marketing area, it can sometimes be appropriate to look for a job that can be used to generate portfolio material which can be used for "show and tell" material that can be used to generate follow-on paying jobs. If not charging for it is necessary to get the job, it still can be appropriate if you wind up with marketing materials that you can use to get subsequent jobs that you are paid for. That's quite different from allowing people to take advantage of you. One key question that differentiates it is: did you seek out the opportunity for a strategic marketing purpose or did someone call you with a mooching or sad story?

Perhaps the most damaging are the low-ballers who, even though they are being paid, charge much less than the going rate. When someone accepts $400 for a job that should be $2,000, it not only hurts their earning potential for future jobs, it hurts everyone else as well because their low-ball price becomes a pricing reference point in the market.

Doing 'freebies' only devalues your work. Either your time and talent are worth something... or they aren't.

That being said, it's a wonderful thing to VOLUNTEER your services to companies or organizations who promote something you believe in or moves you.

This thread is discussing a number of different things that are actually separate issues. Marketing strategies are quite a bit different from allowing one's self to be taken advantage of by some cheapskate. In the marketing area, it can sometimes be appropriate to look for a job that can be used to generate portfolio material which can be used for "show and tell" material that can be used to generate follow-on paying jobs.

I agree, but in that case can your really call it a freebie? It;s marketing. And you are paying for it with a gig. In other words there is a mutual benefit. Something you at least consider tangible. I just don't like these one sided projects.

Take bands for example. How many of you have been asked if you could do a video but found the band has NO budget. Yet they promise to "throw you some cash when the get bigger and need another video..blah blah blah."

I always notice that the bands get paid, the sound guy gets paid yet the video guy they want shooting them play the isn't supposed to get paid?? My equipment was'nt free nor is my time worth nothing.

Here here. Two thumbs up. No freebies, ever. Its obviously not worth your time and in the end, you end up paying for these 'freebies' with loss of other possible paying clients.

funny thing is this happened to me.... booked in a semi friends wedding for next to nothing... Turn out a client rings and says wants my best package ($3200 Aussie dollars)...

So bascially i lost $3200 to do a freebie. To make it even worse the client rings after 2 weeks and says hows the video progress? I laughed and said dude, it was free its ready when its ready no sooner.... i said you ringing me to ask where the video is when you paid ZERO $$$$$$ is nothing short of dis respectful... pull your head in.... he understood and never bugged me about it again......

I say cheaper options only for immediate family.... thats it

The funny thing about the whole aspect of FREE is people's expectations..... its hilarious what they want when they are paying nothing!!!!

HOORAY for no freebies for 2010

Funny thread, just a couple weeks ago a "bride to be" here posted on Craigslist that giving free Photo/DJ/Video AND catering work would be a great opportunity because she will place our advertising and market us to her friends... all getting married soon. So she basically wanted her entire wedding free.

To Wedding vendors (http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/evg/1481835005.html)

To Wedding vendors (Philadelphia, PA)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2009-11-25, 11:23AM EST
Reply to: gigs-pdg52-1481835005@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To wedding vendors,
Are you a videographer, caterer, photographer, wedding coordinator, wedding DJ, or any other type of wedding vendor? Are you willing to provide your services in exchange for you advertisements to my guests? (e.g. your business cards given in favor bags, your wedding information on on my wedding website, slideshow at the reception, programs, facebook--(over 1500 friends with me alone) etc.). If so please respond stating what you are willing to offer and what you would like in exchange. I haven't set a specific date yet, I am still open, although I've narrowed it down to the end of next year. My wedding will not be held on a peak day (not saturday night) so it won't me much trouble for you. I am an entertainment promoter so I'm definitely a natural at promoting and sharing what I loved about a vendor to people in addition to your information on my website etc. So your name will be out there in my community (many friends/associates of mine are either engaged or in a very serious relationship).

Contact me if you are interested!
-Bride-to-Be

The last wedding I shot was at a substantial discount for a great friend in a very tight financial situation. I told him he was getting a lower price than the "family discount".

He thought I was joking when I said that I charge family members.

The "family discount" is removal of fees charged for my presence - an hourly rate. I figure I'd be at the wedding anyhow, so I shouldn't charge them for that. The other stuff - tapes, batteries, editing time, wear-and-tear, discs, cases, paper, ink, etc... - all needs to be paid for.

I informed him not to tell ANYBODY how little he paid for the video. I told him what it should have cost him, and said he could give people that figure. I think he was a little blown away by the cost, but had a better understanding of the time and effort involved in the process.

Craigslist ad actually sounds ok for someone just starting out. I've done about 8 weddings so far, and every single one of them has some relation to the first couple I did a free promo for.

Naturally the quality has increased in the three years since, but I can't tell you how valuable the word of mouth advertising has been to me.

Such a large captive market as the bride-to-be has would be valuable I think, especially to the photo/video/DJ needing to get some exposure, if perhaps not so much the caterers... If you have the time, and need the experience, a gig like that would be ideal. I would even think the client would cover expenses of tape and such.

Not that I would be interested personally in such a proposition.

Funny thread, just a couple weeks ago a "bride to be" here posted on Craigslist that giving free Photo/DJ/Video AND catering work would be a great opportunity because she will place our advertising and market us to her friends... all getting married soon. So she basically wanted her entire wedding free.

To Wedding vendors (http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/evg/1481835005.html)

To Wedding vendors (Philadelphia, PA)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2009-11-25, 11:23AM EST
Reply to: gigs-pdg52-1481835005@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To wedding vendors,
Are you a videographer, caterer, photographer, wedding coordinator, wedding DJ, or any other type of wedding vendor? Are you willing to provide your services in exchange for you advertisements to my guests? (e.g. your business cards given in favor bags, your wedding information on on my wedding website, slideshow at the reception, programs, facebook--(over 1500 friends with me alone) etc.). If so please respond stating what you are willing to offer and what you would like in exchange. I haven't set a specific date yet, I am still open, although I've narrowed it down to the end of next year. My wedding will not be held on a peak day (not saturday night) so it won't me much trouble for you. I am an entertainment promoter so I'm definitely a natural at promoting and sharing what I loved about a vendor to people in addition to your information on my website etc. So your name will be out there in my community (many friends/associates of mine are either engaged or in a very serious relationship).

Contact me if you are interested!
-Bride-to-Be


That Bride to be is nothing more than a parasite!!!!!!!! People like that disgust me!!!! she knows nobody, PERIOD!!!! If she did she would not be asking for FREE services, She obviously is not making any money in the entetainment industry if she has to post a thread like that to gain freebies by offering fictitional advertisement..... What a LEECH!!!!!

She must either be getting married in a lot of different locations OR she has a clone. I saw a post on CL the other day- same thing.

Yeah, I'll jump right in! Uh, I don't think so.

O|O
\--/

I think that if anyone does do shoot etc for free then a non-disclosure agreement regarding fees (or lack of), should be signed. It may or may not be viable to sue, say a wedding couple, but just the act of signing such an agreement makes the "free video" seem much more serious and drives home the point that this is not "normal".

An Australian designer (or maybe he's a perceptive writer) was recently asked, not for the first time, to do work for free on the vague promise of future payment. Although the putative client's language may make your maiden Aunt blush, the technique the designer employed might be relevant to this thread.

You can read the complete exchange at:

"It's like twitter. Except we charge people to use it." (http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p.html)

To wedding vendors,
Are you a videographer, caterer, photographer, wedding coordinator, wedding DJ, or any other type of wedding vendor? Are you willing to provide your services in exchange for you advertisements to my guests? (e.g. your business cards given in favor bags, your wedding information on on my wedding website, slideshow at the reception, programs, facebook--(over 1500 friends with me alone) etc.). If so please respond stating what you are willing to offer and what you would like in exchange. I haven't set a specific date yet, I am still open, although I've narrowed it down to the end of next year. My wedding will not be held on a peak day (not saturday night) so it won't me much trouble for you. I am an entertainment promoter so I'm definitely a natural at promoting and sharing what I loved about a vendor to people in addition to your information on my website etc. So your name will be out there in my community (many friends/associates of mine are either engaged or in a very serious relationship).

Contact me if you are interested!
-Bride-to-Be

haha, that totally made me laugh! (whether genuine or fake)
if she knows 1500 people, then the chances are that amongst them alone, there must surely be a wedding photographer, videographer, coordinator, DJ etc etc...so why doesn't she ask them if she's THAT cheeky ;)

If a bride asks for a discount, this is what I tell them:

I put 100% effort into every wedding I shoot and edit. But if you want a 50% discount, would it be ok if I put in just 50% of my effort for your wedding? Is that ok with you?

They suddenly see the light.

haha, that totally made me laugh! (whether genuine or fake)
if she knows 1500 people, then the chances are that amongst them alone, there must surely be a wedding photographer, videographer, coordinator, DJ etc etc...so why doesn't she ask them if she's THAT cheeky ;)

She did - they thought buying a toaster on $20 closeout was a better idea for her "gift"...

Heck, she's an "entertainment promoter," whatever that is. Tell her that she should promote your business for free because every client you book is good exposure for her. She should be glad to do it, right?