Received this email this morning - Please tell me no one seriously considers a ridiculous offer like this? (FYI their "standard fee" is $100-$250max for a finished commercial)

"Dear Filmmaker:

I’m writing to tell you about our recent Free Video Giveaway Program. This program was to end on December 31st and limited to our active filmmakers but it has been such a hit that we’ve extended it into 2010. Therefore, we wanted to give you the opportunity to take advantage of it too.

And because TurnHere likes to make things easy, the concept is simple:

1. As a participant you can offer one video profile (similar to our 60-second small business interview profile) with no upfront cost to small businesses in your area. Note: Once you’ve passed our QA and delivered your 1st project, you’ll be eligible to offer and produce as many free videos as you want (and be ready to receive other assignments from TurnHere)

2. You’ll send interested businesses to an online order form and have them put your name in the referral field so we know which filmmaker to book for the project. Once we confirm the order we’ll call you to let you know that the business is ready for the shoot. You take it from there and schedule the shoot directly with the business, then produce the video.

3. We’ll handle the usual post-delivery process and you’ll be paid the standard production fee.

If you are interested in learning more, please reply to this email and I’ll send you an invitation to our orientation webinar. This webinar is the first mandatory step to take advantage of our program (and get other TurnHere assignments). I’ll provide several dates for your convenience.

We look forward to making great videos with you!

Thank You,

Lisa

P.S. If you do not wish to receive future correspondence from TurnHere, please reply to this email with the subject line, “Opt Out”

--------------
Lisa Perry
Filmmaker Recruiter"

So, to be clear - YOU send YOUR prospects to THEIR online application so that THEY can pay YOU a pittance?!?!?

Sign me up! I was hoping to go bankrupt this year!! <tongue planted FIRMLY in cheek>

That's sounds great to me, where do I sign! :) Okay seriously, do you reckon there is anyone dumb enough to sign up?

Why not play along and tell us what else they say?

Andrew

This is pretty good.

Come join the free film giveaway. You too can work for nothing and allow others to profit from your efforts.

I know this has always been there, but the internet allows these types to do it on a mass scale and not have to personally interact with anybody. It is a slippery slope if you ask me.

Let me see - "turn"; "here": - no, these are definitely NOT the 2 words which sprang unbidden to mind when I read this.
:-)

Come join the free film giveaway. You too can work for nothing and allow others to profit from your efforts.

Which is (interestingly) pretty much the content of every "job" listing on Craigslist in my market as well...

Turn here has been around for a while... interestingly, I too got the same e-mail, which implies they've been doing this for a while.. news to me...

Sounds to me like they are trying to generate some "local" interest, which isn't as bad a marketing plan as it sounds - we're talking 60 second online "yellow page" type spots, not big commercial productions, so I suppose if one could generate ENOUGH interest to shoot/cookie-cutter edit a stack of these it might add up...

They aren't the first video marketing aggregator with a "new" idea (anyone remember SAGAS? There's another outfit that does video resumes for "executives"...). These operations have a business plan, an idea, and some startup money, along with some in house samples, and they are hoping to "franchise" the concept by paying sub-contractors peanuts to shoot locally. Problem is these "great ideas" don't scale/promote as expected, and all the "promise" turns to tumbleweeds.

Probably better off to write one's own business plan and keep the whole proceeds though, if you're good enough. I've seen this in the wedding photo and video biz (where the model supposedly works - I've heard a few still shooters very happy with just shooting and turning over the memory cards). BUT... for what they charge, I'd rather drop my rates & keep the whole thing than take thier "shoot only" or "shoot and edit" prices (roughly 1/4 or less of what they charge when booking the customer).

Here's the rub of ANY "offer" like this - if they don't deliver actual JOBS that pay, and in my experience they don't either in the short OR long run, you'll turn a lovely cool shade of blue sitting by the phone holding your breath...

These ideas might have worked in a booming economy, but one must make their own "magic" in an economy that's gone "BOOM"...

The money would be ok if all you had to do was film and mail the raw footage to them. Capture, edit and upload. lol. I'm sure they get ppl who are just starting out who need experience... Too bad it could have been nice to fill down time you inevitably have as a freelancer.

I used to do this type of work for a guy with a local tv show. For $500 we'd produce an ad for them. What made it worth my while was the volume, we'd shoot 10 of these for a week.

There is a company in my town doing this right now. CGI out of New York or somewhere over there. The city of Red Deer paid them 60k for a website "template" a video box in the middle of a bunch of ads that when you click them opens a new video box on a new page. Then they get business to pay $7500 for a 1 min commercial. They are looking for people to shoot them locally and are paying us $200 to shoot them. I said no to them. The worst part about this is local production companies had already gone to the city pitching the exact same thing for a lot less and were turned down because they didn't have a working website template. The funny thing is the city just spend a million bucks on a shop local campaign. Go figure.

I've been working for TurnHere for a while and they are legit and pay promptly. While I've had reduced hours at my day job this past year and have struggled to support my family, TurnHere work has been most welcome.

The work has mostly been Yellow Pages ads, they take 90 minutes to shoot and a couple hours to edit, then upload results and get paid. Not a bad deal once you get into the rhythm. There is a template to follow and it works. No script, no fancy graphics, just good clean shoot/edit/deliver.

Check them out if you need some extra income

Jeff

So you're doing 5 hours of work for $100?

So you're doing 5 hours of work for $100?

Thanks Ethan! More to the point.

My understanding is that the most Turnhere pays for a finished commercial is $250 (or free - LOL). So let's assume that you have $5000 tied up in gear (camera, sticks, lights, mic(s), computer, software, etc.). Though $10K would probably be more reasonable. In order to make back your investment on GEAR ALONE you have to shoot 20 (to 40) jobs.

The $250 per job doesn't begin to compensate you for your time, liability insurance (in case someone trips over your stinger and breaks an ankle or your light starts a fire), health insurance, fuel costs, vehicle maintenance (oil changes), equipment insurance, internet costs to FTP footage, equipment repair, wear and tear, etc. You would need to shoot at least another 20 jobs just to offset the above "costs of doing business."

This is NOT a sustainable "business model" and you are only empowering others to devalue your work when you sell your talent at this rate.

Why don't you guys just make a counter offer of what you feel it should pay for that amount of work? It's got to be better than a simple "no" (or silence) to TurnHere.

They may even start to see things your way.

Andrew

Why don't you guys just make a counter offer of what you feel it should pay for that amount of work? ...They may even start to see things your way.

Actually I quoted them my half day rate the last time I talked with one of their reps on the phone. They were most definitely NOT interested. Turnhere also used to qualify it's "shooters" based on demo reels or sample footage. Now they want you to work for free then they will, at their discretion, send you more low/no paying jobs. What a deal!!!

"If you work for free that's what your work is worth - nothing."

I almost got involved with this. I heard about them submitted my info, and then had to call in on a conference call the next day, and listen to noobs ask questions while some of the "veterans" checked in. Back then, the idea was you shoot for an hour (30 mins interview with small biz owner, 30 mins b-roll) then you have 48 hours to edit and upload it to their server. I don't remember how long each piece was supposed to be, when finished. . .a minute? Several? Anyway, $200 for all that.

I work in video production around Houston. I know I am fairly cheap for the market, but I'm okay with that. Even by my standards though, that rate is way low.

What if you were only to submit crappy / rushed work for that sort of money. And others were doing the same?

Sometimes I am waaay too evil. ;->

Andrew

I saw a few of their samples. They weren't half bad, for available light stuff shot quickly and edited quickly. Kinda makes me sad that folks are slaving away like that for below industry rates.

Re: The Answer Factory: Demand Media and the Fast, Disposable, and Profitable as Hell Media Model | Magazine (http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_demandmedia/3/)

Is this a related deal? Or something else entirely?

Hey guys,

As someone who has done a ton of work for TurnHere, let me give some of my perspective on this. The TurnHere videos do not pay a ton of money. They are like a $1 hamburger at McDonalds. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

If you look at it as one video where you shoot and edit for $225, it doesn't sound great. However, after reluctantly taking one edit last year, it has skyrocketed. Imagine if you do 3 in a day? Thats $675 for the day, not so bad, especially when they are simple interviews, and a hand full of B-roll, using only available light. Each video takes about an hour to shoot, and if you are organized, an hour to edit.

Furthermore, after doing these, I often get calls from these same companies asking me to do other video and design projects.

As for the free videos, the idea is the same. You offer them to local business, you shoot the simple videos and you get paid for it. When this program came out, I was the first one to make an order, (about three minutes after launch). My wife and cousin have a small candle business, and I got paid to do a video for them. I also signed up a friend who has a local newspaper, 2 friends that are photographers, 2 friends that are real estate agents. These were all people that would not have spent the cash to have me shoot normally.

The other thing about TurnHere is that they actually pay. I have NEVER had to call and see where a check is (direct deposit now). The say 30 days out, but I always seem to be paid early

In closing, yes, the price for one video may seem small, but in reality, it's about $100 per hour (minus drive time, etc.). You aren't going to be able to flex your creative muscles much, but the work is very easy, fun, and you meat new people. I have loved it.

So you're doing 5 hours of work for $100?

No, its $225 for about 2 hours work....3 hours on occasion.

So you're doing 5 hours of work for $100?

Hi Ethan,

I never said I did for for $100 (nor would I!). There seems to be a lot of preconceived notions about what the program is, according to the posts I've seen.

These are NOT big productions. You walk in with a small camcorder, wireless lav mic, and tripod, very minimal setup. No script, lighting, etc., very basic and easy to shoot. Couple hours to edit, you're done. TurnHere supplies the music library, and a lower thirds titles generator, no fancy graphics or transitions used.

Also, I am NOT trying to make a living with TurnHere, it's filler work when I'm slow, and things have been slow this year. I had a job the day after Thanksgiving, 5 minutes from home. I ran over and did the shoot in the morning, came home to a nice meal, then edited for a couple of hours and uploaded. DONE. $225 for me, on my day off. Is that so bad??

About the comments about requiring a $10k investment to do these jobs - I HAVE THE GEAR ALREADY. This is filler work for when I'm slow, my main source of work is weddings, corporate, and stage events. No one is forcing me to accept any TurnHere work. If I have time and want to make a quick couple hundred, I'll take a job.

My hours had been cut at my day job this year and video jobs are scarce, so I'll say again, TurnHere has been a BLESSING to my family to help get us by.

I understand that if your business has rent (storefront) and employees, then TurnHere jobs may not pay for you, but for students and home business videographers, it pays. I make a LOT more per hour shooting a TurnHere than I do at my day job. In fact, I make more per hour shooting for TurnHere than I do on a big wedding production that might pay $1500-2000, after considering all the hours and expenses involved with the wedding.

With weddings, I have meetings with the couple, long day of shooting, days of editing, making DVDs and packaging etc., so it could easily run 50-60 hours or more. I'd rather shoot 3-4 TurnHere jobs each week to be honest. I might actually have time to spend with my family!

So for those of you knocking the program...DON'T DO IT then. Just because it doesn't fit your business model, doesn't make it a bad thing. I just don't understand where all the animosity is coming from, from posters who don't know the details of the program and have not tried it either.

Regards,

Jeff

You are 100% correct Jeff. And like I said, they have ALWAYS paid on time, and usually early.

Re: The Answer Factory: Demand Media and the Fast, Disposable, and Profitable as Hell Media Model | Magazine (http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_demandmedia/3/)

Is this a related deal? Or something else entirely?

Something else entirely - TurnHere is primarily focused on short online yellow page video clips for businesses to use for advertising - actually a pretty good idea if integrated with the other marketing efforts of a small biz.

I've been on their list, but I think since I'm out in the middle of nowhere and hang a left, there's not much demand. Seeing a couple people doing a stack of these at a time as a sideline makes me think about going out and setting up a couple with the free promo... glad to see it's working for some, even if it's not a huge goldmine per se.

Turnhere also has an association with another company to do cookie cutter wedding video, actually got notice on one job from that, but it was a holiday gig, so had to pass.

FWIW, no animosity towards TurnHere at all, just would like to see some leads, but maybe they've hit on something with this promotion. I'm set up to do short "hit and run" shoots and edits, so for me it'd be easy extra $, and that never hurts!

It seems to me there are ton of companies popping up with this same business model (at least the fee and time structure for the videographer). I've seen two or three other places with the same idea as turnhere pop up on craigslist.


I have to admire anyone who can edit anything decent in an hour. Cause I can't.

Why don't you guys just make a counter offer of what you feel it should pay for that amount of work? It's got to be better than a simple "no" (or silence) to TurnHere.

They may even start to see things your way.

They have a business model, I doubt they are interested in changing it unless their revenue model supports it. Whether it works for a videographer probably depends on how busy you are and if there's enough "local" work available to make their business model fit for you.

Rick -
I think you're missing what the "offer" is - it's a promo where you (the video guy) go out and hit up a business, offering a "free" video (no cost to the business), turn the lead over to TH, who handles the booking and back end, and pays you the standard production fee. You're not being asked to "work for free".

This actually makes some pretty good sense - a free up front offer to get the gig (can't see a lot of businesses turning that down right now), TH pays you and makes their money on the back end. The promo gives them "feet on the ground" wherever there's an enterprising videographer with a bit of time on their hands, and the potential for that videographer to make money "giving away" free promotion to a business in a tight economy (while still getting paid).

Thinking about it, lets say you could book 3 of these at a shot (they suggest an hour shoot), get clean video and audio without need for heavy post production (shouldn't be that difficult), edit to a template (which they provide a good part of, with music and lower 3rds) to keep post time down on the 60 second finished product... might be a workable proposition. I've got a couple friends who probably could use a little free promo, if the back end costs are reasonable!

It seems to me there are ton of companies popping up with this same business model (at least the fee and time structure for the videographer). I've seen two or three other places with the same idea as turnhere pop up on craigslist.


I have to admire anyone who can edit anything decent in an hour. Cause I can't.

I think you would be surprised to find that you can. You essentially grab 60 seconds of good answers that they gave, add some b-roll, put music under it, do any tweaking (color correction, etc.), and you're done.

Thinking about it, lets say you could book 3 of these at a shot (they suggest an hour shoot), get clean video and audio without need for heavy post production (shouldn't be that difficult), edit to a template (which they provide a good part of, with music and lower 3rds) to keep post time down on the 60 second finished product... might be a workable proposition. I've got a couple friends who probably could use a little free promo, if the back end costs are reasonable!

You've got it down, Dave. That is exactly the way I do it. I already had people I knew that wanted to do some video, but couldn't afford to justify paying for it. So I give them one of these, and I still get paid. I try to book 3 at a shot, so that I am making $675 for a day. Of that $675, the only cost is gas and a tape, which I keep afterwards. If you could book every workday of the year, it would be equivalent to a $176,000/year job.

I have done some work with CGI. I take these jobs when I don't have something else going their rates are a bit lower than what I prefer but better than other offers I have received (and passed on). They make the appointments, send me the script/shot list so all I have to do is show up and shoot SD and then send them a log sheet of the shots and the tape - there is no editing. CGI pays all the expenses - tape, postage, and mileage. Most shoots are close by so I can run out and shoot it and come home to make an invoice and send the tape out the door. The time that CGI figures it would take to do the shoot is accurate and usually more than is needed. It doesn't get much easier - there is nothing fancy needed.

I'm not going to get rich with these shoots, but these little jobs fill in the down time. Plus it doesn't hurt to meet new people...

The only bad things I can say is their mileage rate is a bit low for my 1 ton van and it takes 90 days to get paid - but they always pay.

Wow, I can't get over just how far some people will go to justify this INSANE race for the bottom. When you folks decide to start doing video as a TRUE profession (your full time livelihood) like some of us, don't come around here complaining that you can't make a living at it.

If your "only costs" are gas and tape, you're not taking your business seriously. Amortized costs of capital asset purchases (like cameras, quality audio...) should factor into ANY discussion of costs.

All I know is that ofttimes, the people that are the largest proponents of free or undervalued work are the first people to post COMPLETELY NOOB questions to the forums I frequent. Perhaps it's time for some of us to start withholding the decades of years of knowledge gained from WORKING in this industry from those that seek to cut our legs out from under us.

They make the appointments, send me the script/shot list so all I have to do is show up and shoot SD and then send them a log sheet of the shots and the tape - there is no editing. CGI pays all the expenses - tape, postage, and mileage. Most shoots are close by so I can run out and shoot it and come home to make an invoice and send the tape out the door. The time that CGI figures it would take to do the shoot is accurate and usually more than is needed.

THIS is a respectful business model where the shooter is being paid for his/her time and doesn't assume any of the risk of a production, much like freelancing for a video production house.

Re: The Answer Factory: Demand Media and the Fast, Disposable, and Profitable as Hell Media Model | Magazine (http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_demandmedia/3/)

Is this a related deal? Or something else entirely?

Something else entirely - TurnHere is primarily focused on short online yellow page video clips for businesses to use for advertising - actually a pretty good idea if integrated with the other marketing efforts of a small biz.Thanks for the clarification, Dave -- much appreciated.

I recently attended TurnHere's webinar and after reviewing my sample videos they replied that my samples only showed talking heads and no b-roll, so they were not confident that I could shoot a TurnHere commercial.

I replied to them with a link to one of the videos in my sample list that was at least 50% b-roll (cut aways). Was it an actual commericial? No. It was more like 10 commercials!

I am not a professional. Although their video samples were good considering all the restraints, they were not what most would call "pro." I truly believe I can meet or beat their standards. What I question is whether they actually have enough work to go around when you live in larger cities where there are literally hundreds of qualified videographers.

They did offer to let me go out and offer their free video campaign to local businesses, and if the customer requested me, they would allow me to shoot it, edit it etc. and IF they liked it they would pay me. By the way, I don't believe the free video campaign is without a hitch....there are special conditions to it.

In all honesty, preparation time, drive time, the 1 1/2 hrs on location time that they believe is sufficient, the complete edit time (if you value quality about 2 hours), plus a possible re-edit which you have to do if they request, could for some people (like me) take more like 6 to 8 hours. Perhaps after you have done a handful of these you learn to shave off some time.

What they are offering is $200 for the complete project. For me, I believe that would realistically be about $25 an hour.

I replied to their email that I would continue to grow my portfolio shooting paid videos in my area and that I would keep my profile updated with them.

From what I have read on this forum and others, TurnHere seems to be legitimate. Probably not very desirable to most professionals, but a good way for people like me to get some experience as well as deliver a decent product.

Well, here's my take. I got a call from them and they offered me $225 to shoot a 1 minute web spot. I had nothing else going on and I accepted the assignment. It was not a big pain, they expect very simple stuff, something pretty much any 'slap it together with
a couple sequences' news shooter does two or three of every day. They pay promptly
which is more than I can say for many of my REAL clients. However, I DO think it is
below standard wages.....I did one to see what it was like and that was that. They liked
what I did and told me they would send me all the work in my area (but I of course
have the option to say NO to any of the shoots). Which hasn't been an issue cause they
haven't called me back in 6 months. I DO live in an isolated town in Alaska so that
is probably one issue. However, I got a call from another similar company (BizClip)
which was basically doing the same thing. This time however, I was booked at my
'normal' day rate for basically the next two weeks. I told them that I could not get to
their 'low pay' job for another couple weeks. They asked what day I could schedule
them in, and I gave them a day. About three days later they called and asked if
I could squeeze them in as the business owner was leaving town for vacation before
I could get to it. I politely told them that unless they could pay me 4 times what they
were offering, that it would be financially reckless on my part to take the job when
I had real, paying work. They then tried to get me to refer them to someone else. I told
them that I did not know anyone that could take a job that paid that little, on that short
of a notice.....I don't think it ever got produced, and I wonder how they looked to the
business owner as they usually tell the business owners that they have shooters
'everywhere.'

Anyways, the spot I DID do for Turnhere, I knew the people that I did the spot for and it was
one of these 'freebies' which Turnhere is now promoting. The business owner told me a few
days later that they were offered a 'risk free trial spot. So, the one thing I will say
about this, is that YOU are taking NO risk. You go out and tell the business they can
get a 'free no obligation video' produced, and then if the business goes for it, you shoot
and edit the spot. You get paid your $225. Turnhere, then has to convince the business
that after their free trial offer is up, that they should PAY to keep the spot up online.
Many times, I am imagining that the business takes the 'freebie' and then CANCELS when
they would actually have to start to PAY. So Turnhere just paid you $225 and got a
big fat ZERO out of the deal. That's what happened on the one that I did, I got my money
and the business cancelled after the freebie period was over.

All I am saying, is that there is a little bit more to this story than meets the eye.
In theory, it should be easy for a shooter to go out and sell 'free' to a business
in the current economy. And for every 'free' spot they sell, they get $225.
Turnhere meanwhile, is taking the risk that they can convince the business to
stay online, which is a much riskier proposition.....with a big reward if they do
convince them. It's the 'risk takers' who make the money.....which is why
most people who work for a TV station don't make much....even when the station
is making good money. You have to decide for yourself what is 'worth' your time
and skills. For me, I just do the same thing Turnhere does, on a local basis and
charge a good deal less than Turnhere charges the end business,.....which still nets
me a LOT more than their measly $225. I just have to buy cheap web hosting and
put together a website. I just figured that I had all the skills to do what Turnhere is
doing, so why not just cut out the middleman?

So, to be clear - YOU send YOUR prospects to THEIR online application so that THEY can pay YOU a pittance?!?!?

That is what I was thinking.... whaaaa? Rip off. It might only be worth it if THEY send you clients, not the other way around.

... I got a call from another similar company (BizClip)
which was basically doing the same thing.


I have also shot two spots for this company. The pay is terribly low (about $30-40 per hour for a full gear shooter once all the time spent is actually totaled up) but there is ZERO post production. Shoot, mail tape. Done.

Granted, I have yet to be paid for the two spots I shot for them. We shall see if they follow through.

Turnhere, Bizclip, Globetrotter, Yellow Taxi, they're EVERYWHERE, I tells ya!

Also something I keep coming across called Genius Rocket, but I think that's a different, though equally weird business model.

Note.... I have no idea if the final productions are any good from Bizclip. and since I have no control over the final edit, I told the clients that I'm just the shooter. Anything can happen in post to change the final product.

I checked out turnhere. It seems like a good way for some folks to pick up some extra cash.

Their videos are not very hard to do. The quality just has to be good enough for web use. That's pretty easy. You don't need thousands of dollars worth of gear. A $200 miniDV cam with a mic-in, $20 tripod (which can also serve as a poor man's steady-cam), a $20 lavaliere mic from Radio Shack, and a $6 mic extension, plus a tape and editing program is pretty much all you need to produce an online yellow pages video.

$30-40 per hour is pretty good pay IMO. I don't know what the actual average pay per project is. I would guess that it depends on your travel if any and if you are fast or slow. I think there's a big problem with many video people. They have the notion that they have to get paid hundreds per hour. Don't get me wrong. It's a great gig if you can get it and more power to you if you are getting it. Just because you spent more on your equipment though doesn't mean you should get more money for a job. Remember, the quality has to be good, not super great. The content and message is what the viewer is going to be focused on. They won't give two s**ts what gear you used.

Jeff

I think there's a big problem with many video people. They have the notion that they have to get paid hundreds per hour.

HEAVEN FORBID I should ask for fair remuneration for the professional skills I went to media college for ($10k on my education) and the skills I have picked up in the 30 YEARS I have been taking photos, the 22 years I have been messing with sound and the 20 some-odd years I have been playing with video cameras, professional AND consumer.

Oh, and then there's the $330k invested in gear that I've spent over the past 12 years (albeit some of that is now obsolete and/or retired) that I might want to recoup the cost of.

You're right - I should just sell my gear off, buy a $300 camcorder and shoot and edit crappy video for less than a living wage. What was I thinking?

Shaun, Couldn't have said it better myself. There are many people he in Alberta that feel the exact same way and are sticking to their guns. The problem is the ones that have been laid off and still want to work in the "industry" so they take these gigs.

OK so you spent a bunch of money. What is your point?

The turnhere videos are quick turn-out, low production cost and value commercial spots. Do you really believe that because you have an overkill of gear needed for a shoot and more experience and qualifications than needed that you are somehow worth your cost to produce a turnhere spot?

I'm not calling into question your ability to produce some great video. But I don't think your skills are what's needed for turnhere. I don't even understand your point in posting regarding this turnhere issue. No one is asking you to produce spots for turnhere or turnhere level pay. But you sure seem to be ticked and defensive about it.

By your reasoning, if I read you right, a highly skilled chef with years and years of experience who takes a job flipping burgers at McDonalds, should get paid hundreds of dollars per hour.

I'm not going to drop a challenge but I know for a turnhere spot, I can use a panasonic gs120, cheap tripod and lav mic, and produce a turnhere style and quality spot every bit as good as what you could with your $330,000 gear.

Of course if you really want to challenge me in a turnhere style yellow pages spot, I'll accept. If your gear is so great and your talent is so fantastic, the differences in the quality of our work should be very apparent.

Jeff

Actually TurnHere has a basic equipment list that's a "little" higher, although you're right that a GS120 qualifies as a "3 chipper"... <wink>. Talent beats gear anyhow. Gear depreciates and is replaced with newer and better - talent you've either got or you don't and age and experience are always helpful. Doesn't mean that technology and economics won't obsolete you TOMORROW, so good idea to keep your eyes and ears open, lest you join "the last typesetter" on display in a dusty museum.

I think the point is that they offer a basic product at a basic price (McDonalds is a good analogy), someone has to shoot and edit these, and it really doesn't require a huge investment in equipment or time, if you've got some spare time and the gear and edit chops, couldn't hurt to pick up some extra $$...

IF you're a "pro" and are shooting in that market, great, the fancy steakhouse needs someone to "cook" too... market yourself and stick to that market. We're not talking filet mignon for a quarter pounder price OR vice versa.

At least we've heard from people who have actually worked for TH, and are happy. Being in the middle of nowhere, I am not surprised TH hasn't tossed many "jobs" direction... but I'm ontheir list, and might look into trying to promote their "special" locally myself, although the "local" economy is pretty lousy.

Jeff, I'll choose to ignore the fact that your last post is blatantly aggressive toward me and borders on Internet Trollism and respond simply to a "question" you facetiously proposed - if companies like TurnHere DIDN'T exist to make money off OUR backs, the market would be forced to search out professionals (or rank amateurs for that matter...) to do the work at a price point AT LEAST equal to the sum of what TH pays PLUS what TH collects as their "percentage" and I would argue that THAT dollar figure would be a LOT less insulting and less prone to undermining the hard work of those of us who do this for a LIVING, and not just a hobby that we decide to charge "beer money" for.

I won't accept your challenge to shoot and edit a spot, nor will I call you out to "meet me at the flag pole at 3:30" like the bullies did in my Junior High School.

I wasn't bragging about my gear but until someone is willing to put REAL business practices into place (such as "right tool for the job"), they aren't running a business. I'm tired of people trying to "fool" their way around broadcast standards and I'm tired of people undermining the long term viability of my chosen PROFESSIONAL field. Would you go to a "mechanic" that only had a pair of pliers, a hammer and an all-in-one screwdriver? Probably not. I'm suggesting that no company should be looking to someone with a $300 handicam with oncamera mic to do anything promotional.

I'm proud of my back catalog of work and even prouder of the mentoring and sharing of LEARNED knowledge I have provided to many just starting out, both in terms of video production as well as running a BUSINESS that provides video production. I ask everyone to ask themselves what THEY have contributed to the community as a whole.

I am FAR from the most talented person on this forum and readily admit that. I do think however the bar has been lowered significantly in the last ten years as to who can call themselves a "videographer" in terms of OVERALL skill set.

Shaun,

I too have a have a professional education in broadcasting (mine from Specs Howard School of Broadcast Arts) I've worked in large market radio and television stations using big time gear. I've also run my own audio and video production company. I have produced hundreds of projects including TV spots, training videos, promotional videos, marketing videos, and demos. I do have examples of my work in those areas and others to support my claim. I'm sure you have samples of your work.

Your focus is in a different area than mine was. While I certainly respect your expertise and ability, I believe that when we talk about the type of video for turnhere productions and the quality (or lack of) required, your work isn't necessarliy better than mine or anyone else's simply by virtue of how much money you've spent or what kind of gear you are using.

Now if we were to have a match off for some really high tech, in-depth stuff, you would probably win hands down. But the topic of the thread is about turnhere. It shifted around a bit but the focus of my postings has stayed pretty much on topic.

You don't have to have expensive gear to produce turnhere projects. Just take a look at some of the videos on their site. $400 worth of gear will work. I know that just as sure as I know that if I drop a rock, it's going to hit the ground. Turnhere may want you to have more expensive gear, but how are they to know what you really used?

You mentioned how you are "tired of people trying to "fool" their way around broadcast standards". We are not talking about BROADCAST standards. We are talking about WEB quality standards for turnhere productions. There is a huge difference. You know that. I would not use a little cheap camera for broadcast TV production, although in some instances it will work quite sufficiently for the local cable outlet. A couple car dealers do it a lot around here.

I doubt turnhere is trying to attract video people of your caliber. But why bash them or anyone who may do work for them. They aren't competing for the same customers as you, are they?

If someone is content to work for less than you (or beer money) does that make them any less professional than you? Is there a dollar amount that is the dividing line between professional and amateur?

I think it's great that you are making a living from video. I do not. I make a living from writing, consulting, producing audio and video projects, creating and selling tutorials, and a real job in management. I live in a very rural area. If I were to rely on only one talent or capability, I would have a hard time supporting my family and lifestyle.

I don't expect to change your mind or make you see things my way. And, I will not suggest everyone jack their prices sky high to help maintain the integrity of the "video industry".

By the way, I would go to a mechanic who only had a hammer, pliers, and screwdriver IF those were the tools needed to get the job done. But if he was going to charge more because he was going to use a gold-plated hammer, pliers, and screwdriver that he spent a huge amount of money on, I'd probably tell him forget it and look for someone who could meet my needs, not have my wallet meet their needs.

Jeff

Thank you for a very complete and rational response


They aren't competing for the same customers as you, are they?

My point here is that I do believe they are. I believe that a company that introduces a "bargain basement" business model is going to create a niche market where the INITIAL handful of response MAY be of low calibre BUT folks begin to "compete" more and more to "win" market share and prove their worth, throwing more and more "free" assets at a project in a pissing contest that no one wins and we as creative and technical professionals lose by the overall value of our work being devalued.

I never set out to "win" an argument or debate - I solely set out to educate the other party of a side of the discussion that they may not be aware of or consider to the same degree that I do. And I do appreciate your virtual "olive branch".

And for the record - my CONTINUED and CONTINUAL usage of the term "professional" is not intended to stratify myself or others above any other video makers; it is solely to denote those that earn a significant portion of their living wage from video related pursuits - a very important factor to consider in any debate SOLELY because it helps to understand where someone is coming from and why preservation of a profitable business model is so important to me and my fellow "professional" video makers.

In the spirit of the season, good tidings and thank you for a good debate. Here's hoping that those entering the business, whether as full timers or as someone just testing the waters, can find some wisdom in our communal experiences.

that free video deal isn't a bad deal. I shot one spot for them, and the paperwork turned out to be a big pita. BUT, i could probably shoot 2-3 free videos per day and make more
per week at $225 a spot than I do at my salaried job. I think I shall go soliciting. My
gear is just sitting in the closet right now anyways.

Scott, since you already shot your "qualifying" free video and got paid (I hope) then they should be calling you with shoots. You are in Lexington, Kentucky which I assume would have an average customer base. They claim they have plenty of work to go around (at least they did in the webinar I attended).

I am getting ready to start pounding the streets for my 1st Free Video for TurnHere (that is free for the customer but I will get paid if TurnHere accepts it). But it was my impression that this opportunity helps to qualify you as a TurnHere shooter.

Did they tell you that you had to shoot more than 1 to qualify yourself? I thought the whole purpose was two-fold: 1 - to help promote TurnHere's special and 2 - You can use this special to help get qualified. They did tell me I would have to shoot one or two during our last phone conversation (it went up from 1 to 2).

I know at least one representative of TurnHere is aware of this thread. I won't name names, but they may or may not choose to respond and explain or clarify misconceptions.

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning and would like to know from a TurnHere Shooter who actually ended up receiving regular paid jobs. It seems to me that the shooter has to do a lot of work in order to ‘so call qualify’. Gets paid a pittance for it along a promise of future work. Anyone got more than five jobs from TurnHere?

Sure it wouldn’t be too bad if you were getting 2/3 gigs a day five days a week, but is anyone getting even close to that? I doubt it! I think they like just having shooters qualify as they can pay a pittance, sure if they are really stuck, which I’m sure they are at times then they’ll use a shooter on there list and roll with the extra cost, but how often is that?

I am getting ready to start pounding the streets for my 1st Free Video for TurnHere (that is free for the customer but I will get paid if TurnHere accepts it). But it was my impression that this opportunity helps to qualify you as a TurnHere shooter.

Tom, just so I'm clear. At best you will make $225 for your video IF Turnhere likes it and IN ADDITION you are now doing their marketing for them by pounding the pavement? Please let us know how many hours you put in getting that shoot and be sure to factor in the cost of your gear, software, etc. so we'll have an accurate indicator of what you made per hour.

I know at least one representative of TurnHere is aware of this thread. I won't name names, but they may or may not choose to respond and explain or clarify misconceptions.

I should hope so. I submit that Turnhere makes their money on the constant turnover of starry eyed videographers who mistakenly believe that if they shoot a job every day they could make a living. The reality is that the client list is finite and the need for repeat/updated videos is almost nonexistent . Additionally, Turnhere keeps your raw video and uses this stock footage to repurpose your work and create other commercials that cost them almost nothing. As Shaun has pointed out and I've learned from a long time in this business even at the low end of the spectrum this is not a sustainable way for a videographer to make a living and helps none of us in the broader video world.