Enter the 1080P Full Frame DSLR The Canon 5D and now the 7D have only been on the scene for a short while, and now video shooters everywhere are ditching their EX1s, HVX200s and even their XHA1s for the affordable full frame DSLR. Indeed, many fortunes have been made by those manufacturers of the 35mm adapter, but I’m afraid it’s all over now. Prices are falling, and it’s no secret why. (Get the rest of the story on the ikan blog).

The Death of the 35mm Adapter ikan News Blog (http://tinyurl.com/deathof35mmadptr)

Yeap. We could see that coming months ago... and it is clear that those manufacturers have to go to something supporting the DSLR now.

Great thing about being involve with the adapters, at least on the Nikon user side, all those lenses I collected adapted right to my 5D.

I wouldn't predict the end of the adapters just yet. They are still VERY useful, but prices will begin to fall to realistic price levels.

A 35mm Adapter on my EX1 can do a LOT lot of things a 5D/7D/GH1 cannot.

1. I can monitor my signals while recording in HD.
2. I have full peaking, histogram, and other focus and exposure aids.
3. I can mount Canon, Nikon, or PL mount glass.
4. I can record uncompressed HD out of the SDI port
5. I can record 16 bit audio without hacking anything
6. I can over/undercrank
7. I can shoot timelapse
8. I can record to multiple media simultaneously
9. I have built in ND.
10. I have at least 2.5 stops more latitude.
11. I can happily record for hours uninterrupted.

Clearly there is a penalty in weight, expense, and mobility for these capabilities and one must weigh which is more important for what they do.

The DSLRs are certainly coming along very quickly and bringing a lot to the game. But I think this article may be overstating things just a bit...

I think that a lot of the major DSLR issues are going to be sorted quite quickly (in the next 12 months or so).

We can expect to see a lot of the issues you mentioned Perrone being tackled, in particular compression Vs Raw issues & sound. Overcranking has already been tackled (7D & 1DS MKIV and soon the 5D), and hey my 5D does a pretty good time lapse at the moment;)

I think investment now in good third party gear like the Red Rock DSLR bundles will be worthwhile when the DSLR cameras catch up with and exceed the capabilities of the prosumer ones like the EX1. I think the 35mm adapters are great and yes with the right camera they can deliver quality that the DSLRS can only dream of but not for much longer.

Cheers

George

I think that a lot of the major DSLR issues are going to be sorted quite quickly (in the next 12 months or so).


While I agree with you that they will get sorted out, I think your timeline is VERY optimistic. I'd suspect over the next 2-4 years, not 1 year. Some of those issues aren't really that easy to solve. Like the monitoring one and sending different resolution to two different places. That may be (and likely is) a hardware change.



We can expect to see a lot of the issues you mentioned Perrone being tackled, in particular compression Vs Raw issues & sound. Overcranking has already been tackled (7D & 1DS MKIV and soon the 5D), and hey my 5D does a pretty good time lapse at the moment;)


Hey, I said NOTHING about RAW. I said uncompressed HD. BIG difference. And tell me about the over/undercrank. I didn't know the 7D did that. I am just really starting to learn about this camera.



I think investment now in good third party gear like the Red Rock DSLR bundles will be worthwhile when the DSLR cameras catch up with and exceed the capabilities of the prosumer ones like the EX1. I think the 35mm adapters are great and yes with the right camera they can deliver quality that the DSLRS can only dream of but not for much longer.

Interesting discussion, I'll chime in with a few recent experiences.

I was a perfect candidate for a 35mm adapter but ended up getting a 7D because of the low light problem. I've got a JVC GY-HD100 and it's not great in low light. I have a few short film projects coming up and I really wanted that shallow DOF but there was just no way it was going to happen because of all the low light locations. Put a Letus in front of that camera and it's gonna be gain up city. The cost and size of the rig was also a big concern - an HD100 with a letus or redrock on it looks like a bazooka, hand held would be a real pain.

I was waiting for the Letus relay lens to come out, this would keep the camera to a much more manageable size not to mention allowing in a bit more light, but it's $2699. Add $2000 - $4000 for the letus 35mm adapter and it was just getting out of my price range.

Right about the time the relay lens came out I started hearing about the 5D/7D. Started checking out some stuff on Vimeo, especially Phil Bloom and was really impressed. When I found out the 7D was around $1800 bucks with a lens I was pretty curious about this DSLR stuff.

I went to one of our cine rental houses that just got a 5D in and they were nice enough to let me try it out. I was really blown away, once you get your brain wrapped around how the camera works - and it took a lot less time than I thought it would - you see how this DSLR stuff is really exciting for low/no budget film making. I bought a 7D as soon as they became available from B&H photo. I've used it on two paying gigs so far. What I did not expect is how my clients have been reacting to the footage. They LOVE it. They just think it looks so cinematic, they don't know why it looks like it does they just love the look. In fact one client just called me for a project specifically because of my work with the 7D.

I know that these DSLR cams have issues but I think if you know the limitations and know hot to avoid or minimize them you can get some amazing looking video.

A recent anecdote. A local ad agency here in town just shot a bunch of slow motion product shots with a Panasonic Varicam and 35mm adapter (I think it was a PS technik). The footage came back with a problem, they can see the grain from the ground glass in the slowed down footage. It was not visible during the shoot but back in the edit suite it's pretty objectionable. There was some discussion that they should have shot all this with the 7D.

I think it's interesting that a $2000 dollar camera is seriously being discussed as the better option when compared to a $60,000 dollar rig.

Wow, sorry I just wrote War and Peace here - figured I would chime in with my recent experiences but my Redrock Captain Stubling just showed up so time to shoot more stuff with my 7D -:)

Interesting comments Burk. And of course quite viable.

Let's contrast that with a larger budget production group who has ample light. The deliverable is high end HD (DiscoveryHD, NatGeo, etc.) Do you shoot the 7D or EX3 with adapter and a Nanoflash at 280Mbps I-Frame? What if you are shooting local sports? Broadcast news? Documentary on location with no do-overs? What do you shoot?

I completely agree that if the 5D/7D is right for you, then it's one HECK of a tool. And frankly, I wasn't much of a believer in them until I did this recent shoot. That was the first time I could really see how to potentially work around some of the more tricky issues. But it was no panacea on set. Trying to get follow-focus on the 28mm prime was a BEAR. End the end we went without. Trying to keep the codec from failing when we had to go handheld and off the stabilizer was no joke. Having to have the focus puller work blindly wasn't the best scenario either.

Nothing insurmountable, but reading this and other forums has me really wondering if people are just reacting to the hype before really evaluating whether these cameras will work for them. Like the guy this week who was frustrated trying to find his zebras. None of the people on our crew had ever seen a 5D when we got it 2 days before filming. When we plugged in our monitor for the first AC, there was a moment of disbelief when the LCD went black. We worked around it but....

As someone who purchased an adapter right before the 5D craze swept in, I can say that I've had my second thoughts. But the fact of the matter is my EX-1 is a video camera, with all the technology to go with it. It is not a stills camera with video capabilities added on as a value-added marketing feature targeted to a discrete group of professionals (photojournalists). I think it's naive to say the V-DSLRS will one day exceed cams like the EX-1. They are two different creatures.

Cameras are tools. I can hammer a nail with a screwdriver even though it wasn't designed for it. But I don't think V-DSLRs signal the demise of the adapter anymore than the availability of podcasting will put radio stations out of business in the immediate future.

Having said that, adapters are just work-arounds that add elements to the imaging train...and that's never optimum. The VDSLRs eliminate that. But many people still prefer adding elements to a train when the terminal end (camera) is more advanced than the stills cameras. They see the cost outweighed by the benefit of having a fantastic camera to make images with versus having a hybrid camera at the terminal end.

As long as video cameras (bare) make better images than VDSLRs and have features like audio, zebra, peaking, picture profiles etc etc, people will attach adapters to them. I don't see the VDSLR exceeding the video camera because it's still photography tool. I envision a whole new class of camera.......oh, isn't that the fabled Scarlet?!?

I happened upon this blog post after my response

ProLost - ProLost Blog (http://prolost.com/) about resolution of DSLRs

I'd take an ex1 over a 7d any day of the week. 1000 lines of non moire resolution(even with an adapter on) is still hard to beat. Even before the dslr evens the playing field with the ex1, the scarlets will be out, so....

I'd take an ex1 over a 7d any day of the week.

And there is the rub. You can buy and lens 4-5 7D cams for the price of the EX1 with an adapter. In terms of superior image and pro features, yea the EX1 + adapter wins running away. But in terms of bang for the buck, assuming you aren't recording anything critical, the 7D is darn hard to beat.

For narrative film, it's the best thing going, and I'll probably pick one up. The 35mm scarlet will just cost too much for me. And I'm kinda sad about that.

I imagine you guys have probably already seen this but just in case:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eos-7d-hd/469317-shooting-skywalker-ranch-lucasfilm-5dmkii-7d.html

I haven't noticed any 35mm adapters dropping in price. Which ones?

For narrative film, it's the best thing going, and I'll probably pick one up. The 35mm scarlet will just cost too much for me. And I'm kinda sad about that.

You should be able to tell wonderful stories using the 2/3" Scarlet, although a kitted out interchangeable lens version won't be cheap compared to a DSLR.

I won't repeat that list of 2/3" feature films, not counting the TV drama.

I think the fact that a young student could pick up a used DV camera and used adapter for a few hundred bucks is tremendous (granted not a high end camera or adapter). I learned a lot about light and lenses and the whole photographic process by using these adapters.

That being said the future does seem to be in the DSLR. Hopefully soon we will see full frame at a lower price point, more frame rates to extend the slow motion capability, codecs with higher data rates for more robust images. But for now, the 7D is an amazing improvement over the quality and workflow I was able to achieve with my camcorder+adapter setup.

A huge selling feature for 35mm adapters that hasn't been mentioned is that the spining ground glass gives a wonderful texture to the picture.

I see more and more DSLR videos out there and I must say that I'm not a huge fan of the look that is coming from those cameras.

If you are wishing to get a more film-grain type look then 35mm dof adapters are for you. I'm really enjoying my M2e...I just wish that it wasn't so long attached to my EX3.

Sorry, don't buy that grain thing.... A spinning adapter has a circular grain, if any at all. And the vibration version, you run into "long grain"

Besides my 5D, I just bought the T2i, as a "B" camera. In its own right, though, it will out shoot any adapter. And for a much lower price that any decent camera /adapter rig you get into.

The market for new adaptors may be faltering, might even be moribund, however I don't people will cease to use them overnight.

Recently a short was shot on an EX1/Letus Extreme over here and I am camera assisting on a short shoot with a JVC GY-HD100/DR-100/Mini35-400 right now, which will get TV and web release.

My own pet theory on adaptors - low cost consumer video cams might go the DSLR sized single-sensor route when a sensor type becomes obsolete and can be aquired cheaply enough as overstock inventory. I doubt whether there would be enough overstock in this age of just-in-time component supply to sustain a high volume low-cost video camera run. However who knows?

There may be a new manufacturer of adaptors in a low labour cost country. The future 35mm adaptor might be almost a toy level product to go on the most basic of small chip consumer video cameras in much the same way that the Letus Mini meets the small camcorder marketplace.

Both producers have chosen the groundglass adaptor despite Canon 7Ds being accessable.

Chris,
If I may be a dissenting voice here - I own a GH1, 5D and also an SGblade combo and the grain thing is not a delusion from those of us who use adaptors. I shot this a while back and the grain is very clear to see and to me looks very film like. Each to his own though but I cannot get a similiar look out of the DSLRs. Got to Vimeo and download the original if you wish - this was shot with the nanoflash.

HDMI capture,HFS10, SGBlade, Nanoflash, Nikkor 85 mm AI on Vimeo

I think I have rabbited on about this some time in the far distant past and this is largely speculative, not proven fact.


There may be two sources of "apparent" grain structure with adaptors despite the reasoning that groundglass speed and a sensible shutter speed should rub it out of the image.

Genuine groundglass artifact.

Sensor noise.


Genuine groundglass artifact.

In certain lighting conditions, there may be tiny flashes or to borrow from night-vision speak, scintillations in the groundglass image, momentarily visible as the individual peak or "grain" moves into a position where the individual "grain" renders a pinpoint "flash".

Their intensity may not be strong but enough to change the rendition of the image that particular "grain" is conveying in that instant.

Go into Photoshop or similar. Zoom into the image until you can see individual pixels. Because of electronic trickery through the pipe from sensor to recording, each pixel may not be a faithful rendition of each camera sensor pixel. There is often more than one sensor as in 3 x CCD, 3 x CMOS or pixel shifting going on.

You will observe slight variations in the image in areas where a uniform rendition would be expected, like sides of motor vehicles, sky or walls. These variations may be observable as unevenly shaped pixel groups of a common shade or colour, in the ballpark of about 20 or so, compared to macroblocking from camera compression which may be more tidily defined as a square.

I assume these to be groundglass artifacts.


Sensor Noise.

I am informed that all sensors generate noise in the image. Just how evident it is depends on how much gain you are demanding from the sensor.

In the zoomed-in Photoshop view, sensor noise may be apparent as much smaller pixel groups.

In normal use, with 1/4", 1/3" sensor/lens combinations and their inherently deep depth-of-field, the sensor noise may be buried in the detail clutter of the subject being shot, such as leaves, grass, skin texture, wall texture, pinpoint reflections on vehicle panels,

The groundglass image rendition to the sensor contains broader and gently graduated variations of the image in areas of soft focus. Sensor noise will become more apparent in this image. This was quite apparent in the image from a PD150 and not necessarily a bad thing aesthetically. I even filtered down and gained the camera up to make it more apparent.

It is less apparent in the Z1 image and even less so in the EX1 image. The scale size of each pixel relative to the image area of HDV and HD is smaller. Gaining up with HDV and EX HD does not work due to the more aggressive compression scheme which reduces sharpness to maintain frame rate when individual image frames passed to the processor vary too much.

There. That's my pet theory on the matter.

Hi Bob - awesome explanation.

The DSLRS have an amazingly clean image and colour correcting does not introduce noise issues in my experience. The adaptors can be tricky as the grain pattern makes clean CC harder. The adaptor-less footage with the same camera also has noise in it but is not the same texture or substance. The grain is there - from the adaptor mainly. I have used first light from Cineform to CC and the ground glass speckles are clear to see. In good light this is no problem. In low light it is not good at all because the grain form the adaptor plus sensor noise exacerbates the pattern.

The DSLRs do lack some sense of depth though if you can get my meaning. yes you can get shallow DOF but is kind of like the sigma foveon images create an image with apparent depth and the canons (Bayer pattern) produce a flatter image.

The adaptor images have this impression of grain and depth that I find mimics film better IMHO.

Henry.


Interestingly, a few years back when P+S Technik marketed the Mini35 for MiniDV cams, they published a technical article on their website.

Their description used the term "non-coherent" image to describe the film rendition of an image and the Mini35 rendition of an image.

My paraphrase and probably inaccurate summary of the analogy they drew is that the non-coherent image is "as if" a film camera shoots an image in reversal film and this image is then rendered instantly viewable to the eye via the video camera.

A film camera lens conveys an image to film which once processed, is visible. The projector or telecine is a means of lighting and enlarging the image such so the eye can comfortably see it.

In both processes, film camera and groundglass adaptor there are the two basic stages.

It is this generational separation of the subject from the video camera sensor which was regarded as conveying the essence of a filmed look to the video camera image.

P+S first ventured into groundglass relay of images in making a groundglassed director's viewfinder for 35mm optics, which could be coupled to a video camera for creating instant reviewable footage of setups before film was committed. Moving the groundglass was the next step to the 35mm viewing system becoming an origination system in its own right.

Interestingly, according to some history published, I think on cinematography.net??? P+S Technik were not the first to employ this technique. It was apparently done in the UK in the late 1950s or so with tube video cameras but not progressed. Ex-ARRI P+S Technik engineers advanced the process to the next level and produced equipment to build qualities and optical standards of the film cameras they built and serviced.

The prices they needed to charge placed their 35mm adaptors out of reach of many people.

Then along came Agus Casse in Guatamala, with a sanded clear spacer disk from a CD-R retail pack, the CD-R pack itself, a lens mount taken from a secondhand SLR camera, SLR lenses, a close-up lens, a disk motor from a CD player, some adhesive and the whole low-cost alternative was started for about US$20 if failing memory serves me correctly. Agus. If you are still around, please correct me if my memory is wrong. Then some people started building commercial versions.

There was speculation at the time as to whether P+S Technik would go after them for patent infringement or maybe attempt to injunct commercially purposed origination created with infringing adaptors. Common sense seems to have prevailed and there was no litigation. If anything, before the alternative commercial groundglass devices matured to second or third generations, people probably cut their teeth on the early ones or rolled their own and then moved on to P+S products which were solid and reliable.

"Then along came Agus Casse in Guatamala, with a sanded clear spacer disk from a CD-R retail pack, the CD-R pack itself, a lens mount taken from a secondhand SLR camera, SLR lenses, a close-up lens, a disk motor from a CD player, some adhesive and the whole low-cost alternative was started for about US$20 if failing memory serves me correctly. Agus. If you are still around, please correct me if my memory is wrong. Then some people started building commercial versions."
Agus was a high school kid when he made that adapter ... good question ... where is he and what's he doing? If you google his name, you get references to adapters but nothing on him.

About two years ago (I think) there was a move afoot to make a bit of a documentary or AV reference about the alternative 35mm adaptors. I contacted Agus Casse and he was willing to do an interview or submit one. Then the Canon cameras came out and the idea seemed to fade away.

His email via here might still be functional.

I'm directing a commercial in Sydney on Wednesday and although we are taking a 5D and GH1 for the timelapse shots, we are shooting the main part of the commercial on a EX1R and Letus Ultimate for many of the reasons listed above. So for the moment I still use 35mm adaptors for TVC's but that will probably change when the Panasonic AF100 arrives.

Thought I'd chime in with my take on this.

We own a Canon XH A1 + Letus Elite rig and I have a 5D Mark II also.

I use a lot of my gear for broadcast work as well as personal projects and the company I work for won't accept footage taken on the DSLR. We're given percentages on how much footage on the DSLRs are accepted by the networks and it's currently 20% for the independents, but 'preferebly none'

I've been told that broadcasters MUCH prefer us to use HD cams with Letus's than DSLRs. Reasons are unacceptable aliasing and artefacts, moire... Rolling shutter can be another issue, although it's in the hands of the filmmaker.

My Letus rig is a pain in the ass to set up compared to my 5D rig, but in the end it's worth the effort.

Maybe the issues mentioned above will get sorted out in the near future or not, I can't say. But at least for now, 35mm adapters are most certainly not dead.

I think the 35mm adapter IS on it's way out.

Between sub-$1,000 HDSLR cameras, near-35mm sized camcorders under $10,000 from Sony, Panasonic and of course RED, by next year who would ACTUALLY be investing $2,000+ in an adapter unless they already own their camera of choice?

They are still a useful tool that exists today. You can go out and shoot with an adaptor and achieve a great result.

I shot a job recently with the letus, ex3, nanoflash. I had a 5D2 there as well, but the results were so much better from the ex3 camera that I barely used the DSLR.

As for future cameras... I am sure we will see some amazing things in the coming months - but until I can shoot with it, it is irrelevant.

Blog here on the above shoot: Blog (http://ruff.co.nz/Blog/Blog.php)

They are still a useful tool that exists today. You can go out and shoot with an adaptor and achieve a great result.

I shot a job recently with the letus, ex3, nanoflash. I had a 5D2 there as well, but the results were so much better from the ex3 camera that I barely used the DSLR.

As for future cameras... I am sure we will see some amazing things in the coming months - but until I can shoot with it, it is irrelevant.

Blog here on the above shoot: Blog (http://ruff.co.nz/Blog/Blog.php)

I have to agree with Ben here. The 35mm adapter is very useful and while great cameras are on there way ... I think these adapters will still be very useful. I have SGBlade and have used it to great effect with the ex3 and the nanoflash.

Does time fly when you are having fun? Looks like it was an enjoyable gig. Alas I am of an age where the fat would set in my joints at those temperatures.

My guess is your favourite shot is at about 00:47 on your vimeo clip.

I am wondering if you took a tumble with the camera when you were behind the tug? It says something for the robustness of the Nanoflash if you did. A disk based recorder would likely suffer a seized drive in that circumstance if the drive was running.

Thanks Bob,

Not in my best interest to take a tumble with the camera. I was doing followcam with an Arri 235 yesterday... falling over is not an option! (That blog post will be up next week).

I have great respect for your abilities and just a trace of envy. Now if I was to try on something like that, my mouth would be one front-end-loader bucket rammed in the snow.

There is this remarkable operator in the US who does pursuits through buildings on rollerblades with cameras like Sony 950 size. Seems like that is your league if you are travelling with an ARRI 235 camera.