Hi Guys

I'd really appreciate any advice on the following please especially if you have found yourself in the same predicament.

Awkward predicament here where I'm only starting my business, time is precious and cash is scarce, but I've been asked by sister of my partner to shoot their wedding video in March, with the implication I feel being that they would expect it done for free, or for a massive discount because she's family.

If I were to agree to shoot their wedding, I'd want to do it right, I couldn't settle for a 'hack' job, so as far as I'm concerned, including attending the rehearsal, the day of wedding and post production including capturing and logging in Final Cut, editing in Final Cut with paper edit reference, Motion Graphics - titles and transitions, Soundtrack Pro multi-track sound and music editing, Color contrast adjustments, color correction/grading, DVD authoring and printing stills onto DVD case and covers, it will take me the guts of 3 weeks at considerable time and expense to myself.

I would be totally happy to do the video for them - it's just that I would only able to do an excellent job on it, which takes time. I wouldn't want my name associated with a video that was rushed or had quality compromised in any way. So, I would have to charge them for my time. I'm sure I could shave some cash off the total but I fear I may be an outcast if I mention cost to her!

I think the perception with a lot of people is that a videographer can just whip out a camera for a wedding and that's the end of it, but the reality is that there is a lot of post-production work which has to be labored on - if there are any shortcuts to do postproduction faster I'm not aware of them! :o)

What do you think guys? Any advice whatsoever about how I could gently handle this would be really appreciated.

How about if you suggest that she encourages guests to take video and stills of the wedding and you offer to edit this material into a film at no cost (assuming that you want to do her a favour). That could be interesting and fun for you and her. It shows willing too.
If she wants the full works you could suggest that she goes to another professional. That would make her aware of the costs and amount of work involved too.

If I was in that situation I would happily agree to do the job for free. Of course that's on the understanding that I haven't got paid work on the day (perhaps they could cover the costs of the day so I can reserve that time = deposit.

Of course I could only complete the edit in my spare time, could take up to 12 months. Unless of course they wanted to reserve some time on the edit suite so I can devote my energies to their project.

they need to understand that you are losing money by working for free for them. That's just my opinion - I trust that the more experienced members of the community will have some sage advice on the subject - Don?

I do video/TV production. I film weddings only for close friends or family. I don't do weddings not even for friends of friends. But, that is just personal preference. Here the advice I can give you, and this is the way I do it.

When I am asked by a friend to do his/her wedding, even before accepting it, I ask first to meet with the couple. When the meeting happens I always take my agenda (time-book) with me. I ask them to share with me what is in their heads concerning the video. Listen first and take notes. Then you ask as many questions as you need to have a very clear idea of what they want and/or need.

Right in front of them I do a few calculations: Wedding rehearsal, 3 hours. Wedding day 8 hours. Then the reception, say, 5 hours... while you do this calculations you will see their eyes open bigger and bigger. Then you explain why you need 8 hours before the ceremony (I must capture every possible moment, I want to show the bride chatting nervously with her friends, parents, etc. Same with the groom, walking nervously, looking at the windows... etc... basically, capture the "before" memorable moments, then the ceremony itself and the reception.) At that moment they will notice that it is not just a 3 hour thing.

Then, you start thinking about the post-production, same way. Plan a bit about the hours it will take doing everything you mentioned in this forum.

They will realize that it is really a BIG job. 98% of the time the talk of money will come from them. That is when you can go to details about costs. Let them know how much you would charge to a client and tell them that because they are friends (or family) you will not charge that amount. Then, the "How much" question should come from them and that is when you should have a number for them.

When I shoot weddings I go to that meeting knowing that I will not charge them anything, but, I want them to know what it takes to do it right.

If the "we were expecting it to be free" comes, then you have to have an answer ready.
1. "No way" (say good bay to friendship) or
2. "Hmmm... I have a few projects in the pipe... I will be glad to give part of my free time to do it... I will be able to have it ready as a gift for your 1st anniversary." or
3. "Hmmm... would you be willing to pay for part of the time I will put into this? That way I could have it ready sooner that for your 5th anniversary"

You should end up with some money in your pocket and with a long period of waiting time to have the product ready. I hope it helps. Keep us posted, we may learn something from your experience!

Hmmm, well first off you've gotten some good stuff to think about before you jump into this gig.

Here's my take. First be careful when doing work for family or friends of family. It is expected for you to do the work gratis and while you might in fact do it free, they have to understand you do have expenses to do the job.
So IMO they need to sign a service agreement (contract to some) I will not do a job without it. Then I price it out and on the bottom line I show them the reduction I gave them (discount to some). I make sure they know exactly what I will and won't do, the hours I will be there and the fact that I am a VENDOR not a guest. I've done family weddings where my wife and kids were there as guests having a great time and I was working. There is a hugh difference. The job goes into my edit cue like any other client and get's done when it comes up on the schedule. Just like any other client.

Now having said all of that, the job is in March when you might very easily have a PAID job so you need to be careful about booking it. I'll explain in a bit. Next it seems that they EXPECT you to do it for nothing. Hmmm, be careful. What I mean is this. While you are new to the business and you need samples and experience you need to at least get you need to at least get paid your expenses. Say $100.00 AND once the job is booked it is booked. That's their day. I know there are some who will get someone else to do the job is a better job comes along (better means more money). And while we are all tempted, it is my opinion that as a boutique shop (meaning a 1 man operation) when I book a job that day is gone, off the calendar.
Regardless of who the client is or what I charge I always strive to do the best possible job, the client may not deserve it but I do.
Good luck

Some good advice there.

Another thing you may wish to bear in mind - were you invited as a guest to the wedding?
I know lots of guests take photos and video at weddings but you can't really do both - enjoy the family occasion and film it to professional standards. Believe me, been there etc.

Good point Colin. To do it professionally and to be a guest would not go together. And, following on Don's advice, he mentioned the need to have a contract, I completely agree with that. A contract (or written agreement) is not a way to show mistrust but a good way to show that you are a professional. It is done for BOTH side's peace of mind, even when the client is a family member.

Usually the whole project should also involve an invoice where Peter shows the cost of the project and the percentage discounted, even if it is 100%. Peter, that will help you on your projections. That information will be very useful two years from now when you plan your annual revenue.

And, you mentioned that you are starting your business. Use these first projects to build your resume. Clients will always ask "Can I see an example of your work?"

Peter you've been asked some pertinent points already - the most important is are you a guest or a pro? You can't be both.

If you decide to do it as a pro I think you should tell the bride and groom you'll do it for free (if that's what you want and they expect - and assuming you own all your gear so your outgoings are confined to tape) on the basis that a) you can use it as a demo b) you edit it to your discretion and c) you'll complete it when you can.

I disagree with Don here, I wouldn't rub in what they should be paying - just do it exactly the same you would for a paying client except no time specification.

The payoff is that you'll have complete control over the product, and it should be the best demo you'll ever make and in my view that's a big plus.

You have a lot of options:
As far as pay:
1. Do it for free and consider it as you/partners wedding gift.
2. Don't assume its free maybe they would rather pay someone they know and like.
3. Tell them you'll give them a great price half the going rate or whatever their budget will allow.


As far as how much you should do:
1. Do it the best you can do so you can use it in your demo real.
2. Do it really basic with little or no editing, titling etc. If your afraid of it reflecting poor on you then don't put your name on it. Some couples just want it for themselves. Hand out your business card to prospective clients at the wedding and send them your demo reel. That way you are in control of what they see.

I didn't say to rub in what they are paying nor would I or have ever done that but they do need to understand that you do have some expenses and that is what you are charging them. Even when first starting people will understand charging them say $100 or whatever to cover expenses.

Honestly, they would probably think more of you by doing that than not charging anything IF you explain it them correctly.

I'd do it for free, that will my gift to the couple sans Family member.

#1
You can simply take the amount that you would have spent on their wedding gift as a guest, and subtract that from your full price as a professional videographer. Considering only dollars and cents, they will still receive the same wedding gift, and you will still get paid your fair rate. This hard-nosed approach becomes subjective though if you consider this situation...Will you attend this wedding even if some other couple comes to you and asks to hire you at full price to film their wedding? If this person you mentioned is close enough to you that you will absolutely attend their wedding, regardless of any other job opportunities that may come your way, then any profit you make from their wedding would represent money that you would never have been able to make otherwise, and in your mind that may very well deserve a big discount in order to retain this "client." Think of it this way...if you're going to attend this wedding for sure, it's the only job in our universe that be able to take on that day, and you need to decide what discount you might be willing to offer in order to get the job versus what amount of work you'd be willing to put into the film for the monetary profit.

#2
Assume that you do this film for free. Yes you'll get a demo, but that demo will probably only be useful to you for a year or so. In one year's time, you will probably become a better videographer (as we all do) and end up with a far better demo from a fully-compensated job. So, will this demo generate enough jobs over the next year to justify the work involved?

#3
Think about who else will be expecting a special rate after this particular wedding has passed? Whose feelings will you hurt if you were to do this wedding for say 50% off, and then tell someone else close to you down the road that they had to pay full price?

Alec Moreno
http://www.1Day1ShotProductions.com

Peter,

My advice, FWIW, and based on doing several if not many of these over the years for friends and family.

Do it for free. Consider it their gift. But don't do the "Full Monty". Use one or possibly two cams - you can do a nice job on the wedding, just not over the top. Cut a killer 3-4 minute highlight reel - for them and for your demo. Give them the vows etc. And do it as fast as reasonably possible.

If you are starting out it's good practice and great karma. It's better for them to always remember the wonderful, benevolent work you did, than to have them think that you were a cad for charging 'family'. Remember, they will be showing there friends, and that is great promotional work for you. Especially if you cut a really nice 3-4 minute highlight piece, host it on Vimeo, and let them embed it in their Facebook page to show the world (make sure to throw your logo at the end).

Maybe you should just document the ceremony for them, with basic editing. When you donate your time just decide how much time and effort you are willing to donate. It's like my personal policy for loaning friends money. I only loan as much as I would be comfortable just giving to them. Then there's not a need to worry about being taken advantage of. If you wind up feeling resentment, it's just not worth it.

Pete, I've been in your position as well and I offered my services for free. I was also at the beginning of my carrier but my folks when asking me they stated clear they want to pay. They left the decision up to me how much and if to charge them. I did it for free. We also signed the contract and went though all details of the day. It also helped them a lot with planning. They got complete package but it took 12 months to deliver it.

A wedding video does not have to be a huge production. You do need a wireless mic. If you can sit a second cam on a tripod it will make the edit a lot easier. But you can do it with one cam. You don't need fancy graphics or a lot of audio or color processing.

An hour of shooting and a half day to edit and encode.

The wedding video will have a raw feel compared to many, but the work of an aspiring pro is still going to be worlds away from an amateur home movie. That is what they are asking for.

The "it has to be perfect" imperative is yours, not theirs. Working for 20 hours on the shoot and 3 weeks on the edit is likely going to embarrass the couple.


If you want to take a lot longer over the shoot or the edit to get something for your reel, then let them know that's what you are doing.

I pretty much say "no" to all requests like this. I explain that what they're asking for will take at least 40 hours of work. Once they hear that, they understand why I can't do it free.

I'm on a few committees for the chamber of commerce and such. Since I'm on the committee the subject of doing a video for this event/that fundraiser/etc. always comes up. Somebody says "Oh, Chris can whip that out in five minutes!" I just calmly reply "No, if I do it I want to do it right and that will take three days..."

I say yes/maybe to just about every request I get from close friends or any charitable cause that I'm connected to in any way. But I never commit until a week or less out.

I turn up five minutes before the event, shoot with one cam and use whatever audio I can easily obtain. A quick edit with simple titles - bada bing bada bong.

Things go wrong - sure, but not that often, and the consequences are not worth worrying about.

I would never dream of turning up at a paid gig at the last minute with only 1 camera.

I really like Don's idea of a full price contract with a discount - it shows them the bargain they're getting.

The first 3 weddings I did for free to get some runs on the board but from day 1 I have never contemplated producing work that is not my best.

"gee that wedding video is pretty average - who did it?"
" a relative did it for free - he's a professional videographer"
"we'll it was worth every penny - I wouldn't hire him"

or

"gee thats a terrific video - who did it?"
"a relative did it for free - he's a professional - normally charges $2000"
"wow - he must be good "

While wedding video's are not seen by a wide audience, those that do might well be potential customers. Every guest at the ceremony/reception could be a potential customer.

The work you do on the day, how you look & act is a form of marketing. The bridesmaids & family who watch the finish product are potential customers.

I'm not that good or that busy or that experienced that I can afford to push out 2nd quality product.

"gee that wedding video is pretty average - who did it?"
"a relative did it for free - he's a professional videographer"
"we'll it was worth every penny - I wouldn't hire him"

Paul, I read this and almost spit out my coffee. Really good!

I learned a long time ago that if you don't place a value on your product people believe it is worth just that. A very very wealthy man taught me a long time ago, that even if you give the product away you have to, HAVE TO, let people know what the value of the product is AND taking 1 step further, you MUST give them a legitmate reason for giving them the price you are giving them. IOW "I'm doing this for you at NO Charge (never free but No Charge) because I'm just getting started in the business and need footage for my reel. I'm sure you've done some shopping around and know the average cost of professional video in this area is $(whatever it is) so I'd appreciate it if you didn't mention our special deal to anyone." (Big smile)

Well put Don!

It's also respectful to OTHERS in business (which is good in the long run) not to lowball or give away your product/service willy nilly... neither you or they will be in business long if you don't fairly value what you offer. You'll both end up working at Wal-Mart...

Not saying that offering a "business startup special" isn't good to get some demos/samples and track record under your belt, but keep in mind it's a special limited time offer!

When shooting for friends/relatives it can potentially be awkward, but if they like YOUR work, and would be hiring someone anyway, they shouldn't be too offended if you tell them your going rates and then offer a deal, because they are special to you!

Some of you guys are pretty harsh on your families. Why don't you send them a 1099 for the cancellation of debt income too? Just kidding.

It should be a freebie. The few times I have done this the family offered money, if not the B&G, because this isn't just for the B&G, but for the family too. And when the family offers money, I feel it's okay to accept a moderate amount. That way everyone feels okay about the event. If no one offers money, that's okay too, although it's never happened, but I was once paid in little neck clams (Eastern Shore VA Family).

Edit: Of course I understand there are times we have to just say no. If the family is not close enough to you to clearly make it a freebie, I would probably go with no. And there are times where you have to take control, like a brother who says he dosent want a video, so you have to source, haggle and pay for the videographer yourself.

Some of you guys are pretty harsh on your families. Why don't you send them a 1099 for the cancellation of debt income too? Just kidding.

Do you feel comfortable saying "Hey Uncle Lawyer, would you mind going over my incorporation paperwork for free at the family reunion? Hey Cousin Doctor, my spleen's been acting up - can you check it out at no charge this Christmas?"

I find it amusing that people have no trouble asking for some services at no charge, but wouldn't imagine asking for others. I guess that must say something about the perceived value of the service.

No Chris, the part of it that's serious (and Jeff did say he was kidding) is that many people make wedding videos as a hobby that pays money. As a pro I abhor it but it's a fact all the same.

There are "favors" and there are favors... If someone wants me to grab a candid shot or even a few, no big deal... a full production... BIG deal.

I've got a camera of some sort with me most of the time, just in case. Might get something good, might not even get it out. Not likely to have a tripod or stabilizer gear...

If I'm at an event to shoot? Multiple cams, multiple tripods, stabilizer of some sort, multiple redundant backup equipment, and I'm going to dang sure to get something as interesting and high quality as possible, so I don't gag in the edit. Editing of course adds MORE time, if it's not a "trim and post to YouTube" scenario.

Just like I might ask a relative for a bit of "free advice" if it wasn't much time (like a few minutes at most), if it got complex, I'd expect to go in like any other client and pay.

The challenge is that many people just don't have the slightest idea of what goes into a proper production - I too once thought of it as "you've got a camera..." THEN I started trying to use one seriously...

There's a wide range of video quality out there - do you want to be "uncle Bob", or Stillmotion? Likely somewhere in between, hopefully closer to the latter. I think this is why the OP had the quandry, and where an honest talk with the "client/family/friend" is appropriate so that everyone is comfortable with the end result, both financially and in deliverable product. Even if you get paid in clams (yummmmmm...)!

No Chris, the part of it that's serious (and Jeff did say he was kidding) is that many people make wedding videos as a hobby that pays money. As a pro I abhor it but it's a fact all the same.That's probably what gets my hackles up - that people consider my profession to be a hobby. I don't shoot weddings at all anymore, so if they keep pressing the issue, my final "out" is saying "Sorry, I simply don't do weddings."

Do you feel comfortable saying "Hey Uncle Lawyer, would you mind going over my incorporation paperwork for free at the family reunion? Hey Cousin Doctor, my spleen's been acting up - can you check it out at no charge this Christmas?"

I find it amusing that people have no trouble asking for some services at no charge, but wouldn't imagine asking for others. I guess that must say something about the perceived value of the service.

Although it would be done at their place of business, I would expect professionals in the family to take care of me gratis without thinking about it twice for the above scenarios.

Like I said in the earlier post, there are times you just have to say no.

Believe me I know the value and pain of the service, I have three events that all need editing and getting out ASAP.

Jeff, I agree with you. And I would expect professionals in my family to help me for free as well.

But (there's always a but), there's no way I would approach a family member and ask for what is essentially 40-50 hours of work for free. Try that on your lawyer uncle.

Still, people have no problem asking me if I'll shoot their wedding or other events for nothing. I mean, it's no big deal, right?

They have no clue how much time it takes! Ask them if they would give a $3000 wedding gift to a cousin or somebody, and see what reaction you get.

I've done weddings for family members for free if they are close enough that I want to give them that amount of time. But it's rare.

The only wedding we would shoot for free would be either mine or Julie's siblings. Vito is right, a £2000 wedding gift for cousin/freind is an awful lot. If I had the spare time then maybe, but most people spend £50 on a wedding gift and an hour down the shops buying it. Not £2000 and 3 weeks.

I would treat it like any other buisness transaction. By all means discount, cost price but have a contract, have an agreement. The last thing you want is for payment time to arrive and they give you half of what you expected or nothing at all because they 'assumed'.

I think this will answer all questions:

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail205.html

ahh, so funny, yet so spot on...

Hi Guys

I'd really appreciate any advice on the following please especially if you have found yourself in the same predicament.

Awkward predicament here where I'm only starting my business, time is precious and cash is scarce, but I've been asked by sister of my partner to shoot their wedding video in March, with the implication I feel being that they would expect it done for free, or for a massive discount because she's family.

If I were to agree to shoot their wedding, I'd want to do it right, I couldn't settle for a 'hack' job, so as far as I'm concerned, including attending the rehearsal, the day of wedding and post production including capturing and logging in Final Cut, editing in Final Cut with paper edit reference, Motion Graphics - titles and transitions, Soundtrack Pro multi-track sound and music editing, Color contrast adjustments, color correction/grading, DVD authoring and printing stills onto DVD case and covers, it will take me the guts of 3 weeks at considerable time and expense to myself.

I would be totally happy to do the video for them - it's just that I would only able to do an excellent job on it, which takes time. I wouldn't want my name associated with a video that was rushed or had quality compromised in any way. So, I would have to charge them for my time. I'm sure I could shave some cash off the total but I fear I may be an outcast if I mention cost to her!

I think the perception with a lot of people is that a videographer can just whip out a camera for a wedding and that's the end of it, but the reality is that there is a lot of post-production work which has to be labored on - if there are any shortcuts to do postproduction faster I'm not aware of them! :o)

What do you think guys? Any advice whatsoever about how I could gently handle this would be really appreciated.

If you're just starting out and need the portfolio piece I would suggest that she cover your hard costs and in exchange you will do a highlights trailer. I beg you not to commit to a full film or you'll regret it! :) If she's not a blood relative, then I wouldn't offer to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars out of your own pocket just because you need a piece to promote yourself. She should be happy to pay your expenses, to me - that sounds like an amazing deal.

Hope that helps,
Bruce

Thanks for all the great advice guys. I will keep it all in mind for future 'favors' asked by family members.

As it turns out, the wedding date was put back and now falls on my 33rd birthday in August! So I think I've got a 'get out of jail' on that one! They all know I like to take a drink (or several) on my birthday, so luckily it hasn't been mentioned since.

Her father required a little bit of video work done today (just took a couple of hours) so I was very happy to do that for him...also makes me look like less of a 'scrooge' hopefully!

Thanks again for all your valuable, excellent feedback.

Peter

My simple rule of thumb in life is no monetary transaction of any sort with family and friends.

Personally, I think it's good to keep the two separate to avoid unnecessary consequences.

Peter, my advice is not to do it. I have been exactly the same situation with a cousin. We ended up having some bad blood. Due to chinese culture, I was unable to raise the topic of some form of payment. I was expecting a token sum in which I would be happy to return some of it as a wedding gift but the final amount should be left to my perogative IMHO.

However it turned out that she expected it for almost free. I even did a pre wedding shoot with SDE and documentary edit for the actual wedding. It took me 4 weeks to do and we ended up with some unhappiness as the photographer (another relative) also had the same problem.

Peter,

Since you are just starting, Id suggest you do it for free. If its gonna cost you extra out of your pocket, (for example buying props and renting equipment. Kindly asked them if they are willing to cover the cost for you. Big chance they will agree, coz this is fair. I dont think they would even argue with you why they will pay for you gas, props, or your rentals.

If they dont, then still do it.

You want to build up a good porfolio, and it means having a capital. If there is a videographer here that have charged their first client their current full price now, I salute them.

If your next client asks you : How many weddings have you done?
Wouldnt doing your relatives be a plus to your resume?

Im a newbie too, and Ive done a wedding for a friend and they agreed to cover the extra cost around ~60. But hey, it opened a lot of doors and opportunities.

just my little advice.

My advice is to do it for free if necessary but shoot it like an in-camera edit, and just clean it up in post-production with no more than a day's worth of labor. Let them understand that time is money and that two days of free labor is more than a worthy gift to them. If they don't like it, they can book my basic package for $1195. :) Somehow, I think they'll go for "free". Good Luck.