I'm just curious if some type of lossless compression like BitJazz, Lagarith, Huff YUV, FFV1, MSU or even some type of lossless compressed image sequence(exr/tiff with lzw/zip compression) has ever been thought for the "uncompressed" option on the Flash XDR? It would keeps the data rate down when writing to Compactflash without having to resort to using striped cards.

I don't even know if this can be done in the hardware so the question may be moot. I'm just throwing stuff out there. With Kona cards for example I use Sheervideo Bitjazz instead of uncompressed since it gets 2.5x compression so I get more streams with my raid with zero image loss.

BitJazz: Products: SheerVideo (http://www.bitjazz.com/en/products/sheervideo/)


-deke

Hi Friends:
A few years back Matrox published a rather famous and definitive early work on lossless conmpression circa 1998. At the time Matrox's Digi-Suite was paralelling DPS's Perception & Perception RT real time dual stream editor as the only affordable PC based realtime hardware accelerated NLE boardset and proprietary software bundle. These systems were based on NT 4.0 with service pack 3 or higher. I think you had to have 128 MB of RAM and a Intel Pentium II 233 Mhz CPU.

Matrox DigiSuite LX (http://digitalcontentproducer.com/mag/video_matrox_digisuite_lx/)
http://www.avid.com/resources/whitepapers/DNxHD.pdf

I'm looking for that darn Matrox whte paper on the subject. I'll post it here in this thread if I can find my archived copy of it. Avid's DNxHD codec is designed as a mathmatically lossless codec. I wish the XDR recorded in DNxHD as *an additional available codec* along with the excellent Sony encoding engine used. BTW, it's free to use and Avid will let you use it. They have an SDK for it.

Avid's DNxHD codec is designed as a mathmatically lossless codec. I wish the XDR recorded in DNxHD as *an additional available codec* along with the excellent Sony encoding engine used. BTW, it's free to use and Avid will let you use it. They have an SDK for it.Unfortunately DNxHD is not lossless, it is "perceptually lossless" which is not the same thing. Very similar to Prores. With a little DI & compositing, I can easily break both Prores and DNxHD over uncompressed.

The trouble I have with both DNxHD and Prores is they are limited to certain hardware and operating systems and they aren't really lossless. The codecs I listed above are not hardware/software/os dependent and can be used by anyone (like mpeg). Even better with Bitjazz, which is why I brought it up is all your editing software can read it native, capture with it, works in both avi and quicktime mov, the price isn't very high and the read only codec is free (write codec is only $150 and goes down in price when you buy more then one).

Hi Deke:
Matrox has one which is mathematically lossless but it may also be proprietary.

Mark,I'm not sure which Matrox codec you're referring to. I'm an Axio user. Matrox's codecs that I know are rendering codecs not acquisition codecs: mpeg iFrame (that's adjustable bit rate) and uncompressed (8 and 10 bit).

David
AllinOneFilms.com

I am trying Sheer but my need is not capturing because I capture directly with the camera. It could be usefull afterwards (archiving or switching from MAC to PC) but can't get it to work properly.

I render my XDCAM MOV file in Sheer 10 bit. Works but..

1) Can't get the presets in Premiere so (I think is for this) it goes slower than my original MOV
2) There is no batch feature. Would be usefull to convert all shot footage.

Maybe I am missing something

Mark,I'm not sure which Matrox codec you're referring to. I'm an Axio user. Matrox's codecs that I know are rendering codecs not acquisition codecs: mpeg iFrame (that's adjustable bit rate) and uncompressed (8 and 10 bit).

David
AllinOneFilms.comHi David: Yeah, I'm not either now. (??) This goes back to the early Matrox Digi-Suite and their (Matrox) claim that their compression was mathematically lossless. There was quite a debate at the time over this claim I remember.

There are numerous lossless codecs out there. You can use lagarith (my personal fav), huffyuv, lossless jpeg or jpeg2k, DPX, EXR, Targa, etc. Just depends on the need and application.

Avid's DNxHD at 10-bit is usually good enough for my video work though. But I don't do VFX.

I think some of you guys are missing my original point. It was asking if the Flash XDR could do some type of lossless compression in hardware so we could use currently existing cards without having to resort to striping multiple cards together to get the speed.

Uncompressed 422 for 1080p is beyond what even the Sandisk Extreme Pro does:

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 95 MB per/sec
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 127 MB per/sec

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 99 MB per/sec
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 132 MB per/sec

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 119 MB per/sec
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 158 MB per/sec

Hey Deke:
I would like to see the Flash XDR have the choice to stripe 2 or 4 cards together. 2 x 90 MBps sandisk Extreme cards should give you enough sustained throughput to meet the specifications you listed. 4 x 90 MBps sandisk Extreme cards would certainly give you the sustained throughput to meet your stated criteria. I say Raid card number choice makes it a litlle more economical for me.

Right.... but how do you then remove the cf cards from the flash xdr read the stripe on your windows/mac box so it will recognize it properly? I don't even know of any usb devices that let you do this. It just sounds very prone to screw ups when you in the field recording and either you mix up the pairs/quads or misplace a card.

The only solutions I've seen are very clunky. One is a pci-express card that goes inside your machine that fits 2-4 cards. The other is a SSD box with a esata port on the back. Especially for in the field, the esata enclosure seems like option that will lead to the least amount of problems (wish it had 4 slots). The last thing I want to do is have to carry a full size pc in the field and then have to open up the inside of it just to swap out CF cards.

Card Reader (http://www.lycom.com.tw/Boot%20Reader.htm)
Internal Micro SATA UDD from Addonics (http://addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/msuddus.asp)
CR2T - Compact Flash CF to 2.5? SATA Spanning / Mirroring Enclosure (http://www.sansdigital.com/compact-flash-storage/cr2t.html)

Do you know of any quad compact flash usb readers because that would be cool?

In this case, you would have to play out of the XDR via the HDSDI into a capture.

Come on, we can't have EVERYTHING (in spite of CD's efforts).

No, we sure can't have everything.

I am going to try to see if I can finagle my way into a Nanoflash next fiscal or if not, the year after that. My requests for these units have remained constant, and CD has hit on nearly all of them.

The only one's I'd still really like to see are:

1. A Wavelet codec.
2. 10-bit log recording
3. The ability to mirror the slots on the Nanoflash

The first would increase storage efficiency. The second would allow the units to play on even footing with Wafian (sans the monitoring capability). The third would alleviate MANY fears for those recording live events.

Frankly, I see this unit as becoming an industry standard, if not as a primary recorder, then as an instant field backup for high-end productions. The guys on the steadicams, can't tie into a Codex or S.Two. This gives them a way to get high quality footage in a tiny package. Put the unit in a backpack or on a belt clip, and go to town.

Best product of 2009 in my opinion.

Right.... but how do you then remove the cf cards from the flash xdr read the stripe on your windows/mac box so it will recognize it properly? I don't even know of any usb devices that let you do this. It just sounds very prone to screw ups when you in the field recording and either you mix up the pairs/quads or misplace a card.

The only solutions I've seen are very clunky. One is a pci-express card that goes inside your machine that fits 2-4 cards. The other is a SSD box with a esata port on the back. Especially for in the field, the esata enclosure seems like option that will lead to the least amount of problems (wish it had 4 slots). The last thing I want to do is have to carry a full size pc in the field and then have to open up the inside of it just to swap out CF cards.

Card Reader (http://www.lycom.com.tw/Boot%20Reader.htm)
Internal Micro SATA UDD from Addonics (http://addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/msuddus.asp)
CR2T - Compact Flash CF to 2.5? SATA Spanning / Mirroring Enclosure (http://www.sansdigital.com/compact-flash-storage/cr2t.html)

Do you know of any quad compact flash usb readers because that would be cool?...Hey Deke: You do not remove the CF cards from the XDR. Convergent Design turns on the FireWire port and you connect the XDR to your PC via that interface and you transfer the uncompressed 10 bit files in this manner. You could also just play out the uncompressed video via the HD-SDI port. I am willing to accept long transfer times in the field to be able to shoot uncompressed 10 bit for digital cinema origination. 128 GB CF cards are on the way. Ooops ! I wrote the un word again ! ;-)

No, we sure can't have everything.

The only one's I'd still really like to see are:

1. A Wavelet codec.
2. 10-bit log recording
3. The ability to mirror the slots on the Nanoflash

Best product of 2009 in my opinion.
I don't know about the XDR, but the NANO, as have been stated, have an SONY MPEG-2 processor. It makes MPEG-2.
rafael

Yes, I am aware of the Sont chipset, as I am aware of other chipests for h.264 and motionJpeg2k. And I realize that changing the unit would be impossible at this point. It's just wishful thinking.

...Hey Deke: You do not remove the CF cards from the XDR. Convergent Design turns on the FireWire port and you connect the XDR to your PC via that interface and you transfer the uncompressed 10 bit files in this manner.Bummer, I had a feeling that was the solution. Just stinks you have to take the unit out of service between offloading a mag. For us vfx guys though it's not the end of the world.

No, we sure can't have everything.

The only one's I'd still really like to see are:

1. A Wavelet codec.....Not possible.
2. 10-bit log recording.....Absolutely possible and probably inevitable. Once the Flash XDR goes uncompressed, then the HD-SDI input, which is inherently 10 bit bypasses the internal Sony Hardware MPEG 2 circuitry, therefore you would then have the additional option to go 10 bit in recording. The only caveate would be you are forced to capture uncompressed only. According to Convergent Design, the XDR has circuitry which down samples the 10 bit HD-SDI input signal to 8 bits, then feeds this re-sampled 8 bit signal into the XDR's/Nano's hardware Sony MPEG 2 encoding engine. Recording uncompressed simply by-passes this process and keeps the input HD-SDI signal prestine @ 10 bits.
3. The ability to mirror the slots on the Nanoflash...Totally possible. If you can Raid 0 those CF card slots then why not also Mirror them ?
Frankly, I see this unit as becoming an industry standard, if not as a primary recorder, then as an instant field backup for high-end productions. The guys on the steadicams, can't tie into a Codex or S.Two. This gives them a way to get high quality footage in a tiny package. Put the unit in a backpack or on a belt clip, and go to town.....Exactly. So do I. Even if the XDR cannot be programmed to capture video in compressed mode in Long GOP or I-Frame Intra at data rates higher than 295 Mbps, then by simply bypassing compression altogether and enabling the RS-422 interface, one now has an instant HDCAM SR capable (and resolution independent) field recorder capable of preserving HDCAM SR VTR data rate settings of 4:2:2 440 and 4:2:2 880 Mbps by simple virtue of being capable of uncompressed 10 bit recording as an option. Obviously the XDR will never be able to capture 4:4:4 uncompressed,

Best product of 2009 in my opinion....Yup. Definitely right. Best product of 2008 as well.

"Obviously the XDR will never be able to capture 4:4:4 uncompressed"

If someone is looking for 4:4:4 uncompressed, they are playing in the Big Leagues. And frankly those productions have budgets ending with capital "M's" and not "K's". There are already numerous options playing in that arena.

Hi Perrone:
Yeah. 4:4:4 is all the way ultra high end digital cinema origination.

I'm still trying to figure out why a steadicam operator can't use an S.two?

Aaron,

Because all the S.Two units I was aware of were rackmount, or deskside type units. I was unaware of the new OB-1 unit (is it shipping) as that seems useful and small enough to be mobile.

-P

I remember the ones that Fincher used on BButton & Zodiac we're pretty big on top of the Viper. The newer one I saw at NAB last year had shrunk considerably. I don't see why you couldn't use it anymore these days.

Exactly,

The smallest unit they have now seems to be the OB-1 at 6 pounds. I certainly wouldn't ask a Steadicam op to carry around a 15-25# camera and then ask to strap on a 20 pound recorder as well.

Fincher didn't use the S.two OB-1 on Viper with Steadicam in Zodiac or Benjamin Button? Hmmph. I thought he did. Nevermind then.

We are adding 180 Mbps Long-GOP in the next firmware release. We don't see a real need for uncompressed for 99% of the applications, including output to film.

We'll concede the other 1% to S.two, HDCAM SR or full-uncompressed capture boxes.

Cheers-

Hi Mike:
" We are adding 180 Mbps Long-GOP in the next firmware release. We don't see a real need for uncompressed for 99% of the applications, including output to film.

We'll concede the other 1% to S.two, HDCAM SR or full-uncompressed capture boxes.

Cheers- "


......Uhh Just a minute, please. What exactly do mean by writing this ? Are you saying you are not going to offer an uncompressed option for us XDR users ? Please clarify.

Respectfully,

Hi Mark-
Uncompressed is not on the roadmap for nanoFlash, still on the schedule for XDR, but I cannot give a delivery date.

However, I understand we both have issues with delivery dates...

Best-

Hi Mike:
OK, Thanks for the clarification. I will continue to wait patiently for that day. You just tell me where to send the check when the day arrives ;-)