In considering the judging of this (been discussing with a potential judge...), would the finalists be willing to provide a DVD copy of their long-form for the judge to view?

It would be more comfortable for the judge, viewing-wise, and it would be a better representation of your work to the judge. You would have about ten days to have it burned and mailed to me...for our international finalists, you could upload the file to my FTP site, and I would have this done on my end, assuming you can send me an MPEG-2 quicktime.

We have to have agreement by all 11 of you, or we can't do it this way....

Your files would still be hosted to the UWOL website as well. This would be for yours' and the judge's convenience only and would apply to half of you...

File it in the category of, "things you don't think of, one year in advance"---

I like this idea and you have my concurrence.

Chris S.

Meryem- This sounds OK by me, but now I’m a little confused. Will this mean we have two deadlines? One, the fifteenth (or is it now the 21st?), to upload to the UWOL server, and another ten days later for the DVD to arrive by mail (Nov 25 or Dec 1). Will you e-mail us a mailing address?

Also, what has been decided about the final file size? A test render of my 42 minutes is within the 180mb limit.

I also like the idea. I think the product would look much better. Bob

Hi Meryem, happy to provide MPEG2 for you via ftp....

Meryem- This sounds OK by me, but now I’m a little confused. Will this mean we have two deadlines? One, the fifteenth (or is it now the 21st?), to upload to the UWOL server, and another ten days later for the DVD to arrive by mail (Nov 25 or Dec 1). Will you e-mail us a mailing address?

Also, what has been decided about the final file size? A test render of my 42 minutes is within the 180mb limit.

Your regular deadline will remain the same...only the finalists will have to submit a DVD - since that is 11 people, that means about 5-6 of you will be moved onto the finalists' list, from which the judge will make the final evaluations. I will contact those people privately, during the week after your final upload.

Also, if the judge that I have in mind agrees to do it, we will be moving the announcement out about a week, so instead of annoucing on Dec. 1, it will probably take place a week from then - there is an essential reason for this...can't tell just yet.

Meryem, I am a bit confused. There are 11 of us left. We submit our Nov entries, then, do you pick the 5 finalists out of that group, and only the 5 finalists get to send a dvd? I thought all 11 of us were finalists. Bob

It will be the same as all other contests...I send about half of the submissions on to the outside judge...sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less, but that's roughly how it works out....

keep in mind that without a preliminary screening process, it would be very, very difficult to enlist outside judges. as it is, they spend many volunteer hours getting this done...

OK, when will you send upload information for submitting our final entry as I will be on travel Nov 15 - Nov 19th. Bob

Hi Meryem:

A DVD works well with me, if it comes to that.

Cat

I like the idea:

DVD or Blu Ray???

It is OK for me.

I have one question.
After discussions and comments on the last film-round, it will be tempting to make utterly corrections on the films before the DVD/MPEG2 production.
Will that be allowed?

no, no variations will be allowed based on feedback...you can make all the changes that you want after the contest is over...

OK, when will you send upload information for submitting our final entry as I will be on travel Nov 15 - Nov 19th. Bob

so Bob, I stepped over your question...having a bit of a challenge with the convergence of short and long form contests here!

i am thinking about a 200 mb limit on these files...if no one has any objections to that size, i'll go ahead and send around the uploading instructions...i've been a little bit fuzzy on this myself, mostly around the "number of players versus file size conundrum..."

but i think this file size will mean that this challenge will take up about the same bandwidth as our average short form, with this number of players.

if you have an old email from a shortform contest from this year, you can use that uploading password, it has not changed...otherwise, i'll get this sent 'round this week to all of you.

Oops,

I've just finished the final render to my entry: 33 minutes, 500 mb. If the 250 mb limit is official, I'm due in for some bit-rate tweaking.

Cat

Personally, I think we should stick with the 180MB limit that we’ve known about for a year, but you’re the boss. Functionally, I can make a substantially better looking file with a 250 MB limit but adding 20 MB going from 180 to 200 doesn’t add enough to make any appreciable difference. I can live with whatever you decide.

I upped it a bit based on the feedback in the other thread. Seems like 180mb was too much of a stretch. And I made that 180mb decision at the beginning of the year, before anyone, myself included, had ever compressed a file of this size for the web. I've made lots of longer than 22 minute videos by now...just never tried to make a web version...

...something in the water today...no one's happy with anything, least of all me!

let's make it 250mb then, will that please anyone? Bueller?

Sorry. I didn’t mean to imply that I’m unhappy at all. I’m not. The first thing I did when I read the 180MB rule last year was compress one hour of unedited video to see if I could do it. I could, so I’ve been OK with that limit all along. Just to be clear:

I am very happy and quite pleased with the new 250MB limit!
Thank-you for putting up with us irascible videomakers, Meryem!
(It is now safe to drink the water.)

i'm kinda having one of those days when everything feels like walking through quicksand in lead boots...sorry, peeps...

For what it is worth:

Meryem is at the helm of this forum and what she decides, goes. If the long form final file size has been decided to be 250 mb, then that is what I am attempting to do.

But just food for thought. If the short form 3 minute submissions are allotted a 60 mb file size, then linearly thinking, a 30 minute submission should realistically be allotted a 600 mb file size.

The 180 mb file size allotted for the works in progress submissions was based on the rule of thumb that these files would be 5 minutes of material. This would suggest that a 30 minute film would be allotted over 1 GB in file size.

Please know that I am neither whining nor complaining. I'm just a bit surprised. I currently have a 33 minute 428 x 240 final submission that after lots of work, have gotten it to 494 mb. I am currently working with technical support at Sorenson Media to help me with this. There seems to be a general consensus that 250 mb for a full-length film is very strict.

I will work at this until I have something to submit that will meet the requirements. I'm just a little disheartened that what that file might be is something sub-par to its potential. Ouch! After a full year, it comes to this.

Mike, I don't know what you are using, but you are a super jock to squeeze 60 minutes of HD film into less than 180 mb.

I nope I'm not in trouble for speaking out like this! I'll keep after it!

Cat

I would LOVE to see all the films in their FULL glory, as uncompressed as you want to make them (ok -within reason). To that end it might be great if someone volunteered to accept DVD's of each of the final contestant's film and put them together in a compilation to then send out to share with the participants.

Hey, since I'm suggesting I'd be willing to be that volunteer! (All of this assumes this is ok with everyone, especially Meryem since this is her contest.)

Chris S.

I'm not taking any of this ill, Cat, in fact, I don't pretend to know what is a reasonable file size, having never done this type of compression myself.

I'm just doing my best not to tax Chris' servers...with the number of people dropping out, (meaning more bandwidth for the ones remaining...), I'm almost tempted to set bit rate parameters, audio parameters, etc., instead of file sizes, so that everyone is of equal quality, and damn the torpedoes, make it as big as it needs to be...setting quality parameters instead of size. this will require a bit of honor system...

what do y'all think of that idea?

I would LOVE to see all the films in their FULL glory, as uncompressed as you want to make them (ok -within reason). To that end it might be great if someone volunteered to accept DVD's of each of the final contestant's film and put them together in a compilation to then send out to share with the participants.

Hey, since I'm suggesting I'd be willing to be that volunteer! (All of this assumes this is ok with everyone, especially Meryem since this is her contest.)

Chris S.

it's a lovely suggestion - but you have no idea how hard this is, you'll be converting PAL, working with all of these different formats, etc...believe me, I have done this on a single DVD, with multiple UWOL files, and it is a huge time suck, more than you think...

not saying i'm against it, mind you, just telling you about the parts that you are not thinking about, you'll need files uploaded via ftp, they will be absolutely huge, and it will take many hours just to acquire them, and sometimes data can be lost in the transfer.

et cetera....

Thank you Chris, that sounds like a lot of work you are offering to do.

May I offer up one more thought concerning the long form file size? It was only a few days ago that this was yet to be determined with no hard and fast rules to operate by, so I would like to submit one more idea to think about.

The finals are to be within the range of 20 min - 90 min. Should the file size limits be on a graduated scale then since the upper limit is over 4 times the minimum time requirement? If there is one file size requirement, how much more difficult it would be if one entry was actually 90 min when others were at the 20 min requirement.

If the standard has been 60 mb for a 3 minute entry, then should the long form requirements be based on this standard multiplied by every 3 minutes of material? For example, by this rule of thumb a 20 minute entry would have a 400 mb size limit, a 30 min entry would have a 600 mb size limit and a 90 min entry would have a 1800 mb size limit.

This seems fair to me and results in a common standard for both short and long form. From what people have been suggesting, the long form finals this year will average around 30 minutes with at least one closer to 20 minutes and others closer to 40 minutes. Can the band width handle 9 or so entries averaging 500 - 600 mb?

Thank you for considering this option.

Cat

I didn’t mean to be so insensitive to the needs of HD. Of course my SD files are much smaller to begin with. I’m sorry y’all are having compression problems. Have you tried Mike Beckett’s suggestion? First use your NLE to output a master file with smaller frame dimensions and then use the compression software to compress that. Best of luck.

See post #11:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/uwol-challenge-our-newest-contest/466804-compression-issues.html

it's a lovely suggestion - but you have no idea how hard this is, you'll be converting PAL, working with all of these different formats, etc...believe me, I have done this on a single DVD, with multiple UWOL files, and it is a huge time suck, more than you think...

not saying i'm against it, mind you, just telling you about the parts that you are not thinking about, you'll need files uploaded via ftp, they will be absolutely huge, and it will take many hours just to acquire them, and sometimes data can be lost in the transfer.

et cetera....

Hmmm... maybe I should just offer to accept DVD's via mail and copy and disseminate them to the players? Thanks for the heads-up Meryem, I guess I was once again looking in the shallow end of the pool not realizing it was 10x as deep as it looked.

Chris

I'm almost tempted to set bit rate parameters, audio parameters, etc., instead of file sizes, so that everyone is of equal quality, and damn the torpedoes, make it as big as it needs to be...setting quality parameters instead of size. this will require a bit of honor system...

what do y'all think of that idea?

Oh PLEASE! Let us seriously dialog about this! I think that is an awesome idea, if Chris can handle the load. The bottom line for me is my final HD render of a 33 minute video is 45 Gigs and that was already with the sorenson 3 compression. Trimming that down to 460 mb is as far as I can take it I think. Even going lower on bit rates doesn't make the file any smaller. If the 250 mb restriction stands, I might be out of luck... on a technicality not effort. Setting restrictions on bit rates and audio and not size would be such a relief!

Cat

Well, I just did a test render of my almost Final entry. I renderd my SD 29 min. 30 sec. Galapagos video in MPEG-4, with a frame size of 428 x 240, and it came in at 134 mb. YES. All dressed-up and ready to go to the dance.

I agree with Cat. If she can't get HD compression down she should be able to send a DVD in. I would hate to see her get disqualified because of a compression problem. Bob

Sweet! Way to go Bob! Looks like you and Mike have crossed the finished line! Nicely done! As for me, I'm sitting here 10 feet from the goal line waiting to know what to do.

All the best!

Cat

Catherine- Did you see my post #25 above? I really think that may solve your problem. Although I have uploaded a file I haven’t finished yet. It is more insurance of getting something in while I try to deal with a few problems (like getting the URL of the UWOL Challenge website wrong in the credits!- sheesh). I’m trying to fix the problems and then upload a corrected file before the deadline. Fingers crossed that we can all make this work…

Sorry to reply so late - I have been out of it for some time now due to computers crashing round me.

This thread started out as a question for long form players and has developed into something else which at this point I will leave to all of you to work out.

However, to answer the question re DVD's - even if it is purely academic at this stage as no one here knows who will make the top five - I am happy in principle with the DV idea with a proviso - that if all else fails I can send a data DVD (via courier) to you to load onto your computer and to cut to DVD for me.

The reason: Firstly I have not had much success to date with sending a movie via ftp - seems to get lost somewhere in the ether so there is no guarantee I will succeed this time especially with such a big file; secondly, I cannot for some reason cut a 16:9 DVD for playing in a DVD player (I have tried on numerous occasions but it always turns out with the sides cuts off even though every possible setting I can find is set to 16:9.) and thirdly because I haven't had time to go into this problem I can't guarantee that I will be able to solve it within ten days after all this is over.

Marj

Hi Meryem:

Is it possible we will have a final decision today as to the long form final format requirements?

Thank you,

Cat

Also, Is the deadline strictly on the 15th, or do we have a window of a few days starting on the 15th?

Good afternoon,


to busy to go into any length here, working on the final edits and add ons at this time, If we consider there are going to be quite different lengths of various projects it does in fact make sense to have the parameters be set in bit rates as apposed to a set gigahertz value.
I can see I maight not even get submitted if it gets to complicated.

I liked the idea of sending a blu ray or dvd in.

As for posting on the uwolchallenge web site, just tell me what to do!!

Add on: I rendered my first 30 minutes (I have more to add yet) and after reducing the bit rate I ended up with 600 mb.

HUmmmmm???

I cannot for some reason cut a 16:9 DVD for playing in a DVD player (I have tried on numerous occasions but it always turns out with the sides cuts off even though every possible setting I can find is set to 16:9.)
Marj, if you can't make the DVD in correct format, I'll be happy to help you. I only shoot/edit and make 16:9 DVD's all the time. (So far I am only doing DV and not HDV myself, but it shouldn't matter)

Thanks so much for your offer Tronde , however, at this point in time no one knows who will make the top five. I am still trying to get my film finished never mind up to par. :}

just sent round an email with final instructions...look for it, and shoot me an email if it doesn't get to you within the hour...

i'll be out working most of today, so you can always email each other, if you missed the email and forward it on to each other...i don't want anyone to miss out on precious time because the next four days are packed very tightly for me, until Wednesday.

Mike or Mike,
Thanks so much for posting (or pointing to) compression suggestions, which I had not seen, being away from a computer for two weeks. Do either of you have an answer to the frame size vs file size question. I have read online that the frame size has nothing to do with the final file size. I have found that to be true sometimes, but at other times there seems to be a file size reduction proportional to the frame size reduction. Puzzling.

Hi Steve. I’m not sure why it works. My tests with PP2 and Squeeze support Mike’s findings. Perhaps the scaling and compression algorithms are more efficient when not used in tandem? (Marj is right. This thread has taken a left turn. Sorry Meryem.)

Following Mike's directions, I was able to convert my 50 minute video to a 257MB file that looks and sounds good. The only changes I made were with the Quicktime part, which would have taken 24-30 hours to render. By using Adobe Media Encoder set to Windows Media 9, and mimicing Mike's settings, the product (750MB) was done in two hours (with two passes). By taking that to Wondershare Platinum (US$36.00), I was able to get a 257MB .mov file in another hour. If anyone wants details, e-mail me at oporornis@yahoo.com, or I will post them if there is larger interest.